00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.06.04 00:11:54 --- quit: asymptote ("Free the mallocs!") 00:25:48 --- join: alexander_ (~alexander@69.17.112.153) joined #forth 00:25:49 hey 01:35:25 --- join: Topaz (~top@sown-87.ecs.soton.ac.uk) joined #forth 01:53:47 --- quit: LOOP-HOG (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:08:52 --- join: qFox (~C00K13S@92pc222.sshunet.nl) joined #forth 02:39:28 --- quit: Topaz ("Leaving") 02:40:02 --- join: Topaz (~top@sown-87.ecs.soton.ac.uk) joined #forth 03:06:58 --- quit: Topaz ("Leaving") 03:13:39 good morning 03:45:20 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp01375108pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 04:38:45 --- join: saonfbsd (~saonfbsd@c-66-177-224-130.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 04:44:21 --- quit: saonfbsd ("installing and upgrading stuff") 04:45:32 --- join: saonfbsd (~saonfbsd@c-66-177-224-130.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 04:47:30 --- join: hrmpf (~hrmpf@gw.mastmoen.no) joined #forth 05:26:43 --- quit: tathi ("Lost terminal") 05:37:43 --- join: danniken (CapStone@adsl-69-153-116-99.dsl.ltrkar.swbell.net) joined #forth 08:06:07 --- join: twb (twb@CPE-144-132-68-119.vic.bigpond.net.au) joined #forth 08:08:25 Hi. I've got a Common Lisp background an want to learn a bit about Forth to know what it can do. Would anyone care to recommend tutorials, textbooks, compilers, &c? 08:10:32 wow this channel IS starting to gain a following of dedicated idlers :) 08:12:52 twb: try www.forth.org 08:38:22 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp01375108pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:02:48 twb: What do you want to do with it? 09:03:15 twb: ANS Forth is probably what's most like cl (big ;), but for other uses there are different forths. 09:04:44 one big problem about forth is that today aren't any good apps which aren't editors or chess games which are coded in forth. 09:05:14 lol 09:05:22 Robert: I basically just want to do enough forth to understand "the forth way", if you know what I mean. 09:05:47 twb: Hm, that usually means making the program as small and simple as possible. 09:06:12 the forth way is: factoring factoring and factoring 09:06:51 My theory is that people really, really want to avoid writing a lot of Forth code - so they keep everything simple. 09:09:14 I want a tutorial that says "OK, you know programming in general. Here is forth syntax and some basic words. Here are some examples. Here are some more words..." 09:10:06 http://www.forth.org/tutorials.html 09:10:27 twb: Forth syntax is a one-line chapter. :) 09:10:52 hrmpf: any particular recommendation from that lot? 09:11:44 twb: By default words separated by white spaces are read in, and interpreted/compiled one by one. Words can also read from the input stream to "simulate" a more advanced syntax, but this is relatively uncommon. 09:11:47 Leo Brodie's Starting Forth is good, though kind of dated 09:11:53 (in some respects) 09:12:22 twb: Do you do any assembly language programming? I learnt forth from that pov, and it worked well. 09:12:30 I think 09:12:30 Simple Forth by Leo Wong 09:12:37 O 09:13:01 Er, I've studied 68k and MIPS assembly at school, but I don't use it for real work. 09:13:03 is good 09:13:06 yeah, I remember thinking that was good too 09:13:50 I wonder if you have to be called Leo to write good tutorials... 09:18:33 hrmpf: haha 09:18:38 teh hies everybody 09:19:36 "teh hies" was not annoying the first time I heard it. 09:19:59 its my unique greeting. it makes me unique. 09:20:00 :) 09:20:31 --- quit: KB1FYR (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:20:40 That doesn't have to be a good thing. 09:21:29 --- join: KB1FYR (~Alex@196-220.suscom-maine.net) joined #forth 09:25:53 It is. 09:25:59 Now Go Away. (tm) 09:26:00 :) 09:26:04 (just kidding) 09:26:06 whats up? 09:28:17 Summer vacation. 09:28:19 Dog. 09:31:16 updog? :) 09:41:20 --- part: twb left #forth 09:45:30 --- quit: saonfbsd ("room going offline") 09:45:30 --- quit: saon ("room going offline") 09:45:31 --- quit: saon|smgl ("room going offline") 10:02:51 Re: minimalism 10:02:56 "The small size (16K) of the Skylab software and correspondingly small group of programmers assigned to write it (never more than 75 people, not all of whom were programmers, and only 5 or 6 for the reactivation software), meant that the difficulties in communication and configuration control associated with large projects were not as much of a factor." 10:03:20 kalium:~# du -h /usr/bin/ 10:03:20 122M /usr/bin/ 10:25:42 --- quit: KB1FYR (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:26:25 --- join: KB1FYR (~Alex@196-220.suscom-maine.net) joined #forth 10:30:15 --- join: AlexF (~Alex@196-220.suscom-maine.net) joined #forth 10:47:25 --- quit: KB1FYR (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:20:55 --- join: sproingie (~chuck@64-121-15-14.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 11:21:01 Hi 11:21:26 * sproingie waves 11:21:48 HIH!!!!!!111 11:22:46 OMG!!!! LOL! 11:23:06 The good thing about wearing rugged clothes is that relatives give you free clothes because they pity you. 11:23:27 I440r gave me a great idea that's probably already been done, but would be a neat project 11:23:42 Oh, what is it? 11:23:53 said "linux is my bios". thought hey, why not do a linux from scratch that serves ONLY as a driver host 11:24:21 no glibc, no users, no permission structure 11:24:44 just a host for some syscalls and device drivers 11:24:48 Isn't that called a microkernel? 11:25:21 yeah, i guess so. technically a microkernel would put even drivers out of process 11:27:46 Too bad there's no "standard computer", then :) 11:28:25 like a mac? 11:28:41 actually even those vary by generation 11:28:59 And most people use distorted IBM "clones" anyway. 11:29:20 With loads of different hardware - a lot of which documentation isn't even available! 11:29:25 +for 11:29:58 sproingie: isn't that what the asmutils are for? 11:35:12 asmutils would be a great start 11:35:24 eh. probably a decent endpoint too 11:35:47 unfortunately i'm going to want X as well. or at least a working DRI 11:35:54 ahh 11:36:02 so you need libc then 11:36:13 i think the only usable host for DRI is X right now. basically i want the proprietary ATI driver to work 11:36:19 ati and nvidia 11:36:42 bleh. i don't want the whole bloated mass of glibc if i can at all help it 11:37:08 yeah 11:37:21 i figure you can see what i'm aiming at 11:37:26 * crc uses dietlibc when he has to use C 11:38:31 the ati driver depends on modular kernel, of course, which means some filesystem support unless i hack the kernel module loader 11:39:22 Linux relys on some filesystem support 11:40:21 When I did my experimental RetroForth+Linux system, I had an inital ramdisk with rf as the init process, and a few parts of the library on the ramdisk 11:40:38 I never did get far enough on that project.... 11:41:00 neat. i should probably start with 32 bit linux, much easier to find images 11:41:29 been looking in vain for 64 bit bochs/qemu images to start with 11:44:53 yeah 11:56:25 --- join: slava (~slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 11:56:47 how can i shift left by 3 bits using rlwinm? 11:56:53 i want to avoid using a temporary register and doing slw 12:07:13 i should just rtfm :) 12:07:19 anyway, i'll be back later 12:29:50 --- join: saon (1000@c-66-177-224-130.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:32:08 slava: slwi rA,rS,n = rlwinm rA,rS,n,0,31-n 12:32:31 (and I copied that from the manual, so it should actually be correct :) 12:32:47 --- quit: AlexF () 12:32:53 --- join: saon_ (~saon@c-66-177-224-130.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:33:04 --- nick: saon_ -> saon|smgl 12:38:01 --- join: KB1FYR (~Alex@196-220.suscom-maine.net) joined #forth 13:05:14 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 13:13:56 hey 13:15:15 Hi. 13:18:01 i never actually noticed it, but when dealing with network coding, you're dealing with a continous stream of string conversions 13:18:12 string>numbers and back 13:18:48 also, why the FUCK is java not by default able to parse Double strings in a different base :@ 13:19:42 the uniqueid from an emailserver is, appearantly, sent in hex format. so either i do string comparisons the whole time, or i parse the number and do Double comparisons 13:19:50 Because Java assumes you're an idiot who NEVER leaves base 10 ;) 13:20:00 well 13:20:01 i never do 13:20:06 :( 13:20:10 Idiot! 13:20:13 ;D 13:20:16 but the fucktart that came up with the smtp protocol :( 13:20:19 ehr 13:20:19 pop3 13:20:35 god how did that sucky protocol ever become so popular :s 13:20:35 floats are usually given in base10 ... tho it would have been nice for symmetry 13:20:43 its simple 13:20:52 and shakey 13:21:03 you have to keep very very good track of what command you sent last 13:21:15 What does a mailing protocol do with floats anyway? 13:21:25 i mean, cant it just do like irc, send control codes with every reply 13:21:31 the unique id 13:21:38 or like smtp for that matter 13:21:39 every email has an id on the server 13:21:42 smtp was well designed 13:21:42 It's a FLOAT? 13:21:51 float, double, w/e 13:21:56 Heh. 13:22:01 its huge 13:22:04 Is there ANY reason for that? 13:22:09 oh you mean a long? 13:22:14 413768190000033d 13:22:21 heh i guess a forther could confuse a double with a long 13:22:29 i was just going with Double for fucks sake :) 13:22:39 i dont think that d signifies anything. the id's are opaque, no? 13:22:45 in what way? 13:23:17 and i never could remember the exact size of a float, long, double 13:23:59 well there is no one "float" size. long in C is guaranteed 32 bits 13:24:20 ... its java 13:24:24 double prec floating point is ... 48 bits? can never remember 13:24:26 and it's Double 13:24:34 --- join: Topaz (~top@sown-88.ecs.soton.ac.uk) joined #forth 13:24:51 A constant holding the largest positive finite value of type double, (2-2-52)ยท21023. 13:25:05 hm, the power sign gets lost on irc 13:25:32 (2-2^(-52))*2^1023 13:25:40 http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/api/java/lang/Double.html 13:25:41 but anyways 13:26:00 where Integer has some valueOf classes that can parse other bases, Double fails... 13:27:41 fuckit, i'll do string comparisons 13:27:59 its not like you'll have a million emails in one folder anyways 13:29:41 quite possible. but if it's a speed thing it'll still be fast enough 13:30:02 well, lets say you have 500 mails on the server 13:30:09 and 499 mails in your mailbox 13:30:11 * sproingie deals with million+ message spools every day 13:30:24 but i deal with them raw, and not in one file thats for sure 13:30:29 it'll do 500*500 matches every time you check mail just to ensure you have them all 13:31:00 well... actually 500*250 i suppose 13:31:20 the message check thing is a hack on top of pop3 13:31:24 it was never designed for that 13:31:33 it was never designed for anything :( 13:31:34 pop3 is supposed to be a pull MTA protocol 13:31:42 transfer the ENTIRE mailbox 13:31:53 check and delete 13:31:55 uhu 13:32:00 was never designed to be a wire protocol for MUA's 13:32:26 i'd agree it wasnt designed much at all tho 13:58:35 --- join: AlexF (~Alex@196-220.suscom-maine.net) joined #forth 13:58:35 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:59:50 --- join: Raystm2 (~vircuser@adsl-68-93-40-211.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 14:17:51 --- quit: KB1FYR (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:25:18 --- quit: Robert ("Night.") 14:56:51 --- quit: qFox ("this quit is sponsored by somebody!") 14:58:08 --- join: T0paz (~top@sown-88.ecs.soton.ac.uk) joined #forth 14:58:10 --- quit: Topaz (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:58:20 --- nick: T0paz -> Topaz 15:09:53 --- quit: warpzero (Excess Flood) 15:09:55 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@wza.us) joined #forth 15:30:32 --- quit: hrmpf ("whatever you do, do it right the first time...") 16:03:11 --- quit: Topaz (Remote closed the connection) 16:36:53 --- part: zol1 left #forth 19:32:02 re.. 19:34:11 any idea what the cleanest replacement for s" is in isForth? 19:34:36 ," and then pulling out the address from the dictionary? 19:39:58 looks like ," and then a literal 19:41:39 with a here before that 19:49:40 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp01375108pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:16:02 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 20:39:35 alexander_, can't you just write a s" ? 20:41:52 slava: that word doesn't seem to be available 20:42:03 not in isforth 20:42:07 because I440r is a pedant 20:42:22 alexander_, you can define a s" 20:42:24 that's what i meant 20:43:05 and hi arke 20:43:46 slava: yah, well that's why I asked what the cleanest way to go about that was. 20:44:01 --- join: KB1FYR (~Alex@196-220.suscom-maine.net) joined #forth 20:44:02 and it turns out I can just do a here ," literal 20:48:32 --- join: snoopy_1711 (snoopy_161@dsl-084-058-131-063.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 20:54:02 --- quit: AlexF (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 20:56:48 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 20:56:50 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 22:37:24 --- quit: sproingie (Remote closed the connection) 23:11:26 anybody on windows want to recommend me a gecko based browser that does NOT (!) use 1000000001492845198571985719871987519871984 megabytes of memory per tab? 23:42:23 --- quit: slava (Remote closed the connection) 23:45:07 links 23:47:51 heh 23:47:57 kmeleon seems to work well 23:48:19 uses 20MB for my test versus 55 for firefox and 70 for netscape 23:49:21 memory is cheap :) 23:52:04 True. 23:52:13 But since applications tend to take that saying to the extreme 23:52:20 those 512MB fill up WAY fucking quickly 23:52:26 and I usually have many tabs open too 23:59:50 yep 23:59:55 you need a big harddrive too 23:59:59 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.06.04