00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.06.03 00:05:21 --- quit: OrngeTide ("gnite") 00:26:51 --- quit: virl ("Verlassend") 00:31:32 --- quit: Herkamire ("off to bed") 02:36:14 --- join: qFox (~C00K13S@92pc222.sshunet.nl) joined #forth 02:48:46 --- quit: saon ("leaving") 03:49:01 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp01375108pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 03:51:44 --- quit: tathi (Client Quit) 06:04:47 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving") 06:42:19 --- join: I440r (~mark4@216-110-82-203.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 06:42:19 --- quit: I440r (Client Quit) 06:42:51 --- join: I440r (~mark4@216-110-82-203.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 07:04:45 --- nick: onetom_ -> onetom 07:05:11 Hi, 1tomm 07:31:07 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving") 07:33:52 --- join: I440r (~mark4@216-110-82-203.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 07:39:11 --- join: tkb (~tkb@63.163.164.6) joined #forth 07:45:39 --- join: sproingie (~chuck@64-121-15-14.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 07:57:50 --- join: swsch (~s@p5492324C.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 08:00:40 Hi 08:08:19 --- part: swsch left #forth 08:24:55 --- quit: saon|smgl (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:47:12 --- quit: sproingie (Remote closed the connection) 09:05:20 --- join: virl (anonymous@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 10:41:17 --- join: saon|smgl (~saon@c-66-177-224-130.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:54:31 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@c-24-218-95-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:54:31 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Herkamire 11:42:28 --- quit: Raystm2 ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 12:35:18 --- join: hrmpf (~hrmpf@gw.mastmoen.no) joined #forth 12:36:09 Hej. 12:36:31 howdy 12:58:10 --- quit: qFox ("this quit is sponsored by somebody!") 14:03:52 --- part: tkb left #forth 14:14:01 Who would win in a fight... ANS, or Forth 83? 14:16:31 ANS, because it would ansa F83's fingrar! 14:17:00 (in reality I know too little about both) 14:17:17 Robert, WTF is a fingrar? 14:17:26 Compared to most other forths, they're very similar. 14:17:30 fingers 14:17:48 I... see. 14:17:59 Well ANS contains much of F83, I believe. 14:18:03 That was a very bad joke (assuming that you speak swedish, otherwise it's just nonsense) 14:18:06 But F83 is pretty lean and mean. 14:18:44 I think it would kick ANS's ass. ANS would still be compiling and F83 would be swap drop dup-ing all over its face. 14:20:43 --- quit: KB1FYR (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:21:24 F83 be like "awww yea, take that bizyatch! SWAP! SWAP!" 14:21:34 --- join: KB1FYR (~Alex@196-220.suscom-maine.net) joined #forth 14:21:37 I think so, yes. 14:21:41 ;) 14:21:45 Actually F79 should beat them all. 14:21:58 I should look more into F79. 14:22:02 Hard to track down a spec though. 14:22:31 I mean, what happend 1983? NOTHING. What happend 1979? Nuclear fun, AND VOYAGER VISITED JUPITER. 14:22:48 Hm, not sure what F79 is like though. I assume F83ish :) 14:23:20 Well, the C64 was out in '82 or so. So F83 came along just in time! But I see what you're saying... 14:23:31 F79 witnessed the death of Disco. 14:23:40 * Robert has been testing forths on his C128 14:23:44 F83 was all like... "new wave?" 14:23:54 Oooh, you have a real 128? 14:24:08 A guy even sent me a floppy with Blazin' Forth on it. :) 14:24:09 Yeah. 14:24:18 :D Awesome. Yea, I like Blazin' Forth. 14:24:19 C128D even. 14:24:26 From what I understand, it's the best one. 14:24:33 Yeah... 14:24:37 Haven't used it much though. 14:24:40 D... what did the D have? 14:24:42 Prefer asm. 14:24:50 A big case and built-in floppy. 14:24:55 Ahh right. 14:25:11 So, do you have any modifications to it? USB? ;) 14:26:01 Hah, nah... I even got a datasette (uhm, actually, I just borrowed it) and removed the cartrige with some extras :D 14:26:13 But that's mostly because it was broken. 14:28:00 * Robert is working at some other retrocomputing projects though. Right now I'm building a computer from discrete transistors (using mostly DTL logic). 14:28:08 I think the consumer market is ripe for a cheap, "modern" retro-style computer... like the gaming joysticks you see lately, just plug it in to the TV and go. 14:28:19 * madwork was considering building a computer as well. 14:28:22 Really? Never seen any, 14:28:24 Hehe 14:28:32 But not from transistors. :O 14:28:39 I got a rail of rca1802 CPUs on a flea market recently 14:28:42 9 or so 14:28:45 Haha, cool. 14:28:55 AND, 25+ 2864 eeproms :) 14:29:04 Those are serial, right? 14:29:09 Nope. 14:29:12 Parallel. 14:29:27 And also about 20 EPROMS :) 14:29:56 No eraser, but enough for a few years of ROM burning...even though I'm giving away a bunch of them. 14:29:57 64K? 14:30:13 Oh, EPROMs. Ick. I prefer EEPROMs. :) 14:30:26 64K? 14:31:14 UV-lamp... or even sunlight erases EPROM's 14:31:34 Yep, that's how we did it back in college. 14:31:44 then, we made eeprom emulators. Those were useful. 14:31:56 true 14:33:45 If I were to start another project, I'd definitely go the route of an eeprom emulator. 14:33:59 eeprom emulator? 14:34:02 How about an async cpu? like the ARM based amulet... no clocks... 14:34:26 Don't know enough about them. I'd want to start simple to get back into it. 14:34:45 Robert, yea... basically, some SRAM that I download my code into, and it acts like an EEPROM to the computer. 14:35:18 then when my code is all nice and finished, I burn a real PROM/EPROM/EEPROM 14:35:25 Battery-backed? 14:35:26 Saved a ton of time. 14:35:39 Cool. 14:35:49 No, why use batteries? I just plugged it in. :) 14:36:18 Oh, you download the code when it's in the circuit? 14:36:24 Then use the PC's serial port (if I recall) to DL the code to the SRAM. Flick a switch, and it's in EEPROM mode, then turn on the computer. 14:36:33 Yep. 14:36:38 Neat. 14:37:00 Yea, sure beats waiting 15 minutes (or however long it was) for erasure each time. 14:37:25 Too bad I don't have mine anymore. :( 14:37:29 I'll have to make another. 14:45:01 I guess you've seen this one... but anywayz, a good example for a homebrewer... ;-) 14:45:04 http://www.homebrewcpu.com/ 14:45:25 Yeah, cool site (and webring, for that matter) 14:46:57 anyhow, how many instructions do you *need* in a cpu to get it working? 14:48:04 One? :) 14:48:10 :P 14:48:23 This is my instruction set: http://robos.org/wiki.pl?Computer 14:48:25 NOP NOP NOP ... 14:48:28 Hehe 14:58:01 yoh 15:04:24 got to go, cya 15:04:47 --- part: hrmpf left #forth 15:05:56 Hi, alexander_. 15:14:53 --- join: tathi (~josh@68.81.165.175) joined #forth 15:15:12 Hi 15:17:10 Hi all 15:26:58 teh hies 15:28:40 sup guys? 15:29:01 Not much.. 16:19:49 --- join: Raystm2 (~vircuser@adsl-68-93-122-217.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 16:22:30 Hi 16:46:38 --- quit: Robert (Remote closed the connection) 16:46:44 --- join: Robert (~snofs@c-f778e055.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 17:44:59 um ldgt[gdtr] mov eax,cr0; jmp 0x8 that's not valid x86 assembler is it ? 17:45:50 jmp 0x8:offset I think... 17:46:02 ok ok thx 17:46:39 are you trying to enter pmode with that? 17:46:49 just curious 17:46:58 actually it said "ldgt[gdtr] mov eax,cr0; jmp 0x8:code" 17:47:06 hmm 17:47:07 I use: 17:47:07 ; Load the GDT, and set the pmode bit 17:47:07 lgdt [gdt] 17:47:07 mov eax, cr0 17:47:07 inc eax 17:47:08 mov cr0, eax 17:47:10 ; Jump to pmode code 17:47:12 jmp dword 8:pmode 17:47:14 in retroforth/native 17:47:29 what's the diff ? 17:47:41 the "inc eax; mov cr0, eax" 17:47:53 Yours doesn't update the control register 17:47:54 yeah I can see that; but what practical difference ? 17:48:25 ok, (well it wasn't mine) I just happen to surf upon it (I'm not really at home with x86 at all) just thought it looked weird 17:48:36 but then again I just did simple 16 bit x86 asm long long ago 17:49:22 the "inc eax; mov cr0, eax" actually activates the pmode bit of the control register 17:49:30 gotcha 17:49:50 Saving one byte compared to an OR instruction... well done ;) 17:50:16 crc: so the code I posted don't really activate pmode then ? 17:50:31 nope 17:51:45 --- join: sproingie (~chuck@64-121-15-14.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 17:53:17 ok thx 17:53:28 np 17:58:08 --- join: zoly (~l@p549DB4D8.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 17:58:25 g'day 17:58:38 Hi, zoly. 17:59:04 hi robert 17:59:28 how's your ruby stuff going ? 18:00:18 Haven't done much with it lately - just some stuff to process nasa image data. 18:00:39 me neither, not even started yet 18:01:17 * Robert is currently preparing for the trip to germany, and working at the computer project. 18:01:40 where to ? 18:01:46 Hamburg. 18:02:04 closer to you than to me *g* 18:02:09 Hehe, yeah. 18:07:55 anything new here ? 18:09:23 Activity. 18:09:35 Well, at least earlier tonight. 18:12:45 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 18:18:22 --- join: saon (1000@c-66-177-224-130.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:20:49 heh i just started my first ruby project today 18:21:03 a rails app, naturally 18:30:49 sproingie: are you one of the "53 things to do" people who intend to port jsforth to ruby ? 18:31:14 heh no. i just discovered 43 things today (i thought it was 43, not 53?) 18:31:44 jsforth sounds kinda odd to me, since i see forth as being super-low-level 18:31:57 oh, right 18:32:08 i guess it's good for learning tho 18:32:54 was never good at remembering numbers ... 18:39:03 for understanding the innards of a language it may be helpful to see it implemented in a script language. i'd like to see a bashscheme for example 18:39:45 or, a bashlisp, for that matter 18:42:12 as well, it helps comparing languages if you implement the same thing, such as a forth interpreter, in several languages 19:21:34 may be that microsoft quoted a bit of that book for their anti-linux campaigns too 19:21:46 oh sry, wrong # 19:27:07 zoly: forth is so simple to implement, you don't need to see it in a scripting language 19:27:50 alexander_: the one who doesn't know asm or forth may not agree with you 19:29:15 that may be partly because he doesn't know better 19:33:00 yah, well you don't need to implement Forth in ASM or Forth 19:33:14 writing a Forth in Python takes 30 minutes 19:33:26 for the basic words 19:33:31 thus we're back to scripting languages ? 19:33:47 it has nothing to do with scripting languages 19:33:59 you could write a Forth using a piece of paper and a pencil 19:34:19 I'm just saying the concepts are so simple, you just need to use it and look at it 19:35:03 there are people who like to modify things a bit, to see what happens (or, why something wasn't written differently) 19:35:26 toying around with something new may be important for the learning experience 19:35:32 then use it 19:35:41 you can't hack the internals of a C compiler without knowing C 19:36:08 not sure whether i get your drift now... what's your point, please ? 19:37:35 I already gave you my point. :) if you don't want to follow what I'm saying, then whatever. 19:39:18 1. no need to implement in script lang, 2. it takes 30 minutes to write it in python. 3. no hack c compiler internals without knowledge. i have a bit of problem to understand what you want to tell me. 19:40:49 i mean, i may even want to agree with you, provided i get your drift 19:41:20 zoly: forth is so simple to implement, you don't need to see it in a scripting language 19:41:43 you don't need to see it in a scripting language, because all you'll be seeing is the implementation details of dealing with the scripting language 19:41:50 i'd like to see a bashscheme for example 19:42:03 forge tit 19:42:30 I'm trying to give you advice as someone who as actually implemented a forth. 19:42:36 reallly ? 19:42:42 er who has 19:42:45 oh, you must be a forth god 19:42:49 no, I suck at it 19:42:55 because the implementation isn't the hard part 19:43:15 just one ? 19:43:34 so far 19:43:43 I'm working on another right now for a different chip 19:46:38 is there anyone here who hasn't implemented at least one forth ? 19:47:24 luckily i don't see chanserv here 19:48:50 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 19:49:07 ok ok 19:49:12 forget my prev question 19:49:31 hi crc :) 19:49:42 hi zoly 19:50:25 * crc is about to go to bed 19:50:44 oh, nice of you to check in to tell us *g* 19:50:51 heh 19:50:55 you did say hi :) 19:51:06 * crc was up doing a bit of work on Reva 19:53:01 the factor folks don't seem to hang around here often anymore ? 19:53:57 but i notice openbios is back 19:55:02 yeah 19:55:16 the factor guys are mostly in #concatenative 19:55:52 slava still drops in from time to time 19:57:12 there's a guy on scheme, forcer, who seems to have a forth background 19:57:19 goodnight... 19:57:22 can't remember having seen him here 19:57:57 'night 20:48:06 --- join: snoopy_1711 (snoopy_161@dsl-084-058-132-082.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 20:51:25 --- join: I440r_ (~mark4@rrcs-24-242-160-169.sw.biz.rr.com) joined #forth 20:56:27 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 20:56:38 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 21:10:47 --- join: LOOP-HOG (~chatzilla@sub22-119.member.dsl-only.net) joined #forth 21:16:39 hi 21:17:03 ho LOOP-HOG 21:17:11 --- quit: I440r_ ("Leaving") 21:17:34 have u ever programmed in 4th b4? 21:18:40 4th as one of the implementations ? or shortcut for forth ? 21:20:44 I mean forth 21:20:50 i'll just spell stuff out 21:21:05 well, you point on your website to code of me, and to a system i've written 21:21:13 thus, yes :) 21:21:30 i'm not placing the handle 21:21:34 :^) 21:21:49 http://members.dsl-only.net/~loophog , that's your's, right ? 21:21:53 yup 21:22:09 i'm the forthfreak wiki guy 21:22:18 or the bashforth guy 21:22:18 ok 21:22:26 you point to stringstack too 21:22:33 I haven't updated in eons 21:22:37 ok 21:22:40 i've done a few of those 21:22:54 that's the links i found on your website 21:23:00 there may be more 21:23:23 I got the redirect button 21:23:43 don't point to forthfreak.net/wiki 21:23:53 just to forthfreak.net, or wiki.forthfreak.net 21:24:06 ok 21:24:16 I will put that into my links 21:24:26 nice, thanks 21:25:11 there should be quite a number of devices around containing some of my code 21:25:38 can you tell me which ones? 21:25:46 any with Forth code in them? 21:25:57 i give you a pointer to my project history, so you can find out 21:26:01 ok 21:32:04 seen that movie ? 21:32:28 there's the blind guy in that gang 21:32:48 he's using such of those devices 21:33:08 neat 21:33:11 even the brand is visible there 21:33:28 that's a H8/30xx in there 21:34:04 for which i did the interpreter, and parts of the firmware 21:34:23 nice 21:46:44 --- quit: alexander_ ("Leaving") 22:01:36 --- join: zol1 (~l@p549DE135.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 22:16:16 --- quit: zoly (Connection timed out) 22:54:10 --- join: asymptote (~dmesg@68.48.8.92) joined #forth 22:54:41 --- part: asymptote left #forth 22:54:54 --- quit: sproingie (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:54:54 --- quit: Herkamire (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:54:55 --- quit: Snoopy42 (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:54:55 --- quit: saon (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:54:55 --- quit: warpzero (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:54:56 --- quit: Raystm2 (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:54:56 --- quit: madwork (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:54:56 --- quit: crc (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:54:58 --- quit: skylan (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:54:58 --- quit: onetom (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:54:59 --- quit: KB1FYR (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:55:02 --- quit: Robert (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:55:02 --- quit: virl (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:55:02 --- quit: Frek (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:55:02 --- quit: madgarden (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:55:02 --- quit: LOOP-HOG (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:55:14 --- quit: saon|smgl (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:55:14 --- quit: I440r (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:55:14 --- quit: vitaminmoo (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:55:14 --- quit: easy4 (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:55:14 --- quit: cmeme (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:55:14 --- quit: arke (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:55:14 --- quit: ccfg (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:56:31 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@c-24-218-95-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:56:31 --- join: LOOP-HOG (~chatzilla@sub22-119.member.dsl-only.net) joined #forth 22:56:31 --- join: Snoopy42 (snoopy_161@dsl-084-058-132-082.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 22:56:31 --- join: saon (1000@c-66-177-224-130.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:56:31 --- join: sproingie (~chuck@64-121-15-14.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 22:56:31 --- join: Robert (~snofs@c-f778e055.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 22:56:31 --- join: Raystm2 (~vircuser@adsl-68-93-122-217.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 22:56:31 --- join: KB1FYR (~Alex@196-220.suscom-maine.net) joined #forth 22:56:31 --- join: saon|smgl (~saon@c-66-177-224-130.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:56:31 --- join: virl (anonymous@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 22:56:31 --- join: I440r (~mark4@216-110-82-203.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 22:56:31 --- join: skylan (~sjh@dialup-216-211-47-124.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 22:56:31 --- join: Frek (~anvil@h208n2fls31o815.telia.com) joined #forth 22:56:31 --- join: easy4 (~easy4@pcp01518726pcs.reding01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:56:31 --- join: madwork (~madgarden@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 22:56:31 --- join: onetom (~tom@ns.dunasoft.com) joined #forth 22:56:31 --- join: vitaminmoo (~vitaminmo@dsl-95-113.peak.org) joined #forth 22:56:31 --- join: crc (crc@pool-70-110-180-189.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 22:56:31 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@wza.us) joined #forth 22:56:31 --- join: madgarden (~madgarden@Toronto-HSE-ppp3708127.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 22:56:31 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.2) joined #forth 22:56:31 --- join: arke (f2@bespin.org) joined #forth 22:56:31 --- join: ccfg (ccfg@dsl-roigw3de0.dial.inet.fi) joined #forth 22:56:31 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +oo Herkamire crc 23:10:24 --- quit: sproingie (Remote closed the connection) 23:13:08 --- join: asymptote (~dmesg@68.48.8.92) joined #forth 23:24:16 --- quit: Frek ("This computer has gone to sleep") 23:28:50 --- join: Frek (~anvil@h208n2fls31o815.telia.com) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.06.03