00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.06.14
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03:58:37 <PoppaVic> Mornin'
04:00:06 <nothingmuch> good mornin
04:00:07 <nothingmuch> g
04:00:49 <PoppaVic> howdy
04:26:08 <Serg_Penguin> where's Robert ? was he seen at #forth recently ?
04:26:08 <Serg_Penguin> his site is down. i wanna ask him a ham radio question
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05:26:41 <PoppaVic> Hrmm... quandry
05:27:05 <PoppaVic> ANyone familiar with "wordlists", as opposed to vocabularies?
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05:42:43 <PayphoneEd> I'm looking for information on a Forth derivitave used on the Panasonic HHC known as SNAP...
05:43:49 <PayphoneEd> Googling for any such information has either turned up nothing or bogus results due to the fact that the word(s) is(are) too common.
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05:59:20 <PoppaVic> programming forth +snap
06:00:51 <PayphoneEd> Already tried and failed.
06:01:14 <PoppaVic> programming language +snap +HHC
06:03:46 <PayphoneEd> Nothing.
06:04:01 <PoppaVic> switch to google, because I found a ton.
06:05:28 <PayphoneEd> I am using Google, are you checking the results, by chance?
06:05:44 <PayphoneEd> Just because there's a lot of results doesn't mean they're all relevant in the least.
06:05:49 <PoppaVic> all I did was the search. It worked
06:06:35 <PayphoneEd> Well I'm sorry, it didn't work because all your results were completely irrelevant to what I was looking for.
06:07:08 <PoppaVic> tanstaafl
06:07:31 <PayphoneEd> Pardon me?
06:07:36 <PoppaVic> Good Luck
06:08:14 <PayphoneEd> There is however such a thing as poor help.
06:08:22 <PoppaVic> indeed
06:08:36 <PayphoneEd> Anyone else with info on this programming language is welcome to contact me.
06:09:37 <PayphoneEd> Away ->
06:49:30 <madwork> PayphoneEd, I seem to get a lot of hits googling for: Panasonic RL-H1400 manual
06:50:50 <PoppaVic> lo, mad
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06:57:02 <madwork> Hi ya.
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06:57:13 <madwork> Hi.
06:57:21 <PoppaVic> darn it - poking the wrong buttons
06:57:37 <PoppaVic> hiya - ever get a chance to review that (now old) code?
06:58:32 <madwork> I briefly popped open one of the source files when I initially downloaded it, but I never had a chance to give it a proper looking over.
06:58:43 <PoppaVic> OK
06:59:02 <PoppaVic> Well, I've continued tweakage
07:01:43 <arke> PoppaVic: your nick seems familiar, but I dont remember where from .. :)
07:02:04 <PoppaVic> prolly C
07:02:09 <madwork> arke, there was a character in Dragonball Z called Spopovitch...
07:02:35 <arke> PoppaVic: OOh RPKTK :D
07:02:51 <PoppaVic> yah, long long ago
07:03:02 <arke> yeah, I'm rk :)
07:03:10 <arke> (wow, that was like 3 years ago..)
07:03:11 <PoppaVic> hell, I don't even recall wtf we were doing there
07:03:44 <arke> I remember a toolkit, but I don't know why
07:03:45 <arke> :D
07:05:06 <arke> anyway, off to work I go...
07:05:07 <arke> adios
07:05:11 <arke> err, not work, school
07:05:16 <arke> (duh)
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09:40:57 <true-grue> hello to all forthers :)
09:41:03 <alexander_> yoh
09:49:12 <ASau> Good evening!
09:52:11 <true-grue> Asau, Yes! :) Do you know what is the best forth dialect for scripting in C? Like Ficl, i mean
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10:02:20 <ASau> I do scripting in Gforth.
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10:03:06 <ASau> BTW, I've heard of Medlux.
10:03:43 <true-grue> Asau, Thanks! ... Really? And what did you heard? :)
10:04:10 <ASau> I can't recall why this name is known to me.
10:04:46 <ASau> Tourclub, possibly.
10:06:18 <true-grue> Asau, no, no!  it's a Moscow' drugstores database ;)
10:07:02 <ASau> I mean, someone from our tourclub is employed there.
10:07:08 <ASau> Or kind of.
10:07:43 <true-grue> ASau, hmm... Are you russian? :)
10:08:07 <ASau> I'm near MSU now.
10:08:29 <ASau> 15-20 min walk.
10:09:27 <ASau> man whois
10:11:01 <true-grue> ASau, whois? i know how it works, thanks :)
10:12:31 <ASau> Well, you should know where I am. :)
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10:16:02 <true-grue> ASau, i don't like to spy for ip :) 
10:17:01 <true-grue> spy on ip :)
10:18:16 <true-grue> Asau, btw, do you read SU.FORTH news conference?
10:18:29 <ASau> Yes.
10:19:28 <ASau> There's nothing for today, it seems.
10:19:38 <true-grue> ASau, And write to?
10:19:44 <ASau> No.
10:19:59 <ASau> I have nothing to write there.
10:20:12 <ASau> Hmm.
10:20:48 <ASau> I do look for DragonForth authors.
10:20:59 <true-grue> ASau, Me too.. Currently.
10:21:15 <true-grue> Asau, Simple write to Cherezov
10:21:22 <ASau> I have several patches to their library code.
10:21:37 <ASau> ac @ rufig?
10:21:48 <true-grue> Asau, yes
10:21:49 <ASau> That's interesting idea.
10:22:43 <true-grue> Channel #concatenative is seems to be dead..
10:23:27 <ASau> I don't understand its existence.
10:24:32 <true-grue> ASau, well, i think it's about JOY & FACTOR.. "concatenative" .. strange terminology
10:29:01 <ASau> I'm sorry for silence --- forthing.
10:30:57 <ASau> As I understand, you're coding for PalmOS too, aren't you?
10:30:58 <true-grue> ASau, cool! :) well, then i will continue my own work. Creating own stack language for musical purposes 
10:31:34 <true-grue> ASau, No.. I have only Casio PocketViewer :)
10:31:54 <ASau> E-e-e-e.
10:32:14 <ASau> "I know your name." :)
10:32:32 <ASau> IIRC, Roman?
10:32:32 <true-grue> ASau, really? what is my name then? :)
10:32:47 <ASau> As far as I can recall...
10:32:51 <true-grue> No. Peter Sovietov
10:33:00 <ASau> Hmm.
10:33:08 <ASau> I'm mistaken.
10:33:42 <true-grue> ASau, but, is there anyone who do musical works in Forth?
10:34:03 <true-grue> btw, i was in SU.FORTH in 98-99
10:34:29 <ASau> I've seen something in DragonForth.
10:34:57 <ASau> I learned Forth a bit later than 99.
10:35:24 <ASau> And I've seen references in DMoz.
10:35:31 <ASau> AFAIR
10:35:55 <true-grue> Roman =KRoN= Karshiev -- is he, who you forgot to? (ohh.. my badly english :))
10:36:15 <true-grue> DMoz -- what is it?
10:36:35 <ASau> http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Forth/
10:36:51 <ASau> Yes.
10:37:25 <ASau> I've seen messages where Casio PV mentioned.
10:38:20 <ASau> I think those were Roman's.
10:38:30 <ASau> Probably, I'm mistaken.
10:39:00 <true-grue> ASau, well i don't code in PV.. just reading books :) . And I learned Forth after Leo Broudie books
10:40:05 <ASau> I've learned after Semjonov's one.
10:40:56 <true-grue> I wrote two Forth systems. One for dos, and one for win32(based closely on cmForth). Both in assembler.
10:41:58 <true-grue> ASau, Yes, Semjonov, Baranov & Nozdrunov etc..
10:42:26 <ASau> No.  Yu. Semjonov from ITEP.
10:42:58 <true-grue> ASau, Ops.. Dont know ITEP...
10:43:51 <ASau> Institure of Theoretical and Experimental Physics.
10:44:00 <ASau> Institute...
10:44:31 <true-grue> ASau, i see. Ok, i must leave now. Thanks for talk!
10:45:43 <ASau> I was to leave an our ago.
10:45:47 <ASau> Bye!
10:45:55 <true-grue> Bye! 
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11:49:59 <PayphoneEd> madwork: If you're here, I already have the HHC manual. It says nothing about SNAP.
11:50:05 <PayphoneEd> It mentions it maybe once.
11:50:09 <PayphoneEd> That's it. :P
11:51:02 <madwork> Hmm, nuts.
11:52:56 <PayphoneEd> Yeah, the manual came with the eBay win, pissed me off, usually older computers have big manuals.
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13:00:06 <nothingmuch> i read somewhere that a compiled forth word has 3 bits associated with it
13:00:12 <nothingmuch> immediate
13:00:16 <nothingmuch> compile-only
13:00:20 <nothingmuch> what's the third?
13:02:46 <true-grue> there is no standard for it... in cmForth for example used no bit-flags at all
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13:03:48 <nothingmuch> symbolically, there are 3 flags to keep though
13:03:52 <nothingmuch> or aren't there?
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13:04:30 <alexander_> my forth has no flags, because everything is compiled.
13:04:49 <true-grue> in cmForth compile-only words placed in dedicated dictionary...
13:05:31 <nothingmuch> alexander_: during compile time when a word is looked up in the dictionary, how is an immediate one distinguished from a non immediate one?
13:05:45 <alexander_> nothingmuch: I'm cross compiling, I literally have no bits, everything is compiled.
13:05:48 <nothingmuch> true-grue: fair enough, but what are the 3 distinctions =)
13:06:14 <nothingmuch> alexander_: so there is no STATE variable for example?
13:06:43 <alexander_> nothingmuch: no, but if I go interpreted, I'm going to need to change all that
13:07:07 <nothingmuch> you can only define words, and then after you get a compiled version you can run a word to run the whole app?
13:07:19 <true-grue> nothingmuch,  yes, no state. cmForth is very beautifully designed
13:07:38 <alexander_> nothingmuch: yah, it runs on the embedded board, no interpreter.
13:07:47 <nothingmuch> okay
13:08:04 <nothingmuch> in that case, in a classic forth, what are the 3 things a compiled word can be?
13:08:11 <nothingmuch> i know of two =)
13:08:38 <nothingmuch> either you guys are nitpicking, pulling my leg, or you're too polite to tell me there isn't one
13:08:42 <nothingmuch> =)
13:09:06 <alexander_> haha, well I'd never say there isn't one. :)  there are so many forths, that's hard to answer.
13:09:41 <nothingmuch> well, you all agree that immediate and compile only are two "flags" a word can have set, right?
13:09:57 <true-grue> in classical Forth you need only one bit per word. I see no difference between immediate & compile-only words
13:10:22 <alexander_> true-grue: it depends, isn't 'for' a compile-only word?
13:10:33 <nothingmuch> true-grue: in minforth compile-only is a restriction, and immediate is a behavioral trait
13:12:02 <true-grue> alexander, not necessarily.. In older Forth we always have freedom to crash the system in so many ways.. :)
13:13:07 <alexander_> haha
13:15:37 <true-grue> maybe third bit is for BUILD .. To compile selected words into EXE-module... or something :)
13:15:48 <nothingmuch> heh
13:16:01 <nothingmuch> well, i guess I don't need to care about it if no one can remember ;-)
13:16:15 <true-grue> nothingmuch, :))
13:34:16 <PayphoneEd> Yay, more people.
13:34:34 <PayphoneEd> Anyone know anything about "SNAP Forth" which was used on the Panasonic HHC?
13:36:01 <true-grue> PayphoneEd, not me
13:36:35 <PayphoneEd> Then you must die.
13:36:36 <PayphoneEd> j/k
13:36:39 <PayphoneEd> lol
13:36:52 <alexander_> PayphoneEd: I just looked up the hardware.. that thing looks awesome.
13:38:25 <PayphoneEd> It is pretty awesome.
13:38:35 * true-grue is dead
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13:38:47 <PayphoneEd> It's got this cool keyclick sound every time you press a key.
13:39:08 <PayphoneEd> Like a little .2s blip from the speaker.
13:39:47 <alexander_> you were saying it runs Forth?
13:40:14 <PayphoneEd> It has a built-in SNAP interpreter.
13:40:32 <PayphoneEd> From what I gathered SNAP is a Forth-derived language.
13:40:50 <Herkamire> you _like_ keyclick noises?
13:41:11 <PayphoneEd> Herkamire: They're very soft, if you ignore them you don't hear them.
13:41:28 <Herkamire> only time I like my computer making sound effects is when I play video games, and even then I don't always like it
13:41:45 <PayphoneEd> It's error beep is much more annoying.
13:41:58 <PayphoneEd> While I'm here, what's a good Forth to put on an old 80C88?
13:42:26 <PayphoneEd> Something I can jam onto a 720k floppy to transfer to the HDD.
13:42:33 <PayphoneEd> The gigantic 20MB HDD.
13:42:34 <PayphoneEd> lol
13:44:07 <PayphoneEd> Her name is Komugi, she's a Toshiba T1200, PC/XT Compatible laptop with AT features.
13:44:20 <PayphoneEd> I name my computers because I'm a Linux user.
13:50:50 <OrngeTide> PayphoneEd, cute laptop!
13:51:07 <OrngeTide> PayphoneEd, pygmy forth is the way to go.
13:52:41 <PayphoneEd> Thanks for the tip. :3
13:53:13 <PayphoneEd> Her HDD has NO BAD SECTORS.
13:53:19 <PayphoneEd> Old computers last the longest.
13:53:26 <Herkamire> grrrrr
13:53:32 <Herkamire> html
13:53:54 <OrngeTide> i used to have an nec multispeed laptop. no hdd but *dual* 720k floppies and an NECV20 processor. This guy wrote a 16bit forth using the same exact laptop as mine. http://home.earthlink.net/~jknapka/jkf.html
13:54:07 <OrngeTide> PayphoneEd, is it an ide hdd?
13:54:54 <PayphoneEd> OrngeTide: I'm not quite sure.
13:54:57 <PayphoneEd> Probably.
13:54:59 <OrngeTide> i had a toshiba luggable with 3.5" harddrive. but the bios was only able to recognize two dimensions of harddrives. so replacing the drive was pretty tough.
13:55:11 <OrngeTide> PayphoneEd, well worse case is you could put a compactflash card inplace of the drive.
13:55:19 <PayphoneEd> lol
13:55:31 <PayphoneEd> Nah, like I said, her HDD is 100% functional.
13:55:34 <OrngeTide> i put compactflash cards in my hp200lx. 80186 with 512Mb on C:
13:55:43 <OrngeTide> PayphoneEd, but you want to keep her forever right? :)
13:56:01 <PayphoneEd> OrngeTide: Yeah, when the 20MB dies I'll replace it with something else.
13:56:18 <OrngeTide> 300GB ? :)
13:56:22 <PayphoneEd> lol
13:56:25 <OrngeTide> that would take a while to chkdsk/fsck
13:56:36 <PayphoneEd> I don't think an 80C88 can take 300GB.
13:56:46 <PayphoneEd> Pyoko doesn't even have 300GB.
13:57:03 <PayphoneEd> Piyoko is my main "box", which is a desktop replacement laptop.
13:57:06 <PayphoneEd> 10os[Linux 2.6.12-rc6-Pyocola-i686 i686] 10distro[Gentoo Base System version 1.6.12] 10cpu[1 x Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.66GHz @ 2.66GHz] 10mem[Physical : 21MB/471MB Free] 10disk[Total : 88.12GB/110.61GB Free] 10video[Trident Microsystems CyberBlade XPAi1] 10sound[ALI5451 - ALI 5451]
13:57:21 <OrngeTide> the bios and controller is probably limited to 504MB
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13:58:38 <PayphoneEd> Here, have a picture. SHE'S SO CUTE! :3
13:58:44 <PayphoneEd> http://img.gurochan.net/f/src/1118779848480.jpg
13:59:02 <PayphoneEd> I would have pasted it faster but I got confused by something.
13:59:53 <OrngeTide> ahha. what the heck is that?
14:00:09 <PayphoneEd> Was that a laugh or a scream?
14:01:06 <OrngeTide> a little of both
14:01:45 <OrngeTide> here's why your laptop can probably only use up to 504MB: http://web.inter.nl.net/hcc/J.Steunebrink/bioslim.htm#Begin 
14:02:09 <PayphoneEd> I'm sure I know the issues.
14:02:32 <PayphoneEd> I need to stick NSSI on Komugi, see if it'll run...
14:03:23 <OrngeTide> run minix on it. :)
14:03:30 <OrngeTide> minix was slooow on my hp200lx
14:03:53 <PayphoneEd> Minix installation failed.
14:03:59 <OrngeTide> bummer
14:04:12 <PayphoneEd> I run Toshiba MS-DOS 3.30 and Windows 2.03
14:04:20 <PayphoneEd> A stolen version, of course.
14:04:29 <PayphoneEd> Actually, the DOS came with it.
14:04:29 <PayphoneEd> lol
14:05:58 <OrngeTide> hehe fun
14:06:12 <OrngeTide> my hp200lx actually has rom-dos 5.0
14:06:48 <OrngeTide> 3.3 was when dos finally worked well. I used to have 3.2 and it sucked
14:07:47 <OrngeTide> i could probably put qemu on my palmos and emulate an 8088 faster than your laptop. :)
14:11:35 <PayphoneEd> So?
14:11:39 <PayphoneEd> Shower time.
14:21:19 <Herkamire> hehe
14:34:17 <crc> hi everyone
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18:53:43 <LOOP-HOG> login
19:06:57 <arke> :D
19:07:04 <arke> rm -rf /home/*
19:07:05 <arke> :D
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19:30:57 <LOOP-HOG2> hi again
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19:36:41 <alexander_> hey
19:37:27 <LOOP-HOG2> how are you doing?
19:37:55 <alexander_> good
19:37:57 <alexander_> just got back home
19:38:16 <alexander_> trying to decide if I want to use forth or C for a client project
19:38:51 <LOOP-HOG2> what would be the advantages of using C?
19:39:07 <LOOP-HOG2> I mean, why not use Forth?
19:40:04 <alexander_> because I'm the only one on the team that understands Forth
19:40:17 <alexander_> granted, the main control software is in Scheme, so I doubt I'd be fighting anyone over it
19:42:20 <LOOP-HOG2> maybe it depends upon where your heart lies?
19:42:36 <alexander_> nah, it's more about their long-term interest
19:43:24 <alexander_> if I write it in C, they're more likely to find someone who could pick it up
19:43:42 <alexander_> Forth is a better idea I think, though.
19:43:57 <sproingie> if the main part is in scheme, why not scheme?
19:44:03 <LOOP-HOG2> its too bad that Forth isn't more popular then
19:45:32 <alexander_> sproingie: because I don't want to bring up scheme on the embedded board
19:45:43 <alexander_> and I don't think there's a scheme compiler/interpreter already for AVR
19:48:35 <sproingie> probably not
19:49:34 <sproingie> wish there was a good small bare-metal lisp
19:50:44 <alexander_> you could probably write one in Forth quickly
19:51:23 <sproingie> dunno.  obviously common lisp would never fit.  you'd still want closures tho
19:51:35 <sproingie> tho i guess elisp and autolisp get along without them
19:53:59 <alexander_> you could do all the base lisp functionality, and then write the libraries on top of that for the specific application
19:54:12 <sproingie> maybe a tiny SECD machine.  could be a fun project
19:55:21 <alexander_> yah
19:55:27 <alexander_> you could even parse on the embedded device
19:55:34 <alexander_> do everything natice
19:55:37 <alexander_> er native
19:56:12 <sproingie> not sure what the appeal would be tho
19:56:24 <sproingie> embedded usually isn't into abstract machines like secd
19:56:51 <sproingie> hardware exists for doing the job more or less directly.  everything else is just syntax sugar
19:57:38 <alexander_> but if it tastes better with the sugar, why not? :)
19:59:24 <sproingie> guess if it works.  embedded abstract machine means less code to change, i guess
20:02:02 <alexander_> if I go forth for this new board, I'm going to need to extend my existing AVR forth to do full dictionaries on the board.
20:02:12 <alexander_> which I've been wanting to do anyway
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20:31:21 <LOOP-HOG2> well good luck with your project either way
20:33:04 <alexander_> thanks
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20:39:29 <LOOP-HOG2> are there any website developers on this board besides Herk?
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21:50:34 <LOOP-HOG2> have a good day/nite/week/month/year/century/whatever dudes
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.06.14