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01:11:32 <LOOP-HOG> Am I the only one who hates CSS?
01:17:54 <LOOP-HOG> both inside of Comcast and  emails from paypal misformat for me.
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05:57:48 <PoppaVic> Morn'
06:27:50 <madwork> greetz 2 PoppaVic from da Mad Krew!
06:27:59 <PoppaVic> hiya, mad
06:28:18 <PoppaVic> Too many angles on this damned project, I swear
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06:55:27 <PoppaVic> Too bad arke got too damned busy.. madwork: chances are, this is at least a 2 man project.. I don't see much way around it. There is a huge issue with cpu/platform identification.
06:57:20 <madwork> That sucks.
06:58:03 <PoppaVic> yeah.. It looks to me like you need about 20-30% input from the user, and 70-80% reliance on shit like uname
06:58:29 <PoppaVic> you can't tell what assembler is really used, or the cpu otherwise.
06:58:55 <PoppaVic> ..I've been TRYING to test for progs or funcs or macros that might help in identifying, but it's a mess and a long-shot
07:00:22 <PoppaVic> The hillarious part is.. 'machine' and 'uname' are not entirely portable AND there outputs just don't cross-match, let alone echo C info (or asm)
07:02:09 <PoppaVic> If I had access to a platform/compiler farm, I'd be interested in collecting the output of those two per machine..
07:04:22 <PoppaVic> So, it looks to me like... *sigh* We need tool(s) to create tools.
07:05:23 <PoppaVic> I was interested to note that not even "gcc -S" writes a comment/line explaining what the asm was generated FOR
07:06:15 <sproingie> still looking for the universal ABI library?
07:06:38 <PoppaVic> hmm.. Not really "looking for".. Mostly identification issues
07:07:31 <sproingie> fingerprinting which compiler made what binary?
07:07:39 <PoppaVic> sproingie: for example, I *know* I can look under a menu-item and learn my exact release and cpu.. But nothing else will report it. Further, what regs are used? which are free? what are their names and sizes?
07:08:04 <sproingie> should be pretty easy for c++ ... for c, it'll take some real quirks identification
07:08:11 <PoppaVic> These sort of issues have really iked me for about 20 years.
07:08:31 <PoppaVic> sproingie: C++?? Why would C++ know more about it/them?
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07:08:51 <PoppaVic> hi, herk
07:09:20 <sproingie> PoppaVic: a c++ compiler just tends to compile in more libs that change subtly every version
07:09:32 <PoppaVic> hmm
07:09:35 <sproingie> PoppaVic: makes it easier to identify which compiler created it
07:09:48 <JasonWoof> mornin' PoppaVic 
07:09:52 <sproingie> sounds like you're after more low-level info than vendor strings tho
07:09:58 <PoppaVic> well, shoot. I don't recall enough C++ to even attempt such a chore.
07:10:05 <PoppaVic> what's the latest, jas?
07:10:29 <sproingie> sounds like you're mostly after abi info ... i think the only safe thing is to disassemble the code
07:11:08 <PoppaVic> Right, sproingie... Vendor/platform is important (and always freaky), but w/o the ABI in a mechanized-fashion, yer really kicked.
07:11:15 <sproingie> getting register usage info would be something a reverse engineering disassembler might give you
07:11:27 <sproingie> basically you're looking for a reverse engineering tool
07:11:32 <PoppaVic> nono
07:11:51 <sproingie> you might not be using it for reverse engineering, but that's probably still the tool you need
07:12:04 <PoppaVic> we want to be able to clearly identify cpu, machine, host/platform.
07:12:18 <PoppaVic> lemme look at gdb - maybe IT has a clue
07:12:31 <sproingie> oh heck, the architecture is right in the ELF spec
07:12:41 <PoppaVic> ahh, back to elf ;-)
07:12:41 <sproingie> ELF writes a different magic number per architecture
07:13:06 <PoppaVic> now try it on a Mac, or Powerbook, or some other non-elf sys
07:13:06 <sproingie> the exact model of the CPU you'll only get if it uses instructions for that model
07:13:38 <sproingie> well if it's mach-o, you've already got your question answered
07:13:50 <PoppaVic> sure, you'd need that "human-input"
07:13:59 <sproingie> no, you need a database of file formats
07:14:03 <PoppaVic> I agree
07:14:43 <JasonWoof> I finished my colorblind image filter... oh crap, my webserver is down
07:15:39 <sproingie> colorblind filter ... does it render an image as a person with red/green colorblindness might see it?
07:16:22 * sproingie deals with chinese techs pretty regularly, they tend to get annoyed at alert messages in red
07:16:30 <PoppaVic> I would imagine that underline/bold/dim/inverse would help
07:16:48 <sproingie> text in red to a chinese person is like text in green to us.  it's like a "positive" color
07:16:57 <sproingie> says "warm" more than "warning" 
07:17:29 <sproingie> i tend to use bright yellow backgrounds for major alerts, and bold and/or italic otherwise
07:18:21 <PoppaVic> oy, shit yeah - given a decent engine you can add size, font and italics
07:18:28 <sproingie> my ANS compliance table is probably a mess for colorblind people
07:18:33 <sproingie> it's an angry fruit salad of colors
07:18:54 <sproingie> http://forthworks.com/sproingie/ans-compliance.html
07:20:18 <PoppaVic> hmmmm... man 1 file... YOu might have something there... It won't help with ABI, but it's handy to know of
07:20:42 <sproingie> yes, uses /etc/magic 
07:20:52 <PoppaVic> right (or nearby)
07:22:45 <PoppaVic> brb
07:23:42 <JasonWoof> sproingie: yeh, it averages the green and red values in each pixel, so you can't distinguish red and green
07:23:49 <JasonWoof> but it maintains brightness quite well
07:26:07 <JasonWoof> and there's still some hues of course, but just two: yellow and blue
07:26:54 <JasonWoof> I understand that some form of colorblindnes is quite common, like 1 in 10 males
07:27:14 <JasonWoof> and that at least 90% of the colorblind people, have the same form of red/green colorblindness
07:29:00 <JasonWoof> anyway, my filter just works on images, you can send an image of any size through it (so long as netpbm can read it.) for other stuff just take a screenshot and send that through
07:29:28 <sproingie> 1 in 9 i'm told
07:30:36 <sproingie> tho a good percentage of them have it pretty mild, only fails the color vision book tests and never notices it otherwise
07:32:18 * sproingie does have an app that hilights red as a warning and green as "good", but it's also backed up by a bunch of text to that fact too
07:32:44 <PoppaVic> yep, it should
07:33:09 <PoppaVic> the red/green colors are almost more useful than the international icons
07:33:20 <sproingie> well, not universally
07:33:21 <PoppaVic> BUT, they presume color-sight
07:34:24 <sproingie> in china, red has positive connotations.  tho i suspect most chinese who actually work in tech and thus get a lot of contact with the rest of the world are probably used to the "red == stop" connotation
07:35:34 <PoppaVic> yes, the chinee are sorta' odd that way.. Tis true, of course: defining a config-pt would help (and don't talk to me of locale)
07:35:50 <sproingie> what's really nuts is that red, yellow, AND green all have those connotations.  tho yellow is more "strong", so it works ok for warning
07:36:11 <PoppaVic> wtf do the chinee do for traffic-lights?
07:36:22 <sproingie> symbols i think
07:36:27 <PoppaVic> oy, geezus
07:36:37 <sproingie> not letters, more like arrows
07:36:42 <PoppaVic> That's whack
07:36:58 <PoppaVic> but then, asians also see "white" as "Death" - not weddings
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07:39:53 <sproingie> hm, seeing some page saying green is considered a "negative" color in taiwan tho.  my co worker in taiwan says this isn't really the case
07:40:33 <sproingie> apparently mainland china does use the same color traffic lights as everyone
07:41:08 <sproingie> tho at least in shanghai, traffic laws are more of a vague suggestion than anything else
07:41:43 <sproingie> sounds like clement st in san francisco.  which coincidentally is a "chinatown suburb"
07:46:07 * sproingie goes back to debugging ans loop words in rf ... fun
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08:15:34 <PoppaVic> brb
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08:28:10 <PoppaVic> hmm.. I'm beginning to conclude that asm/whatever needs to do the extra work.
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12:36:33 <JasonWoof> ahhhhh rain
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12:41:56 <arke> yay rain
12:43:27 <slava> hi all
12:45:51 <JasonWoof> the rain was nice because now the air by fan is blowing in the window directly at me actually cools me off a little
12:46:19 <slava> JasonWoof, are you Herkamire?
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12:46:48 <JasonWoof> slava: yes
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12:53:47 <slava> what's cooking?
13:04:50 <JasonWoof> reinstalling linux on my server
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15:11:46 <JasonWoof> oh good lord...
15:11:54 <tathi> ?
15:12:03 <JasonWoof> my server just shut of eth0
15:12:13 <JasonWoof> _while running off the gentoo boot CD_
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16:21:41 <arke> heh
16:21:52 <slava> arke, i read in the logs you're writing some kind of vm
16:22:26 <arke> slava: nope
16:22:31 <arke> good night!
16:22:38 <slava> or was that poppavic?
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20:55:14 <alexander_> re..
20:55:30 <slava> hi
20:56:04 <alexander_> sup guys?
21:06:32 <alexander_> anyone awake that has done a lot of structured I/O with Forth?
21:07:06 <slava> what is structured i/o?
21:16:47 <alexander_> like, frames of data
21:16:58 <slava> well, factor can read and write symbolic expressions
21:17:11 <alexander_> I'm trying to do synchronization with an I/O frame.. but my code looks like shit
21:17:26 <slava> i'm not sure what a 'frame' is
21:18:00 <alexander_> example of a byte stream coming over a serial link: [Marker][Frame Size][Frame Data][Marker]
21:18:21 <slava> oh ok
21:18:34 <alexander_> I have crap like this:
21:18:49 <alexander_> : read-byte-when-available
21:18:49 <alexander_>     5 for 
21:18:49 <alexander_>         if byte-available
21:18:49 <alexander_>             read-byte
21:18:49 <alexander_>             true
21:18:50 <alexander_>             r> drop exit
21:18:52 <alexander_>         then
21:18:54 <alexander_>         1000 sleep-ms
21:18:56 <alexander_>     nxt
21:18:58 <alexander_>     io-timeout
21:19:00 <alexander_>     false
21:19:02 <alexander_> ;
21:19:06 <alexander_> : wait-for-byte
21:19:08 <alexander_>     read-byte-when-evailable
21:19:10 <alexander_>     if
21:19:11 <slava> don't flood
21:19:12 <alexander_>         = if
21:19:14 <alexander_>             true
21:19:16 <alexander_>         else
21:19:17 <slava> use a pastebin
21:19:18 <alexander_>             io-error
21:19:20 <alexander_>             false
21:19:22 <alexander_>         then
21:19:24 <alexander_>     else
21:19:26 <alexander_>         drop false
21:19:28 <alexander_>     then
21:19:30 <alexander_> ;
21:19:32 <alexander_> : send-command
21:19:36 <alexander_>     dup ->
21:19:38 <alexander_>     ~ wait-for-byte
21:19:38 <slava> oh god you're a real moron
21:19:40 <alexander_> ;
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21:19:42 <alexander_> sorry for the long paste
21:19:44 <alexander_> already flooded.
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