00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.06.12
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05:12:46 <ski> is ": foo ;" valid forth ?
05:14:01 <ski> (ok, other person answered : yes it is)
05:20:22 <nothingmuch> hola ski 
05:46:48 <ski> m
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05:53:42 <PoppaVic> Mornin'
05:58:59 <ski> is ";" usually written on it's own line, or on last line in word definition ?
05:59:19 <PoppaVic> I also just mad evident it ended a line
05:59:29 <PoppaVic> I ALWAYS made
05:59:59 <PoppaVic> : this is just fine  ;
06:00:12 <ski> : someword blah blah
06:00:16 <ski>   blah blah ;
06:00:18 <ski> or
06:00:23 <ski> : someword blah blah
06:00:26 <ski>   blah
06:00:26 <ski> ;
06:00:42 <PoppaVic> It dedepends on several issues - like stack-notation comments
06:00:51 <ski> or maybe such long word defs are not recommended to write ;)
06:01:20 <ski> ok, hm. just wanted to know if there was some standard style ..
06:01:20 <PoppaVic> the best rule you will ever here is "Keep a full def shorter than 1 block
06:01:41 <ski> mhm
06:01:44 <PoppaVic> there should be stuff on this at that big forth-site
06:01:59 <ski> which ?
06:02:13 <PoppaVic> hell, I can't recall offhand.. check google
06:02:41 <ski> hm, did you mean "big forth"-site ?
06:02:46 <PoppaVic> The exception to the linear-style would be confusing, long linear, or loops/branches
06:03:02 <PoppaVic> nonono.. I keep thinking of some site in california, I think
06:03:42 <ski> (sorry, note sure which you mean, so doesn't know on what to search for. just googling forth prolly bring up lotsa stuff)
06:04:12 <PoppaVic> taygenta is one
06:04:17 <PoppaVic> forth.org is another
06:04:26 <ski> (oh, well, you don't need to drag it up if you're busy)
06:04:47 <PoppaVic> http://www.forth.org is the best start
06:05:15 <crc> www.forthfreak.net has some good pointers too
06:06:37 * ski is just thinking on possible pattern-matching syntax in some kind of forth (or maybe more general concatenative)
06:07:22 <ski> (i.e. trying to design possible syntax (and semantics) for it)
06:08:41 <PoppaVic> I dunno.. I findit difficult to think that deep in forth anymore, I'm sure there is code that does that "out there", though
06:09:04 <ski> maybe
06:10:06 <ski> (what do you mean with "deep" there ?)
06:10:33 <PoppaVic> Dude, I can envision it via C, but no longer can think forth that well
06:10:41 <ski> ok
06:11:09 <ski> i'm thinking on something like
06:11:10 <ski> : nil  len = 0
06:11:11 <ski> | cons len = drop len 1 +
06:11:11 <ski> ;
06:11:24 <ski> for computing the length of a list ..
06:11:44 <ski> (this is fully hypothetical syntax RN)
06:12:51 <ski> (assuming nil make an empty list, and cons makes a list from a tail list and head element)
06:13:20 <PoppaVic> you mean a 'list' as in a simple SLL?
06:13:25 <ski> yes
06:13:48 <ski> (sorry, should prolly have disambiguated that)
06:13:57 <PoppaVic> umm.. ok <shrug> Wouldn't a wordlist ala' gforth do the job?
06:14:51 <ski> not sure
06:15:17 <ski> was some years ago i used a forth (and not very much, then)
06:16:55 <ski> anyway, i'm just investigating how one could define words traversing e.g. single linked lists in a nicer way ..
06:17:16 <PoppaVic> well, it was done that way in figforth, iirc
06:17:21 <ski> (and other linked structures, such as trees, graphs, etc)
06:17:42 <ski> what was done which way ?
06:18:05 <PoppaVic> your idea suggest, however, a voc for each type and operator-words for all the access
06:18:39 * ski doesn't know what voc or operator-word is ..
06:18:50 <PoppaVic> figforth used a SLL for the dictionaries
06:18:55 <ski> (i'm sorry, i'm more or less a newbie)
06:19:17 <PoppaVic> well, as a newbie, leaping into such a task sounds horribly painful.
06:19:22 <ski> :)
06:22:16 <ski> but, you think figforth has some kind of pattern-matching, then ?  (as opposed to just a word that test if we're at end of list yet)
06:22:21 <PoppaVic> no
06:22:47 <PoppaVic> but I'm sure someone has written such source in SOME forth - check that site, poke at google
06:22:57 <ski> (mm, doing that ..)
06:23:32 <PoppaVic> One of the probs with 'forth' is that are so damned many flavors
06:24:00 <ski> m
06:29:57 <ski> (hm, found one forth with string-pattern-matching, which is not so much related to what i want ..)
06:31:53 <ski> PoppaVic : anyway, ty for your help
06:31:57 <PoppaVic> sure
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09:42:33 <crc> hi
09:42:41 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc
09:42:55 <PoppaVic> lo
09:44:03 <saon> heya crc
09:44:37 <saon> oh, btw, where's that new documentation you were writing for retroforth?
09:44:47 <saon> it was like an rf tutorial
09:45:21 <crc> http://www.retroforth.org/handbook
09:45:38 <saon> thanks :)
09:46:17 <crc> np
09:47:27 * crc has been playing with rf8's ffi quite a bit lately
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10:00:38 <sproingie> was looking at callcc ... is simple in factor
10:01:58 <saon> red looks pretty nice
10:02:05 <sproingie> sort of anyway.  seems to be entirely written in factor
10:02:18 <sproingie> in terms of stack-munging words
10:03:53 <saon> ooh, red is _very_ nice now that i've gotten using it
10:04:44 <crc> thanks
10:05:07 * crc has been using it for several years.... I've grown rather accustomed to having it around :)
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10:11:20 * crc has finished the initial Allegro bindings for RetroForth
10:11:35 <crc> (now in lib/allegro for Generic+FFI and Windows users)
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11:31:40 <lynx`> (sorry about the rapid reconnects; my term settings are a little wild.)
11:32:07 <crc> hi lynx`
11:32:19 <lynx`> hello!
11:32:25 <lynx`> how are you, today?
11:32:33 <crc> pretty good
11:32:41 <lynx`> I'm glad to hear it!
11:32:47 <crc> a bit tired, but good otherwise
11:33:18 <lynx`> I'm not tired, but I'm still stalling on a few errands I need to do. :P
11:33:45 <lynx`> frankly, I just might can the day and grab a beer.
11:33:55 <lynx`> (I'll probably regret it if I do, though.)
11:34:28 <crc> heh
11:34:47 * crc is just doing some playing around with using the Allegro graphics library from within RetroForth
11:35:23 <lynx`> sounds slick!
11:35:54 <lynx`> I haven't tried RetroForth. I'm in the process of (largely) migrating from the Mac, so I missed out on a lot while I was "there".
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11:36:50 <lynx`> is the graphics library object-oriented?
11:36:56 <crc> No
11:37:38 <lynx`> cool.
11:37:46 <crc> I just use the drawing primitives (putpixel, getpixel, hline, vline, line, circle, rect, triangle, polygon, and so on)
11:38:18 <lynx`> that
11:38:22 <lynx`> 's great
11:39:51 <lynx`> now that I'm back on the PC, I should try RetroForth.
11:40:17 <crc> What operating system are you using?
11:40:21 <lynx`> NetBSD.
11:40:36 <crc> hmm
11:40:56 <crc> You should be able to use either the Generic or Generic+FFI ports then
11:41:13 <crc> (Generic need libc, Generic+FFI needs libc and libdl)
11:41:20 <lynx`> I'm figuring that if it won't run natively, I would be able to run it using Linux emulation.
11:41:45 <crc> that's also an option
11:41:48 <lynx`> thanks for the pointer!
11:41:57 * crc plans to do a native NetBSD port sometime this summer
11:42:18 <lynx`> neat!
11:42:44 <lynx`> I'd definitely use that.
11:42:53 <crc> cool
11:46:36 * lynx` has decided to "can" the day.
11:46:41 <lynx`> bbiab.
11:47:50 <lynx`> talk to you in a bit.
11:47:53 <crc> :)
11:57:27 <lynx`> that didn't take as long as I thought it would
11:57:27 <lynx`> I must have really been thirsty.
11:58:15 <lynx`> it doesn't help that this computer probably raises the room temperature by about ten degrees. :P
11:59:00 <crc> hehe
11:59:13 <crc> My house stays about 65 during the summer
11:59:26 <crc> (well air-conditioned and half of the house is underground)
11:59:34 <lynx`> wow. I'm envious.
12:00:00 <lynx`> this is my first year in this apartment, so I'm not sure what to expect.
12:00:55 <lynx`> I was freezing this winter, though.
12:01:23 <lynx`> I wish I had this "space heater" back then, since running this thing now is a bit intense.
12:02:01 <lynx`> between the noise (I wear ear plugs) and heat, it sucks in the summer time.
12:02:13 <crc> ick
12:02:21 <crc> My PC is fairly quiet (thankfully)
12:02:29 * crc hates noisy PC's
12:02:55 <lynx`> me, too.
12:03:08 <lynx`> but, for  through a government auction, I'm not complaining.
12:03:15 <lynx`> it's a bit old, but I'm really liking it otherwise.
12:03:18 <lynx`> for 
12:03:23 <lynx`> $10, rather.
12:03:29 <crc> ahh, cool
12:03:38 <Herkamire> heh
12:04:13 <lynx`> (I forgot that my irc client parses dollar-signs, rather than throwing them to the screen literally.)
12:04:14 <crc> My current box cost about $1200
12:04:34 <lynx`> pretty neat. what do you have in it?
12:04:36 * crc got it as part of the last custom programming job he did
12:04:51 <crc> Pentium IV 2.8GHz with Hyperthreading
12:04:55 <lynx`> wow.
12:04:57 <crc> DVD and CD-RW drives
12:05:04 <crc> 512 MB of RAM
12:05:09 <crc> 60GB hard drive
12:05:28 <crc> 19" LCD (which pivots vertically)
12:05:54 <lynx`> wow.
12:06:07 <crc> There are 9 USB ports on the box, and four on the monitor
12:06:13 <crc> it's a nice system for coding :)
12:06:17 <lynx`> yeah!
12:06:23 <lynx`> mine just missed the mark for USB.
12:06:23 <Herkamire> 9??
12:06:25 <Herkamire> why?
12:07:37 <lynx`> why not? =)
12:07:39 <crc> keyboard, mouse, bluetooth adapter, two iPods, one goes to the monitor...
12:07:41 <Herkamire> mine's got two usb ports on the back, and I don't use either because the ADC thing carries USB too.
12:07:55 <lynx`> Herk: oh, you have a Mac?
12:08:03 <Herkamire> yeah
12:08:12 <Herkamire> running linux
12:08:15 * crc also has three USB memory devices, and an 8-in-1 card reader
12:08:18 <crc> and a printer
12:08:24 <Herkamire> ahh :)
12:08:27 <lynx`> neat. I am transitioning from the Mac myself.
12:08:28 <crc> I could use a couple more ports....
12:08:29 <Herkamire> I just have keyboard and mouse
12:08:40 <lynx`> crc: sheesh. that's quite a few odds and ends.
12:08:44 * crc wants to get a nice 20 port powered hub
12:08:50 <crc> lynx`: yeah
12:08:56 * crc has several PDA's too
12:08:56 <Herkamire> and a hub built into the monitor. so I have both ports on the keyboard and both on the back of the box empty
12:09:07 <lynx`> crc: do you develop for PDAs too?
12:09:29 <crc> I did a bit of coding for PalmOS a few years ago
12:09:33 <lynx`> Herk: neither my Power Mac or PowerBook have anywhere near that many ports.
12:09:33 <Herkamire> lynx`: changing hardware too? or just OS?
12:09:40 <crc> Nothing since everyone moved to ARM chips though
12:09:46 <Herkamire> lynx`: 2?
12:10:21 <lynx`> Herk: well, as far as the hardware, that's still up in the air. But, I do plan on moving away from OS.
12:10:27 <lynx`> s/from/from the/
12:10:34 <lynx`> yes. only two.
12:10:49 <lynx`> I'd like to move the Macs to NetBSD, too.
12:11:10 <lynx`> I do like the PowerPC, though, and this machine was just pretty neat so I couldn't help but get it.
12:11:18 <Herkamire> do you know what fileformat netbsd uses for executables?
12:11:31 <Herkamire> I really like ppc too
12:11:33 <lynx`> (but I'm still not sure if I will move to the PC.)
12:11:37 <Herkamire> kinda pissed apple is dropping it
12:12:23 <lynx`> I'll admit I'm still so new to NetBSD that I don't know what the file format the executables or object files use.
12:12:57 <lynx`> well, Apple's decision played a large part in my interest in leaving Mac OS.
12:12:58 <crc> I think that NetBSD uses ELF now
12:13:14 <lynx`> crc: it does, but I don't know the specifics.
12:13:16 <Herkamire> I want to play with NetBSD, but I'm currently mad at it for requireing a whole hard drive
12:13:41 <Herkamire> oh cool
12:13:44 <lynx`> Herk: as far as I know, it doesn't require the whole drive.
12:13:54 <Herkamire> herkforth might run on it as is :)
12:14:10 <lynx`> I've installed partitions side by side with DOS when I was first getting things going.
12:14:36 <Herkamire> I don't know anything about getting it to work with dos
12:14:55 <Herkamire> what I do know, is that there didn't seem to be any way of setting up the partition for netbsd without wiping the whole drive
12:15:15 <Herkamire> it didn't need to use the whole drive afterwards, but I can't keep my stuff on here and install netbsd on a spare partition
12:15:20 <lynx`> I had no difficulty creating three or four partitions without touching the DOS partitions.
12:15:23 <Herkamire> maybe this has been fixed since I looked into it
12:15:32 <lynx`> (excuse me, disk labels in NetBSD terminology.)
12:15:42 <Herkamire> yeah, good for you, you can't do that on mac
12:16:00 <Herkamire> maybe you can, sorry
12:16:04 <Herkamire> I just don't see the connection
12:16:16 <lynx`> no problem. I'
12:16:31 <lynx`> ll admit that the system has a few screwball problems with its installation utility.
12:16:43 <Herkamire> docs said teh only way to setup the partition was with a netbsd-only program, or a mac utility that wiped the whole drive
12:16:58 <Herkamire> and there was no  way to run the netbsd program without having netbsd first (ie no boot disk)
12:17:34 <Herkamire> or maybe it had a boot disk that didn't work for me...
12:17:36 <lynx`> strange.
12:17:40 <Herkamire> I should probabyl stop bitching about this
12:18:00 <lynx`> I'll be converting my PowerBook sometime soon, so I'll let you know what I come up against.
12:18:07 <lynx`> maybe it has changed.
12:18:09 <lynx`> maybe it hasn't.
12:18:13 <lynx`> I have no idea!
12:18:22 <Herkamire> you going to try to save some partitions?
12:18:26 <Herkamire> I would be curious how it goes
12:18:52 <lynx`> no, but I can experiment with that before I clean out the drive.
12:19:28 <Herkamire> cool
12:19:39 <lynx`> I'm interested, too.
12:21:02 <lynx`> I've just had it with the childish CEO.
12:21:35 <lynx`> Mr. Jobs decides to play el politico with Intel, and in the process, throws years worth of work into the dumpster for countless developers.
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12:22:06 * crc is still mad at Jobs for killing the Newton
12:22:20 <lynx`> (two notable Forths which have stuck around for almost as long as there has been a Mac may fall victim to his "decision"\; this remains to be seen.)
12:23:14 <lynx`> crc: the Newton introduced the View concept, which was only recently reintroduced on OS X I believe (albeit in a diluted form).
12:23:33 <crc> ahh
12:23:37 * crc loves his Newtons
12:23:55 <Herkamire> view?
12:24:03 <lynx`> I guess Mr. Jobs will turn us all into C programmers, yet. :P
12:24:06 * crc has the an OMP, MP120, MP2100, and an eMate
12:24:21 <Raystm2_> Hi crc hi Herkamire hi lynx hi anybody I have missed
12:24:28 <crc> Hi Ray
12:24:31 <Herkamire> crc: you working on getting retroforth to run on those?
12:24:38 <Herkamire> howdy :)
12:24:40 <lynx`> crc: I never really used a Newton. They seem great, though.
12:24:45 <crc> Herkamire: I hope to be able to run it on them someday
12:24:49 <lynx`> hi ray!
12:24:56 <Herkamire> what's the View concept?
12:25:02 <crc> There isn't a lot of documentation on the API's though :(
12:25:20 <lynx`> Herk: have you ever played with MacApp?
12:25:27 <Herkamire> no
12:25:29 <lynx`> hmm.
12:26:10 <lynx`> it is basically an object-oriented hierarchial set of "widgets"
12:26:42 <lynx`> for constructing standard parts of a gui.
12:26:50 <lynx`> (e.g., sliders, text windows, buttons, etc.)
12:27:14 <Herkamire> like interface builder?
12:27:17 <lynx`> it makes creating consistent user interfaces really easy.
12:27:17 <Raystm2_> lynx that puts me in mind of PythonCardPrototype and ( oh what's the name ) ......
12:27:28 <lynx`> sort of, except that it is done programmatically.
12:27:42 <Herkamire> like gtk?
12:28:01 <lynx`> herk: on that order (I believe), but it is quite a bit nicer.
12:28:19 <Herkamire> cool
12:28:28 <lynx`> especially when you can string together a series of these "widgets" and just invoke the clump of them by a single name.
12:28:29 <Herkamire> I don't like C++ though
12:28:49 <Herkamire> "invoke" them?
12:28:51 <lynx`> Herk: neither do I. Mops was an OO Forth, which is where I got to like the idea.
12:29:10 <Herkamire> mops uses macapp?
12:29:25 <Herkamire> or mops as an oo widget thingie of it's own?
12:29:29 <lynx`> no. it uses its own class hierarchy that uses views extensively.
12:29:32 <lynx`> yes.
12:29:45 <Herkamire> cool
12:30:02 <lynx`> it is really one hell of a system, I think, and the developers were very active in cleaning up the mess.
12:30:19 <Herkamire> I don't like widgets :)
12:30:19 <lynx`> (a lot of the class toolbox is ten or even fifteen years old!)
12:30:39 <lynx`> and then Mr. Jobs decides to throw a side-winder their way.
12:30:47 <lynx`> well, I don't either.
12:31:04 <lynx`> Mops' class/toolbox library is really quite clean compared to the likes of MacApp.
12:31:05 <Raystm2_> ( /me remembers ) ...... win32 extentions for python.
12:31:28 * crc hates win32
12:31:39 <lynx`> and on the Mac, "widgets" are sort of the order of the day, especially if you want to abide by the HUI guidelines.
12:31:46 <Herkamire> I'm not sure it's really Jobs's fault. heard they had trouble getting enough G4s and maybe IBM isn't so into the same kinds of chips that apple wants
12:32:09 <Raystm2_> I get that.
12:32:10 <lynx`> Herk: he's wanted to move the Mac out of Power/PowerPC territory ever since he took the helm, in my opinion.
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12:33:00 <lynx`> I only think he is interested in getting the Mac on more people's desks, and I don't think he cares how that happens.
12:33:03 <Raystm2_> It would not supprise me, a company of that size and quality, that they have been testing many many archtitectures.
12:33:47 <Raystm2_> lynx: i understand that too. :)
12:34:07 <lynx`> and the Mac-friendly press just expounds on how the Mac is still as "exclusive" as it ever was. In other words, the Mercedes is still a Mercedes for those that can afford one, just never mind that parts inside it are now crap.
12:34:37 <lynx`> ray: I do, too. But, many loyal developers have been working hard to make their applications fully-compliant with OS X.
12:35:07 <lynx`> and this may be a bombshell for anyone who doesn't program C/C++/Objective-C.
12:35:11 <lynx`> (or Java. heh.)
12:35:15 <Herkamire> yeah. I don't want to abibe by HIGs that follow the WIMP model
12:35:22 <Herkamire> I've had it with windows
12:35:29 <Herkamire> and icons
12:35:41 <Herkamire> undecided about menus
12:35:44 <Herkamire> and pointers
12:36:57 <lynx`> I'll admit I'm sort of enjoying X11, but my only intentions are to run a few xterms.
12:37:07 <lynx`> not exactly tough stuff. =)
12:37:23 <Herkamire> heh
12:37:28 <lynx`> I enjoyed the Mac, but I've had it with commercial operating systems.
12:37:35 <Herkamire> I like X11 because I can use screwy window managers
12:37:52 <Herkamire> but I hate it because it's slow, huge, complex, and a total bitch to configure
12:38:02 <lynx`> you are the mercy of the manufacturers every whim, and deviate only slightly from the norm, and you risk extinction when something like this recent Apple decision comes about.
12:38:21 <Herkamire> and it lets user programs take over all your monitor, keyboard and mouse
12:38:24 <Raystm2_> colorforth
12:38:27 <lynx`> yeah. I gave up finding elegance in normal computing operating systems.
12:38:38 --- nick: Raystm2_ -> Raystm2
12:38:48 <lynx`> I'm at the point where I can just settle into something that will run on any piece of hardware I can find.
12:38:57 <lynx`> I'll put up with it as long as it works reliably.
12:39:09 <lynx`> NetBSD seemed to fit the bill here.
12:39:34 <Herkamire> I'm making  my own os
12:39:37 <lynx`> Herk: yeah. I don't admire X's paradigm, either.
12:39:49 <Herkamire> and I know there's a good chance I'll have to port to another architecture at some point
12:40:00 * crc wonders how many Forth people are working on their own OSes
12:40:11 <Raystm2> all of them :)
12:40:15 <crc> heh
12:40:17 <Herkamire> but, as much as I complain about X, I don't think I could get windoze or mac to have an interface like this
12:40:21 <Raystm2> I dont let you work on mine :)
12:40:28 <lynx`> I'd run colorForth.
12:40:29 <lynx`> if I could.
12:40:35 <Herkamire> eg fullscreen windows (all of them always) with the top for pixels a row of tabs for the windows
12:40:51 <Herkamire> and some more features (like seperate screens of windows, and being able to split up the screen on occation
12:40:51 <lynx`> but it does not seem that any of the machines I come across will even offer a glimmer of hope.
12:41:01 <Raystm2> lynx : you will, and it wont be long. the community is getting closer everyday :)
12:41:33 <lynx`> I'm not holding my breath.
12:41:33 <Raystm2> Mark_s' metacompiler nearly finished
12:41:44 <lynx`> they need their own hardware. otherwise nothing is ever going to happen.
12:41:46 <Herkamire> I bet most serious forthers would turn their forth into an OS if they had the time
12:41:57 <Raystm2> ya Herkamire
12:41:58 <Herkamire> if they got that far before getting distracted
12:42:15 <Herkamire> takes a long time to make a good OS
12:42:17 <crc> I'm getting there, slowly but surely
12:42:22 <Herkamire> me too :)
12:42:33 <crc> Mine isn't good for the average person though
12:42:39 <Herkamire> takes a lot to make it worth running natively
12:42:52 <Herkamire> there's got to be some advantage to running it that way instead of hosted
12:43:07 <Herkamire> something strong enough to outweigh the ability to run your linux/whatever programs at the same time
12:43:12 * crc likes having complete control over the hardware and software
12:43:25 <Raystm2> yes you both are and all of your great ideas will meld one day with the "other' great ideas in the micro-os world and wammi, new paradigm, that the parts manufactures will have to develop interfaces for.
12:43:45 <crc> I don't have networking yet, but once I do I can drop the Linux kernel pretty easily
12:43:52 <Raystm2> :)
12:43:53 <Herkamire> I'm planning to do it by having a far better user interface
12:44:04 <Raystm2> have you see the colorforth networking stuff?
12:44:06 * crc notes that once I finish the metacompiler, all I'll need is a kernel
12:44:13 <crc> Raystm2: no
12:44:27 * Raystm2 will have to get you a link to the code.
12:44:30 <Herkamire> but I have this nagging little voice in my head that says I could do just about all of that pretty well with SDL
12:44:43 <Raystm2> crc do you have tims archive in a link?
12:44:51 <crc> Raystm2: nope :(
12:44:55 <Raystm2> getting
12:45:59 <crc> I'm doing most of my prototyping and such on the hosted versions of RetroForth
12:46:00 * Raystm2 remembers that I dont have Tim's link either, I allways put 'tim neitz' in a google box and feel lucky, hehehe
12:46:02 <Raystm2> http://www.dnd.utwente.nl/~tim/colorforth/
12:46:10 <Herkamire> I would like some graphics card routines that SDL does not provide, but it's going to be a long time before I get there
12:46:17 <crc> Moving over to the native version is mainly about getting the drivers written
12:46:49 <Herkamire> I really want to move over to native
12:47:01 <Herkamire> but when I think about it more objectively, there's not much point
12:47:11 <Raystm2> Herkamire: how does CM do all that neat chip display stuff.....
12:47:18 <Raystm2> he don't use SDL
12:47:49 <crc> c4th has access to the video framebuffer directly
12:47:51 <Herkamire> yeah, but you can't use the net in colorforth
12:47:51 <Raystm2> seems like he's got a 3d generator and can show that chip at any zoom or position nearly instanly
12:48:20 <Herkamire> oh, I thought he just had two zooms
12:48:22 <Raystm2> Herkamire. I've used the net in colorforth -- simple block transfer - - but enough to say i did :)
12:48:29 * crc would be content to run a Linux or BSD kernel with RetroForth on top - and none of the *nix tools
12:49:36 <Herkamire> I really _want_ to go native
12:49:55 <Herkamire> but it would be so cool if people could run herkforth on their current system to try it out
12:49:58 <Herkamire> or just to use
12:50:17 <Raystm2> what needs to happen is a wiki of os-less proceedures 
12:50:34 <Herkamire> os-less proceedures?
12:51:01 <Raystm2> ya, you know, "how to do anything with a computer with out an os"
12:51:29 <Raystm2> well, with out a traditional os that is
12:51:46 <Raystm2> you know, roll-yer-own
12:52:21 <Herkamire> however you want
12:52:36 <Herkamire> that's a lot of the fun
12:52:45 <Herkamire> I want to go native to get away from the paradigms
12:52:59 <Raystm2> and that's the new paradigm
12:53:06 <Herkamire> I don't want to deal with mass storage via open/seek/read/write/close
12:53:14 <Raystm2> i see.
12:53:20 <Raystm2> how to then?
12:53:26 * arke wants to write a multics-inspired forth os
12:54:03 <Herkamire> I think I want to deal with large amounts of data as a series of chunks
12:54:12 <Herkamire> or maybe just chunks that link to eachother
12:54:20 <Herkamire> haven't decided how big the chunks should be
12:54:20 <Raystm2> cool. 
12:54:26 <Herkamire> possibly as small as 512 bytes
12:54:37 <Raystm2> i see.
12:55:25 <Herkamire> maybe if I do something fancy with memory management, it'll be the the smallest allocatable memory for memory mapping
12:55:48 * crc manages data in multiple chunks of 512 bytes
12:56:17 <arke> so will "Forthics" :P
12:56:21 <arke> ahaha
12:56:28 * arke hides in the corner
12:56:30 <arke> :D
12:56:39 <Raystm2> Forthics?
12:56:48 <Raystm2> arke please expound
12:57:01 <crc> arke: why not do FITS, a Forth Incompatible Timesharing System?  :P
12:57:10 <Raystm2> :)
12:57:21 <Raystm2> haha fits i love it
12:57:47 <Raystm2> That's for me, I wanna have FITS.
12:58:17 <Raystm2> "are you self-centered and indulgant -- Time to have FITS" heheh
12:59:39 <Raystm2> Of course we can force the device manufatures to have Simple Hardware Incompatable Timesharing Systems.
13:00:18 <Raystm2> then everybody can get the SHITS
13:03:08 * Raystm2 still hiding in corner
13:03:57 <Raystm2> That CPS book that Mark Slicker is touting should help in this development
13:05:33 <Raystm2> Communicating Sequential Processes, breaks down events into a mathematics that can be programmed into a machine.
13:05:56 <arke> Raystm2: hahahahahahahhaahahaha
13:06:01 <arke> Raystm2: Read up on Multics
13:06:08 <Raystm2> k :)
13:06:09 <arke> Raystm2: think of that + forth
13:06:10 <arke> :)
13:06:14 <Raystm2> right I get it :)
13:06:19 <Raystm2> FITS is good
13:06:49 <Raystm2> unix came from Multics yes and so did ITS ?
13:07:05 <Raystm2> or did Multics come from ITS?
13:07:08 <arke> well, inspired by
13:07:13 <Raystm2> i see :)
13:07:20 <arke> i dont know about ITS, i think it came before multics but I might be wrong
13:10:01 <arke> aah SHI%
13:10:10 <Raystm2> what now?
13:10:53 <arke> I lost part of the english project I wrote
13:10:53 <Raystm2> Simple Hardware Operating Timeshareing System. It'll drive you to drink
13:11:00 <arke> FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK
13:11:03 <crc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incompatible_Timesharing_System
13:11:05 <lynx`> I want all of these cranky, geezer operating systems to go away.
13:11:19 <Raystm2> crc thank you sir !! :)
13:11:49 <arke> aah, ITS came after multics
13:11:49 <arke> .)
13:11:58 <Raystm2> lynx -- I think it's too late for that-- time to strip out the good ideas and leave the rest.
13:12:14 <lynx`> ray: I thought that already happened? :-)
13:12:26 <Raystm2> ya and i'm sure it will continue....
13:12:34 * crc actually used ITS on an emulator a few years back
13:12:39 <lynx`> I have no particular envy of the "good old" days of Bell Labs and MIT and early UNIX and other oddities (like hardcopy terminals)
13:12:47 <lynx`> I'm not sure what people enjoy in those stories.
13:12:53 <lynx`> (forgive me if I am offending anyone.)
13:13:01 * crc remembers how hard it was to bootstrap the OS
13:13:11 <Raystm2> Best thing that came out of unix is that login hack .
13:13:24 <lynx`> crc: the worst I ever got was CP/M on an Kaypro, which I had to contend with in 1999 for several months until I got another computer.
13:13:32 <lynx`> crc: with leather, eh?
13:13:41 <crc> heh
13:13:42 <lynx`> :-)
13:13:49 --- join: alexander_ (~alexander@69.17.112.153) joined #forth
13:13:50 <alexander_> hey
13:13:54 <lynx`> hello alex!
13:13:58 <crc> I used CP/M only once and it was a pain :)
13:13:59 <Raystm2> You know the one, where what's his name disclosed his back door into every computer on earth proving that none were secure.
13:14:20 <lynx`> crc: I didn't mind. It was like DOS, only simpler. :-)
13:14:21 <alexander_> sup guys?
13:14:30 <crc> Ken Thompson?
13:14:31 <Raystm2> howdy alexander_ ;)
13:14:35 <crc> Hi alexander_
13:14:38 <Raystm2> ya ya kT
13:14:53 <lynx`> I'm glad good folks pull stunts like that.
13:15:16 <Raystm2> That ended computer security whether or not anybody wanted to believe ken or not
13:15:22 <lynx`> it is a wake up call for everyone, reminding everyone that computers are far from infallible.
13:15:27 <Raystm2> si
13:15:32 <Raystm2> is
13:15:44 * crc actually liked the old descriptions of the original UNICS system before it became the beast we know as Unix
13:16:02 <lynx`> (I recall at some point in the mid-1990s, when industry and consumers alike seemed to be totally caught up with the idea that the computer was a "perfect" machine that never made mistakes. The prospect scared the hell out of me, honestly.)
13:16:14 <Raystm2> hehe
13:16:27 <lynx`> and then the "cyborg" fetish caught on soon after.
13:16:30 <lynx`> that also bothered the hell out of me.
13:16:33 <Raystm2> hehe
13:16:40 <lynx`> "wow! we can be MORE than ourselves!"
13:16:42 <Raystm2> but is that were we're heading?
13:17:06 <Raystm2> some sort of juvenile morality will halt that i'm certain
13:17:07 <lynx`> no. honestly, I don't think so.
13:17:15 <lynx`> people are starting to get scared of that prospect now.
13:17:23 <lynx`> it is now a bedtime tale we can tell little children.
13:17:33 <Raystm2> just like other forms of evolution being halted by man.
13:17:33 <lynx`> (and make them into maladjusted adults.)
13:17:41 <Raystm2> :)
13:17:43 <Raystm2> heheh
13:18:17 <alexander_> anyone have any info on the chips that moore is working on now?  I watched the recent fireside chat on ultratechnology, but haven't been able to find any more information.
13:18:18 <lynx`> if it were ever to succeed, it would last for maybe two generations, and then come crashing down.
13:18:19 <Raystm2> Some how I don't believe man will be like the ants
13:18:42 <lynx`> ray: there is a fear of the individual in today's society.
13:18:56 <Raystm2> this is also true....
13:19:00 <lynx`> there is a fear that is sweeping like wild fire, I feel, that makes people afraid of being selfish and greedy.
13:19:13 <Raystm2> agreed
13:19:14 <lynx`> they believe that all of the world's ills come down to the fundamental flaws of each individual.
13:19:20 <Raystm2> ya
13:19:21 <lynx`> (a leftover from Darwin and Freud, I guess.)
13:19:25 <Raystm2> sure
13:19:30 <lynx`> and really, they should realize that the most greedy people in the world
13:19:37 <lynx`> are really the most UNselfish people in the world.
13:19:46 <lynx`> they are so caught up with other people and what they have, own, do, etc.
13:19:54 <Raystm2> they have to have co-operation to get anywhere.
13:19:56 <lynx`> that they stop living their own lives, and dedicate it to taking from others.
13:19:59 <lynx`> that's not selfishness.
13:20:14 <lynx`> true selfishness is the *best* thing that ever happened to people.
13:20:15 <Raystm2> hehehe
13:20:17 <alexander_> haha
13:20:21 <alexander_> okay ayn rand
13:20:25 <Raystm2> and capitalism?
13:20:28 <lynx`> it is the group complex that is bad, that makes peope pay more attention to others.
13:20:31 <alexander_> chips?  anyone seen anyone about them?
13:20:34 <alexander_> er anything
13:20:40 <lynx`> alex
13:20:40 <lynx`> what's ayn rand about what I'm saying?
13:20:46 <Raystm2> the majority is never right?
13:20:56 <lynx`> ray: capitalism, the "good" idea at least, is neat.
13:21:05 <lynx`> the selfishness of the individual creates a natural balance.
13:21:13 <Raystm2> yes lez a fair
13:21:30 <lynx`> unfortunately, most people think that adhering to social ideas of what it means to be rich is how you drive your pursuit of success.
13:21:44 <lynx`> ray: I don't think the majority is always wrong.
13:21:45 <Raystm2> but the only free market in US now is in drugs and black market
13:21:58 <alexander_> Raystm2: laissez faire :)
13:22:03 <lynx`> actually, a majority is just a group of individuals who gave up their willingness to think for themselves.
13:22:10 <Raystm2> thanks for having my back alexander_ :)
13:22:12 <lynx`> so it is the individual who is at fault, but only because of negligence.
13:22:27 <Raystm2> agreed
13:22:34 <Raystm2> or time
13:22:37 <Raystm2> or interest
13:22:37 <alexander_> lynx`: you're pushing ayn rand's prime concept
13:22:43 <alexander_> even if she didn't event it.
13:22:58 <lynx`> alex: I never read Ayn Rand, so I honestly can't agree or disagree.
13:23:15 <alexander_> lynx`: well trust me, I've read a handful of her stuff, and what you're saying is what she said.
13:23:21 * lynx` shrugs
13:23:23 <alexander_> just an observation
13:23:29 <arke> alexander_: nope, its all NDA material so nobody knows
13:23:52 <alexander_> arke: he gave some good details in the chat, but I can't even find the company he was refering to
13:23:56 <lynx`> I'm a fierce optimist, though, and I do think things are getting better today.
13:24:04 <Raystm2> ya alexander_ NDA , still waiting to hear from his laywers about what he can share of current colorforth
13:24:29 <arke> alexander_: doesnt surprise me. hes being careful, with teh lawsuit and all
13:24:32 <alexander_> yah
13:24:38 <lynx`> I just resent the wave of people who now preach this anti-individual rhetoric for the sake of some world-wide "join hands together in love and harmony" bullshit that makes life empty and meaningless
13:24:41 <arke> alexander_: he revealed exactly as mch as he could :)
13:24:43 <lynx`> (and well, downright unrealistic.)
13:24:55 <arke> lynx`: THANK YOU!!!!!
13:24:57 <arke> somebody that agreees!
13:25:16 <lynx`> arke: :-)
13:25:36 <Raystm2> "we are the world, We are the molesters" 
13:25:56 <Raystm2> "we are the ones to make a brighter day and SHITS all over it "
13:26:22 <lynx`> in this sense, while I believe in a lot of strange things
13:26:28 <lynx`> I am not "new age," nor can I be.
13:26:40 <arke> "Yes, Mrs. Smith, I think your son tommy would be a GREAT altarboy! He gives good hea...err, I mean, he is very hard working..... yeah..."
13:26:47 <lynx`> and while maybe at one time I'd be called an extreme liberal, apparently I'm nowhere on the map.
13:26:49 <Raystm2> hehe
13:27:12 <lynx`> since I'm as much an enemy of so-called liberals as I am with so-called conservatives.
13:27:17 <arke> lynx`: same. I agree with teh conservatives as much as teh liberals, although I am much less for preserving the status quo so I guess I lean liberal
13:27:27 <arke> s/agree/disagree that is
13:27:28 <arke> :)
13:27:46 <lynx`> arke: the liberal crowd just seems to confirm the fears of the conservative crowd, by simply answering them in the opposite.
13:27:52 <lynx`> it's monotonous.
13:27:58 <lynx`> double-speak.
13:28:01 <Raystm2> world gov? no country and no state and no county but yes local ?
13:28:05 <arke> The green party is worse
13:28:08 <arke> ;)
13:28:19 <lynx`> they say they disagree, but really they make all the moves the "other side" needs to bring their own ideas to fruitation.
13:28:35 <lynx`> silly.
13:28:45 <lynx`> ray: world government? now? no way.
13:28:50 <Raystm2> well, that's just "we Have the best Ideas" but there is only one best ides
13:28:53 <Raystm2> idea
13:28:54 <Raystm2> oops
13:28:54 <lynx`> I can't say if humanity will ever be ready for it, but now.
13:29:00 <lynx`> s/now/not now/
13:29:08 <Raystm2> ya
13:29:11 <arke> Hah.
13:29:13 <arke> Never.
13:29:26 <Raystm2> I don't know arke, about never.
13:29:28 <arke> Not until the world is like in "Brave New World". And even then, probably not.
13:29:36 <lynx`> yikes. Brave New World. :P
13:29:52 <arke> :P
13:29:53 <Raystm2> people may see the truth thru generous donations of this communication device world wide
13:30:01 <Raystm2> when we see we are all the same
13:30:29 <lynx`> I think what this medium is supposed to prove is how different each of us are, as individuals.
13:30:35 * Raystm2 has traveled 18 timezones --- we are all the same
13:30:39 <lynx`> on the one hand, physically we aren't different.
13:30:44 <lynx`> we are all made of the same stuff.
13:30:52 <Raystm2> we eat the same stuff
13:30:57 <Raystm2> we fight the same problems
13:31:11 <lynx`> I think it does a great job of eliminating fundamental abursidities like rascism, sexism, and (coming-soon to a theatre near you) classism
13:31:23 <Raystm2> yes
13:31:28 <lynx`> but, I hope it does not create a backwash of flesh all moving in the same direction.
13:31:33 <Raystm2> the "walls" are coming down
13:31:48 <lynx`> I like a very personal kind of chaos.
13:31:59 <Raystm2> corporations are the new boundary lines
13:32:02 <lynx`> I like it when you have 100 people in a room, and none of them honestly agree with other on valid grounds.
13:32:15 <Raystm2> that's insanity :)
13:32:18 <lynx`> it is proof for me, not of the ills of the world, but of how great the world is just that we can have all of these differing viewponts.
13:32:48 <lynx`> I didn't say fighting.
13:33:02 <lynx`> that isn't disagreeing on valid grounds in most cases. :-)
13:33:16 <Raystm2> 100 intellegent people in a room would find concensus eventually, no?
13:33:49 <lynx`> ray: on some things. but, I would think that if they were honest with *themselves* (and not the social standards of their upbringing)
13:34:06 <lynx`> there would never be a true concensus
13:34:11 <lynx`> and I think that's great.
13:34:13 <Raystm2> really?
13:34:27 <Raystm2> there I disagree, 
13:34:27 <lynx`> I think social ills come from meeting standards that are not personal/individual
13:34:44 <lynx`> meeting other "people's" (say, a society's) expectations
13:34:44 <Raystm2> aren't all thoughts just that tho
13:34:57 <lynx`> just what?
13:35:46 <lynx`> I sort of think corporations as the next "tier" down between the government and the people.
13:35:51 <Raystm2> personal/individual and if i might add, totaly dependant on the survival of the individual, at least for an intellengent individual.
13:35:53 <lynx`> s/think/think of/
13:36:18 <lynx`> on the one hand, people are less inclined to hand all power to a single ruling entity (which means they are weening themselves from a parent figure)
13:36:32 <lynx`> but ont he other hand, the corporation is but a small baby step towards true individual freedom
13:36:46 <Raystm2> well that maybe so, but it is corporations and there needs and desires driving all govs and influencing all peoples
13:37:05 <lynx`> I feel that the "mass mind" wants it that way.
13:37:15 <lynx`> I don't think there is any "wresting" of power at almost any step.
13:37:36 <lynx`> I think when you have near-complete power, that is because you have concensus.
13:38:18 <Raystm2> all corporations are dictatorships tho, by definition.
13:38:26 <lynx`> sure. that is because people want to be ruled.
13:39:01 <lynx`> we are moving into the era of a more amorphous kind of city state, intelletually-speaking.
13:39:50 <Raystm2> world wide city state? personnaly i think traditional boundaries are just there to appease the smaller minds of the electorate or ruled, which ever the case may be.
13:39:54 <lynx`> in a sense, this is a natural completion of what has been happening for 500 years.
13:40:05 <Raystm2> ya
13:40:16 <lynx`> (the age of Mercantilism was the beginning of corporation government.)
13:40:26 <lynx`> s/corporation/corporate/
13:40:27 <Raystm2> sure i get that
13:41:00 <lynx`> I feel that boundaries are literal interpretations of our own intellectual progress.
13:41:06 <Raystm2> be a web designer from your own island country and you are equal in this world :)
13:41:16 <lynx`> in a sense, the company spans the globe because humanity is now doign the same.
13:41:59 <Raystm2> brb honey-do :)
13:41:59 <lynx`> isn't there an internet provider on a man-made island just off the shore of the UK that is no unlike that?
13:42:07 <lynx`> s/no/not
13:42:17 <lynx`> (I'm trying to remember the name.)
13:43:01 <lynx`> sure. :-)
13:43:13 <lynx`> forgive the talk. but, I guess I was in the mood to rant a bit.
13:44:02 <lynx`> (I think I got started when I got angry at Mr. Jobs throwing away third-party work on third-party compilers for the Mac.)
13:44:04 * arke is gone for a bit
13:44:22 <lynx`> irk. I'm not even coherent right now.
13:44:24 <lynx`> I better shutup.
13:44:26 <Raystm2> No prob, Dennis, you are Dennis Miller, right :) hehehe
13:44:39 <lynx`> quite the opposite. he and I would never get along.
13:44:43 <Raystm2> hehehe
13:44:52 <lynx`> (I'd probably wring his neck before the end of the night.)
13:45:17 <Raystm2> I like DM cuz he speaks his mind, He's full of it , but he gets to do it in front of a very large crowd :)
13:45:43 <lynx`> he gets to speak his mind because a lot of important people like what he says.
13:45:46 <lynx`> and that pisses me off.
13:45:51 <Raystm2> ya ;)
13:45:55 <lynx`> he is as much of a sell-out as anyone else on the scene.
13:46:01 <lynx`> and I don't mind sell-outs.
13:46:05 <lynx`> just don't confuse the issue.
13:46:09 <lynx`> I like brand-labels.
13:46:12 <Raystm2> Well, spokes people are a dime a dozzen
13:46:14 <lynx`> (they do, don't they?)
13:46:40 <Raystm2> spin ya 
13:47:10 <lynx`> yes. and it is why I get angry. because people are afraid above all else to fail and be wrong.
13:47:28 <lynx`> that is why spokes people exist. to make up their minds for them with the comforting woos of industry.
13:47:45 <arke> back cake!
13:47:46 <lynx`> (and if not industry or government, it would be something else. so don't blame them. they just meet a genuine need on the part of the populace.)
13:47:50 * Raystm2 is afraid to fail and I have 3 wonderful ideas that could coelese and make me independantly profitable.
13:47:53 <arke> teh hies
13:47:54 <arke> Raystm2: tiff
13:47:55 <arke> ?
13:47:59 <lynx`> arke: you got cake?
13:48:27 <Raystm2> tiff is shopping with mama
13:48:35 <lynx`> ray: It is understandable why people are afraid to fail.
13:48:55 <Raystm2> Who wants to lose what they worked the life for
13:48:57 <lynx`> but, when you squander your individual impulses, you'll fail, and then you'll die thinking you were at the mercy of everyone else.
13:49:06 <Raystm2> :)
13:49:06 <Raystm2> ya
13:49:08 <Raystm2> trye
13:49:10 <Raystm2> true even
13:49:14 <lynx`> because you'll lose what you have anyway if you don't be yourself.
13:49:26 <arke> Raystm2: I wish
13:49:29 <arke> er
13:49:31 <arke> lynx`: I wish
13:49:35 * Raystm2 has got my music on cd :)
13:49:39 <arke> Raystm2: when they gonna be back?
13:49:50 <Raystm2> arke : they just now returned :)
13:50:34 * Raystm2 newest project " inside job" -- might lose that title
13:50:46 <lynx`> ray: you are a musician?
13:50:46 <Raystm2> its a working title
13:50:52 <Raystm2> ya all my life 
13:50:56 <lynx`> that's great!
13:51:10 <Raystm2> wait for exGuitarLesson.com -- coming this summer
13:51:38 <lynx`> I am, too.
13:51:42 <Raystm2> I promise I can teach anybody how to play 80% + of all western songs ever written in under 15 minutes :)
13:51:45 <lynx`> (although in a state of remission, heh.)
13:51:46 <Raystm2> what do you play?
13:51:49 <Raystm2> hehe
13:52:04 <lynx`> the synthesizer.
13:52:09 <Raystm2> oh that's fun
13:52:17 * Raystm2 played synth on last cd :)
13:52:24 <lynx`> (I keep it vague, because I'm fairly flexible in respect to the interface to which I perform with.)
13:52:32 <lynx`> neat. which synth?
13:52:45 <Raystm2> I believe if mem servs it was a roland
13:52:50 <lynx`> neat.
13:52:59 <Raystm2> It was a friends
13:53:10 <lynx`> I used to have a rather decent studio with a lot of neat vintage digital synthesizers.
13:53:26 <Raystm2> I had written a song on my birthday 10 years ago and the next day we recorded it and the next week I put synth on it.
13:53:33 <Raystm2> way cool
13:53:36 <lynx`> I was going through a bad time in my life, and found every possible excuse not to make the best of my situation and write music.
13:53:44 <lynx`> that's really slick!
13:54:03 <lynx`> so, I ended up watching each piece of equipment fail one by one, until I had nothing to play.
13:54:09 <Raystm2> ya 
13:54:11 <lynx`> that is where I am, today.
13:54:27 * Raystm2 had a pretty good bout of depression there for a while that only recently ended
13:54:28 <lynx`> this "new" computer is my first effort in two years to try some new things I learned.
13:54:40 <lynx`> (after dealing with many cores issues, first.)
13:54:43 <Raystm2> infact I credit IRC and colorforth for bringing me around
13:55:02 <arke> Raystm2: well, country is generic. Either its G, C, G, C, D or, when lucky, its C, G, F, with an Am thrown in there for good measure
13:55:11 <lynx`> ray: ironic. it was irc and colorforth that served only to further my depression.
13:55:24 <Raystm2> hahahah
13:55:26 <Raystm2> sorry 
13:55:27 <Raystm2> ;)
13:55:33 <Raystm2> arke yes :)\
13:55:54 <Raystm2> tiff is here now on my bed eating an apple. okay arke go pound it :)
13:55:58 <lynx`> I'm now on a computer and some software I just "like" and am not passioniate about.
13:56:07 <arke> Raystm2: ?
13:56:14 <lynx`> in fact, I don't really care, and the interface for music production is less than ideal.
13:56:30 <lynx`> but it is here *now* and I can get to work *now* (as soon as I am comfortable enough using it)
13:56:31 <arke> lynx`: I would like to write a music prodution program in colorforth...
13:56:37 <lynx`> arke: that was dream!
13:56:46 <lynx`> a real-time synthesizer.
13:57:02 * Raystm2 bought cakewalk and have never fired it up :(
13:57:02 <arke> lynx`: after having used Acid, Cakewalk, and recently, Fruity Loops, I think I could make something that works well
13:57:14 <arke> Raystm2: hehe
13:57:15 <lynx`> the latency of embedded/special-purpose hardware, with the power and ultimate flexibility of a general purpose computer.
13:57:24 <Raystm2> I could do the live guitar parts arke :)
13:57:30 <Raystm2> you cant synth that :)
13:57:37 <arke> Nope :)
13:57:39 <lynx`> a software synthesis language for real-time work that used a *real* computer language.
13:57:43 <arke> (although, some people have gotten close)
13:57:53 <lynx`> the prospect of that still makes me drool.
13:57:53 <arke> lynx`: Hehe. 
13:57:55 * lynx` snorts
13:57:56 <Raystm2> ya
13:58:06 <arke> lynx`: I love colorforth, does that count as real? :)
13:58:15 * Raystm2 loves colorforth too 
13:58:21 <lynx`> arke: I'm on UNIX at this point, looking at overhauling an academic program called Music 4C.
13:58:25 * Raystm2 = beta-one
13:58:44 <lynx`> arke: why not?
13:58:44 <Raystm2> what about that music ABC lang?
13:59:02 <arke> lynx`: well, what does _not_ count as real in your book?
13:59:04 <Raystm2> as apposed to teh ABC lang that inspired Python
13:59:28 <lynx`> arke: actually, the context was colorForth.
13:59:46 <lynx`> arke: I just don't like pseudo-languages "designed" for music synthesis.
13:59:55 <lynx`> (ala Csound, say.)
13:59:56 <Raystm2> ABC has a browser meta ( heck whats the term)
14:00:06 <arke> lynx`: Oh, I see.
14:00:10 <Raystm2> ABC is human readable by musicians
14:00:16 <lynx`> I feel they insulate the musician/programmer/sound designer (I don't feel there is a difference between the three)
14:00:18 <arke> lynx`: it could be much better in Forth anyway. You wouldnt be limited to syntax
14:00:25 <lynx`> from the sheer simplicity of working with audio.
14:00:43 <lynx`> and Forth is absolutely the most ideal language for stringing together sounds.
14:01:24 <Raystm2> ABC interface in forth--- hm colorforth-- okay i'll be right back :)
14:01:34 <lynx`> I always thought concept of a Forth word was a perfect analogy for audio signal flow coming in and going out of a bit of a code
14:01:39 <lynx`> (a "black box", per se.)
14:01:45 <lynx`> I have never tried ABC.
14:01:45 <arke> Raystm2: ahaha
14:02:11 <lynx`> you string a series of words, together, and the "flow" of the sound exactly follows the flow of the source code.
14:02:31 <arke> :)
14:02:50 <arke> Yep
14:02:58 <arke> and applying filters and stuff easy too
14:03:02 <arke> :D
14:03:04 <lynx`> too easy.
14:03:06 <lynx`> :-)
14:03:07 <Raystm2> http://abc.sourceforge.net/resources.html
14:03:33 <lynx`> I'll take a look at that soon.
14:03:42 <lynx`> (I don't yet have a graphical web browser on this computer.)
14:03:45 <Raystm2> it's been years for me 
14:03:56 <Raystm2> I wasn't aware of the SF proj
14:04:01 <lynx`> my intention was to eradicate MIDI, actually.
14:04:25 <Raystm2> cool /me hasn't really spent any time learning midi
14:04:25 <lynx`> it stood in the way of true "microtonality"
14:04:31 <Raystm2> i see 
14:04:34 <lynx`> which I don't envision as abiding by any kind of scale
14:04:35 <arke> MIDI is an ugly beast
14:04:52 <Raystm2> son of an earlier computer interface?
14:04:56 <lynx`> I wanted a synthesizer that spontaneously allowed you to perform any pitch at will (within the limitations of your physical coordination)
14:05:11 <lynx`> well, MIDI is great if you play piano.
14:05:17 <lynx`> for anything, it basically sucks.
14:05:26 <lynx`> oh ok, not so bad for drummers, either.
14:05:38 <lynx`> but for anything else...
14:05:38 <Raystm2> http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/music/abc/doc/ABCtutorial.html
14:05:54 <Raystm2> no graphical browser necessary
14:06:00 <arke> yeah, piano is about it
14:06:10 <Raystm2> then i just lied sorry :(
14:06:14 <arke> no string or blown instruments
14:06:18 <lynx`> oh! John Chambers! I've heard of him.
14:06:25 <lynx`> (speaking of microtonality.)
14:06:53 <lynx`> ray: lied? when?
14:07:18 <Raystm2> graphics in the intro of that link sorry PNG images abound
14:07:33 <lynx`> oh, no problem. thank you checking further.
14:08:18 <lynx`> Music 4C is a music synthesis language where instrument specifications are written in C, and scores are put together in a simple Cish notation.
14:08:35 * Raystm2 thinks that Roger Levy's Glypher and ABC and other great music ideas could find a home together
14:08:49 <lynx`> so, when handed a properly assembled score, it will generate an audio file
14:08:58 <Raystm2> cool
14:09:06 <lynx`> not unlike Csound, really.
14:09:12 <lynx`> (they are about the same age, actually.)
14:09:28 <lynx`> but, for a lot of reasons, I really enjoy the simplicity of Music 4C.
14:09:36 <lynx`> and I can maintain it myself without devoting my life to the program.
14:09:42 <lynx`> which is why it is attractive to me right now.
14:09:49 <Raystm2> i see :)
14:09:49 --- quit: ski ("Leaving")
14:10:01 <lynx`> it sort of introduced me to the idea of an "event notation"
14:10:19 <Raystm2> now CSP enters the convo
14:10:22 <lynx`> for a kind of digital audio workstation for synthesizers.
14:10:34 <lynx`> ray: what is CSP?
14:11:10 <Raystm2> Communicating Sequential Processes by CAR Hoare. with into By Dijkstra
14:11:32 <Raystm2> it's a book that many in colorforth are reading right now
14:11:40 <lynx`> slick.
14:11:57 <lynx`> what is Glypher?
14:12:07 <Raystm2> It's free online ill find the link in my back log ( CSP that is )
14:12:20 <Raystm2> Glypher is a colorforth by Roger Levy
14:12:23 <lynx`> oh!
14:12:34 <Raystm2> It's amazing really.
14:12:37 <lynx`> I have not kept abreast of the colorForth developments much as of late.
14:12:41 <Raystm2> each glyph a word
14:12:53 <lynx`> reminds me of APL. :-)
14:12:53 <Raystm2> ya it's getting harder to do -- for sure :)
14:12:55 <arke> Raystm2: ? link?
14:13:18 <Raystm2> arke CSP or Gylipher or both?
14:13:51 <Raystm2> Wait I think mark introduced it in the C4th web log -- checking 
14:13:59 --- quit: qFox ("this quit is sponsored by somebody!")
14:14:21 <crc> http://rogerlevy.blogspot.com/  for info about Glypher
14:14:33 <Raystm2> thanks crc :)
14:14:41 <crc> np
14:14:51 * crc keeps close track of all RetroForth's children
14:15:30 <Raystm2> http://www.usingcsp.com/
14:15:39 <lynx`> Roger Levy seems like a very motivated individual.
14:15:45 <lynx`> his blog is sort of refreshing.
14:15:47 <crc> He is
14:15:58 <Raystm2> yes very inventive
14:15:58 <crc> he knows what he wants and is working hard to achieve it
14:16:11 <lynx`> finding perfection in his own way, with what he has.
14:16:16 <Raystm2> one of the most prolific cf coders indeed
14:16:20 <lynx`> something I didn't learn until just recently.
14:16:47 <Raystm2> lynx` I appreciate that thought whole heartedly
14:16:47 <crc> Raystm2: Glypher's transition to being a ColorForth is pretty recent
14:16:55 <lynx`> ray: thank you.
14:16:59 <Raystm2> well ya
14:17:05 <Raystm2> but well ya
14:17:33 <arke> Raystm2: glypher
14:17:55 <Raystm2> lynx` n/p I'm sure we can benifit from eachothers "french for 'i don't know what' " 
14:18:12 <lynx`> :-)
14:19:07 <Raystm2> arke tankQ ;)
14:20:09 <arke> ???
14:20:16 <arke> Raystm2: i meant, link for glypher please
14:20:17 <arke> :)
14:20:21 <Raystm2> okay tenQ then
14:20:33 <Raystm2> THANK YOU OKAY
14:20:58 <Raystm2> oh oh oh crc put up that link arke
14:21:02 * arke slaps Raystm2 
14:21:05 <arke> :)
14:21:17 <Raystm2> I thought you were helping me spell glypher :)
14:21:27 <arke> :D
14:21:34 <lynx`> what I'm doing now is something of a fall from grace from what I wanted (and indeed had before), I'll admit.
14:21:35 <Raystm2> which I misspelled just earlier your post
14:21:39 <arke> nope, I've giving up with trying to teach you or tiff how to spell :P
14:21:55 <lynx`> but, my hope is to apply some new personal ideas in my working constructively toward an in a slightly more pragmatic way
14:21:57 <Raystm2> We're in texas after all.
14:22:10 <Raystm2> you'll ostrasize us from the commune
14:22:53 <lynx`> I hope we're not Texas.
14:23:01 <lynx`> that's a horrible thought.
14:23:41 <lynx`> (maybe not as bad as Utah, I'll admit. Texas has many redeeming qualities, although I'll admit it takes a lot for my New York sensibilities to admit that.)
14:23:57 <Raystm2> ( if arke teaches me how to spell, i'll have to move. )
14:24:03 <lynx`> (I hope I'm not offending anyone here from either of those two states. I've just acquired an unfortunate perspective on the both of them.)
14:24:17 <lynx`> ray: oh. that came about from a spelling error?
14:24:30 <Raystm2> hehe /me from MA and CA and I can tell ya loads about all three :)
14:24:32 <lynx`> (I wasn't even paying attention.)
14:24:39 <Raystm2> :)
14:24:41 <Raystm2> ya 
14:24:42 <Raystm2> hehe
14:25:37 <lynx`> ray: neat.
14:25:57 <lynx`> I try to spell as best as I can online, but I generally don't care what others do.
14:26:30 <lynx`> (Most are simply typographical errors anyway, or simple errors that don't impede communication.)
14:26:31 <Raystm2> ya me too :)
14:26:40 <Raystm2> exactly
14:27:05 <Raystm2> message gets through, good enough for me.
14:27:07 <lynx`> some people really get in a tussle when someone uses poor grammar or doesn't spell well, even when they have some good ideas.
14:27:22 <arke> oh oh oh!!!
14:27:23 <arke> idea
14:27:25 <arke> for glypher
14:27:28 <arke> from top to bottom
14:27:29 <Raystm2> might even by why the get good ideas
14:27:33 <lynx`> I think educational standards are important (especially today!), but some people are just assholes about that kind of thing.
14:27:35 <arke> TheYLL THINK YOURE PROGRAMMING THE MATRIX
14:27:37 <arke> ahahaa
14:27:45 <crc> arke: roger is already considering that
14:27:57 <arke> sweeet
14:28:08 <lynx`> arke: for each person, they are programming their own matrix every second of every day.
14:28:16 <lynx`> who needs a program to illuminate that fact?
14:28:20 <lynx`> :P
14:28:36 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ts001d0668.wdc-dc.xod.concentric.net) joined #forth
14:28:45 <lynx`> (I'll admit that my old depression haunts me at times, and I forget that.)
14:28:49 <Raystm2> TheBlueWizard :) how the heck are you man?
14:29:16 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Raystm2 :) I'm doing fine :)
14:29:16 <Raystm2> lynx` ya , sympathies. I just try to find something to keep mind off.
14:29:57 <Raystm2> infact lynx`  TheBlueWizard helped me diagnose myself one day, and i've been better eversince
14:30:09 <lynx`> I'm pleased to hear that!
14:30:10 <Raystm2> no kidding
14:30:18 <Raystm2> remember TheBlueWizard?
14:30:25 <Raystm2> you remember that convo?
14:30:29 <Raystm2> I do.
14:30:47 <lynx`> I discovered that I walled myself into my electronic music studio and computers precisely so I could control my environment independently of people (at least part of the time).
14:30:51 <TheBlueWizard> I did help???  hmm....well, thanks!
14:30:52 <lynx`> I used to be a terrible misanthrope.
14:30:54 <Raystm2> I try to keep myself from being too - too self-indulgent
14:31:04 <Raystm2> too self centered
14:31:20 <lynx`> I'm pleased to be self-centered.
14:31:23 <lynx`> I like myself that way.
14:31:24 <Raystm2> ya me too :)
14:31:45 <lynx`> But, I get afraid because I often really get caught up with distractions from my main objectives.
14:31:48 <TheBlueWizard> I remember discussing about your condition, and had advised you to see a doctor...that's about all I remember
14:31:51 <Raystm2> wife has these projects, and i try to help there to feel better.
14:31:59 <lynx`> and that is when I fail at being self-centered, and start wastiing my time.
14:32:38 <Raystm2> TheBlueWizard: you gave me links -- I read them -- I took charge of my depression and my ( what? elation?) 
14:32:54 --- join: sproingie (~chuck@64-121-15-14.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth
14:32:57 <Raystm2> to recognise them for what they are
14:33:06 <Raystm2> and to not panic
14:33:11 <Raystm2> to breathe
14:33:17 <lynx`> I walked away from my old life, walled myself into an apartment in a strange town, and dealt with myself as I almost starved to death.
14:33:26 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...I don't remember giving you the links...but I'm happy it worked out well for ya :)
14:33:27 <Raystm2> ya me to :)
14:33:27 <lynx`> it was exciting, and horrid at the same tie.
14:33:45 <Raystm2> and ya me to 
14:34:00 <lynx`> it is an amazing thing when you have to face yourself each and every day, and can't blame a girlfriend, family, or friends, or anyone else from getting in the way your true ambitions.
14:34:02 <Raystm2> ya lynx` -- i was walled up in my room for two years
14:34:09 <TheBlueWizard> and I was happy to have a sympathetic ear for my woes back then...
14:34:11 <lynx`> every ugly thought comes out for you to see in broad daylight.
14:34:21 <Raystm2> TheBlueWizard : irc saved me :)
14:34:29 <arke> :)
14:34:35 <Raystm2> community saved me
14:34:35 <lynx`> ray: that's really great to hear!
14:34:55 <Raystm2> arke saved me to -- the little shit ;)
14:34:58 <TheBlueWizard> Raystm2: hehe
14:35:10 <lynx`> being online and seeing so many smart people who were "could have beens" or "should have beens" depressed the hell out of me.
14:35:19 <Raystm2> hehehehehehe
14:35:19 <lynx`> worse I surrounded myself with a whole lot of them.
14:35:20 <arke> Raystm2: :D
14:35:21 <Raystm2> ahahahahahah
14:35:28 <Raystm2> i'm one :)
14:35:53 <Raystm2> shoulda woulda coulda been a who-dunnit.
14:36:01 <lynx`> if you can look at yourself each day, and admit it, and use that as impetus to move forward to do something about it, that's great.
14:36:08 <lynx`> I'm still struggling with that, myself.
14:36:44 <lynx`> (and without laughing it off or using some other means to "buffer" the hurt of admitting your true feelings about yourself or life state.)
14:36:46 <Raystm2> just wake up everyday. weird how the universe of plenty is trying it's darnedest to give you what ever you concentrate on.
14:37:05 <lynx`> ray: that was the ugliest thing for me.
14:37:20 <lynx`> realizing just how much opportunity I squandered in the process of concentrating on "making it"
14:37:37 <lynx`> I was handed opportunity by the truckload, and I ignored it.
14:37:38 <Raystm2> ya -- addmitting it's your own fault and takeing responsibility is a fun transition.
14:38:04 <lynx`> I have no doubt that if I had even taken up on half of my opportunity
14:38:19 <Raystm2> and not caring too too much about the ending... 
14:38:24 <lynx`> I'd have a bigshot job at a place like IBM, or running my own advertising company, or really made big bucks in music.
14:38:28 <lynx`> but, in truth, I didn't want any of that.
14:38:37 <lynx`> and in a sense, I'm not regretful about turning all of this down.
14:38:47 <lynx`> but, on the hand, I could have used that as a stepping stone.
14:38:47 <Raystm2> yeah!!!
14:38:52 <Raystm2> sure
14:38:57 <lynx`> I didn't think in terms of stepping stones.
14:39:02 <Raystm2> right
14:39:04 <Raystm2> I know
14:39:04 <lynx`> I wasn't incremental in development.
14:39:11 <Raystm2> yes
14:39:21 <lynx`> I was always shooting to skip steps in accordance with a strict, twisted concept of personal idealism.
14:39:40 <lynx`> I was concentrating on the implementation, rather than the purity of the ideas that made me drool.
14:39:53 <Raystm2> you can program the direction you'll take, You first have to define your you. then what your you needs to get to the goal.
14:39:57 <Raystm2> then act
14:40:22 <lynx`> strangely, I advocated incremental program development, while shooting for top-down life development. :P
14:40:39 <Raystm2> and have ( yikes ) faith you'll recieve what you deserve :)
14:40:46 <Raystm2> hahaha
14:41:08 <lynx`> I say that, and its funny, but the moronic contradictions in my logic really get me sometimes.
14:41:09 <Raystm2> ya top down hehehehe
14:41:34 <lynx`> on one hand, I *know* something, and on the other hand, I know *nothing*, as is evidenced by my duality in practice.
14:41:45 <Raystm2> right i get that 
14:41:48 <lynx`> my intentions to make myself more integrated and less modal was an abysmal failure.
14:42:05 <Raystm2> that too
14:42:18 <lynx`> I don't like "throwing switches" to turn knowledge on and off in your head when doing different things in your day, like so many people do.
14:42:33 <Raystm2> that i dont get :) hehehehe
14:42:39 <lynx`> and I think the best way to avoid that (I think!) is just to follow your own impulses, and not be so stuck up with philosophies beyond living what you know the best that you can.
14:42:45 <lynx`> well, consider a lot of smart people.
14:42:53 <lynx`> they know an awful lot in a select subject matter.
14:43:06 <lynx`> and somehow, the cohesiveness and beauty that they know in that realm of their minds
14:43:07 <Raystm2> granted
14:43:11 <lynx`> is absent in the rest of their lives.
14:43:19 <Raystm2> yes
14:43:21 <Raystm2> i see
14:43:25 <lynx`> somehow, there is a wall that partitions what they love or work on with the rest of their life.
14:43:38 <Raystm2> from all other considerations
14:43:39 <Raystm2> hmmm
14:43:39 <lynx`> many times, if they let everything "bleed through" they would have a lot more answers to work with.
14:43:48 <Raystm2> oka
14:43:50 <Raystm2> y
14:43:51 <lynx`> I like "cohesive" knowledge.
14:44:02 <lynx`> the kind that hangs together, and works universally.
14:44:31 <lynx`> and opening and closing a drawer of knowledge, when I'm working on a computer, say, doesn't seem like the most optimal way to apply myself.
14:44:52 <Raystm2> i seem to see some of these people and they seem foriegn to me. My boss for instance, Very wealthy and productive in his 40+ years in his industry....
14:45:12 <Raystm2> man and boy = stayed in the same game
14:45:19 <Raystm2> made a mint by 30
14:45:24 <Raystm2> continues to do so
14:45:33 <Raystm2> he's a hunter and a fisherman
14:45:44 <Raystm2> I can't stand either activity 
14:46:03 <Raystm2> but I can see similarities in all three activities
14:46:19 <lynx`> so can I, unfortunately.
14:46:42 <Raystm2> so,, if I can't stand the basics ---how can I enjoy the main?
14:46:50 <lynx`> you see how his life ethic paints itself on the wall through how he expresses himself each day.
14:46:57 <lynx`> understandable.
14:47:00 <Raystm2> I happen to be very good at it btw :)
14:47:18 <lynx`> I bet!
14:47:29 <Raystm2> I've made him more money than He cares to addmit :)
14:47:34 <Raystm2> or pay me :)
14:47:48 <lynx`> of course. the true capitalist doing what he does best.
14:47:56 <Raystm2> yes
14:48:11 <lynx`> (I say that without a positive or negative connotation attached.)
14:48:54 <Raystm2> I have 3-5 wonderful ideas to make us both very rich but i'm having a problem communicating these to him,, that wall is comming down nicely -- lately :)
14:49:06 <lynx`> I'm sorry to hear that. :P
14:49:20 <Raystm2> ya-- he's finally coming around.
14:49:53 <Raystm2> we'll see
14:49:59 <lynx`> excellent luck!
14:50:26 <Raystm2> especially since he has recently fired the guy that fired me, ( guy was a thief) and got me back >
14:50:44 <lynx`> I'll admit that I'll breathe a little easier when I'm reliably working full-time, not walking 4 miles to work each day, and making more than .25 an hour.
14:50:49 <Raystm2> Honey-dos gotta go :(
14:50:55 <lynx`> .25 .25
14:50:58 <lynx`> akk
14:51:02 <Raystm2> hehe
14:51:06 <lynx`> seven dollars twenty-five.
14:51:26 <Raystm2> age?
14:51:27 <lynx`> (I need to turn off parameter expansion. dollar-signs are a no-no.)
14:51:32 <Raystm2> oh 
14:51:33 <lynx`> twenty-three.
14:51:47 <lynx`> it's pretty sad, I'll admit.
14:52:00 <Raystm2> well i'm 41 and i'm starting again :) that's supposed to be a pick me up some how :)
14:52:05 <lynx`> I'm in amazing physical shape (8 miles round-trip! I better be!), but it sucks.
14:52:32 <Raystm2> now I really gotta help Nanette brb :)
14:52:42 <lynx`> 41 isn't old at all.
14:52:52 <lynx`> sure!
14:52:56 <lynx`> thanks for yakking with me. :-)
15:13:04 <lynx`> I'm off.
15:13:11 <lynx`> Thank you for allowing me to waste all of your time.
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15:14:23 <Raystm2> TheBlueWizard right no links -- you pointed me to wikipedia definitions of what I may be suffering. 
15:14:42 <Raystm2> I linked from there
15:42:27 <TheBlueWizard> ah hmm...ok
15:42:49 <TheBlueWizard> I now vaguely remember mentioning about Wikipedia article...
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15:47:40 <Raystm2> See IRC works for what ever problem you have, you just need the right room with the right person\people\mix
15:48:24 <TheBlueWizard> heh...it is a bit iffy thing....hard to find the right foo\=bar\bah thing :P
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15:59:30 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye!
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16:17:35 <zoly> g'day
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17:44:30 * crc is back
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19:10:23 <arke> http://dotquote.org/chris/
19:10:24 <arke> :D
20:08:32 <arke> http://dotquote.org/chris/
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.06.12