00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.07.03
00:53:43 <virl> morning all GMT+2 people
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05:03:11 <pnkfelix> exit
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05:04:37 <Robert> Morning, virl.
05:12:43 <alexander_> fuck
05:12:47 <alexander_> Mono is such a bad idea
05:14:45 <virl> hmm, why?
05:15:26 <alexander_> it's so much overhead
05:15:57 <virl> its the same with .net, so..
05:18:10 <alexander_> so .. what?  .net is a bad idea too
05:19:31 <virl> exactly, both are bad ideas and java is another bad idea.
05:22:59 <virl> a forth system with some good modern design decisions would be the right thing.
05:24:42 <Robert> Most forthers should consider it to be "not forth!!!!" though. :)
05:27:43 <virl> no blocks and such things...
05:29:51 <Robert> Heh.
05:30:02 <Robert> OK, now you're out of the 60s. What next? ;)
05:30:56 <virl> stream files..
05:31:51 <alexander_> virl: I like blocks
05:33:19 <Robert> There ususally isn't much point to use blocks on most computers.
05:33:34 <Robert> Especially since you usually need a file system for non-Forth source purposes.
05:46:02 <virl> blocks only make sense on a forth system which runs native.
05:47:02 <Robert> And when there's nothing but forth on the system.
05:47:18 <Robert> I mean, it's not like text documents benefit from no FS
05:56:15 <virl> and a standardized way to access network, sound, graphics. etc.
05:56:56 <Robert> Have fun implementing that. :)
05:58:13 <virl> hell, I don't want to implement that.
05:58:33 <Robert> Oh.
05:58:57 <Robert> You don't like writing drivers for the 1k+ cards floating around? :)
05:59:01 <virl> maybe somewhere in the future, but that won't be a java replacement.
05:59:27 <virl> which 1k+ cards?
06:00:02 <Robert> Check the Linux driver list. :)
06:00:05 <virl> at the time I have a lot of todo to implement my forth system on the XGS.
06:00:32 <Robert> Ah.. well, on a standardized platform it's of course much easier.
06:07:31 <virl> which platform, a software or a hardware?
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06:09:21 <Robert> Hardware.
06:09:29 <Robert> I assume you're writing the software.
06:09:30 <PoppaVic> Mornin'
06:09:32 <Robert> And hi, PoppaVic 
06:09:55 <PoppaVic> howdy
06:10:02 * virl is now confused
06:12:10 <PoppaVic> what's the confusion? (bearing in mind I'm on the first coffee)
06:13:16 <virl> I talked about a standardized forth system, not a standardized hardware.
06:13:54 <PoppaVic> Hmm
06:14:09 <PoppaVic> Well, it seems quite unlikely to truly occur
06:15:09 <PoppaVic> However, I'll keep puttering - I've other goals ;-)
06:16:59 <virl> me to, but when to replace .net,mono,java it could be perfectly made with a haevy standardized forth system
06:17:40 <PoppaVic> forget "replace", but consider "alternative" or "instead of"
06:18:12 <virl> it was only an idea.
06:18:21 <PoppaVic> Look at me, now.. I want this Metabuilder project to succeed, but it isn't remotely intended to replace GNU Autoshit.
06:19:31 <virl> when you do it better and it would be in every system then you could.
06:19:44 <PoppaVic> Instead, it will merely offer - at least initially - to offer similarities w/o all the insanity. 
06:20:42 <PoppaVic> well, *I* have no interest in trying to understand enough autoshit to convert every package on the planet.
06:21:03 <PoppaVic> ..and the latter would be insanely time-consuming.
06:24:33 <PoppaVic> In fact.. I'd have been much, much further along at this point if I had not gotten seriously peeved and begun work on this bloody TIL. ALas, I figure that w/o the TIL - written portably in C - then there is not much point to all the other work.
06:30:11 <PoppaVic> THe hillarious part is... The lispers want me to learn lisp; The forthers generally use asm; and C'ers use C ;-)
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07:11:39 <virl> and how does your 'metabuilder' work?
07:13:26 <PoppaVic> It doesn't... yet.
07:13:38 <PoppaVic> Gotta' write a decent TIL first
07:13:46 <PoppaVic> ..THen finish Minish
07:13:55 <PoppaVic> and, finally, hammer the Metabuilder
07:15:17 <PoppaVic> Trying right now to decide if I want to write all the code manually, or write a "generator".
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07:19:42 <virl> with what do you describe the package?
07:19:54 <PoppaVic> how do you mean?
07:20:34 <PoppaVic> the project I'm beating, or what the thing will work upon?
07:21:19 <virl> in autoconf you write a script to describe a package how is your approach?
07:21:27 <PoppaVic> oh.
07:21:45 <PoppaVic> I _had_ ideas, but the idea of the TIL will end up changing them.
07:22:49 <PoppaVic> I suspect there are two ways: 1) literally cross-compile a turnkey script/program to do all the building/install/etc; or 2) write a perfectly portable 'script' that does the same on the target.
07:24:39 <PoppaVic> The prob with autoshit is: there are so godDAMNED many tools, syntaxes and semantics that it takes forever to use well.
07:25:03 <PoppaVic> further, itself depends on programs that themselves are not always portable.
07:26:37 <PoppaVic> by creating a decently-portable TIL we get lexing, parsing, and extensibility; by writing Minish I get a portable shell; ANd Metabuilder will base itself on that system.
07:29:02 <PoppaVic> remember too: even sh and GNU make are not universal, sadly. It's buggin' me shitless, but I'll deal with that one way or the other.
07:36:58 <PoppaVic> well, I'm gonna' go off and do a few chores.. Back laters..
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09:15:29 <PoppaVic> OK.. maybe _now_ I can write some code today ;-)
09:32:36 <Robert> That's  a good thing, I suppoes.
09:32:40 <Robert> suppose
09:33:50 <PoppaVic> Yeah, if the mind-meshes
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09:53:30 <PoppaVic> lo, Herk
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09:53:51 <JasonWoof> hi PoppaVic
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10:13:25 <crc> hi everyone
10:13:41 <PoppaVic> lo
10:14:37 <Robert> Hi
10:14:45 <virl> hi crc
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11:34:09 <PoppaVic> I'm getting extremely peeved
11:37:20 <crc> why?
11:37:58 <PoppaVic> because I can't trust in make, or shells or any goddamned thing to build OR install my goddamned Metabuilder.
11:38:16 <crc> heh
11:38:37 <PoppaVic> well, it's irksome
11:39:21 <PoppaVic> I'm thinking of writing a braindead Makefile to serially generate C programs; or a damned interpreter to prompt and build same-same.
11:39:58 * crc understands. I've grown to dislike "make" over the last few months
11:41:48 <PoppaVic> I loved 'make' - until I learned that there are about 3+ and every goddamned one is incompatible
11:41:59 <crc> heh
11:42:01 <crc> yeah
11:42:18 <crc> and using shell scripts is even worse
11:42:28 <PoppaVic> worse, the fuckers let you define the "shell" and THOSE are not even remotely portable
11:42:55 <PoppaVic> I see two possibilities...
11:43:18 <PoppaVic> 1) write a purely C program; 2) write the most simple-minded Makefile I can.
11:44:04 <PoppaVic> I'm leaning toward the former and a textfile akin to the latter FOR the former.
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11:44:45 <PoppaVic> you can't even depend on uname & friends
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11:50:41 <PoppaVic> even pkg-config is an issue
11:59:28 <alexander_> re..
12:15:16 <virl> but you can depend on gcc :)
12:15:27 <PoppaVic> yeah, I have to
12:16:22 <PoppaVic> I'll have to write it for me/now; try on linux; *bsd and others - hoping all the testers can code alternatives
12:22:22 <PoppaVic> shit.. I give up for today.. Laters, guys - back tomorrow...
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14:34:39 <Robert> Hi, Wizard.
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14:36:16 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Robert
14:53:39 <arke> hi
14:54:01 <TheBlueWizard> hiya arke
14:55:25 <arke> :)
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16:03:07 <TheBlueWizard> bye all
16:03:12 <Robert> Bye.
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17:00:35 <dt0x> hi
17:03:34 <Robert> Hi, dt0x.
17:04:05 <crc> : ( ;
17:04:05 <crc> : ) here >r swap , , r> ;
17:04:05 <crc> : cdr cell+ : car @ ;
17:04:09 <crc> oops
17:04:16 <crc> wrong window :)
17:04:55 <Robert> Listh?
17:06:23 <crc> The start of a lisp-like language in rf
17:07:27 <Robert> Nice, I think.
17:08:35 <crc> ( 10 ( 14 40 ) ) cdr car .
17:08:36 <crc> 14
17:16:23 <Raystm2> listh -- good name :)
17:16:57 <dt0x> Raystm2: how are you
17:17:30 * Raystm2 is well :)
17:17:38 <Raystm2> and yourself?
17:17:53 <Raystm2> howdy Robert and crc ;)
17:18:45 <Robert> Hi, Ray :)
17:20:19 <dt0x> not bad. 
17:20:28 <dt0x> continuing work on my project :-)
17:22:40 <Raystm2> your project is? sorry, i'm often ashamed at my bad memory. :(
17:22:58 <dt0x> the integrated studio pod thing. 
17:23:09 <dt0x> (sorry :-)
17:23:38 <dt0x> i can't call it that because Apple will sue me. 
17:23:46 <dt0x> so i'll have to think of something else. 
17:23:50 <Raystm2> oh sure, now that's one cool box :)
17:23:55 <Raystm2> I recall now. 
17:24:30 <dt0x> hehehe, i have spent some weeks installing it into its own room.... one-piece recording/mastering studio, office, bedroom, study
17:24:30 <Raystm2> thanks for sharing that. I can see that thing as a decent product for those who could use but could not build themselves
17:24:43 <Raystm2> right i remember. 
17:26:34 <dt0x> Raystm2: definitely. i also am unifying the keymaps and working on custom software to make the whole thing easier/more consistent to use
17:27:10 <dt0x> i.e. obviously someone should know something about audio production to use one, but they shouldn't have to have years of Linux experience :-)
17:27:54 <Raystm2> that's the winning poing right there in a nutshell.
17:28:00 <Raystm2> poing=point even
17:28:10 <dt0x> htheheheh . The Winning Poing. good album title
17:28:42 <Raystm2> hehe
17:28:43 <dt0x> NP: shock the monkey
17:29:08 <Raystm2> sometime ask me about what shock the monkey means in the Philipeans.
17:29:39 * Raystm2 fixing typos on http://colorforth.info
17:29:42 <dt0x> so I have this "extra" Pentium 4 PC in here. now I am going to mess with Xdmx to ge
17:29:54 <dt0x> to get the 1 keyboard controlling both screens/machines. 
17:30:12 <Raystm2> very cool.
17:30:35 <dt0x> what have you been up to. how is your business going
17:32:26 <dt0x> on my side: i have been sucked into the Forth mindset (whatever that means) by Eduardo Ochs (http://angg.twu.net )
17:32:26 <dt0x>  
17:39:32 <Raystm2> I've taken on the responsibility of providing the minimalist programming community with colorforth information at http://colorforth.info 
17:40:06 <Raystm2> business wise. work is up and down in my day job. 
17:40:13 <Raystm2> feast or famine.
17:40:41 <Raystm2> my night jobs are taking a temporary backseat to colorforth.info
17:41:00 <Robert> Looks nice.
17:41:14 <Raystm2> I want to get that out of the way , started at least, before I go off and make my millions :)
17:41:20 <Raystm2> thanks Robert :)
17:41:22 <Robert> Heh.
17:41:54 <Raystm2> okay okay hundreds of thousands then? :)
17:41:58 * Robert is doing two-colored C.
17:42:10 <Raystm2> two-colored c hehehehe
17:42:15 <Raystm2> black and white :)
17:42:17 <Robert> Black and green.
17:42:20 <Raystm2> ah
17:42:20 <Robert> Almost.
17:42:25 <Raystm2> of course 
17:42:28 <Raystm2> hehe
17:42:44 <Raystm2> I used to hate those Wyse orange and black terminals
17:43:19 <Robert> Hm, orange and green looks the same to me.
17:43:38 * Raystm2 makes the Programmers File Editor do green on black.
17:44:11 <dt0x> Raystm2: does the minimalist set include Emacs freaks (i.e. all their applications/work inside a lisp interpreter)
17:44:12 <Raystm2> its refreshing sometimes, after all those white background pages
17:44:24 * crc does "green onBlack clear" to set make do green on black
17:44:45 <crc> s/make/make retroforth/
17:45:36 <Raystm2> lisp could be considered minimalist
17:46:08 * Raystm2 loves lisp and has ignored nay neglected it all year
17:46:08 <crc> not common lisp....
17:46:14 <dt0x> my IRC client is in lisp :-)
17:46:18 <Robert> I spent a week coding 6502 asm on a monitor that could do only green and black ;)
17:46:29 <Robert> That was my vacation this summer.
17:46:34 <Raystm2> heheh
17:46:52 * crc admins a network that has 12 dumb terminals that only do green (or orange) and black
17:47:56 <dt0x> is there any relation between Minimalism and Futurism? 
17:48:19 <Raystm2> I would have to say I believe there is.
17:48:44 * dt0x reading a book on Futurism right now
17:48:50 <Raystm2> reason: Starting the entire task of reinventing every wheel that has been done before.
17:49:29 <Raystm2> and then providing things that could have never been done in the previous OS world.
17:49:58 <Raystm2> what's the book?
17:51:09 <Robert> crc: Neat, what's it doing?
17:51:50 <Raystm2> crc up till recently , Casters of Fort Worth was all dumb Wyse terminals orange on black.
17:52:28 <Raystm2> now we provide the office system thru Anzio terminal emulation on various windows systems.
17:52:31 <crc> They run off an AIX box, each is logged into an account that starts Prophet21's Array program
17:52:48 <crc> We're slowly moving to a mixed AIX/Windows setup
17:53:15 <Raystm2> were on a mixed SCO-UNIX/Windows system at COFW
17:53:20 * crc is going to be using Linux to offload some things from the AIX box
17:53:46 <crc> Raystm2: UnixWare or OpenServer?
17:54:06 <Raystm2> UnixWare I believe as I don't have access.
17:54:12 <crc> ahh
17:54:27 * crc knows that RetroForth/Generic runs on OpenServer
17:54:35 <Raystm2> Anzio is the terminal we use to acces the `main frame'
17:55:16 <Raystm2> We are fighting the deciision to go fully Windows.
17:55:22 <Raystm2> Boss can't make up his mind
17:55:22 <crc> don't give in!
17:55:38 <crc> Admining a Windows-only network is a pain
17:55:59 * crc also notes that the admin can generally get more $$$ for running a split network too, but that's secondary
17:56:04 <dt0x> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/3822829668/qid=1120438600/sr=8-20/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i10_xgl14/002-3949056-8711226?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
17:56:09 <Raystm2> the system is actually pretty good as it is -- developed by my boss ( not a programmer but an accountant ) over thirty years.
17:56:14 <dt0x> that's the book. (sorry for delay... keyboard batteries ran out in mid-search :-)
17:56:30 <Raystm2> hehehe
17:56:50 <Raystm2> crc: Admin wants us to go to FoxPro. 
17:56:59 <crc> Fire the admin
17:57:05 <Raystm2> yes indeed :)
17:57:13 <Raystm2> I will tell Boss you said so :)
17:57:25 <crc> ok
17:57:54 <crc> Windows is too unreliable to run for any serious work
17:59:41 <Raystm2> I keep telling boss that i love the old system, and this has had weight in the argument. I keep telling him that the 30 odd years he's been developing the old system has been worth the investment, that he has a truely remarkable system in house now.
18:00:35 <Raystm2> I would love to re-write it in a forth.
18:00:45 <crc> yeah
18:01:16 <Raystm2> I've been telling the boss that if he did, he could give it freely on the web and sell the manuals.
18:01:32 <Raystm2> this would be great PR for the company.
18:01:57 <Raystm2> and the software may be his greatest asset.
18:02:14 <crc> yeah
18:02:38 * crc is working to eventually move away from Array and to a custom app I'm writing in RetroForth
18:02:43 <Raystm2> 100's of thousands of companies start up each year, and they all need great software to be competitive.
18:02:59 <Raystm2> our system has kept us ahead of competition.
18:05:33 <Raystm2> I've worked for some of the competiton , all using PEACHTREE and all haveing very detrimental problems
18:07:33 <Raystm2> my Boss is credited with making two very important decisions in our industry. First to import. ( actually taught factories overseas how to build our products -- now they compete with us also ) and that great software system, that makes us able to provide sameday/nextday service.
18:08:20 <crc> so why are they considering giving it up?
18:08:35 <Raystm2> When I started with this company -- every other company in our industry was shipping in 4-6 weeks, We changed that.
18:08:59 <Raystm2> That's the advice of outsourced ADMIN.
18:09:28 <Raystm2> he's got the licence for FOXPRO and wants us to `upgrade'. 
18:09:51 <Raystm2> He would take a FOXPRO that he's sold to another company and adapt it to us.
18:10:27 <Raystm2> Which of course would require years to accomplish if he does this alone, at 75 dollars an hour.
18:10:32 <crc> yup
18:10:37 <crc> that's why he wants to do it
18:10:47 <Raystm2> Yes, I agree.
18:10:59 <Raystm2> Boss has hesitated ever since I returned.
18:11:00 * crc would recommend keeping what you have, making changes to that if they're needed
18:11:10 <Raystm2> absolutely.
18:11:27 <crc> hmm
18:11:41 <crc> accidentally reformat the admin's hard drive?
18:11:42 <Raystm2> A few courses in database and networking and I believe I could administor.
18:11:47 <Raystm2> ahahahahaa
18:12:50 <crc> it'd solve some problems. An admin that can't protect his own system is worthless.
18:13:47 <Raystm2> infact, monday I think i'll look into this `courses' thing and put it to the boss.
18:13:57 <crc> cool
18:14:06 * crc wishes you luck there
18:14:14 <Raystm2> I could use the knowledge anyway and he would benifit ultimately.
18:14:55 <Raystm2> Besides, courses I need are all online. rigth?
18:15:01 <crc> I'd assume so
18:16:21 <Raystm2> I couldn't do all the things i'd like to do if I were two people, but that's not stopping me :)
18:26:16 <Raystm2> index.htm up but i still have to connect it to ABOUTUS
18:28:34 <Raystm2> http://colorforth.info
18:30:22 <crc> nice :)
18:30:22 <crc> -
18:31:44 <tathi> I like it. :)
18:31:57 <tathi> but...
18:32:14 * tathi report Raystm to the Apostrophe Protection Society (http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/)
18:32:17 <tathi> :)
18:32:25 <tathi> grr, reports even
18:33:15 * Raystm2 checks out this link :)
18:33:42 <tathi> (you've got a couple of "it's" where you should have "its")
18:33:45 <Raystm2> hahahaha okay olay
18:33:52 <Raystm2> right hehe
18:34:03 <Raystm2> glad to be corrected. 
18:34:25 <Raystm2> many years since HS english, in which i only ever got a C :)
18:34:56 <tathi> :)
18:35:02 * Raystm2 re-reads the site with this in mind.
18:35:33 <tathi> I'm lucky, I grew up in a family obsessed with the English language (word games and such).
18:35:52 <Raystm2> Please be aware that /me went to a special HS were I build a radio station and camped out there for four years
18:36:26 <Raystm2> verbally i'm a charmer, in text you will be disgusted.\
18:36:32 <tathi> I know a couple of other people who did that, oddly enough :)
18:36:53 <Raystm2> really, get there names they should be immediately medicated.
18:37:17 <arke> :)
18:37:23 <tathi> "it's shallow depths", "it's infancy", "it's own environment and language"
18:37:30 <tathi> really? you seem to do all right
18:37:45 <tathi> or...you've been treated for this disorder already? ;)
18:37:50 <Raystm2> hahaha
18:37:59 <Raystm2> no i'm still on the loose. :)
18:38:08 <Raystm2> I've never been captured.
18:38:21 <Raystm2> still looking over shoulder tho.
18:39:15 <Raystm2> I think I type faster than I think.
18:39:33 <tathi> the hand is quicker than the eye?
18:39:42 <Raystm2> agreed
18:46:42 <tathi> Hey Robert, you know that obfuscated Java site you posted a couple of days back?
18:47:20 <tathi> well...one of the points was a diatribe against automated code tidiers.
18:47:57 <tathi> and...I noticed that the point talking about misleading indentation on nested if/else code was actually correct indentation.
18:48:02 <tathi> so I wrote the guy about it.
18:48:18 <tathi> turns out he ran an automatic tidy on his site, and it mucked it up. :)
18:48:34 <tathi> mucked it up = corrected it
18:53:13 <Raystm2> HEHE
18:53:52 <Raystm2> it's' fixed :)
18:54:40 <Raystm2> thanks tathi -- you will get a spelling corrections ack -- what url would you like it to point to ?
18:56:00 * Raystm2 moves on to Contact page.
18:56:12 <Raystm2> then LINKS
18:56:19 <Raystm2> Then MLIST
18:56:29 <Raystm2> then the FAQ can begin
19:03:59 <tathi> bah, I don't need an acknowledgement.
19:04:17 <Raystm2> okay -- I am in your debt ;)
19:05:19 * Raystm2 is remembering to try to say it is when ever i need it's and its when it is doesn't work thanks to tathi -- there's your ack :)
19:09:29 <JasonWoof> grr stupid software
19:09:53 <JasonWoof> still can't get mod_perl and apache to play nice
19:13:32 <JasonWoof> so... what the hell, I'm going to try lighttpd
19:19:16 <Raystm2> JasonWoof did i tell ya I like the site color thing you did, very cool indeed.
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20:36:15 --- quit: tathi ("'night all")
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.07.03