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07:02:05 <Robert_> Hi.
07:02:08 <I440r> hi
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07:18:15 <I440r> brb
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08:16:11 <virl> what was forth biggest problem in the past that it's design philosophy didn't become a mainstream place?
08:16:51 <saon> it's hard for mainstreamers to wrap their heads around forth
08:17:17 <saon> there's no cut and dry way to write forth programs, and stack juggling to optimize code is beyond most imperative or OO coders
08:17:21 <Robert_> And after around 1980, computers got powerful enough to run better languages ;)
08:17:32 <saon> heh
08:18:18 <saon> that and writing large programs in forth using teams of programmers is very difficult
08:18:48 <virl> I see
08:18:54 <saon> as compared to doing large OO projects
08:20:22 <saon> and in embedded work mostly people that aren't noobs use assembler directly
08:20:49 <saon> so, the only real place where forth shines is on stack-based machines, which there are few of in the real world
08:22:05 <Robert_> And on 8-bit micros where the alternative is BASIC. :)
08:22:13 <saon> though it does save tremendously on overhead compared to other languages
08:23:29 <saon> so sadly the forth community is small and nobody in the community really agrees what forth should be, so, by and large, people create their own forths that are incompatible
08:23:45 <saon> but the only standard that exists (ANS) sucks horribly imo
08:24:55 <saon> whereas languages like C, C++, and Java have strict definitions as to what they are and how they act
08:24:57 <virl> it's imho too big
08:25:05 <saon> agreed
08:25:37 <saon> i'd like to build off of retroforth and add floating point operations or fp emulation
08:25:41 <saon> i'd be happy with that much
08:26:10 <saon> that's all i really need in a forth atm
08:26:17 <virl> forth strength is that it can be used to design a language for a special purpose and not an interpreter language for everything.
08:26:27 <saon> yes yes
08:27:03 <saon> most people in conventional programming can't really get their heads around the concept of meta-programming
08:27:48 <saon> they want to identify the problem, then take a good solution and modify it to fit the confines of the language, whereas in forth, you write a language around the right solution, and you're done.
08:29:36 <Robert_> Well, sometimes that gets totally out of hands.. it's like trying to prove advanced theorems from Peano's axioms - possible but a lot of work.
08:30:02 * Robert_ will change that... soon... ;)
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08:30:56 <virl> hmm isn't Robert the lisp guy here?
08:31:06 <saon> my portable speakers are done! yay
08:31:19 <saon> robert's the crazy guy
08:31:24 <saon> dunno if he codes lisp
08:35:52 <virl> sometimes it looks like that forths approach is really modern and useabler than that what some highlevel coders design.
08:39:25 <Robert_> No, I'm not a lisper.
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08:45:00 <saon> virl, i think that languages are moving more towards becoming idiot-proof. you have a problem. you make this stuff, you put it together with that stuff, you're done.
08:45:35 <saon> forth is one of the last havens where there's a real place for computer professionals
08:45:51 <Robert> Sure you're not confusing idiot-proof with convenient?
08:46:08 <saon> i was thinking of java, so, no =p
08:46:13 <Robert> Java is idiot-proof. Ruby is convenient... Forth is neither.
08:46:16 <Robert> Ah. :)
08:46:18 <saon> hehe
08:49:22 <saon> robert, i haven't really read much ruby code, have any particularly nice code on hand for my perusal?
08:49:33 <virl> hey, don't say that ':' isn't convenient.
08:50:07 <Robert> virl: Well... assembly language also has that ;)
08:50:13 <saon> forth has some nice sexy stuff like multiple entry points and custom looping structures
08:50:16 <Robert> saon: Hm, not sure.
08:50:27 <saon> but those are 'naughty' to use
08:50:58 <saon> i've been considering listening to Lemmih and using a functional language for a bit
08:51:01 <saon> just to try it out
08:51:16 <saon> i'm more comfy with ML than with Haskell
08:53:31 <saon> but i do have an actual real-live book on haskell
08:55:57 <virl> I don't like functional languages because for me the idea of writing an application as equations is horrible for me. I'm more the stack machine/imperative/OOP(not Java!) guy
08:56:25 <saon> ml is nice in that it has functional and imperative stuff in it
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09:31:28 * Robert now has about 9 GB of solar system pictures on two DVDs. :)
09:32:44 <saon> lol
09:34:06 <Robert> If anyone finds a good use for that, let me know.
09:34:17 * Robert should set up a TO DO  list.
09:34:32 <saon> frisbees? =p
09:34:59 <Robert> Hahaha
09:35:05 <Robert> http://robos.org/wiki.pl?Where_Is_Robert
09:35:13 <Robert> Look what I found on my own wiki now
09:35:56 <saon> heheh
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10:39:53 <OrngeTide> Robert, what's up with the stalker?
10:44:30 <Robert> Hm?
10:46:46 <OrngeTide> Robert, on your wiki.
10:47:35 <Robert> Oh... well, I guess he wondered where I went. After all, I wasn't on IRC for several days.
10:47:50 <OrngeTide> i like your ideal language page. it gave me some good ideas 
10:48:15 <Robert> Oh, it's still there? 
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10:51:29 <OrngeTide> Robert, with the little <3's I was thinking it was a woman:)
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10:53:29 <OrngeTide> yah
10:54:45 <Robert> Nah, he's not.
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11:06:03 <saon|remote> greetings all
11:06:07 <Robert> Hi.
11:06:25 <saon|remote> i'm locked out of my house
11:06:28 <saon|remote> bleh
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11:07:25 <Robert> Heh
11:07:52 <saon|remote> so i'm on 56k at my dad's
11:07:55 <saon|remote> blah
11:09:04 <saon|remote> and i'm stuck on a windows box
11:09:10 <saon|remote> so, what's everyone up to?
11:09:36 <Robert> Planning evil devices.
11:10:27 <Robert> Ah, 48 GB of traffic in the last 72 hours. :)
11:10:41 <Robert> That's 666 MB per hour.
11:10:57 <saon|remote> lol
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11:36:28 <Robert> Hi.
11:37:24 <saon|remote> greetings crc
11:54:47 <alexander_> re..
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12:39:50 <warpzero> i heart the c2 wiki
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13:23:26 <arke> teh hies
13:23:38 <Robert> Teh butterhies.
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14:43:15 <crc> hi all
14:54:18 <saon> hey crc
15:39:03 <alexander_> hey
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20:47:02 <I440r_> oh yea - texas just passed a law making it legal to carry a gun in your car even if you have no permit. the gov has to sign it now
20:47:08 <I440r_> freekin awesome!
20:48:28 <arke> omg
20:48:29 <arke> lol
20:48:40 <saon> that's nothing, in florida you can actually now fire a gun at people in cases of road rage and not be prosecuted
20:48:58 <I440r_> saon bullshit
20:49:09 <saon> from what i've heard and read at least
20:49:19 * saon lives in florida
20:49:36 <I440r_> your reading the wrong stuff. try www.packing.org for all gun laws for all states
20:49:56 <saon> how recent is packing.org?
20:50:07 <I440r_> you mean how up to date?
20:50:13 <saon> yes
20:50:20 <I440r_> if a law is passed you can guarantee it shows up there THAT DAY
20:50:27 <saon> coolness
20:50:47 <I440r_> yea. its a very active site
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21:08:08 <I440r__> grrr
21:11:41 <alexander_> hey
21:12:52 <alexander_> I440r__: what editor do you use when you're writing Forth in IsForth?  
21:13:02 <alexander_> do you have a native editor that you edit blocks with?
21:15:13 <arke> I think he uses pico
21:15:14 <arke> :)
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21:18:06 <I440r__> joe
21:18:21 <I440r__> thers a block editor thats not finished yet
21:18:30 <I440r__> i dont use blocks for sources however
21:18:56 <I440r__> i dont like unix editors, not ONE of them is worth a damn. joe just happens to be less fucked up than others
21:19:23 <I440r__> but i dread having to write one of my own
21:22:06 <arke> hehe
21:22:59 <arke> I find it funny how you're afraid to code some things
21:23:14 <arke> yet are a progessional programmer
21:23:15 <arke> :)
21:24:59 <I440r__> hush!
21:25:25 <arke> :)
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21:28:27 <OrngeTide> I440r__, joe is simple:)
21:28:38 <OrngeTide> oh. he disconnected
21:29:19 <I440r__> no im here
21:29:25 <I440r__> that was a ghost
21:29:31 <I440r__> yea joe is ok
21:29:56 <I440r__> but i wish there was a "quit and save all" button
21:30:11 <I440r__> you have to do ^kx ^kx ^kx ^kx for every file you have loaded
21:30:16 <arke> lol
21:30:30 <arke> you are teh funny
21:31:49 <OrngeTide> or do you just like some girl in it?
21:31:55 <OrngeTide> oops wrong channel.
21:32:05 <I440r__> lol
21:32:37 <OrngeTide> i fat fingered my keyboard and it switched windows :P
21:32:59 <I440r__> typing in the cracks
21:33:11 <OrngeTide> yup
21:33:18 <OrngeTide> I440r__, how've you been btw?
21:34:00 <I440r__> tired. lol
21:34:11 <I440r__> got home from work and fell assleep
21:34:18 <I440r__> oh im working on isforth again tho
21:34:24 <I440r__> a lil
21:34:54 <I440r__> i want to do a release very soon. want to release all 3 versions together
21:35:43 <OrngeTide> yea. i took a nap right when i got home too
21:36:05 <I440r__> shouldnt do that cuz it messes me up lol
21:36:20 <I440r__> its 11:45 now and i probably wont sleep till 1 am or maybe 2
21:36:53 <OrngeTide> yea.
21:37:08 <OrngeTide> i only slept for about 1.5 hours. so i'm okay at least.
21:37:22 <I440r__> heh
21:38:51 <OrngeTide> i've been thinking of writing two forths. a high level forth and a low-level forth. one for implementing low-level things. and one that is forth-like (or maybe it's just scheme with a stack) for constructing fancier things. (like a forth that supports functional programming)
21:39:43 <OrngeTide> one of my problems is you need runtime type checking to do a proper high level language (static/compile time has ugly limitations you have to hack around, just like C). but I'm totally not going to write some routines to do PCI i/os in something like that. so I need both.
21:40:39 <OrngeTide> woo. my gf is making my borscht today
21:41:13 <I440r__> dammit i want a gf :P
21:41:23 <OrngeTide> although a ppc port of isforth sort of covers the low-level. 
21:41:42 <I440r__> tathi did that :)P
21:41:55 <warpzero> sup forthers
21:42:10 <warpzero> pioneers of the stack based wilderness
21:43:25 <OrngeTide> i sorta want to do something for ARM thumb. but I dunno. prototyping a system on powerpc or x86 is less work
21:44:42 <OrngeTide> i'm thinking maybe a front-end loader that presents a virtualized powerpc to my binary would be good. then I can sort of simulate a boot loader environment. (ppc is easy to virtualize. look at Mac-On-Linux project)
21:46:27 <OrngeTide> you guys probably think a forth-like with strong dynamic types and garbage collection is perverse :P
21:47:05 <I440r__> hehe
21:58:05 <alexander_> OrngeTide: I'm working on something for ARM thumb right now
22:05:07 <OrngeTide> alexander_, neat. which board are you targeting? I'm thinking of doing LPC2106 and gameboy advance
22:05:49 <OrngeTide> the problem with gba is it doesn't have much 32-bit memory so you are stuck doing thumb code for speed reasons
22:06:12 <alexander_> OrngeTide: custom hardware based on Atmel's new ARM microcontroller.
22:06:46 <OrngeTide> oh. is it like an AT91?
22:06:47 <alexander_> OrngeTide: Re: the gameboy, there's a lot of space available relatively.. you have plenty of room in the WRAM
22:06:54 <alexander_> yah, it's their new A3 AT91-series chip.
22:06:59 <alexander_> it's not in production yet, but it's sampling.
22:07:08 <OrngeTide> alexander_, yea. you get about 288k of ram total to work with. plus all that rom/flash space
22:07:48 <alexander_> sure, but that's a ton for a Forth
22:08:11 <OrngeTide> i consider it an infinite amount:)
22:08:33 <alexander_> okay, maybe I misunderstood what you said about it being a problem
22:08:37 <OrngeTide> but some of these chips have about 4k. which is kinda small if you want to allow room to grow a dictionary with an interactive forth.
22:08:53 <OrngeTide> alexander_, well if it was 32-bit ram i could run non-thumb code effeciently. :)
22:09:09 <alexander_> oh, I see what you're saying
22:09:11 <OrngeTide> a lot of the embedded arms actually have 32-bit ram. 
22:09:17 <OrngeTide> even if it's just a tiny amount of it
22:09:22 <alexander_> yah
22:09:48 <alexander_> how wide is the WRAM on the GBA?
22:09:52 <alexander_> 16 bits?
22:10:08 <OrngeTide> 256k is 16-bit, rom is 16-bit and there is a 32k chunk of 32-bit
22:10:14 <OrngeTide> so that's not too bad. 
22:10:22 <alexander_> yah
22:10:28 <alexander_> okay, that sounds like what I remember.
22:10:32 <OrngeTide> 256k for a nice heap and dictionary. and 32k for code. :)
22:10:46 <alexander_> yah,. that's plenty to do all of your code words.
22:10:53 <OrngeTide> i was thinking of putting a tv-out and keyboard on it and it would be a home computer:)
22:11:28 <OrngeTide> i have a cute 8-bit ethernet board that if I get ambitious and build a cart I could use. (although an Xport would be better, then I could have it do dma for the ethernet)
22:11:50 <alexander_> yah
22:12:04 <OrngeTide> although the ethernet could plug straight into a LPC or AT91. and those have a much higher clock than the GBA's arm7tdmi
22:12:25 <alexander_> the other option is you can get the serial port running up to like 2 megabit with the GBA
22:12:31 <OrngeTide> and those chips can talk SPI so you can plug MMC/SD in it easily for gobs of secondary storage for only a few bucks
22:12:46 <OrngeTide> yea. i want the serial port for a keyboard though.
22:13:07 <OrngeTide> i don't have a real project. i just thought it would be amusing to have a unique personal computer.
22:13:08 <alexander_> sure, but you could put an expansion port, and hook the keyboard to that
22:13:16 <OrngeTide> oh. that's true
22:14:20 <OrngeTide> I have a gumstix (xscale/PXA255 @ 400mhz). that's a bit beefier. but i needs some work to revive it (i sorta broke it)
22:14:26 <alexander_> ah
22:14:33 <alexander_> you could do a multi processor system
22:15:05 <OrngeTide> which is sort of why I have a bias for a 32-bit arm forth rather than thumb. but forth would almost be a waste on a gumstix. (64Mb ram, 4Mb flash)
22:15:17 <alexander_> you could do a nutty forth system though
22:15:48 <OrngeTide> that fast arm board would be blazing fast at doing colorforth. 
22:16:03 <I440r__> colorforth is gobbldegook
22:16:08 <I440r__> lol
22:16:14 <OrngeTide> hard to do interactive. i think it's cheating to buy a serial terminal. 
22:16:23 <arke> colorforth is awesome
22:16:24 <OrngeTide> I440r__, hence the fast processor:)
22:16:39 <alexander_> OrngeTide: the other great option is the old ARM Zaurus.. with the built in keyboard.
22:16:44 <alexander_> and nice LCD
22:17:21 <OrngeTide> alexander_, well I have a sony clie. that's a 180mhz arm. but i had a heck of a time finding any useful docs on it. samsung wants NDAs for their chipset
22:17:58 <OrngeTide> i'm not really interested in speed though. i'm mainly want something that is well packaged and can do 32-bits.
22:18:00 <alexander_> OrngeTide: ah, the Zaurus is a straight StrongARM.. I've written code for it.
22:18:10 <alexander_> you stick it on a CF, name it bzImage, and it'll run it.
22:18:13 <OrngeTide> alexander_, yea. they are pricy too. the sony clie was only $120 :)
22:18:23 <OrngeTide> alexander_, oh. that's slick :)
22:18:42 <OrngeTide> gumstix lets me load any file off a FAT formated MMC and jump into it:)
22:19:04 <OrngeTide> it just doesn't have a display unless I want to solder some tiny SMT pins on a 60pin header
22:19:11 <alexander_> yah
22:19:25 <alexander_> but I think you can get an older zaurus for like 50 bucks.
22:19:31 <OrngeTide> hrm. that's an idea
22:20:05 <OrngeTide> thanks for the idea.
22:20:10 <OrngeTide> i've gotta get dinner though. ttyl.
22:20:42 <alexander_> np, late.
23:19:17 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:44:48 --- quit: I440r__ ()
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.05.31