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04:25:53 <PoppaVic> Mornin'
04:26:20 <Stepan> Hi PoppaVic 
04:26:32 <PoppaVic> What's the latest?
04:26:54 <Stepan> nut'n big
04:27:47 <PoppaVic> heh.. I'll be suprised if I write even one line of code today
04:28:18 <Stepan> I bet I wont.. it's really getting summer here now
04:28:51 <PoppaVic> Gotta' fix the shower-tiles today... Being short a shower is a pita.
04:29:51 <Stepan> shower-tiles?
04:30:02 <Stepan> did your shower break down?
04:30:40 <PoppaVic> we seem to have had a few very small holes thru the grout in the corner.. I had the tiles fall out and the drywall behind was soaked and crumbled.
04:30:44 <Stepan> I saw pictures of the usual showers in Brazil.. adventurous
04:31:19 <PoppaVic> heh.. I'm easy, I like a shower for a fast clean.. Personally, I prefer a nice, hot tub; a book and my smokes.
04:31:20 <Stepan> gee... had something similar in my old flat.. but i decided the best way around it is move ;)
04:31:44 <Stepan> You're smoking in the tub? :-)
04:31:46 <PoppaVic> THis is our homestead - Ma's house.
04:32:09 <Stepan> then fixing is better than moving indeed
04:32:12 <PoppaVic> I lay back with a coffee, a book and a smoke.. ANd I soak UP that lovely hot water ;-)
04:32:35 <Stepan> my old landlady was like "fix everything that hurts you. i dont care. i dont pay"
04:32:58 <PoppaVic> yeah, I laugh - they destroy the plant-assests and charge more to the next guy
04:34:17 <PoppaVic> As I told Ma' - if I was to own/inherit the house, I'd get peeved and number every tile; then pull it all and replace the walboard behind it all first.. As is, Ijust want everything back to operational.
04:35:22 <PoppaVic> Well, this module looks like I have about tinkered all I can at this point... I have to step UP a level to begin doing anything useful with it.
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04:37:11 <PoppaVic> Stepan: how far did you have to code up before it became self-sustaining?
04:38:19 <Stepan> as you might remember I cheated, implementing the most important words for dictionary handling in C.... : ; variable constant ... some more
04:38:28 <PoppaVic> right
04:39:09 <PoppaVic> Still, to even do that - I believe I need to get past the dict support and get busy on the script layer over it. This will allow for nest/denest andsuch
04:40:11 <PoppaVic> Until there, all we have is structures and support for C and lookup, etc. - and backrefs/xrefs
04:48:49 <Stepan> you can reduce if you keep a certain order in the definitions..
04:49:17 <Stepan> for example all conditionals can be self contained.. given that you define them early
04:53:06 <PoppaVic> hmm
04:53:39 <PoppaVic> you mean as primitives, before we ever get to names/heads
04:53:59 <PoppaVic> Yes. I've considered that approach
05:00:00 <Stepan> no, not as primitives..
05:00:28 <PoppaVic> oh.. Then I am not in a position to do so, yet.
05:02:36 <PayphoneEd> TONY ROBBINS HUNGRY!
05:04:14 <PayphoneEd> Ooooh, ooooh, I've got an evil idea! Write a Forth compiler... IN C++
05:04:16 <PayphoneEd> MWAHAHAHA
05:04:18 <PayphoneEd> X3
05:04:58 <PayphoneEd> Or maybe...
05:05:03 <PayphoneEd> A C++ COMPILER IN FORTH
05:05:17 <PayphoneEd> <repeat evil laugh>
05:05:46 <Stepan> PoppaVic: you're working on your primitives?
05:05:59 <Stepan> is the "scheduling" therE?
05:06:06 <PoppaVic> not yet.. I have to finish the next .h/.c pair - for scripts
05:06:14 <PayphoneEd> >.>
05:06:16 <PayphoneEd> <.<
05:06:21 <PayphoneEd> FINE! Just ignore me...
05:06:23 * PayphoneEd cries
05:06:47 <Stepan> hat kind of scripts?
05:06:54 <PoppaVic> However, I've got vtables all over the place and the current level of code merely needs the programmer to create the db-access structs of func-ptrs
05:07:15 <PayphoneEd> :(
05:07:21 <PoppaVic> I've considered token and call-threaded scripts.. For now, tis easier to consider call-threading
05:08:18 <PayphoneEd> The humor quotient certainly runs extremely thin in here.
05:08:21 <PoppaVic> I may yet need to completely - once more - beat everything from the bottom up.
05:08:30 <PayphoneEd> That's _really_ not good for your health, you know.
05:10:09 <PoppaVic> Just perused an interesting url... Suggesting C compiling forth-source to feed for assembly or whatever.. Interesting.
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05:45:28 <PoppaVic> Stepan: still awake?
05:48:05 <Stepan> yep
05:48:52 <Stepan> PayphoneEd: Compiling C to Forth has been done before..
05:49:01 <Stepan> Some other interesting stuff as well
05:49:19 <PoppaVic> c++ based forth is also old
05:49:34 <PoppaVic> forth FROM C is interesting
05:50:13 <PoppaVic> Stepan: I was going to ask... Are 2(+) "stacks" really necessary?
05:50:29 <PoppaVic> Given we already think of "stack frame" in C?
05:51:03 <PoppaVic> I'm considering a data-stack, certainly.
05:51:09 <Stepan> They're not, IMHO. But they make life a whole lot easier
05:51:22 <PoppaVic> Yeah, for internal-stepping, I presume?
05:51:51 <Stepan> say, you share one stack for returns and data..
05:52:00 <PoppaVic> we do, in asm and C
05:52:01 <Stepan> then you call a word,...
05:52:09 <PoppaVic> right - new stackframe
05:52:17 <Stepan> but your C compiler handles that for you
05:52:21 <PoppaVic> yes
05:53:00 <Stepan> in C it's trivial to say "move the value 10 down the stack to the value 5 down the stack and add the value 32 down the stack to that. then return
05:53:20 <Stepan> imagine what a mess that would be in forth, with the default stack operators
05:53:26 <PoppaVic> The *only* reasons I can see a ret-stack are: 1) Gymnastics; 2) voodoo shortcircuits
05:54:17 <Stepan> the reason is that there is no such thing as a stack frame in the common forths
05:54:18 <PoppaVic> recall my viewpoint here, though: Written in C to extend interactive/lexer-parser languages.
05:56:38 <Stepan> if you can manage to use the C stack as your return stack you can forget any trouble you'd hve to go through otherwise
05:57:59 <PoppaVic> yeah.. I'm pondering it
06:00:14 <PoppaVic> The only oddity I can see so far is maybe learning the arrangement made (per machine) to pervert it.
06:00:44 <PoppaVic> and, of course, nothing sez I can't use several stacks as utilities.
06:03:04 <Stepan> sure.. implementing another one is quickly done
06:03:53 <PoppaVic> Yah..
06:04:17 <PoppaVic> I'm considering a basic "data stack" as a member of the Dictionary struct.
06:04:33 <PoppaVic> well, it'd be my Queue struct, but it works as queue and stack
06:05:54 <PoppaVic> a true 'stack' can be a real PITA because of the sze of data, let alone the whole "void* size" arguments
06:07:39 <PoppaVic> In the case of a true stack, I'd use a union.. The alternatives are all pretty ugly.
06:08:58 <Stepan> But isnt a queue FIFO, while a stack is FILO
06:09:00 <Stepan> ?
06:09:33 <PoppaVic> ns: my queue-struct is a DLL struct - with push/pop and head/tail insertion/extraction ops
06:10:19 <PoppaVic> ..because I just KNEW I'd need a stack today and a queue tomorrow
06:11:06 <PoppaVic> An adaptaion of the existing code would enable us to use a limited-space
06:32:46 <PoppaVic> Stepan: amusing source, isn't it?
06:34:27 <PoppaVic> Stepan: if, in your surfing, you manage to find some links to that weird idea of C-generating-forth, please email me the links... I find the idea sort of amusing.
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07:26:27 <PoppaVic> Back, sorry
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08:38:10 <PoppaVic> back
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11:39:09 <crc> Hi everyone
11:52:50 <saon> heya crc
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13:53:36 <arke> http://kennethhunt.com/archives/000836.html
13:59:57 <arke> http://www.planettribes.com/allyourbase/b/drop.jpg
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14:11:12 <alexander_> hey
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17:19:48 * PayphoneEd yawns
17:20:36 <crc> it's pretty quiet on the weekends....
17:21:50 <PayphoneEd> It's not too loud in here anyway.
17:22:00 <PayphoneEd> I should learn more programming languages.
17:22:05 <crc> heh
17:22:15 <PayphoneEd> I'd ask if Forth is a good one, but there's a very high bias factor here. ;3
17:22:15 <crc> #c4th-ot is normally a bit more active than #forth
17:22:36 * crc uses Forth, LISP, and assembly primarily
17:22:45 <PayphoneEd> I use C++ in my Uni classes.
17:22:54 <PayphoneEd> Not the best, I suppose, but it works.
17:23:03 <crc> I sometimes use C for apps
17:23:13 <PayphoneEd> Once you learn one you have the groundwork for them all, really...
17:23:18 <crc> hmm
17:23:40 <PayphoneEd> It's just a matter of learning the syntaxes of a new one.
17:23:49 <crc> not always
17:23:56 <PayphoneEd> Most of the time.
17:24:04 <PayphoneEd> I know C++ and BASIC.
17:24:05 <crc> depends on the language
17:24:19 <PayphoneEd> C++ was learned, BASIC was self-taught
17:24:19 <crc> So you can learn any Algol-style language easily then
17:24:39 <sproingie> haskell might be tricky :)
17:24:40 <crc> But C++ and BASIC won't help you lean to use LISP
17:24:44 <sproingie> sure it would
17:24:51 <crc> how?
17:24:55 <sproingie> common lisp is an imperative language
17:24:55 <PayphoneEd> I can program pretty good in BASIC, I made a really nice Guess The Number game in TI-82+ BASIC.
17:25:05 <sproingie> and he'll love the "syntax sugar for function pointers"
17:25:14 <crc> sproingie: LISP 1.5, not CL ;)
17:25:14 <sproingie> closures might be tricky, but most CL doesn't use them
17:25:15 <PayphoneEd> I also made another one in CC-40 BASIC.
17:25:20 * crc doesn't like CL
17:25:34 <PayphoneEd> I'm an OS fanatic, I collect them.
17:25:40 <PayphoneEd> Like I collect old computers.
17:25:52 <crc> collecting is a nice thing to do...
17:25:58 <sproingie> crc why don't you like COMMON-LISP?  I-DONT-SEE-HOW-ANYONE-COULD-HATE-SUCH-A-TERSE-LANGUAGE
17:26:02 <crc> heh
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17:26:04 <PayphoneEd> My "crown jewels" are the copy of AT&T Unix System V Release 4.1 on 28 diskettes...
17:26:06 <crc> that's why I hate it :)
17:26:11 <PayphoneEd> And an ISO of A/UX 2.0
17:26:18 <sproingie> I-PERSONALLY-HAVE-NO-PROBLEM-WITH-IT
17:26:22 <sproingie> ahem
17:26:29 <PayphoneEd> I actually bought three boxes of diskettes for SVR4.1
17:26:39 <PayphoneEd> Dedicated diskettes, too.
17:26:46 <PayphoneEd> Unfortunately it can't handle LBA.
17:26:53 <crc> :(
17:27:02 <crc> LBA makes things a lot easier....
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17:27:06 <PayphoneEd> So I need an old 386 preferably.
17:27:14 <sproingie> crc: the runtime of most lisps is more advanced than are dreamt of in your philosophies ... at least for any C++ hacker that is
17:27:22 <PayphoneEd> crc: Yeah, SVR4.1 will panic on boot if the primary HDD is LBA.
17:27:24 <sproingie> it's just the syntax that's monstrous
17:27:42 <PayphoneEd> PANIC: HDD controller: command aborted
17:27:48 <PayphoneEd> Something like that.
17:27:55 <crc> sproingie: true
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17:28:10 <PayphoneEd> I don't like programming as an assignment.
17:28:12 <crc> but the language structures are quite different
17:28:13 * sproingie is looking at a language called Qi, built on top of CL, features pattern matching and sequent types
17:28:15 <PayphoneEd> I like to do my own thing.
17:28:28 <PayphoneEd> I wish I had an old VAX...
17:28:58 <PayphoneEd> Oh, here's a game. Guess what my favorite XScreensaver hack is. :3
17:29:37 <sproingie> PayphoneEd: basically there's three ways to go as a programmer.  one is with CS languages like haskell, epigram, coq (almost all of 'em pure functional).  the opposite is as a corporate code grinder, with C++ and Java.  The third is with hacking friendly scripty languages like perl and ruby
17:30:01 <PayphoneEd> I'm not gonna be a programmer primarily.
17:30:12 <PayphoneEd> Computer Engineering Technology student.
17:30:14 <sproingie> PayphoneEd: to some degree the CS and hacking language communities are starting to merge, i.e. perl6 is mostly written in haskell
17:30:31 <PayphoneEd> Which is basically EET with a built-in CS minor.
17:30:41 * crc wants a NeXT Cube
17:30:47 <sproingie> ew, why?
17:30:55 <PayphoneEd> lol
17:31:17 <sproingie> they were underpowered when they were new.  decent OS, lots of brain damage in it tho, weak hardware
17:31:26 <crc> sproingie: which of those three ways would Forth fit into?
17:32:31 <sproingie> crc: industry.  embedded industry mostly.  forth as a hobby's more of a hacker language thing
17:32:42 <sproingie> emphasis on letting you do your own thing, damn the theory and damn the rules
17:32:51 <PayphoneEd> DAMN STRAIGHT!
17:32:52 <crc> sounds about right :)
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17:33:07 <sproingie> there's overlap in all of 'em
17:33:16 <sproingie> and snide communities like lisp that think they're all things to all camps
17:33:25 <PayphoneEd> lol
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17:33:59 * crc was a lisper once...
17:34:09 <sproingie> apparently lisp is so amazingly productive, it's impossible to port
17:34:24 <crc> heh
17:34:27 <sproingie> cmucl's doing well on windows, no?
17:34:37 <PayphoneEd> lol
17:34:40 * crc used Scheme a bit, and LISP 1.5 on PDP-11 emulators
17:34:59 <crc> I'd love to get a Symbolics Lisp Machine someday
17:35:08 <sproingie> you can get an emulator
17:35:20 <crc> for a symbolics lisp machine?
17:35:21 <sproingie> it'll probably outrun the actual machine
17:35:24 <crc> where?
17:35:51 <sproingie> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/view/336
17:36:09 <sproingie> ah, it's an MIT lisp machine tho
17:36:11 <sproingie> not symbolics
17:36:19 <crc> CADR was cool
17:36:43 <PayphoneEd> I love emulation.
17:36:47 <crc> Not as fancy as the Symbolics stuff
17:36:54 <crc> but still nice
17:36:59 <sproingie> main problem with emulating is the hardware tagging support
17:37:44 <PayphoneEd> I liked the simpler days. When there was no copy protection.
17:37:50 <PayphoneEd> Windows 3.1? No guards at all.
17:38:13 <sproingie> most of the lisp machine folks would call that a collossal step backward
17:38:35 <PayphoneEd> "Why pay for it when it's so easy to steal?"
17:38:37 <sproingie> i submit that you could probably still do tagging pretty efficiently in emulation
17:38:48 <PayphoneEd> Copy protection just gives someone a challenge.
17:38:48 <PayphoneEd> :3
17:38:49 <sproingie> these machines were never all that fast
17:41:55 <crc> true
17:42:14 <crc> that's one of the costs of using microcode
17:42:26 <PayphoneEd> Hey, give me an old box and I can still do plenty with it. :3
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17:42:50 <crc> me too
17:43:11 <PayphoneEd> Komugi is my Toshiba T1200 PC/XT Compatible laptop.
17:43:32 <PayphoneEd> 640k RAM + 384k that can be used as a RAMdisk...
17:43:37 <PayphoneEd> Real time clock...
17:44:21 <PayphoneEd> 20MB Hard drive...
17:44:36 <PayphoneEd> Which is still less than 25% full, mind you...
17:45:22 <crc> heh
17:45:41 * crc is starting to get into custom hardware a bit
17:45:54 <PayphoneEd> I just like anything I can get.
17:46:00 <PayphoneEd> Pocket computers are the best.
17:46:46 * crc has a Jornada 680 that fits in his pocket...
17:46:54 <PayphoneEd> lol
17:46:57 <crc> that's a nifty device to have :)
17:47:21 <PayphoneEd> I have plenty of pants that I could probably fit a laptop or two into but those don't count.
17:47:37 <PayphoneEd> Well, except Piyoko here...
17:47:54 <PayphoneEd> 17" screen on a laptop, takes a large case. :3
17:48:48 <PayphoneEd> Piyoko is one hell of a powerhouse laptop.
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17:50:03 <PayphoneEd> Tried to use my sysinfo and XChat must have segfaulted.
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17:50:34 <crc> heh
17:51:30 <PayphoneEd> vendor_id	: GenuineIntel
17:51:30 <PayphoneEd> model name	: Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.66GHz
17:53:16 <PayphoneEd> Linux Piyoko 2.6.12-rc6-Pyocola-i686 #2 Tue Jun 7 21:17:48 EST 2005 i686 Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.66GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux
17:53:21 <PayphoneEd> Linux version 2.6.12-rc6-Pyocola-i686 (root@Pyoko) (gcc version 3.3.5-20050130 (Gentoo 3.3.5.20050130-r1, ssp-3.3.5.20050130-1, pie-8.7.7.1)) #2 Tue Jun 7 21:17:48 EST 2005
17:53:30 <PayphoneEd> Mmmm... Pie.
17:53:58 <PayphoneEd> This kernel was compiled before I finally decided to correct Piyoko's hostname.
17:53:58 <PayphoneEd> lol
17:54:58 <PayphoneEd> Ever do this? It's pretty cool.
17:55:08 <PayphoneEd> cat /dev/kcore > /dev/dsp
17:56:15 <PayphoneEd> Mmmmmm, delicious Amiga chipmusic....
17:59:02 <crc> heh
17:59:41 <crc> cat /bin/rf >/dev/dsp
17:59:45 <crc> musicforth :)
18:00:15 <PayphoneEd> lol
18:00:37 <PayphoneEd> I love the bash shell.
18:00:44 <PayphoneEd> So much better than... the other ones.
18:00:54 <PayphoneEd> I can't live without tab completion anymore.
18:00:58 * crc is starting to prefer using forth as his shell
18:01:02 <PayphoneEd> It's better than trying to search.
18:01:16 <crc> heh
18:01:20 <PayphoneEd> ls /usr/bin/fo*tab*
18:01:34 <PayphoneEd> That doesn't work, hit it again and you get a list.
18:01:45 * crc doesn't have a /usr on his linux box :)
18:01:52 <PayphoneEd> :o
18:02:32 <crc> All binaries are in /bin :)
18:02:35 <PayphoneEd> lol
18:02:56 <crc> Actually, the number of binaries is dropping as I slowly rewrite the utilities in forth
18:03:39 <crc> I'll eventually just have 'rf' :)
18:04:04 <PayphoneEd> >.>
18:06:07 <PayphoneEd> I like setting the flip-digit clocks in thrift stores to 4:20. :3
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.06.18