00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.06.26 03:05:06 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:08:27 --- join: PoppaVic (~pete@0-1pool65-233.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:08:41 Mornin' 05:09:31 Hi. 05:55:27 PoppaVic, so what should we do? 05:55:48 huh? wha? I'm half awake here 05:56:58 oh yeah, i got rejected for Soc 05:57:04 eh, continuing the discussion you started yesterday. 05:57:06 Soc? 05:57:16 virl: refresh me, please... 05:58:18 broken development bottom line 05:58:28 oh... the compilers? 05:58:37 data-formats? 05:58:41 files? 05:59:14 yes 05:59:40 OK, well - we already know there are some places where forth ala' fig or whatever would certainly be fast and easy to use as an "OS" on "the platform", right? 06:00:21 In that vein you could add cross-compiling (Metacompiling for 'elsewhere') 06:01:31 --- quit: retrobot2 (Remote closed the connection) 06:01:50 But.. Given a working platform... Linux, macosx, Doze, *bsd, etc... There is really just no call for a full-bore forth pretending to be an OS, right? In fact... You'd WANT to use the available stuff that already knows the hw, right? 06:03:03 (we'd prolly shit ourselves to see a 'flinux' bootstrap) 06:03:39 So, the next prob is either portability or speed-of-reuse. 06:04:36 afaik, (last I read), there IS no decent, fullbore "portable" forth dialect. ANS is as broken as ansi-C and when you hit the ABI, all bets are off. 06:04:52 (this is text now) 06:05:33 So, we need a dialect that resolves this portably, while allowing peering into the ABI - portably. 06:06:29 Once the dialect is "portable", we can consider "precompiling" modules that are themselves portable, as well as libs and whatnot. 06:07:08 BUT, to downshift... I see this same hell with assembly - like GNU 'as' 06:08:58 In fact, we see a spin-off 'crippling' with goddamned C... Multiple std "modes" and each is either crippled deliberately or incompletely adopted. And every committee wants to ignore the "core" (libc) so as to flog their fav semantics/syntax changes. 06:10:12 And, of course, we already KNOW that learning about the ABI and platform for building C sucks - because we suffer the ugly shitpile called "GNU autotools" (autoshit) 06:11:56 Because of all this ya-ya, I am working on a C program - currently a forthish module - to begin resolving ABI/platform issues from the bottom up. 06:14:06 --- join: retrobot2 (crc@bespin.org) joined #forth 06:14:06 RetroForth Bot -- Type retrobot2: 06:18:05 retrobot2: ." yeah! Where Are the horses dude?" cr 06:18:07 virl: yeah! Where Are the horses dude? 06:18:53 did I answer anything, or are you just playing with the bot? ;-) 06:19:36 --- mode: crc set +v retrobot2 06:19:47 * PoppaVic sighs 06:21:14 hey, the bot is cool. and yes you showed me what you want, and that isn't much different than that what I think it needs to be done. 06:21:35 yeah, the issues smack us in the chops every day 06:23:40 A canned solution mighta' worked for me, but I wasn't well-pleased with what I was seeing. I still prefer to let lex generate some really generic input-forms 06:24:23 of course, it's also true that every canned solution is licensed in ways I prefer not to guess at 06:25:32 not much good forth systems are free 06:25:43 I know - and it's hurt them for decades 06:26:21 Some folks even accept it based on the premise that "we only write embedded code" 06:27:24 Others defend the current crop of "freeware" with the premise "we only care about script/input anyway" 06:29:49 forth could be so powerful, when that premises wouldn't exist 06:30:05 and, of course, there is the entire school of "fuck y'all: it runs!" 06:30:50 yes, I strongly believe we'd benefit from .o/.a/.so/etc files 06:31:44 thats for a forthish-engine, mind you. Development still needs those tools to learn about platform, ABI, etc 06:34:03 talking with madwork yesterday, I also am considering the idea of a "tagged-node stack". 06:35:09 Also, my "stack code" uses a dynamic-queue... So, I can push/pull and prepend/append, etc.. 06:36:33 Unfortunately, while I am about 2/3's of the way into my module, his thoughts suggest I backtrack and rewrite about 1/2 or 2/3's of that code. 06:37:31 This is one of those cases where the design - even if blackboxed - becomes so important that you cannot proceed well if the foundation isn't laid properly. 06:41:18 damn... Indeed, I may to go back into all my forwards & typedefs and rewrite a pile of them to work within that new "stack" paradigm. 06:41:32 may [need] to 06:47:22 --- quit: saon ("leaving") 06:55:11 --- join: saon (~saon@c-24-129-91-106.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 06:57:58 I'm seriously trying to envision a stack where every datum has a tag in terms of a callback 'tag' 07:02:33 --- join: Topaz (~top@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust117.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 07:11:07 --- quit: PayphoneEd (Remote closed the connection) 07:22:09 --- join: PayphoneEd (~Ed@payphoneed.user) joined #forth 07:40:55 --- quit: saon ("Lost terminal") 07:43:31 --- join: saon (~saon@c-24-129-91-106.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 07:43:43 --- quit: saon (Client Quit) 07:44:02 --- join: saon (~saon@c-24-129-91-106.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 07:50:46 ok, I need madwork to wake the fuck up ;-) His goddamned idea has stirred-up a hornets nest ;-) 07:52:08 --- quit: PayphoneEd (Remote closed the connection) 07:53:33 --- join: PayphoneEd (~Ed@payphoneed.user) joined #forth 07:57:36 has anyone written a regex-like lexer in/for forth? 08:00:44 --- quit: PoppaVic ("brb - time to recycle before sweep") 08:02:38 --- join: PoppaVic (~pete@0-1pool67-166.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 08:03:23 back, sorry 08:06:58 No, I haven't. 08:07:08 But I would be interested in one. 08:07:36 do you ever make sense? 08:07:54 People tend to thing I don't. 08:08:04 But I was refering to your question about regex in Forth. 08:08:12 think* 08:08:16 better 08:08:27 I suspected it 08:09:02 forthies are as set as perl-freaks. 08:24:14 --- quit: PoppaVic ("calls it a day") 08:26:35 --- join: kc2keo_ (~kc2keo@ip62.196.susc.suscom.net) joined #forth 08:26:54 hi 08:27:50 Hi 08:38:39 --- quit: kc2keo_ ("leaving") 09:56:11 --- join: jkk (joe@adsl-69-153-231-86.dsl.ltrkar.swbell.net) joined #forth 09:56:19 anyone use picforth jumptables ? 10:04:45 re.. 10:30:55 Hi, and sorry Joe.. 10:50:37 --- join: tathi (~josh@tathi.bronze.supporter.pdpc) joined #forth 12:03:10 --- quit: jkk ("leaving") 12:21:20 --- join: snoopy_1711 (~snoopy_16@dsl-084-058-150-240.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 12:29:31 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 12:29:52 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 14:14:37 --- quit: madgarden ("?OUT OF DATA ERROR") 14:14:57 --- join: madgarden (~madgarden@Kitchener-HSE-ppp3577233.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 14:26:33 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ts001d0668.wdc-dc.xod.concentric.net) joined #forth 14:27:29 Hi 14:27:48 hiya Robert 14:29:09 hey 14:30:19 hiya alexander_ 14:47:23 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:50:18 --- quit: cmeme (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:51:32 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.2) joined #forth 14:51:49 --- quit: cmeme (Remote closed the connection) 14:52:33 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.2) joined #forth 14:55:26 gotta go...bye! 14:55:33 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 15:18:24 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@c-24-218-95-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 15:18:24 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Herkamire 15:20:24 hi everyone 15:20:46 sup crc 15:21:43 H 15:21:43 i 15:22:47 hi hi 15:22:55 I'm still working on the handbook 15:23:02 * crc hates writing documentation.... 15:23:40 documenting is time consuming 15:24:05 yeah 15:25:23 I've been up to my armpits in i386 segments and virtual->physical page handling 15:25:42 For your Forth? 15:26:00 yah, I want to get a kernel in place that will do process control 15:26:10 I have some ideas about virtual memory, and how the processes are going to interact 15:28:50 Sounds nice. How does the Forth dialect you use look? 16:04:56 --- quit: Topaz (Remote closed the connection) 16:08:43 --- quit: saon ("leaving") 17:02:34 --- join: saon (~saon@c-24-129-91-106.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 17:04:45 --- join: crc2 (crc@pool-70-110-129-213.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 17:05:26 --- quit: crc (Nick collision from services.) 17:05:28 --- nick: crc2 -> crc 17:05:33 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 17:05:55 What kind of memory managment does rf/native support? 17:06:15 manual 17:06:38 Your code is responsible for keeping track of the memory it uses 17:14:28 OK. 17:16:46 * crc is working on some stuff for more advanced memory management, but that'll be quite a while before it's working 17:19:14 Do you plan to ever use multitasking? 17:21:28 yes 17:21:30 cooperative 17:22:18 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 17:36:38 --- quit: saon ("leaving") 17:39:19 --- join: saon (~saon@c-24-129-91-106.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 17:58:05 --- join: crc2 (crc@pool-70-110-206-204.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 17:58:26 --- quit: crc (Nick collision from services.) 17:58:27 --- nick: crc2 -> crc 17:58:30 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 17:58:47 Hi again. 17:58:55 hi 17:58:58 * crc hates windows 17:59:11 Do you plan to continue using low-level Forth, or add high-level extentions? 17:59:32 That depends on what you mean by high-level :) 17:59:44 Ah, belated dist-upgrade: 113 upgraded, 10 newly installed, 1 to remove and 1 not upgraded. 18:00:17 heh 18:00:23 Actually I mean anythnig more traditional F83-ish (possibly with simple structs) 18:00:33 ahh 18:00:49 I have been working on higher-level stuff as part of my library 18:00:57 Neat.. such as? 18:02:40 --- join: crc2 (crc@pool-70-110-206-204.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 18:03:01 --- quit: crc (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:03:04 Even more trouble? 18:03:09 hmm, the dsl signal is a bit unreliable tonight 18:03:13 --- nick: crc2 -> crc 18:03:16 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 18:03:16 Did you get my question about what those high-level things are? 18:03:22 no 18:04:38 I've got some code to create structures 18:05:00 And the start of an rpn lisp subset 18:05:18 Oh? With garbage collection and all? 18:05:26 No GC yet 18:05:30 But I'm working on that :) 18:05:51 Neat. That might be useful in a Forth. 18:06:42 yeah 18:50:42 --- quit: retrobot2 (Remote closed the connection) 18:53:22 Robert: I'm going to be hacking on a virtual memory, and protected memory, with a preemptive multitasking Forth 18:54:34 Sounds nice. 18:54:44 What Forth dialect? 18:54:55 (if I haven't already asked) 19:19:06 I haven't decided yet 19:19:23 my plan is to have 4 gigs of virtual memory for the entire OS.. paged and syncronized to a 4 gig chunk of disk 19:19:43 processes communicate with each other using shared memory 19:20:56 shared libraries are going to vocabularies that are hooked into a process' memory 19:21:18 and right now my idea is to compile when a process is run 19:24:52 Sounds a lot like what I had in mind. 19:25:45 --- join: crc2 (crc@pool-70-110-222-33.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 19:26:58 --- quit: crc2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:31:39 --- quit: crc (Nick collision from services.) 19:50:19 --- join: crc (crc@pool-70-16-157-38.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 19:58:23 --- join: swalters (~swalters@2416457hfc118.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 20:07:58 --- quit: crc (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 21:59:01 hi 22:00:25 sup arke 22:05:05 nothing much 22:05:06 :) 22:12:56 werd. 22:13:05 I'm implementing AES in Forth, and I'm trying to churn through the math 22:26:26 --- quit: virl () 22:47:53 cool 22:48:09 is AES still considered secure? 22:52:17 sure 22:52:34 it's only 2 years old. :) 22:59:03 I can't keep my ciphers straight 23:00:11 I've surfed around, and read about cryptography a bit 23:00:30 I know the general stuff 23:00:53 but not the details on how any of the ciphers work, or which ciphers are good for what 23:01:06 I've read about what ciphers are good, but I forget... 23:01:26 anyway, 23:01:26 --- quit: Herkamire ("off to bed") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.06.26