00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.05.25 00:16:59 --- quit: onetom (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 00:16:59 --- quit: Snoopy42 (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 00:16:59 --- quit: saon|smgl (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 00:16:59 --- quit: OrngeTide (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 00:16:59 --- quit: Robert (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 00:17:00 --- quit: cmeme (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 00:17:00 --- quit: arke (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 00:17:00 --- quit: madgarden (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 00:17:01 --- quit: skylan (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 00:17:22 --- join: arke (f2@bespin.org) joined #forth 00:17:22 --- join: saon|smgl (~saon@c-66-177-224-130.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 00:17:22 --- join: madgarden (~madgarden@Toronto-HSE-ppp3708121.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 00:17:22 --- join: onetom (~tom@ns.dunasoft.com) joined #forth 00:17:22 --- join: Robert (~snofs@c-f778e055.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 00:17:22 --- join: Snoopy42 (snoopy_161@dsl-084-058-013-120.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 00:17:22 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.2) joined #forth 00:17:22 --- join: skylan (~sjh@dialup-216-211-57-166.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 00:24:40 --- join: OrngeTide (~orange@rm-f.net) joined #forth 01:00:45 --- join: snoopy_1711 (snoopy_161@dsl-084-058-019-088.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 01:09:15 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 01:09:16 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 07:13:42 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 07:17:20 --- join: sproingie (~chatzilla@64-121-15-14.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 07:17:29 Hi. 07:42:07 --- join: ianp (~ian@inpuj.com) joined #forth 07:42:16 Hi. 08:00:57 --- join: virl (anonymous@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 08:11:26 --- quit: sproingie (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:17:31 --- quit: vitaminmoo ("Leaving") 08:17:38 --- join: vitaminmoo (~vitaminmo@dsl-95-113.peak.org) joined #forth 08:29:47 --- join: I440r (~foo@209-234-161-250.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 08:32:50 Hi. 08:33:13 hi 08:56:49 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@c-24-218-95-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 08:56:49 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Herkamire 09:04:18 hey Herkamire, I440r 09:16:06 hi saon 09:19:18 hi saon! 09:22:44 fixed a bug last nite :) 09:22:53 isforth works again lol 09:24:13 i need to benchmark it agains the old code now 09:24:25 tathi says its about 30% faster (the memory manager) 09:24:30 Cool. 09:24:32 What did you change? 09:25:03 the linked list code. then i had to change the memory manager 09:25:12 its better code now 09:28:10 i shud release 1.16b soon 09:28:26 but i want to release the ppc, x86 and fbsd versions together 09:30:40 Do you still have code and data together? 09:30:59 yes 09:31:03 im not changing that 09:31:14 separating them will make the code more difficult to follow 09:31:19 and more complex 09:31:27 And many times faster ;) 09:31:37 speed wasnt my goal 09:31:47 and besides 20 megs per second is fast enough :P 09:32:01 What CPU? 09:32:45 well thats on old laptop which was a 2 ghz 09:32:57 on a 550 mhz amd k6-3 i did 800k per second 09:33:10 so on that 2 ghz i was probably well over 2 megs per second 09:33:16 when i have 2 megs of source ill tell u hhehb 09:33:45 u never benchmarked ./extend on your machine ? 09:33:47 time ./extend 09:39:54 I did... and then I forgot about it. 09:40:01 lol 10:06:23 I440r, hio 10:06:30 hi! 10:06:33 orange 10:06:42 i wanna make two ebuilds for isforth 10:06:48 what's this about a ppc isforth? 10:06:48 one for the kernel and one for the extnsions 10:06:56 tathi ported isforth to ppc 10:07:06 freaky :) 10:07:43 it's pretty easy to get gentoo to include ebuilds. you just have to follow the instructions and post on bugzilla 10:08:00 heh 10:08:08 i dont have a bugzilla account 10:08:20 you don't need one. at least you didn't use to. 10:08:41 ill create teh ebuilds and then try get them officially accepted :) 10:08:43 or maybe you did. i just remember it being very easy. 10:08:56 :) 10:09:17 * OrngeTide had a mkproto ebuild in gentoo for a while. but his box went down and they took it out because they couldn't reliably get it. 10:10:15 lol 10:10:31 * OrngeTide wonders if it's a pain in the ass to do system calls on Darwin, seeing as it's Mach. might make a very evil isforth port. 10:10:49 lol 10:10:58 }:) 10:11:04 evil grin (tm) 10:11:19 so didn't tathi have to rewrite like almost all of isforth to port it? 10:11:38 nope 10:11:39 i seem to recall all the important bits were put together in nasm. 10:11:43 well. the kernel :) 10:12:06 some of the extensions had to change but we tried to make the change on both so that it would work the same 10:12:15 but some of the syscalls take different parameters 10:12:18 which is fucked up 10:12:27 i should try isforth again. although screen's stupidity probably still breaks it. 10:12:31 the same syscall in the same operating system on different platforms is different 10:12:41 it does but ill try fix that 10:12:47 ill try trace WHY it happens 10:13:48 i suspect it's because screen likes to use a bogus size for it's termcap patches. it breaks a few other programs. 10:14:14 :se noai 10:14:14 aecho $TERMCAP | wc -c:se ai 10:14:18 oops. wrong button. 10:14:32 its going to be because some format strings are blank in their terminfo file 10:14:36 ones isforth requires 10:14:40 ones that SHOULD BE THERE 10:14:43 1106 bytes though. which exceeds the "standard" limitation of 1023. 10:15:01 oh. you look at the terminfo not the termcap environment variable? 10:15:23 i dont use termcap. i find out what term your running from $TERM 10:15:28 and then load the terminfo file for that term 10:15:51 and interpret all the format strings so i output the right escape sequences for that terminal type 10:17:51 I440r, ah. screen has this ability to hack the terminal emulation at run-time by passing different info through the TERMCAP variable. 10:18:40 thats STUPID 10:18:48 termcap is deprecated 10:19:00 mainly because screen used to not do much emulation. and you'd just load up termcap/terminfo for whatever you connected to screen with and hack it up a bit if necessary. also people had to fix faulty terminfo/termcap entries on systems because screen stresses terminals. 10:19:15 I440r, well there is no terminfo equivalent of $TERMCAP 10:19:26 no there doesnt need to be 10:19:46 i think screen is done all wrong from the ground up 10:20:22 actually you can pass TERMCAP environment variable through telnet. which is theoretically nice if you telnet to a system that doesn't have terminfo/termcap entries for your TERM 10:20:45 I440r, I won't defend screens design. but I haven't found something that solves the same problems. 10:21:03 ive never seen any need for screen 10:21:11 just use vnc :) 10:21:16 vnc is blurry 10:21:26 not for me 10:21:46 heh 10:22:02 well I run tightvnc to get extra speed :) 10:22:11 actually tho why not just ceate a new terminal type that does what screen does 10:22:17 not make a wrapper for a terminal 10:22:18 jpeg compressed vnc.. ugh. looks terrible but it helps 10:22:33 no dont use jpeg 10:22:47 I440r, if I were to rewrite screen I'd have it emulate xterm and just claim it was an xterm 10:22:59 ! 10:23:11 and give it teh ability to switch "Screens" 10:23:15 thers a project for you 10:23:21 give xterm the ability to switch 10:23:24 the hextile one is fine on a LAN. but using my colo'd box vnc kinda bites. 10:23:33 also I like ^A to quickly flip between applications. 10:23:33 :) 10:23:43 I440r, well gnome terminal or whatever does that already. 10:23:54 gnome sux 10:23:59 but I mean use xterm's well defined VT codes rather than doing what screen did, invent their own. 10:24:20 I440r, i don't run gnome terminal because I have a heavily hacked .Xresources for xterm that I refuse to part with. 10:24:33 i use eterm :) 10:26:23 I just with X11 protocol had the ability to attach/detach. there was a hack floating around to do it, but it's difficult to setup and hasn't been maintained in many years. 10:26:31 s/with/wish 10:27:00 x11 is fast enough with most apps to use remotely. xterms are certainly using less bandwidth than vnc 10:27:27 ya 10:27:48 so stop using screen 10:27:51 its b0rked anyway 10:28:08 although if x11 had display server side widgets it would be smooth a silk. but then you're forced doing apps as MVC (model viewer controller). but that's not so terrible, I guess. 10:28:14 I440r, i can't stop. 10:28:25 like I said. there isn't a suitable replacement. 10:28:28 you can 10:28:37 just have more than one xterm open 10:28:41 you dont need everything in one term 10:28:45 i'm given the choice between crap and nothing. 10:29:03 I need the ability to disconnect and reconnect to a session. 10:29:24 and to do so over ssh. 10:29:42 vnc 10:30:12 tried it. for starters there is no such thing as rootless vnc. 10:30:36 the other problem is that it's tricky to pass ctrl-tab to vnc to switch windows inside of vnc rather than switch the windows on the desktop. 10:30:57 that works 10:30:59 i got alt-tab to work sometimes though. 10:31:32 vnc also wastes a lot more bandwidth. 10:31:39 also xterm needs cut and paste as good as screens. 10:32:02 since you can select columns and join lines in screen's cut and paste... it's slick. 10:32:30 so what's your problem with screen other than it's poor implementation? do you have an problem with the idea of multiplexing a terminal? 10:33:06 i have no prolems NOT doing so 10:33:26 if i need more than one application i load more ssh sessions 10:33:34 yea. you can't attach/detach though 10:33:38 if i need something to stay when i disconnect i use vnc 10:33:47 and i dont really need that 10:33:58 eh. I'm pretty disappointed with vnc. 10:34:04 what do you use that you need to attach/detatch from 10:34:16 it's protocol is pretty stupid since it's stateful and has no error reporting. 10:34:33 you could fix that :) 10:35:21 I440r, well irc and aim are the main thing. I also detach from minicom and move it around at work. and I tend to just leave vi sessions open all the time so I can hop on the VPN and continue where I left off. 10:35:31 I440r, yea. I could write something just like vnc but totally incompatible. 10:35:53 that wouldnt matter if it was better 10:36:16 compatability would be inhibative anyway 10:36:30 i think adding some sort of session tracking cookies to X11 would be better. 10:36:34 call it vng :) 10:36:38 hehe 10:36:38 vnc next generation heh 10:37:57 I tried to write a vnc-based game. but clients could connect to my system and force me to use a bitdepth I didn't want to support (because it was very wasteful in bandwidth). the only response I could come up with to requests for modes I didn't want to support was to disconnect. :( 10:38:24 :) 10:39:09 but i'll keep using screen. since I have too many other things on my plate to write something better. 10:39:24 :/ 10:40:12 it generally saves me more time than it costs. it's only the rare program that doesn't work in it right. and screen hardly ever locks up anymore. 10:41:39 i bet it would be easy to write a terminal multiplexor in isforth. but I'm thinking that you wouldn't see the point of such a program. 10:42:26 when I go on vacation I'll take isforth with me and play with it. when i'm on vacation i don't connect to remote sites and therefor don't need screen. 10:44:10 * Robert is working with Turbo C 2.0 on the DOS box. 10:45:44 trator! 10:45:50 :) 10:45:58 robert i mean 10:45:59 heh 10:48:03 when do u go on vacation ? 10:50:17 --- join: qFox (~C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 10:52:13 qFox: Hi 10:54:06 hi 10:54:13 hm 10:54:18 you were talking about turing machines 10:54:35 wanna see an assignment i had to do for java that got a little out of hand? 10:54:44 we had to code langton ants 10:54:59 you have a grid of cells, either black or white 10:55:16 when the ant is on a white cell, it will turn left and go one forward 10:55:24 if its on a black cell it'll turn right and go one forward 10:55:32 when an ant leaves a cell, he inverts the color 10:55:37 I440r, btw I remember the name of the program for proxying x11. xmove .. there is also guievict. http://rm-f.net/users/orange/x11/ lists a bunch of stuf 10:55:40 plain n simple rules 10:55:54 turing machines, if you will 10:55:57 lbx+xmove might be a reasonable alternative to vnc or screen. 10:55:59 * OrngeTide hrms. 10:56:27 qFox: That's the first 6502 program I ever wrote :) 10:56:47 Robert> http://phil.uu.nl/~zee/langton2.jar 10:57:04 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:57:08 6502? what year is this? 10:57:09 it includes a threading way, because it was part of the advanced assignment, but its default off 10:57:22 i440r was reset by a peer! 10:57:34 it also includes mating, when two ants of different sex meet they create a kid. and when two of the same sex meet, they just die 10:57:36 :) 10:58:06 oh and a bit of population control, whenever the population hits >100 they all get sick, when they get sick twice they die. works pretty good 10:58:32 the assignment was to make it just plain ascii and the simple stuff btw :p i just got all kind of idea's and stuff 11:00:48 OrngeTide: 1982, right? 11:01:05 Robert> oh its a selfexecting jar, but i kinda asumed you got that 11:01:09 executing.. 11:01:22 qFox: How do I run it? :) 11:02:38 --- join: I440r (~foo@209-234-161-250.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 11:03:33 Robert, just making sure. 11:04:33 double clicking should work for you 11:04:33 otherwise just go java -jar langton2.jar 11:04:33 ohyeah, loading is slow. java isnt fond of loading 10.000 jlabels... ;) 11:04:33 i might consider my next project to be a fullscreen thing 11:04:33 to experiment with that aspect of java 11:04:43 on the other side, i still intend to create that forth IDE. you remember the one i talked about a while back robert? 11:07:10 .....double clicking? 11:08:37 well... works on mac, works on windows when ... i dunno what it is i installed that caused it actually 11:08:44 just enter it in console 11:08:49 java -jar langton2.jar 11:08:49 ;) 11:08:52 I did. 11:08:55 It's running. 11:09:00 nice eh? :) 11:09:04 it is actually damn fast 11:09:05 had a lot of luck doing fullscreen java apps. 11:09:07 click the grid button 11:09:17 it (should) will get rid of the grid 11:09:18 even on X11. i was impressed it was so easy to do. 11:09:21 Damn fast? 11:09:24 Heh. 11:09:30 it can execute 1000000 cycles in about 2 seconds on my system 11:09:38 kinda amazed myself there :p 11:09:51 When drawing? 11:09:59 one cycle is one complete turn of all ants btw 11:10:02 :p 11:10:06 no, when no drawing 11:10:15 in the toprght corner is a togglebutton grid 11:10:16 Cheater. 11:10:29 when you press it the grid disappears and isnt used (internally) 11:10:44 well, that works on mac/windows anyways. probably works on linux too 11:12:27 i actually did think about creating a buffered image instead of 10000 labels, but it was way more work then it was worth to me. i mean, its just a school assignment you know 11:12:38 the buf img would likely be much faster 11:14:08 The C64 is so much easier, just work with the screen memroy ;) 11:14:15 yeah well... 11:14:54 you just had to, it was virtually all the mem you had :p 11:16:43 Pffft. 11:17:15 Actually, many modern PCs have a higher video mem/main RAM ratio. 11:17:40 (well, the video was mapped in the main ram, but still) 11:40:09 --- quit: vitaminmoo ("Leaving") 11:42:21 doesn't that suggest that there might be a better way to address the problems of video? 11:43:05 its cheaper to not put ram on a video card 11:43:14 but they still sell it to you for the same price 11:44:40 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp01375108pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:37:41 --- quit: saon (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:37:53 --- quit: saon|smgl (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:57:32 --- quit: tathi ("brb") 12:58:04 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp01375108pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 13:51:54 --- quit: I440r () 13:55:53 --- join: I440r (~mark4@209-234-161-250.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 14:09:50 --- quit: nanstm ("Client exited") 14:10:21 --- join: Raystm2 (~vircuser@adsl-69-149-32-57.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 14:41:22 --- nick: Raystm2 -> tiff 15:02:35 --- join: Alex|LT_ (~Alex@196-220.suscom-maine.net) joined #forth 15:03:19 --- quit: Alex|LT_ (Client Quit) 15:05:23 --- join: KB1FYR|LT (~Alex@196-220.suscom-maine.net) joined #forth 15:14:29 --- quit: Frek ("Client exiting") 15:14:37 --- join: Frek (~anvil@h254n2fls31o815.telia.com) joined #forth 15:39:14 --- join: [Forth] (~Forth@209-234-161-250.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 15:39:51 --- nick: tiff -> nanstm 15:42:43 --- quit: [Forth] ("abort" Reality Strikes Again"") 15:53:17 anybody know of a good program to make graphs with in windows? 16:22:37 arke, maple? or if you're cheap. cygwin+gnuplot 16:22:49 what sort of graphs? actual graphs or diagrams? 16:23:09 a one-var graph 16:26:23 arke: maybe http://www.quisoft.com/ will work? 16:26:28 (web based) 16:28:06 if dwight comes in here tell him ill be back in 15 16:28:34 who's dwight? 16:29:41 --- quit: qFox ("this quit is sponsored by somebody!") 16:58:31 --- quit: I440r ("bbl") 17:45:08 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 18:07:04 --- part: warpzero left #forth 18:21:44 --- join: Sonarman (~cleetus@adsl-63-196-0-196.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 19:26:09 --- part: KB1FYR|LT left #forth 19:29:31 --- join: KB1FYR|LT (~Alex@196-220.suscom-maine.net) joined #forth 19:41:15 --- quit: Sonarman (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:47:26 --- part: KB1FYR|LT left #forth 19:58:31 --- join: KB1FYR|LT (~Alex@196-220.suscom-maine.net) joined #forth 20:08:42 --- join: saon (1000@c-66-177-224-130.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:13:21 --- join: saon|smgl (~saon@c-66-177-224-130.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:28:57 --- quit: KB1FYR|LT (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:38:37 --- join: vitaminmoo (~vitaminmo@dsl-95-113.peak.org) joined #forth 20:38:43 --- quit: vitaminmoo (Remote closed the connection) 20:38:56 --- join: vitaminmoo (~vitaminmo@dsl-95-113.peak.org) joined #forth 20:39:15 --- quit: vitaminmoo (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:39:28 --- join: vitaminmoo (~vitaminmo@dsl-95-113.peak.org) joined #forth 20:39:45 --- quit: vitaminmoo (Remote closed the connection) 21:15:44 --- join: Sonarman (~cleetus@adsl-67-113-235-179.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 21:55:46 --- join: sproingie (~chatzilla@64-121-15-14.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 22:57:15 --- quit: Sonarman ("leaving") 22:58:18 --- quit: sproingie ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]") 23:39:55 --- quit: Herkamire ("off to bed") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.05.25