00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.07.18 02:38:37 --- quit: YoyoFreeBSD (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 02:57:53 --- join: YoyoFreeBSD (~yoyofreem@222.90.3.158) joined #forth 03:06:21 --- quit: YoyoFreeBSD (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:08:27 --- join: YoyoFreeBSD (~yoyofreem@222.90.3.158) joined #forth 03:14:50 --- quit: YoyoFreeBSD () 03:25:06 --- join: YoyoFreeB (~yoyofreem@222.90.3.158) joined #forth 03:25:06 --- quit: YoyoFreeB (Remote closed the connection) 03:29:20 --- join: YoyoFreeB (~yoyofreem@222.90.3.158) joined #forth 03:37:56 --- quit: YoyoFreeB () 04:01:08 --- join: YoyoFreeBSD (~root@222.90.3.158) joined #forth 04:01:27 --- quit: YoyoFreeBSD (Client Quit) 04:10:46 --- join: YoyoFreeBSD (~root@222.90.3.158) joined #forth 04:19:13 --- join: tathi (~josh@tathi.bronze.supporter.pdpc) joined #forth 04:20:07 --- quit: YoyoFreeBSD ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.10") 04:51:56 --- join: YoyoFreeBSD (~root@222.90.3.158) joined #forth 04:54:01 --- join: PoppaVic (~pete@0-1pool47-68.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 04:54:11 Mornin' 04:54:51 hi 04:55:26 What's the happs, this rainy, ugly morn? 04:56:22 not much. 05:05:59 waiting for crc to wake up....waiting for crc to wake up... 05:07:33 why's that? 05:14:13 I'm making this commercial application, right? (Which is why I've been busy, got a deadline) 05:14:23 anyway, language etc. was my choice, and I chose rf+allegro 05:14:31 problem is, allegro refuses to start 05:15:03 ah 06:14:06 I think you need something more stable than rf+allegro. *cough* 06:14:48 so or so, you need to write the whole api for sound. ;-) 06:22:01 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 06:33:03 arrgh.. *sigh* Man, this project is growing some LONG, tough thorns 07:00:36 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:07:44 --- join: sproingie (foobar@64-121-15-14.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 07:30:45 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 07:32:29 --- join: PoppaVic (~pete@0-1pool46-200.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 07:32:49 --- join: madwork (~madgarden@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 07:33:00 * PoppaVic sighs 07:33:03 Hi mad 07:37:59 mornin, pops 07:38:23 * sproingie is getting busy writing ANS words for retroforth 07:38:30 hi sp ;-) I'm getting static from the lisper-c's this day ;-) 07:38:39 or, more like watching everyone paste them at me :) 07:38:48 Cool. 07:39:08 ans never thrilled me, but it's at least "A" standard 07:39:10 still missing a lot of looping words, probably just missed them somewhere 07:39:29 i don't like ans either, but it helps for porting stuff 07:39:50 --- join: tathi (~josh@tathi.bronze.supporter.pdpc) joined #forth 07:39:51 well, not really.. TOo many gaps 07:40:16 hell, afaik, ans std is also older than a lot of gcc's 07:40:29 ans is from 94 07:40:45 yeah.. SO, at least 6+5=11 years old 07:41:06 I can't believe they haven't had rethinks since 07:41:31 sure they have. like colorforth 07:41:38 or for the less radically inclined, retroforth 07:41:39 Is there even a new committee OUT there? 07:41:55 if there is, let me know, i'll get the cyanide for their coffee 07:41:57 what is "retroforth"? Mostly fig or what? 07:42:14 it's its own thing 07:42:22 well, why "retro"? 07:42:33 largely like colorforth, but without colors 07:42:59 uses cf's control flow constructs like proper tail recursion and comparison-conditional words 07:43:23 e.g. "spaces" in rf: : spaces 0; 32 emit 1- spaces ; 07:43:27 hmm.. the former is waay past me, the latter just confuses me 07:43:50 "retro" i dunno ... ask tom novelli, he created it 07:44:03 i think because it harkens "back to a simpler time" 07:44:10 we are still back 20+ years ago, to simpliciy, it seems - ok 07:44:52 The biggy with FIG was mostly that the only prims were those you NEEDED to bolt to the cpu. All else was "hi-level" 07:45:34 rf is a lot like that too. just a different set of prims 07:45:45 nowadays, I think they need to twist that.. But, that's anothe issue 07:46:28 tail recursion is nothing hard to get. a word can call itself without a special RECURSE word, that's all 07:46:35 ahhhhh 07:46:46 I dunno if I see that as a 'plus' 07:47:11 it turns into a jump if it's the last call before an exit word, as opposed to pushing the return stack 07:47:36 sure, how it forms is one issue; the "RECURSE" is easy to search for, too 07:47:58 why would you need to search for recurse? it's not some weird theoretical construct 07:48:01 it's just a jump 07:48:18 grep, dude - searching thru code 07:48:30 poor cs professors and worse languages have turned recursion into a scary mysterious thing 07:48:48 yeah, recursion is fairly easy - and usually misused 07:49:09 if it isn't tail recursion, it's probably being misused 07:49:29 i admit to abusing recursion in some of my perl and python to "fix args and call again" 07:49:31 all recursion is self, or it ain't recursion 07:49:39 there's mutual recursion 07:49:45 oh, bah 07:50:27 a calls b calls [goto zero] is just recursion 07:50:36 parsers and lexers often mutually recurse. again, it's just a jump 07:50:57 not really, recursion is also state 07:51:13 that's non-tail recursion 07:51:16 args+call+state: recurse 07:51:48 sproingie: in forth, I fail to see how you can ID the diff, since the stack is the stack, and there are no proto 07:51:50 that can sometimes get mysterious, but i still largely attribute it to poor teaching 07:52:18 no idea how rf does it. might peephole optimize to see if the next op is exit 07:52:47 i dont even know if it eliminates tailcalls or just recursion 07:52:50 i think it's just recursion 07:52:51 actually, I think ; looks back and patches the opcode if it's a call. 07:52:53 still sounds like ivory-tower-noise 07:52:55 --- join: JasonWoof (~jason@Herkamire.student.supporter.pdpc) joined #forth 07:52:55 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 07:53:06 PoppaVic: the result of poor teaching 07:53:21 "ivory tower" my ass. someone told you it was big and scary 07:53:36 "teaching"? heh... Dude, you got me id'd wrong ;-) 07:53:53 monads and arrows are ivory tower noise. tail recursion is no more than goto with a label 07:54:11 then a goto is what it needs to be 07:54:32 a haskell hacker would tell me monads are simple 07:54:36 I do presume you mean "current function"/local goto 07:54:41 my mom would tell me functions are ivory tower 07:55:33 naw, tail calls are simply goto with args. since forth has no applicative args, it's just a goto, period 07:55:41 or.. perhaps you just mean a relative, local branch w/i a word? 07:55:45 ahhh 07:57:04 i think the problem with stateful recursion is that it forces you to think inductively. not a problem for linear recursion, but when you start recursing through a tree, it can get really evil 07:59:02 recursion can be quite evil. So can goto, but at least restricts the latter hard. 07:59:04 i don't think the brain is really wired for mathematical inductions 07:59:46 otoh, recursion-solutions can often prove quite elegant... You need to watch for those sneaky "worst cases" 08:00:43 anyway, i'd hardly call chuck moore an ivory tower egghead, and colorforth insists on using recursion instead of loops 08:01:26 ahhhhh 08:01:46 cf is a bit too bare for me tho. doesn't even have strings 08:01:57 yeah, cf is a bit extreme. 08:02:04 just writing hello world is pretty painful 08:03:31 I think about 1/3..3/4 of programming crap is mostly terminology. I *swear* folks invent it as they roll along. 08:04:05 after reading a lot of CS theory papers, i have to agree 08:04:06 I've seen this in network-code 08:04:19 the notation in CS papers is often invented on the spot, and never documented at all 08:04:34 ..took me WEEKS to ascertan there was no "stack" for tcp/ip 08:04:49 they're using "stack" in a conventional sense 08:04:57 no 08:05:02 layers are stacked on top of each other 08:05:06 they are using it like cooks & cakes 08:05:17 right. really conventional, as in english 08:05:23 "layer" would have settled it early and easy 08:05:33 stacks have layers 08:05:42 so do Parfait ;-) 08:05:51 * PoppaVic flashes on "Shrek" 08:05:54 i find it ironic that you're talking about the *english language* having "appropriated" the word stack somehow 08:06:30 well, since "a stack" in asm, C and the rest of the universe was well settled long ago, yeah 08:07:03 m-w says stack comes from old norse 08:07:06 It's just a poor torque on a word 08:07:18 some vikings would like to have a word with you about your use of the word "stack" 08:07:31 if the word doesn't associate well, it's a BAD choice. 08:07:39 it associates just fine 08:07:44 sorry 08:08:01 would you prefer they had "7 layer OSI model-of-things-put-on-top-of-other-things"? 08:08:09 oh, please 08:08:45 "layer": a module that filters out what it recognizes or passes it further on. (boom, done) 08:08:55 yes, and what do you do with layers? 08:09:23 I'd expect the silly-buggers to affect a context or global change. 08:09:42 and this is a more accessible metaphor than "stack" 08:09:42 Which is usually true of cakes as well 08:09:49 yep 08:09:59 whatever 08:10:19 every "layer" is a filter of sorts. How complex is that? 08:10:39 you could even say that these layers were "stacked" on top of each other 08:11:23 you might, but they are (collectively) not a "stack" - and they are not treated or documented as such 08:12:03 I _might_ say "Forth is merely an interpreter", too 08:12:22 technically they're more like containers. i suppose if you were russian, you could call it the TCP/IP matrushka 08:12:27 It'd be wrong, but Slop is legit. 08:12:38 would probably be a little more accessable metaphor to the average russian too 08:13:18 you can jump in here anytime, tathi 08:15:25 well, the original TCP RFC says it's designed to fit into a "layered hierarchy of protocols" 08:16:19 hierarchy implies tree. which i guess it is 08:16:35 and...rfc1180 says layers, with a little ascii diagram, and then goes on to call it the protocol stack. 08:16:41 I thought it was pretty clear. 08:16:53 "graph" would be nice. but OSI and tcp/ip are arranged as a stack 08:17:21 just ignore the ICMP that sorta wedges into IP, and ARP that stands off to the side 08:17:29 yeah :) 08:18:02 ARP's a separate application protocol, it just never gets above layer 3 ... i guess the only black sheep is ICMP 08:18:13 i think they just consider ICMP a "mode" of IP these days 08:18:16 yeah, it was after reading some decent texts and staring at a lot of code when I realized they didn't mean what I was familiar with (by that term) 08:19:06 I dunno... maybe... How many of you guys have taken tech-writing courses? 08:19:33 Most subjects have their own terminology -- I just figure that you're going to have to adjust when you're learning something new. 08:19:42 not me. 08:19:47 They are a bitch to schedule for, but they can be interesting 08:19:53 not I, squawked the geek 08:20:30 I tend to think my documentation-writing skills are fairly good, but I don't have much to back that up. 08:20:43 well, near as I can tell: the average programmer can't write diddly, documents worse, and technically his skills are minimal. 08:21:07 I am not talking code now, I'm talking docs/comments/tutorials. 08:21:35 ..And, Bog knows: I too have to be seriously cognizant of "audience". 08:21:44 i'd agree. the average programmer is often forced to do this chore, then gets a lot of shit every time he does it 08:22:19 i remember reading a book called "The Inmates are Running the Asylum", where the author just slags off and insults programers on UI design every chance he gets 08:22:30 it seems like everybody has a different set of definitions for terms, so you're going to be somewhat in trouble whatever you do. 08:22:34 well, there is really no way around it... THe "artist" is the one that really MUST "document" his art... Or trust someone to explain it clearly 08:22:40 and i thought "the programmers didn't want to write the UI, and they wrote your fucking code. a little respect" 08:22:49 A good glossary seems to help a lot. 08:22:50 yeah, it's always true... Coders want to code. 08:23:17 sproingie: you really can't live that way 08:23:32 hmm, yeah, I'm not so much of a coder. more into the learning/teaching aspect of things. 08:23:35 UNLESS you write "black box" code 08:24:05 PoppaVic: normally i just ignore it. 08:24:15 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:24:43 See.. I see this sorta' thing all the time in ##C "you don't need to know", and I resented it in school, and expect more from #forth.. I really do. 08:24:53 * sproingie writes pretty weird UI's himself, but if someone wants better, they can hire someone else to do it, or they can wait the extra 2 weeks while I work on just UI issues 08:25:22 UI's are not that tough, if you follow several docs and presume the user is a chimp. 08:25:24 same goes for docs. i wrote the implementation, expect me to describe implementation 08:25:32 err...what "you don't need to know" thing? 08:25:38 UI's are tough because you can't satisfy everyone 08:25:43 --- join: Raystm2 (~vircuser@adsl-68-93-122-184.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 08:25:46 well, you can doc of "assorted levels" - I generally code for "programmers" 08:26:02 my UIs are for web apps that have to display a LOT of data, but keep the UI available. therefore i tend to write very minimal looking ones 08:26:12 UIs are tough because good ways of making UIs are unfarmilliar to almost all users 08:26:18 lots of elements that get replaced by others dynamically, etc 08:26:30 tathi: you mean to tell me you never had a prof that used "you don't need to know"??? I had it IN school, and I still see it today. 08:26:53 you can usually spot my apps across the room tho. two panes dividing the screen left and right, and a very narrow strip of UI on top 08:27:02 ..and, PAYING to hear it was the absolute WORST insult. 08:27:14 PoppaVic: nope. 08:27:27 PoppaVic: "you don't need to know" from a professor usually means "i don't know and don't want to admit it" 08:27:30 Though I never went to an actual school until I got to college. 08:27:35 windowed/paned/pull-down? ncurses 08:27:43 professors usually revel in expounding on things they do know 08:27:45 sproingie: I agree 08:27:46 that's why they're professors 08:27:46 sproingie: yeah, my profs were pretty good about admitting they didn't know stuff. 08:28:00 and pointing us to someone who might know 08:28:01 I would have enjoyed "See me after class..." 08:28:08 i did have professors do that 08:28:22 they were so rare, I gave up decades ago 08:28:34 i remember a incident in grade school that really embarrassed me then, but i'm really wowed by it now 08:29:15 oh, and my infamous prof declaiming: "Please do not change the way I pronounce your name.." (umm? WHAT???) 08:29:19 i asked a teacher what this button on her calculator did, she said it was the square root button. i asked how it worked, and she started in, said "I don't know, let's ask mr soandso" (the math teacher) 08:29:43 we walked into his class and he explained to me in front ofthe class the square root algorithm on the blackboard 08:29:46 lord help us all 08:30:07 nice :) 08:30:28 Never seen it, I guesstimate 08:30:31 that would NEVER happen in today's schools 08:30:46 no. Today they'd say "buy a battery" 08:31:18 a nice teacher might google for something and tell me the next day if she remembered 08:31:33 --- join: Raystm2_ (~vircuser@adsl-68-95-254-205.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 08:31:40 interrupt a class? holy cow, you'd get disciplined for that 08:31:45 A GOOD teacher would suggest it, offer credit and help you AFTER class 08:31:58 well this was my english teacher 08:32:07 hardly the one to offer math assignments 08:32:13 ahh, a NS for the issue 08:32:31 ok, what's NS? 08:32:40 This is Sooooo why I'd like to see a decent language 08:32:45 non sequitur 08:33:01 oh come on crc should be awake by now 08:33:02 grr 08:33:04 the decent language bit sounded rather NS ... explain? 08:33:11 asking the history-prof why the politicans do.. 08:33:25 arke: I assume you can call other libs, just not allegro? 08:33:32 i learned programming with logo, which is really just lisp with a friendlier face 08:33:39 sproingie: it's my "grail", between autoshit-replacement and a core vm/lang 08:33:40 i'd call that a great teaching language 08:33:52 get people learning logo with quakebots instead of turtle graphics 08:34:17 I recall logo, prefer lego and neither solves the issues ;-) 08:35:06 gotta get changed and get to work ... 08:35:10 later 08:35:22 anyway.. no biggie.. I like C and forth, but want something under/between 08:35:36 --- join: genoobie (~genoobie@pool-71-241-167-74.buff.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 08:35:46 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:35:49 hey all...any open firmware gurus here? 08:36:04 see #openbios 08:36:11 genoobie: whatcha trying to do? 08:36:27 well...I've got a G4 powermac 08:36:38 and there's a bootloader built in to OSX called BootX 08:36:46 powerbooks are fun... Very painful porting 08:37:02 but, the problem is I've got a cdrw attached to a pci-scsi card (internal) 08:37:10 that's annoying. 08:37:17 there was a pre-OF bootloader called BootX 08:37:24 and bootx hangs at opt+boot you said it 08:38:01 well, basically I'm trying to allow the user to switch between OS 9 and OS 10 at power on 08:38:28 have you looked at yaboot? 08:38:36 (for linux, but it installs a boot menu) 08:38:37 not yet 08:38:42 okay... 08:38:49 which is just a little forth script 08:38:51 where do you put it? 08:38:59 rather get it? 08:39:38 http://penguinppc.org/projects/yaboot/ 08:39:40 dual-boot lost my interst nearly a decade ago 08:39:47 :) 08:40:00 not sure the script is in a terribly readable form though. 08:40:13 well...the user has some classic apps that he's very attached to and they don't run in the OSX classic environment 08:40:22 forth isn't terribly readable.... 08:40:26 reminds me of asm 08:40:39 no, I mean, they have a template which they fill out for your system, IIRC. 08:40:45 ahh,,, 08:41:10 okay...the only issue is this...on rare occasions 08:41:17 anyway, you would just put it somewhere, and point your boot-device variable at it, I think. 08:41:51 okay...if I want to bypass the script, I could just cmd+opt+o+f and set my boot-device to the desired device, no? 08:42:08 well....OF for this mac has a variable called boot-script 08:42:24 should be able to 08:42:35 hehe 08:42:35 the other potential fix is to eliminate the hanging problem during the scsi probe.... 08:42:53 "script" implies a compiled "interpreter" ;-> 08:43:07 but that seems rather difficult 08:43:42 am I to presume os9 uses forth? I find it unlikely 08:44:11 PoppaVic: no, OpenFirmware is the "BIOS" on most powermacs; it's a forth system. 08:44:11 yes 08:44:18 ahhhhh 08:44:30 genoobie: sorry, I'm not clear exactly what your problem is. 08:44:35 I never heard that from the openbios guys - my bad 08:44:43 well...right...the BIOS is forth & some compiled stuff in the Boot ROM file 08:45:09 tathi...well...if I could eliminate the hangup at opt+boot...I would be all set 08:45:20 i.e. boot from my cdrw 08:45:27 attached to the scsi card 08:46:03 so if you go to the OF prompt and do 08:46:04 here's my boot menu: http://herkamire.com/downloads/ofboot.b 08:46:16 boot cdrw,\\:tbxi 08:46:21 with a bootable cd, it crashes? 08:46:27 (or whatever the path to your cd device is? 08:46:49 yah...well there's the rub... 08:46:55 cd is the alias for an ata device 08:47:16 do you know the OF path to the cdrw? 08:47:18 when I use OS X to set the startup disk to the cdrw&scsi system the boot-device looks like 08:47:27 --- nick: Raystm2_ -> nanstm 08:47:33 pci/ADPT,2930CU@3/@3:2,\\:tbxi 08:47:41 and does that work ok? 08:47:46 yah...but 08:48:02 the opt+boot can't generate that ID for some reason 08:48:14 sorry, what's opt+boot ? 08:48:28 opt+boot loads mac os x's native bootloader bootX 08:48:39 like ntloader... 08:49:22 my script above is just a simple OF script. you tell OF to load it, then hit a key, or wait two secconds, and it boots whatever OS 08:49:26 opt+boot is an OF word? 08:49:30 no 08:49:40 it's holding down the opt key when you power on 08:49:42 you tell OF to run it every time you startup your computer that is 08:49:48 sorry if that was ambiguous 08:49:59 oh, ok. 08:50:03 oh :) 08:50:08 hehe 08:50:11 well here's the thing... 08:50:17 * PoppaVic just watches 08:50:19 so OF doesn't recognize it as a bootable mac system 08:50:39 what sort of CD do you have in there? 08:50:46 yah...OF doesn't recognize the cdrw&scsi(with the OS X install cd in there) 08:51:05 weird 08:51:10 it's an adaptec 2930CU rom vers 4 08:51:14 so...if you hold down opt while booting, you get some kind of boot menu? 08:51:19 yes 08:51:37 so you just need to use my boot script, or something similar, and have one of the options be to boot pci/ADPT,2930CU@3/@3:2,\\:tbxi 08:51:47 it almost seems as if it tries to recognize the cdrw 08:51:50 well, right 08:51:56 but here's the thing... 08:52:02 hehe 08:52:14 tathi: yeah, it takes a long time, and then displays an icon for each bootable partition/disk/device it can find with the silly "blessed" folder 08:52:30 tathi: it's built into OF 08:52:47 os x cd = pci/ADPT,2930CU@3/@3:2,\\:tbxi, os 9 cd = pci/ADPT,2930CU@3/@3:9,\\:tbxi 08:52:50 tathi: well, not the older versions of OF, but it's gotta be on your computer 08:52:59 wow.. I guess I need a nap, since shit is petrifying 08:53:01 I'm not sure why one is 2 and the other is 9 08:53:03 /stay well, folks 08:53:05 any ideas? 08:53:06 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 08:53:18 peace poppavic 08:53:19 :2 / :9 is the partition number. 08:53:20 I don't know 08:53:28 oh right 08:53:32 generally on apple filesystems there are driver partitions and such 08:53:37 so the first usable partition is often 9 08:53:47 hmm...why isn't the partition the same in all discs? 08:54:04 I mean cd's 08:54:07 different partitioning schemes 08:54:10 well, you don't necessarily need all those little partitions at the beginning. 08:54:18 but OS 9 tools always added them. 08:54:22 linux does not need nearly so many 08:54:25 I'd guess OS X doesn't necessarily. 08:54:36 yah...mac's partitioning scheme seems a little funky... 08:55:16 so here's my plan 1) call adaptec and see if they'll ship me an updated rom 08:55:20 2) install a bootloader 08:55:30 JasonWoof where'd you put that script 08:55:38 I mean, how do you get that thing to run? 08:55:46 put it somewhere that OF can find it. 08:55:47 and how can you bypass it if you want 08:55:54 and then point boot-device at it. 08:56:08 well, it's usually set with the default option as your "normal" OS. 08:56:20 urf...okay...I know how to setenv boot-device... 08:56:24 (i.e. that probably boots linux on his box after 5 seconds or so) 08:56:26 http://herkamire.com/downloads/ofboot.b 08:56:29 but I'm not sure about paths 08:56:54 is that a penguin in there? 08:57:07 yeah, I'm not sure that's actually used though 08:57:14 can you comment in forth? 08:57:22 \ comment to end of line 08:57:28 ( comment between parentheses ) 08:57:46 genoobie: to get it to boot, you put it in the root directory of an hfs partition, then you boot into OF, and type: boot-device DRIVE:PARTITION,ofboot.b 08:57:56 filling in DRIVE and PARTITION as approrpriate of course 08:58:00 for paths, you could use the OS X util to set the boot-device for the various choices, and then read them off. 08:58:07 :P 08:58:11 wait 08:58:29 well tathi I did that but here's the wierd thing 08:58:34 oops 08:58:35 OS 9 & 10 are on the same partition 08:58:43 that's: setevn boot-device DRIVE:PARTITION,ofboot.b 08:58:45 rrr 08:58:49 that's: setenv boot-device DRIVE:PARTITION,ofboot.b 08:59:00 there... got it right finally I think 08:59:01 so OF gives me the same boot-device for 9 & 10 08:59:07 :) 08:59:32 genoobie: ? 08:59:40 oh. might be a variable boot-path? 08:59:41 must be a different partition or something... 08:59:43 I should've put them on different partitions when I re-built his computer 08:59:47 no.... 08:59:48 oh, right boot-path 08:59:53 it's wierd... 09:00:08 boot-device is the same for os 9 and 10 09:00:22 I haven't played with boot-path, but I guess that's the way to deal with two Mac OSes on the same partition 09:00:31 ohohoho.... 09:00:40 i see is there a variable called boot-path? 09:00:44 yes 09:00:53 ah-hah...I should look at that 09:01:56 so JasonWoof if I install yaboot and replace the default script with the script you set-up and make some mods...i should be good to go 09:02:16 --- join: snoopy_16 (snoopy_161@dsl-084-058-165-135.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 09:02:30 well I'm off to screw around with the bootloader... 09:02:45 have fun :) 09:02:48 be back in about 10 mins...after I wipe out my OF... 09:03:07 :) 09:03:15 so tathi...before I go... 09:03:31 boot ROM is the thing that get's flashed to the "BIOS" chip right? 09:04:17 or no... 09:04:47 not sure 09:04:57 hmm...better not screw around with it then... 09:05:01 OF has "nvram" 09:05:11 reading the paths in OF is completely new to me 09:05:22 I noticed that... 09:05:26 apple has some nice tutorial stuff if you can find it. 09:05:33 :) 09:05:53 hrm. It might not be boot-path. 09:05:58 I swear there's another variable though. 09:06:06 there's boot-file 09:06:12 boot-script 09:07:06 hmm. I guess just check those; see if they have different values for 9 and 10... 09:07:52 hmm...printenv...I don't see boot-path anywhere 09:08:00 yeah. 09:08:19 how do I "see" it? 09:09:09 I'm not seeing boot-path either. Must have been wrong about the name. 09:09:13 --- join: genoobie_ (~genoobie@pool-71-241-167-74.buff.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 09:09:50 those are the only variables I see and they don't change after setting various startup discs in either 9 or 10 09:10:19 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 09:10:34 --- nick: snoopy_16 -> Snoopy42 09:10:44 so the boot script wont help me unless I can distinguish between those two OS's some how 09:10:49 hrm. 09:10:55 I think it has to do with \\:tbxi 09:11:26 or here's another thing... 09:11:38 do you know about devalias? 09:12:47 yeah 09:12:55 what about it? 09:13:04 well shouldn't scsi be in there? 09:13:22 you don't need yaboot for my script 09:13:30 that script is it... 09:14:04