00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.06.20
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04:34:23 <Robert> Hi
04:34:34 <PoppaVic> Lo
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05:27:28 <saon> crc, you around? or any retroforth coders for that matter?
05:28:11 <Herkamire> tooo early
05:29:09 <PoppaVic> way too early - peeling eyes open is tiresome
05:29:15 <saon> heh
05:29:25 <saon> it's a fluke that i'm up this early as well
05:29:49 <Herkamire> hehe
05:29:58 <saon> figured doing some coding would be good for getting the blood flowing, but, i'm getting segfaults left and right due to lack of experience =/
05:30:07 <Herkamire> I'm usually waking up 2-3 hours from now
05:30:27 <Herkamire> segfault, man's best friend
05:30:32 <saon> hehe
05:30:42 <Herkamire> segfault, man's best opponent
05:31:08 <saon> all i can tell is that there's something i'm doing wrong with the heap
05:31:09 <PoppaVic> I usually find a segfault is a "homer"
05:33:00 <PoppaVic> I'm trying to work up the desire to fix that wall, and reading thru the pfe and pforth source for mind-checking my code.
05:33:49 <saon> ack, i hate when this happens
05:36:01 <saon> hrmm, i wonder why crc doesn't include something like 'map' in rf
05:36:28 <PoppaVic> wtf is 'map' ??
05:36:39 <saon> it lets you map a function to an array
05:36:45 <PoppaVic> oh, bah
05:36:49 <saon> so you don't need to write array-handling code over and over
05:36:54 <saon> it's nice to have
05:37:10 <PoppaVic> umm... you ARE aware this is a forth-variant and writing such code is easy?
05:37:34 <saon> hmm?
05:37:44 <saon> i've already written 'map' for myself
05:37:48 <PoppaVic> s'ok
05:38:12 <PoppaVic> perhaps your solution, sent to him,will hit the optional-wordset bucket
05:40:24 <saon> hrmm, okay, now it seems to be working. must have missed something silly
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05:42:13 <saon> hey virl
05:42:42 <virl> what's going on?
05:46:42 <saon> nm
05:47:28 <PoppaVic> hmm... pfe is akin to my own code, of course pfe is a lot more complete ;-)
05:54:25 <PoppaVic> Interesting...
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06:23:21 <PoppaVic> question: are beheaded words even used anymore? Let alone 'forget'?
06:28:30 <PoppaVic> anyone?
06:29:18 <Robert> COBOL and Fortran are still used, so I assume yes. ;)
06:29:22 <Robert> but now, brb.
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06:30:14 <madwork> Considering the variety of Forths out there, all bets are off. I use 'forget' quite a bit when developing.
06:30:35 <madwork> And retroforth uses a lot of beheaded words.
06:31:01 <PoppaVic> hmmm.. REALLY? wow
06:31:47 <madwork> Why?
06:31:53 <PoppaVic> I've sort of 'forgotten' both.. At one point we had that stupid 'mark' thing, and beheading seemed to be an f83/fpc/fig issue
06:32:27 <PoppaVic> It's only interesting wherein I compare my code/concept to pfe and pforth and such
06:32:34 <madwork> Yea, mark seems inconvenient. I mostly use forget when hacking around interactively, testing, etc.
06:32:41 <PoppaVic> yep
06:32:56 <madwork> I also use 'anew'
06:33:05 <PoppaVic> I vaguely recall it
06:33:38 <madwork> eg. anew program
06:33:48 <madwork> if program already exists, it forgets it, then creates it.
06:33:52 <madwork> Otherwise, it creates it
06:34:12 <PoppaVic> It looks to me like my plan to rely 100% on malloc/free is unique, and that my structs are about 5 times more complex than pfe
06:35:01 <madwork> Using malloc/free 100% of the time to do what? Create dictionary entries?
06:35:07 <PoppaVic> everything, yes
06:35:22 <madwork> I use malloc/free in that respect also.
06:35:34 <PoppaVic> except for the base dict/sys voc, everything else is allocated
06:35:53 <PoppaVic> and I mean struct, not anything else
06:36:07 <PoppaVic> hmm..
06:36:39 <madwork> My dictionary is allocated, code is allocated, stacks are allocated.
06:36:43 <PoppaVic> I suspect I need at least one more complete rewrite. I have NOT done anything to support users 'forget', and I am not sure it's a good idea.
06:37:02 <madwork> I don't see anything wrong with it.
06:37:12 <PoppaVic> well, recall my goal here
06:37:18 <madwork> I just don't allow forget if the call stack isn't balanced with the input stack.
06:37:29 <PoppaVic> hmm
06:37:42 <PoppaVic> what was yer distro again?
06:38:10 <madwork> Well, it's not officially distroed yet, but it's called Forthy... http://sourceforge.net/projects/forthy
06:38:21 <PoppaVic> ok, I recall - no dl was possible
06:38:31 <madwork> Nope, only CVS.
06:38:45 <PoppaVic> yeah, I have avoided cvs for years
06:39:27 <madwork> :)
06:39:39 <madwork> I
06:39:47 <madwork> I will release it before too long, hopefully.
06:39:54 <PoppaVic> I'm also seriously considering a rewrite to employ gc6.4
06:39:56 <madwork> Just... so... busy. :-/
06:40:07 <madwork> gc6.4?
06:40:14 <PoppaVic> Yeah, if I had a job I'd be trashed.
06:40:16 <madwork> Is that a garbage collector?
06:40:22 <PoppaVic> boehm gc, yeah
06:40:31 * madwork doesn't use any GC.
06:40:48 <madwork> But, I don't really support user objects yet.
06:40:57 <PoppaVic> I wasn't going to, but the tracking is getting irksome, and I ain't even got a working test.
06:41:20 <PoppaVic> oh, user objects are not my issue... My issue is that I have so damned many dynamic structs
06:41:48 <madwork> Yea, when I do containers properly, I'll need something.
06:42:12 <madwork> At least an explicit GC sweep. I'm not doing anything in the background.
06:42:29 <madwork> And if they're doing things correctly, they won't have any garbage.
06:42:55 <madwork> ie. don't store a stack inside itself with no other references around. :P
06:43:28 <PoppaVic> I've names, that link TO knowing, but FROM heads, and Heads ref prev and are ref'd to/from bodies; which ref lexicons, heads and prior bodies
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06:43:52 <PoppaVic> knowing/nothing
06:44:15 <PoppaVic> not to mention vtables of func-ptrs
06:45:08 <PoppaVic> and, instead of an 'immediate' flag, I use 3 func-ptr per vtbl ptr: lexing, compiling, execution.
06:45:41 <madwork> Yep.
06:45:47 <PoppaVic> or lex, parse/exec, run
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06:47:03 <PoppaVic> anyway, between databases of structs, and all the xrefs between structs, I'm getting paranoid about cleanup, let alone the idea of allowing a user to 'forget'
06:47:22 <madwork> Yes, sounds a lot more complex than my setup.
06:48:03 <PoppaVic> well, the core here becomes a post-lexer, pre-parser module... And we are trying to allow for extensibility in the minish used by the metabuilder.
06:48:47 <PoppaVic> PLUS, I would dearly love to support .o and plugins/libs
06:49:33 <PoppaVic> otoh, if I switch mindsets to token-code instead of call-code, then obj and libs become semi-moot.
06:50:29 <madwork> Forthy is ITC.
06:50:46 <PoppaVic> still, folks can argue all day long, but generating .o files and using the linker is really a decent solution to a ugly-prob. I'd just need a .obj generator/loader-support
06:51:00 <PoppaVic> token-threaded, you mean?
06:51:07 <madwork> No, indirect threaded.
06:51:13 <PoppaVic> ahh
06:51:19 <PoppaVic> almost the same, slight diff
06:51:25 <madwork> Yea, pretty much.
06:51:42 <madwork> Token threaded would actually be easier to pickle if I wanted to.
06:53:22 <PoppaVic> "pickle" heh.. I remember that
06:53:55 <madwork> I can do it kind of kludgily by using dictionary indexes, so it's not a huge deal.
06:54:04 <madwork> But it does require an extra translation step.
06:54:08 <PoppaVic> Yeah, I'm ambivalent on the issue.. Either we are generating vectors to mem, or we need to generate indices.
06:55:23 <PoppaVic> My biggy is.. So far, I know of absolutely no forth that ties hard to malloc/free, structs and such, let alone leaves lexing and parsing to externals.
06:56:06 <PoppaVic> So, a lot of it is getting yer head poked into forth-space from C/*nix space
06:57:20 * madwork goes the easy route and uses wrapper functions to Forthy's Lua-like stack interface.
06:57:25 <PoppaVic> I've even read an interesting url that mentioned C's that "compiled" forth source that generated asm/mc - it was interesting, but a complete, current C lexer/parser is just not around and not worth my time to write.
06:58:53 <PoppaVic> just keep in mind, I'm working up a module.. to write a limited-shell to be used by a metabuilder to replace autoshit ;-)
06:59:53 <PoppaVic> I'd seriously considered, 2 years back, using gforth for the entire mess. BUT, it seemed too damned painful.
07:01:35 <PoppaVic> the minish needs to be more simpleminded than bash, (not really useful by itself, I mean); but it must share code with the metabuilder (again, not fun interactively).
07:02:25 <PoppaVic> I like interp/compile, but I also am well used to the edit/test-run cycle
07:03:39 <PoppaVic> The kicker is getting a module in place to ACT like forthish voc/word lookup/run - but rely on a lex/yacc lexer/parser or something equiv.
07:08:57 <PoppaVic> Amusing chore, anyway
07:10:00 <madwork> Hmm, sounds fun. ;P
07:10:04 <PoppaVic> yah
07:10:37 <PoppaVic> It's the only way I can see to even remotely deal with infix-like syntax-parsing.
07:11:04 <PoppaVic> unless... hmm
07:11:43 <PoppaVic> Unless someone peered at my tentative-example input 'script' and could see a way to parse it all out ala' forth
07:12:01 <PoppaVic> Sounds quite unlikely
07:12:31 <madwork> You never know. Some people are up for a challenge... just not me. ;)
07:12:36 <PoppaVic> yup
07:12:46 <PoppaVic> no point in asking over & over, either
07:12:51 <PoppaVic> brb
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07:13:00 * madwork has another challenge, namely fixing the broken builds of the guy who left a couple months ago.
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07:25:49 <PoppaVic> back
07:26:08 <PoppaVic> presweep panic ;-)
07:27:22 <madwork> Heh.
07:28:41 <PoppaVic> hrm.. Staring at the current lexer
07:29:05 <PoppaVic> I believe strongly that case/order/form enforcement is a Good Thing.
07:30:56 <PoppaVic> yeah, it makes as much sense now as it did midwinter
07:31:42 <tathi> case/order/form?
07:31:49 <PoppaVic> yeah..
07:32:08 <PoppaVic> Lowercase+digits := keywords
07:32:26 <PoppaVic> UPPERCASE+digits := funcs/macros
07:32:30 <PoppaVic> etc
07:32:41 <tathi> ah
07:33:01 <PoppaVic> light limitations for readability - they complicate lexing, but they seriously make folks _think_
07:33:57 <PoppaVic> http://rafb.net/paste/results/4GiHg037.html
07:34:30 <PoppaVic> This too will need some beating,but I believe the limitations useful
07:38:03 <tathi> hmm... /me doesn't remember how to use lex anymore.
07:38:24 <PoppaVic> it isn't really thrilling, I can now say after a year of tinkering
07:38:59 <PoppaVic> the best I can say is: it makes adjacent/embedded breakout/decomposition easier
07:39:33 <tathi> yeah, I used it back in college for a class on compiler design.
07:39:50 <PoppaVic> well, I truly tried..
07:40:01 <PoppaVic> I'm just not sold on it or yacc
07:41:53 <PoppaVic> while I know that the good ol' forth whitespace-delim is really handy, I just need to ramp it up a bit..
07:42:16 <tathi> yeah, I can see that
07:42:22 <PoppaVic> certain chars always suggest embedding, to me.
07:42:48 <PoppaVic> hmm... here's an example that "works"...
07:43:12 <PoppaVic> http://rafb.net/paste/results/hy9hEW55.html
07:51:23 <PoppaVic> ANyway, that's my living-hell, if it interests or stimulates anyone.
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07:55:29 <PoppaVic> tathi: was it interesting in the least?
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08:11:14 <PoppaVic> hmm
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09:07:07 <alexander_> hey
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09:34:53 <tathi> PoppaVic: oh, yeah, somewhat.
09:35:12 <tathi> I saved it to look at more closely later.
09:35:17 <PoppaVic> ok, cool
09:35:43 <tathi> I was just kind of in the middle of building a scalder
09:36:05 <PoppaVic> np, I'm ready for a nap and then chores
09:36:15 <PoppaVic> stay well, I am off...
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09:41:21 <Herkamire> tathi: to help get the feathers off?
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09:54:23 <tathi> yup.
09:54:42 <tathi> Kermit (the guy we get our feed from) had a bunch of old electric hot-water heaters around
09:54:47 <tathi> and he gave us one
09:56:02 <tathi> I cut the top off and cleaned it out, now I've got to re-wire it with a plug and only the one heating element.
09:58:11 <tathi> then test to see how accurate it is -- the thermostat is on the outside of the tank.
09:58:30 <tathi> I might have to plumb in a submersible one.
09:59:03 <Herkamire> accurate?
09:59:13 <Herkamire> need to get it to calm down when it hits 32 degrees?
09:59:51 <tathi> yeah, basically.
10:00:18 <tathi> need the water temperature to stay between 145-150 degrees F or so.
10:02:19 <Herkamire> hmmm... yeah, 32 insn't boiling
10:02:46 <Herkamire> oh dear.
10:02:56 <Herkamire> better eat something or go to sleep or maybe both
10:03:04 <tathi> heh
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11:27:15 <Herkamire> gah! I hate it when orderforms ask for your credit card before they tell you what the total is
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12:31:53 <arke> blog  updated ;)
13:25:48 * Robert hoorays
13:26:03 <PayphoneEd> Hey, can you /dns www.homestarrunner.com for me?
13:27:19 <Robert> 66.118.170.25
13:27:34 <Robert> However, pinging it generates a ton of duplicated packets.
13:27:42 <tathi> heh.
13:27:52 <tathi> I can't reach their nameservers
13:27:59 <PayphoneEd> Thanks.
13:28:07 <Robert> PING homestarrunner.com (66.118.170.25) 56(84) bytes of data.
13:28:07 <Robert> 64 bytes from unknown.sagonet.net (66.118.170.25): icmp_seq=1 ttl=117 time=159 ms
13:28:17 <PayphoneEd> Hm.
13:28:27 <PayphoneEd> I'm not reaching anything from here either, unfortunately.
13:41:19 <tathi> grr...this thermostat isn't going to work for my purposes.
13:41:43 <tathi> oh well, easy enough to switch things on and off by hand.
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13:46:46 <Herkamire> just a thermometer then
13:51:26 <tathi> yeah, I'll get a better automatic control system, but not by next Saturday, I'm sure.
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14:36:21 <Robert> Hi
14:39:30 <qFox> hey
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16:09:30 <crc> hi all
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16:19:56 <Snoopy42> hi crc
16:20:37 <Snoopy42> I was wondering about your "resume" word,
16:21:40 <Snoopy42> if RF sould run on diferent CPUs some time, shouldn't there be a word to determine the length of a word?
16:23:20 <crc> It's hard to know where a word ends...
16:23:35 <crc> I might add a length field to the dictionary sometime though
16:23:42 <Snoopy42> sorry, wrong channel. Switching over to #retro ;-)
16:24:02 <crc> :)
16:24:07 <crc> saon: ping
16:31:36 <Robert> CQ coding slave?
16:32:23 <crc> ?
16:32:28 <crc> Hi Robert
16:34:43 <Robert> Hi :)
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17:57:45 <crc> goodnight
17:58:02 <madgarden> teh good teh nite
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19:13:25 <jkk> hi
19:14:29 <Herkamire> hi
19:14:44 <jkk> hows it going tonight
19:16:44 <Herkamire> whiny
19:16:52 <Herkamire> my head hurts
19:17:24 <Herkamire> just sitting here thinking of things to do and deciding not to do them
19:17:43 <jkk> i am porting some stuff to picforth
19:17:53 <Herkamire> cool
19:17:56 <jkk> i am about to write a bytecode interpreter
19:18:03 <jkk> and add floating point to picforth ;)
19:18:19 <Herkamire> ??
19:18:31 <alexander_> hey
19:18:40 <jkk> picforth is for Microchip Corp PIC 16F88s... they are 8 bit micros....
19:18:44 <jkk> no floating point for sure
19:18:55 <alexander_> is it a full interactive Forth?
19:19:05 <jkk> no unfortunately
19:19:07 <Herkamire> I was guessing picforth was for the PIC chips
19:19:13 <Herkamire> fp must be ungodly slow
19:19:20 <Herkamire> why why why?
19:19:32 <jkk> its for the higher level language user
19:19:38 <Herkamire> do those things even have hardware multiply?
19:19:51 <jkk> dont think so ;)
19:19:55 <alexander_> jkk: how do you interact with it?
19:20:02 <jkk> the floating point is already written I just have to wrap forth around it
19:20:21 <jkk> you write a forth program and picforth compiles it to machine code...
19:20:41 <jkk> i think the compiler can run interactively but it is not interactive with the target
19:20:42 <Herkamire> maybe I'll go soak my head in a bucket of cold water
19:20:43 <alexander_> on a third-party host?
19:20:45 <jkk> (the compiler runs in gforth)
19:20:47 <alexander_> yah
19:20:53 <alexander_> that's what my AVR forth is like
19:20:56 <alexander_> that needs to change
19:20:59 <jkk> yeah
19:21:44 <jkk> i need to learn AVRs.... 
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19:22:10 <alexander_> they're great
19:23:16 <jkk> i am ready for a bigger, flatter space than in the pics
19:23:48 <alexander_> you probably want ARM them
19:23:50 <alexander_> er then
19:24:04 <jkk> i thought the avrs had flat ram access
19:24:14 <jkk> and a fair chunk of ram
19:24:45 <jkk> unlike PIC with 512 bytes paged into 4 banks containing special registers sprinkled in ;)
19:25:00 <alexander_> yah, the AVRs are clean
19:25:12 <alexander_> but the ARMs will allow you to write your own machine code to RAM, and execute it
19:25:37 <jkk> yeah thats one reason i am writing an interpreter, so i can read user code out of serial eeprom and run it
19:25:42 <jkk> since i cant program the code space
19:28:37 <zoly> hi
19:29:39 <zoly> jkk:  supposedly you fill code space with mostly primitives. hi level words need not to be executable, from cpu point of view
19:30:19 <zoly> the mega640 looks like a formidable forth device to me
19:31:27 <jkk> does it have nice stack hardware or something
19:31:29 <zoly> here's an overview of flash, eeprom and ram per device:  http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?module=FreaksDevices&func=viewDev&famId=2
19:31:29 <alexander_> zoly: that's how my AVR forth is.
19:32:07 <alexander_> all of the low-level stuff is cross compiled on the host
19:32:13 <alexander_> and then you can define highlevel words on the device
19:32:24 <zoly> i managed to make a pic (small one, 16c73) programmable that way
19:32:52 <zoly> well, just 80 bytes free hi-level code space 
19:33:22 <alexander_> how did you do word-name look-ups?
19:33:25 <jkk> i assume its how the basic stamp type devices run
19:33:35 <jkk> how many BASIC ops/sec do they get btw
19:33:47 <zoly> alexander_:  the pic didn't do that, i stored the headers on another controller in the same device :)
19:34:01 * jkk is shooting for 20k interpreter step/s on 20mhz pic
19:34:10 <alexander_> zoly: ah, yah
19:34:22 <zoly> sort of in-system tethering
19:35:04 <zoly> pic was the run time component
19:35:25 <zoly> the other controller was running forth as well
19:39:12 <alexander_> cool
19:39:29 <alexander_> is it pretty typical for parse to always write to a counted string to hhere?
19:40:17 <zoly> parse? no. word did
19:40:24 <zoly> parse often returns addr cnt
19:41:34 <zoly> well, word *does* but with parse i'd consider word obsolescent
19:41:58 <alexander_> er, I meant word, but cool..
19:44:14 <zoly> i reckon it became out of fashion when it became popular to seperate headers
19:45:02 <zoly> i.e. post-f83
19:45:21 <alexander_> yah
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19:59:58 <alexander_> so I realized the inherent problem with forth
20:00:18 <alexander_> it's so transparent, that the full capabilities of the programmers shine through
20:00:50 <zoly> therefore we need worse languages, or better programmers ?
20:01:04 <alexander_> better programmers
20:01:36 <zoly> many programmers are doing good jobs with other languages
20:01:48 <alexander_> that's because the compiler usually saves their bacon
20:02:07 <zoly> so they can concentrate on what is essential ?
20:03:19 <alexander_> maybe, but I think the current generation of processors has been developed to compensate for them.
20:04:31 <zoly> that's higher speed those deliver, but not lower skill requirements
20:04:59 <alexander_> sure they do, you can write suckier and suckier code, and it'll still run at speeds decent enough for people to not complain
20:05:41 <zoly> good or bad programming does not merely differ by execution time
20:06:18 <zoly> or we'd all have to use native code compilers
20:07:15 <alexander_> I don't think you're getting what I'm saying/I'm not explaining myself.
20:07:20 <zoly> oh, i do
20:07:32 <zoly> i just like to take opposite positions
20:07:57 <zoly> or, try to turn ppls arguments against them :)
20:08:20 <alexander_> you're not going to do that with me, I'm just going to get bored arguing with you because you're trolling me. :)
20:08:41 <alexander_> anyhow, that's my opinion.
20:09:28 <zoly> you know, there's people having difficulties with some forths because of their attitude "i program forth, therefore i am a better programmer"
20:09:36 <zoly> forthers ...
20:09:48 <alexander_> yah
20:09:50 <zoly> i try not to slip into the same attitude
20:10:25 <alexander_> well, I mean usually they are better programmers.. just like Lisp people are usually more advanced programmers.
20:10:40 <zoly> therefore your initial line invited me to take on counterposition
20:11:07 <alexander_> my initial line was a statement of fact
20:11:11 <alexander_> I'm not a very good forther.
20:11:19 <alexander_> so I wasn't insinuating things
20:11:28 <alexander_> sorry, not fact.. a statement about an observation I had
20:11:47 <zoly> indeed, it was me suggesting this line of thought
20:12:02 <zoly> nothing wrong with your statement
20:12:29 <zoly> consider it an act of provocation
20:15:14 <alexander_> I got a new contracting gig I want to use Forth on
20:15:22 <alexander_> the existing software is all C++
20:16:18 <alexander_> I mentioned Forth at the interview, and the interviewer started laughing
20:16:20 <zoly> a rewrite ?
20:16:25 <alexander_> yah
20:17:14 <zoly> c++ means, not on small hardware ?
20:17:27 <alexander_> it's a coldfire chip, so not insanely small
20:17:30 <alexander_> but not big at all
20:18:31 <zoly> whats the harder constraint, speed or size ?
20:19:35 <alexander_> speed probably, combined with speed of development
20:21:34 <zoly> there's people, trying no to mention forth in the initial interview
20:22:05 <alexander_> yah, I pretty much already had the gig
20:22:09 <alexander_> and they hired me anyway
20:22:14 <zoly> cause not all reactions tend to be enthusiastic about it
20:22:18 <alexander_> but I just thought it was interesting that the dude laughed.
20:23:32 <zoly> development speed can be a strong point
20:23:40 <alexander_> yah
20:23:51 <alexander_> okay, time for some pho
20:23:51 <alexander_> bbl
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20:43:37 <LOOP-HOG> anybody home/
20:47:54 <zoly> hi LOOP-HOG 
20:48:02 <LOOP-HOG> what's up?
20:48:05 <zoly> no, not@home
20:48:18 <LOOP-HOG> work?
20:48:21 <zoly> 700 km from home
20:48:26 <LOOP-HOG> oh
20:48:34 <zoly> just normal mode
20:48:53 <zoly> not been home for about 2 years now
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22:32:16 <alexander_> re..
22:32:46 <jkk> re
22:32:57 <jkk> it is easier than i thought to port assembly to forth...
22:33:23 <jkk> but i had to go through looking for shit like "subtract then check carry" and replace with "<"
22:33:28 <alexander_> how's your assembler?
22:33:37 <jkk> its ok for this pic platform
22:33:42 <jkk> simple instruction set
22:33:58 <alexander_> oh, duh, I read what you wrote wrong
22:34:04 <alexander_> I thought you were doing your assembling in a forth
22:34:28 <jkk> not doing any assembling myself ;)
22:34:51 <alexander_> yah
22:35:11 <alexander_> I'm doing cross compiling in isforth now
22:37:07 <jkk> if i write a compiler or assembler it will probably be in python or ruby
22:38:10 <alexander_> if you ever want to be able to compile your own machine words, it's better to do it in forth
22:38:20 <alexander_> (assuming you've got a chip with the power to make that happen)
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22:48:23 <alexander_> there's two areas I suck at Forth
22:48:34 <alexander_> a) history (knowing what words are named what, which do what)
22:48:39 <alexander_> and b) a feeling for how to factor
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.06.20