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07:17:25 <tathi> I440r: damn, you really sped up the memory allocater.
07:17:43 <tathi> At least for me:  mmtest on 20,000 buffers is down from 9:20 to 6:13
07:17:55 <tathi> and...examples/window.f still works just fine for me.
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08:47:51 <thinfu> so many people, so little chatting
08:48:00 <thinfu> actually theres less people these days it seems
08:48:05 <thinfu> on this chan anyways
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09:20:25 <crc> hi all
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09:40:10 <saon> hello
09:40:21 <saon> how's retroforth coming along?
09:40:36 <crc> 8.0, Beta 1 comes out tomorrow :)
09:41:55 <crc> I'm working on minor cleanups today
09:43:38 <saon> :) :)
09:43:48 <saon> i haven't done any forth coding in a while :(
09:44:00 <crc> heh
09:44:35 <thinfu> saon: got any goals w/ forth?
09:44:35 <crc> I wrote a mostly complete BF interpreter, then turned it to a wiki engine :)
09:44:42 <saon> i have a machine next to my bed now with an rf 7.6.1 floppy in it for late-night coding, but, haven't used it in a while
09:44:53 <thinfu> heh nice
09:44:56 <crc> http://forthworks.com/blog/?p=56  (bf article)
09:45:06 <crc> http://forthworks.com/blog/?p=58  (wiki article)
09:45:07 <saon> thinfu: i like forth and its methodologies, but other than that, no immediate use
09:45:42 <thinfu> saon: do you any coding in other langs ?
09:45:54 <crc> rf8/native has a new boot sector that solves most of the boot problems that were encountered in the past
09:46:19 <docl> one of these days rf will have so many features and be so stable you can't afford not to use it :)
09:46:31 <saon> i learned in euphoria, and have a fair bit of experience with C and I've read a lot of other code and about a lot of other code and have books on a bunch of langs i've played with, but nothing seriously 
09:46:48 <saon> books on C, asm (under dos, 16
09:46:53 <saon> -bit
09:47:20 <saon> c++, java, perl, php, javascript, vbscript, awk, haskell
09:47:33 <saon> so i have a fair bit of exposure
09:48:01 <thinfu> well i was just curious if you were coding regularly :P
09:48:05 <thinfu> not really about your exposure :P
09:48:31 <saon> i should code more, i've fallen out of touch with programming :(
09:49:05 <thinfu> thats ok, programming is a waste of time anyways :P
09:49:11 <thinfu> and computers suck
09:51:05 <docl> ever heard of prototype-based object systems?  we're looking for a good way to do objects in forthmud
09:53:49 <docl> I got into a long discussion the other night with kc5tja about them.  he says they don't work well in forth because it isn't optimized for them
09:58:34 <Herkamire> : --factors dup . >>r / r> ;
09:58:34 <Herkamire> : -factors 2dup <if 2drop ; then 2dup umod 0if --factors -factors ; then 1+ -factors ;
09:58:38 <Herkamire> : factors 2 -factors ;
09:59:15 <thinfu> docl: i think he's just being pessimistic, just code a forth-like language thats optimized for it ontop of forth :P
09:59:43 <thinfu> Herkamire: umod ?
09:59:54 <Herkamire> unsigned mod
09:59:59 <Herkamire> modulus
10:00:16 <thinfu> retro has neither, only mod and /mod hmmm
10:01:11 <Herkamire> I haven't wanted a signed mod yet, so I haven't written one
10:01:14 <thinfu> whats >>r also
10:01:15 <Herkamire> would only take a few secconds
10:01:22 <Herkamire> >>r is equivelent to "dup >r"
10:01:31 <thinfu> ah cool..
10:01:35 <thinfu> do you find you do dup >r a lot?
10:01:47 <Herkamire> not a ton
10:01:50 <docl> thinfu: yeah in a few lines I bet it could be done.  too bad I don't understand some more advanced stuff or it'd probably come to me
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10:02:08 <Herkamire> >>r is nice sometimes
10:02:37 <thinfu> docl: eh, don't worry about the advanced stuff, implement it anyways and then go from there :P
10:02:42 <docl> although seeing some of the things crc does, like the latest wikimarkup, gives me hope
10:05:04 <Herkamire> crc is clever about using the dictionary and heap
10:05:38 <docl> yeah.  someday I'll get that good :)
10:05:45 <thinfu> someday?
10:05:51 <Herkamire> I too wrote a BF interpreter in forth, but didn't think of using the heap to store the ticker tape
10:05:53 <thinfu> you already got a hang of the paradigm
10:05:58 <thinfu> and you know how to use dup and swap
10:06:00 <docl> ok make it today :P
10:06:00 <thinfu> and to make definitions
10:06:04 <thinfu> yes! :D
10:06:31 <Herkamire> although I think it's implementation depedant. eg some of the data would get clobbered if I did that in herkforth
10:06:37 <Herkamire> well, maybe not actually.
10:07:01 <docl> the heap concept doesn't make a lot of sense to me yet.  is this related to the return stack?
10:07:13 <Herkamire> heap is just a big hunk of memory
10:07:27 <Herkamire> it's not dynamically allocated.
10:07:30 <Herkamire> just a big lump
10:07:40 <docl> hunk of staticly allocated memory
10:07:44 <Herkamire> HERE points to the next byte of it that's not being used yet
10:07:55 <Herkamire> when you compile code, it often goes there.
10:08:05 <Herkamire> you can allocate a chunk of it with ALLOT
10:08:20 <docl> ok, so this is where variables go
10:08:30 <docl> : myvar 101 ;
10:08:38 <Herkamire> you can use some of the un-reserved part of it for temporary storage sometimes
10:08:49 <docl> that's equiv to an allot, right?
10:09:03 <Herkamire> some forths store things in different places, some have a seperate memory space for compiled code
10:09:09 <Herkamire> docl: no
10:09:24 <Herkamire> you just made a word myvar that returns 101
10:09:38 <Herkamire> allot reserves memory space on the heap
10:09:39 <docl> is that like a variable?
10:09:55 <Herkamire> allot raises the value that HERE returns
10:10:43 <Herkamire> heap looks like this:   |used|free|
10:10:53 <Herkamire> HERE points to the begining of the free part
10:11:02 <docl> oh ok
10:11:09 <Herkamire> Allot moves the middle devider (between used and free) forward
10:11:11 <docl> like a tape recorder
10:11:18 <Herkamire> thus giving you a bit of memory that you can use forever
10:11:36 <docl> and returning the address
10:11:50 <Herkamire> HERE gives you the address
10:12:04 <Herkamire> ALLOT just moves the devider by the amount you specify, and doesn't return anything
10:12:33 <docl> ok
10:12:36 <Herkamire> often, you want a bit of memory, and you'd like it named
10:12:40 <docl> so you have to use here to find the value
10:12:58 <docl> thus a variable
10:13:06 <crc> allot can also deallocate memory...
10:13:14 <Herkamire> one way to do that is: here 100 allot constant mymem
10:13:44 <Herkamire> oh yeah, you can pass a negative value to ALLOT and it will move HERE backwards
10:13:51 <docl> neat
10:14:08 <Herkamire> HERE get's the value of the free mem, "100 allot" reserves it.
10:14:24 <docl> thus potentially destroying things on top of the heap
10:14:26 <Herkamire> then you make a constant named "mymem" which returns that address
10:14:43 <Herkamire> you don't worry about that
10:14:50 <Herkamire> nothing important is stored in the free part of the heap
10:15:02 <Herkamire> the free part of the heap is there to be allocated
10:15:12 <docl> oh ok
10:15:35 <Herkamire> there's another word that makes it really easy to get named pointers to memory allocated from the heap
10:15:38 <Herkamire> CREATE
10:15:57 <Herkamire> my example above is equivilent to:  create mymem 100 allot
10:16:45 <docl> does the here and constant part automatically
10:16:51 <Herkamire> right
10:16:56 <Herkamire> and it does a little trick for you.
10:17:29 <Herkamire> it compiles a definition for mymem, the trick is that it compiles the def for mymem so that the memory address for the heap that it returns points to _after_ the definition of mymem
10:17:48 <Herkamire> we can't do:   here constant mymem 100 allot
10:18:15 <Herkamire> because after we've gotten the address of the free part (here) we've compiled a definition (which in many forths goes onto the heap)
10:18:40 <Herkamire> thes in many forths, mymem won't point to free memory, but to compiled code
10:19:07 <docl> ok so it takes into account the compiled code
10:19:12 <Herkamire> right
10:19:26 <Herkamire> I probably didn't need to tell you that much about implementation
10:19:34 <Herkamire> but I love that in forth the implementation makes sense
10:19:38 <docl> no it's good :)
10:19:45 <Herkamire> after a while you start to know how things are done and you can take advantage of it
10:19:57 <docl> right, that's what I like to know
10:20:05 <Herkamire> like the dictionary
10:20:20 <Herkamire> it's used to look up the words you type in to make sense of them
10:20:23 <Herkamire> just part of the parser
10:20:26 <Herkamire> but you can use it :)
10:20:32 <Herkamire> like crc's bf interpreter
10:20:50 <Herkamire> bf also needs to look up what to do for different commands
10:21:03 <Herkamire> so crc used the forth parser's dictionary lookup stuff
10:21:33 <docl> so what most langs reserve as system-use-only, rf allows you to use for other uses as long as it doesn't conflict
10:21:39 <Herkamire> he didn't have to write too much code to map the bf commands to forth functions they should call
10:22:19 <Herkamire> docl: right. and not just rf. the forth standards specify many of these mechanisms so that you can use them portably even
10:22:31 <docl> cool :)
10:23:45 <Herkamire> although forthers often do things that only work in their forth :)
10:24:27 <docl> will the bf code work in other forths?
10:24:50 <Herkamire> mine will
10:25:18 <Herkamire> crc's probably needs to be tweaked first
10:25:41 <Herkamire> possibly only one change
10:25:59 <Herkamire> I think ANS forth take different parameters to the dictionary search function.
10:26:42 <Herkamire> and as long as KEY and EMIT in that forth don't change unallocated parts of the heap
10:26:45 <saon> crc, will 8.0 have the ability to install to the hard disk of the local machine you put it in?
10:27:04 <Herkamire> in my forth (herkforth) I often use the unallocated part of the heap when I need a temporary buffer
10:27:21 <crc> saon: once I work out the hard drive bootsector, yes
10:27:39 <saon> yay :)
10:28:07 <docl> hmm you use the free heap without allocating it?  sounds dangerous
10:28:17 <Herkamire> well, I wrote the whole system
10:28:32 <crc> docl: mine would need a handful of tweaks to work on other forths
10:28:43 <Herkamire> I only use the unallocated part for one thing at a time
10:28:54 * saon can't wait to have a sweet 486-powered rf machine
10:29:05 <Herkamire> it's nice because I don't have to worry about deallocating it
10:29:22 <docl> yeah I guess that would be nice
10:29:31 <Herkamire> eg I use it for output buffering
10:29:46 <Herkamire> linux i/o is very slow if you do it one character at a time
10:30:01 <saon> i suppose though i could modify the blocks to include my extensions on the boot floppy
10:30:32 <Herkamire> so for many things I have EMIT (output one character) write to the heap, and when I'm done printing stuff, flush the whole thing to the screen/file
10:34:48 <Herkamire> linux would take a wlite to call the write() syscall 100,000 times
10:35:39 <Herkamire> (if I wasn't buffering the output, this would happen when I write all the sources, data and dictionary out to files)
10:35:44 <docl> yikes
10:36:01 <docl> could you set aside a space for buffering?
10:36:18 <Herkamire> but, with buffering, it's less that 200 writes, and happens as near to instantly as I can detect
10:36:24 <Herkamire> I could
10:36:33 <Herkamire> but I have no reason to
10:36:45 <Herkamire> how much should I allocate?
10:36:53 <Herkamire> with a buffer, I'd worry about overflowing it
10:37:11 <Herkamire> using the heap, the only way it will overflow is if I actually don't have enough memory to do whatever I'm trying to do
10:38:25 <Herkamire> the dictionary file I output is 31KB
10:39:12 <Herkamire> it's just a host of issues that I can completely ignore, at least for now
10:39:16 <Herkamire> I'm keeping it simple
10:39:27 <docl> yeah, it sounds like the best way
10:40:10 <docl> it's just temporary, and you know when it's going to happen etc.
10:40:23 <Herkamire> right
10:40:39 <Herkamire> I only am using while the editor is displaying, or while the source export stuff is running or whatever
10:41:14 <Herkamire> I do have to be a little careful of it I suppose
10:41:24 <Herkamire> like I shouldn't allocate memory and use it while I'm buffering
10:41:33 <Herkamire> but I'm perfectly happy with that
10:41:36 <Herkamire> I don't do that anyway
10:42:23 <Herkamire> I only buffer for editor display and source export
10:42:27 <Herkamire> not when you call . or something
10:42:34 <Herkamire> directly I mean
10:42:50 <Herkamire> when you tell the editor to run something it doesn't buffer it
10:43:02 <Herkamire> you should try my forth btw. you have linux?
10:44:07 <docl> yeah I'm on linux
10:44:22 <Herkamire> cool
10:44:25 <Herkamire> take it for a spin: http://herkamire.com/jason/herkforth
10:44:32 <Herkamire> there's nice tutorials, lots of docs
10:44:55 <docl> ok, I'll check it out :)
10:44:59 <Herkamire> see what it's like to have the editor and forth at your fingertips at once
10:46:00 <crc> docl: herkforth is what convinced me to add a block editor with interactive forth to retroforth :)
10:46:19 <docl> cool :)
10:46:51 <Herkamire> docl: let me know if you have any questions, or trouble getting it to run
10:47:16 <docl> I just ran "apply" and it patched a bunch of files
10:47:43 <docl> hmm make gave me an error
10:47:45 <crc> ?
10:47:56 <crc> with rf8?
10:47:58 <docl> bunch of "no such instruction" messages
10:48:01 <docl> no herkforth
10:48:05 <crc> ok
10:48:52 <docl> guess I'll have to read the docs a bit
10:49:45 <docl> hmm I must have the wrong assembler
10:51:49 <Herkamire> docl: download the binary
10:51:58 <Herkamire> oh, yeah, you'll need qemu too
10:52:05 <Herkamire> sorry, should have said
10:53:29 <docl> ok I'll try that
10:54:13 <docl> yeah I'm on x86 so I'd need an emulator
10:56:56 <saon> crc, fill takes arguements on stack as "data adress count" correct?
10:57:20 * saon just found fill and looked it up in the blocks
10:57:51 <saon> erm, nvm, lemme reread, that doesn't seem right
10:59:26 <crc> addr count byte 
11:00:00 <crc> eg: pad 100 'x fill
11:00:08 <crc> fills the first 100 bytes of pad with "x"
11:01:28 <saon> thanks :)
11:01:51 <Herkamire> docl: it runs great under qemu. Appears just as fast. I think the only thing that doesn't work is recovering from a crash. If you segfault under qemu it crashes. native it catches them, and if the source is still functional, it recompiles it's self and continues
11:02:29 <crc> saon: n/p
11:04:13 * crc wonders why qemu refuses to run the linux version of rf8
11:04:52 * crc wonders if qemu 0.7.0 will run it...
11:13:17 <Herkamire> wow, that came out 3 days ago
11:13:35 <crc> yeah
11:14:05 <crc> it runs the native and L4 ports ok, but your system still has 0.6.0 on it...
11:14:46 <Herkamire> I'm updating portage to see if I can get 0.7.0
11:15:01 <Herkamire> (without the actual 2 minutes of work required to install it myself)
11:16:23 <crc> hehe
11:22:54 <crc> bbiab
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11:53:17 <crc> back
11:53:51 <saon> crc, do you have any documentation for the additions to the native version other than the code in the block files?
11:54:11 <saon> for stuff like read.sector and write.sector
11:55:38 <crc> for 7.6.1?
11:55:41 <crc> or 8.0?
11:57:32 <saon> 7.6.1
11:58:57 <crc> let
11:59:00 <crc> let's see
11:59:06 <crc> 7.6.1 has a CHS based driver
11:59:36 <crc> You'd pass the cylinder, head, and sector to the word
11:59:41 <crc> (in that order)
11:59:55 <crc> There's a "sector" word that stores the loaded sector
12:00:50 <crc> There's an "lba" word that translates a logical block address to chs format
12:01:16 <saon> okay, thanks crc :)
12:01:29 <crc> So if you said "0 lba read.sector" then the MBR would be loaded at "sector"
12:01:30 <crc> n/p
12:01:41 <crc> It's totally different in 8.0 though...
12:01:53 <saon> how's it work in 8.0?
12:02:39 <crc> You have a purely lba-based model.
12:02:58 <crc> blk0 is a variable storing the first block number to load
12:03:10 <crc> #blks is a variable storing the number of blocks to load
12:03:33 <crc> r is used to read #blks sectors to "offset", starting at blk0
12:03:52 <crc> w is used to write #blks sectors from "offset" to disk, starting at blk0
12:04:10 <crc> "offset" is a word that points to block 0
12:04:48 <crc> 8.0's hdd support is a lot more flexible than 7.6.1 was
12:06:21 * crc needs to move the parallel and serial drivers from 7.6.1 to 8.0 soon
12:06:43 <thinfu> so the lba-based model is entirely block based model? :P
12:07:05 <crc> yes
12:07:37 <Herkamire> how long do you think it will be before we can buy a normal hard drive that's 4TB?
12:08:07 <crc> Another year or two?
12:09:32 <thinfu> well 3 years ago the best bang for buck price was $250 for 40 gigs.  few months ago it was $140 for 200 gigs.  so in 3 years it'll be 1 TB for $80
12:09:43 <thinfu> give or take :P
12:11:04 <thinfu> cdn dollars here
12:11:56 <thinfu> actually i think the push for bigger harddrives at cheaper prices is slowing down..
12:12:15 <thinfu> the average person doesn't seem to demand more than 80 gigs
12:12:32 <thinfu> a lot of the comps being put together these days are only 40 gigs to 80 gigs
12:12:49 <Herkamire> yeah
12:12:54 <Herkamire> most people just use email and web
12:12:55 * crc has never used more than 20GB
12:13:13 <Herkamire> some have a music collection, but those are usually less than 10GB
12:13:24 <thinfu> so what we need to do is invent some new thingamajig that fills up hdd space
12:13:31 <thinfu> so that ppl feel the need to upgrade :P
12:13:48 <Herkamire> it's called the internet ;)
12:14:28 <thinfu> true.. but how to trick people into caching 200 gigs of internet onto their hdd?
12:14:48 <Herkamire> dunno
12:14:52 <Herkamire> maybe just stop the name-calling
12:14:55 <Herkamire> pirate!
12:15:00 <thinfu> haha
12:15:17 <thinfu> maybe everyone should have their own search engine
12:15:46 <Herkamire> I bet a lot more harddrives would fill up if more people had software to rip DVDs
12:15:58 <saon> i have a 40gig filled and another 12 gig for system at around 5 gigs full
12:16:13 <saon> i have family guy and futurama episodes as well as a few movies
12:16:43 <saon> and music
12:17:04 <saon> that's really the only reason i'd need that much hd space
12:17:15 <Herkamire> my HD is 30GB, with a few partitions (and a couple OSes) it's getting mostly full
12:18:02 <thinfu> my 40 gig hdd is full but thats because 30 gigs was music & anime
12:18:42 <thinfu> at one point between my roommate and i, we had 110 gigs of anime and that was a pretty small collection
12:19:22 <Herkamire> movies are big
12:21:23 <thinfu> i think a personal search engine (or perhaps search agent) for everyone might be cool..
12:21:42 <thinfu> i mean think about all the sites that google hasn't indexed for political reasons! :P
12:23:19 <Herkamire> your own personal spider?
12:23:36 <thinfu> yeah..
12:24:06 <thinfu> surely we can trick people into haveing their personal search agents (agents = bots = spiders)
12:24:43 <thinfu> well nah..
12:24:48 <thinfu> microsoft will deal with it
12:24:50 <Herkamire> it just goes around sucking sites onto your hd?
12:25:10 <thinfu> yeah based on your specifications
12:25:34 <thinfu> or whatever
12:25:37 <thinfu> not a spider..
12:25:42 <thinfu> just indexing
12:25:44 <thinfu> not necessarily caching..
12:25:50 <thinfu> heh
12:25:54 <thinfu> i don't know the benefit tho!
12:25:58 <Herkamire> not caching? I thought we were trying to fill hds here
12:26:27 <thinfu> indexing is pretty filling :P
12:26:50 <crc> adding transparent version control would take up space too...
12:28:11 <thinfu> google only has 8 billion pages
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12:30:33 <thinfu> 8 billion pages at like a kilobyte each could be 800 gigs..
12:30:49 <thinfu> plently filling :P
12:32:59 <crc> if we wanted to fill hard drives, why not write bloated software?  ;)
12:33:36 <saon> heh
12:34:50 <crc> Who cares if we use a 412 megabyte library, as long as the app itself is only 1k? ;)
12:35:52 <thinfu> heh
12:36:14 <thinfu> and let that library get loaded into memory for each app
12:36:27 <crc> yeah
12:36:29 <thinfu> a copy of the library for each app in mem 
12:36:30 <thinfu> heh
12:37:13 * crc would rather code retroforth, where he can control the exact memory and size usage. With no bloated dependencies either :)
12:39:03 <thinfu> yeah
12:40:31 <crc> besides, there's just something nice about fully understanding the tools you use...
12:47:10 <Herkamire> 8 billion times 1 kilo is 8 terabytes
12:47:49 <thinfu> great, thats even better than the 4TB you wanted
12:47:50 <thinfu> :P
12:48:21 <Herkamire> I don't need 4TB, I was just curious how long it would take before storing sector numbers in 32 bits would become obsolete
12:48:32 <thinfu> ah
12:48:52 <Herkamire> 32 bits to store sectors, 512 byte secters... 2TB
12:48:56 <thinfu> well what about two 4TB then?
12:49:07 <thinfu> oh
12:49:57 <Herkamire> 2TB sounds like plenty to me
12:50:01 <thinfu> how come ext2 can handle 4TB ?
12:50:24 <Herkamire> maybe it works with it in 1K chucks
12:53:00 <thinfu> i coulda sworn that i read somewhere that the addressing model that my 200gb hdd uses can handle up to 4tb..  lba or better..
12:53:25 <crc> http://www.retroforth.org/fwiki/?id=index
12:53:44 <crc> I got RetroWiki 1 to use the new markup code :)(
12:53:44 <Herkamire> FWIW you'd have to cache the text from pages, not html. often there's no visible content (except the title) in the first KB of html documents
12:53:45 <crc> I got RetroWiki 1 to use the new markup code :)
12:54:32 <thinfu> so you mean you replaced the retrowiki 1 core with the dictionary trick?
12:54:37 <crc> no
12:54:49 <crc> the php stuff basically hides the words at this point
12:54:59 <crc> Fully sealing off the dictionary will come later
12:55:15 <thinfu> oh i see
12:55:26 <crc> (this was a hack job, just to prove it works ok in a live environment)
12:55:31 <thinfu> ah
12:55:50 <crc> I also updated the rf binary I use in it to 8.0-beta1 :)
12:56:00 <thinfu> btw the 3 column thing with the wiki squished in the middle just negates any and all interest that i have at looking at it or adding stuff to it :(
12:56:27 <crc> the three column stuff will be disappering soon
12:56:33 <thinfu> ok great 
12:56:37 <crc> I'm playing with ideas for a new layout :)
12:56:47 <thinfu> you're quite the web devver
12:56:56 <crc> heh
12:57:01 <thinfu> do you hate web dev yet? :P
12:57:10 <crc> http://retro.tunes.org/ is my site for experimenting with layouts... 
12:57:18 <crc> thinfu: yes
12:57:42 <thinfu> whats your plan with the forthworks layout?
12:57:44 <crc> I look forward to whenever swsch gets back to work on RetroWeb so I can code my pages in Forth rather than raw html
12:57:59 <thinfu> yeah
12:58:00 <crc> The forthworks layout is going to stay as-is
12:58:03 <crc> I like it
12:58:28 <saon> crc, looks sexy
12:58:30 <crc> But it's *not* retroforth-specific, so I don't want too much similarity in the designs
12:58:43 <crc> I did the logo image today
12:58:59 <saon> what's Dex4u?
12:59:18 <crc> http://falconrybells.co.uk/
12:59:35 <crc> A couple of people from the FASM message board are writing it
12:59:52 <crc> I did a RetroForth port (based on the native codebase) for them to play with
13:00:05 <thinfu> crc: so whats the difference between dex4u and bos and all the rest of the oses coded in asm designed for game dev
13:00:32 <crc> dex4u = essentially a 32-bit DOS
13:00:45 <saon> looks very sexy
13:00:48 <crc> BOS is less complete, but looks like it'll have a saner internal design
13:01:02 <thinfu> and what about v2os and the rest..
13:01:04 <crc> (the developers of Dex4u and BOS collaborate)
13:01:08 <crc> v2os is dead
13:01:21 <thinfu> yeah? any particular reason?
13:01:28 <crc> I discussed the possibility of a RetroForth port, but they weren't really helpful
13:01:38 <crc> thinfu: a stalled rewrite effort.
13:01:42 <thinfu> ah
13:01:45 <crc> It has barely changed in 3 years
13:02:01 <crc> v2os 0.7x can't even load a program from a disk
13:02:07 <thinfu> are there any other asm oses out there that are competing with dex4u etc ?
13:02:29 <thinfu> what about uuu
13:02:33 <thinfu> ununium or whatever
13:03:15 <crc> uuu is moving away from assembly
13:03:21 <crc> unununium IIRC
13:03:42 <thinfu> does dex4u run dos programs ? 
13:03:48 <saon> hrmm, dex4u looks interesting
13:03:55 <thinfu> i'm just curious if there's a need for dex4u really?
13:04:09 <thinfu> but i guess the ppl coding it think there is :P
13:04:10 <crc> thinfu: yes
13:04:31 <thinfu> k
13:04:45 <crc> thinfu: I personally prefer rf/native to dex4u, but that's because the main developer of dex4u is kind of uncooperative
13:04:56 <thinfu> yeah
13:04:59 <crc> For instance, I offered to add hard drive support to it for them
13:05:10 <crc> He refused, saying he didn't want hard drive support
13:05:20 <saon> wt...?
13:05:25 <crc> Now he's writing an hdd driver himself :(
13:05:29 <saon> how can you not want hd support?
13:05:33 <crc> Same thing with serial and parallel support
13:05:42 <thinfu> rf/native + game design code from ref/glypher = better than dex4u ;P
13:05:49 * crc even offered to add ext2fs support, and was also turned down
13:05:57 <crc> thinfu: I wouldn't doubt it
13:06:14 <saon> thinfu, ref/glypher?
13:06:17 <Herkamire> crc: I upgraded qemu
13:06:18 <crc> When glypher development stabilizes a bit I'll be getting a copy of it to review
13:06:21 <crc> Herkamire: cool
13:06:43 <crc> ref and glypher are forks of retroforth for game development
13:07:33 <crc> grr, 0.7.0 still won't run rf8/linux :(
13:07:49 <crc> glypher now has a colored editor 
13:08:14 <thinfu> Herkamire: how does the new qemu + herkforth handle the segfaults now?  handle cleanly or still crashes qemu?
13:08:19 <Herkamire> crc: do you know why not?
13:08:28 <crc> http://rogerlevy.blogspot.com/
13:08:31 <crc> Herkamire: no
13:08:35 <Herkamire> bugger
13:08:38 <crc> crc@herkamire retro8 $ qemu-i386 bin/rf
13:08:38 <crc> qemu: uncaught target signal 11 (Segmentation fault) - exiting
13:09:04 <crc> The native version runs fine under Qemu, at least on my box
13:09:12 <crc> so does the L4 port
13:09:38 <Herkamire> thinfu: well, it doesn't crash qemu, qemu lets you know that herkforth crashed, and then exits
13:09:46 <Herkamire> no different with 0.7.0
13:09:50 <thinfu> i see
13:10:06 <Herkamire> crc: cool
13:10:08 <thinfu> so thats its default setting, to exit when it crashes..
13:10:13 <thinfu> maybe you can toggle that somewhere?
13:10:37 <Herkamire> I really want to run the linux version. because the keybinding sucks for me in qemu when emulating an OS
13:10:59 <thinfu> hmm
13:11:07 <Herkamire> thinfu: I think the problem is that qemu doesn't support the signal() syscall
13:11:36 <Herkamire> but I'm not sure exactly
13:11:48 <thinfu> is that the same thing that the linux rf is having trouble with?
13:11:59 <thinfu> it sez signal in that error message :P
13:13:13 <Herkamire> yeah, qemu prints this when I start it up on herkforth: Unsupported ioctl: cmd=0x40147417
13:13:17 <Herkamire> Unsupported ioctl: cmd=0x80147418
13:13:19 <Herkamire> qemu: Unsupported syscall: 48
13:13:22 <Herkamire> qemu: Unsupported syscall: 48
13:13:22 <Herkamire> syscall 48 is signal()
13:13:42 <Herkamire> and the ioctls must be tcgetattr and tcsetattr
13:14:01 <Herkamire> because turning off the terminal echoing and such doesn't work
13:14:06 <crc> the generic (libc-backed) version also refuses to run under qemu :(
13:14:28 <thinfu> what about the freebsd one heh
13:14:40 <crc> thinfu: there is no freebsd version of rf8
13:14:46 <thinfu> when you run the linux one in qemu
13:14:50 <thinfu> are you loading a linux in qemu
13:14:51 <Herkamire> I don't think qemu does bsd anyway
13:14:52 <crc> No one has offered me ssh to a freebsd box :)
13:14:53 <thinfu> and then running rf ?
13:15:01 <crc> thinfu: no
13:15:12 <crc> qemu can emulate x86 linux for a single process
13:15:24 <Herkamire> qemu originally only did this
13:15:36 <Herkamire> it was designed to run linux programs on linux
13:15:42 <thinfu> ok i see
13:15:47 <Herkamire> but programs that were compiled for a different architecture
13:15:56 <thinfu> so you don't want to run linux in qemu because the nyour key bindings would get screwed too ?
13:16:13 <Herkamire> so it just emulates the CPU, and translates syscalls (byte ordering, ioctl numbers etc)
13:16:34 <Herkamire> I don't want to run linux in qemu for a number of reasons
13:16:36 <Herkamire> hd space
13:16:41 <Herkamire> slow slow slow
13:16:55 <Herkamire> keybindings
13:17:04 <Herkamire> and I don't have an image
13:17:34 <Herkamire> it's nice running a linux program with qemu because it uses your terminal
13:17:50 <Herkamire> it doesn't have to use a crappy builtin terminal
13:18:01 <thinfu> ok
13:20:41 <saon> anybody know how to acces the pc-speaker?
13:21:31 <Herkamire> so you can redirect/pipe i/o, copy, paste, and it uses your normal keybindings of course
13:21:35 * saon wants to make some music and morse code
13:22:24 <Herkamire> I want to make music too
13:23:12 <saon> i got my hp49g+ to make morse code :)
13:23:22 <saon> but userRpl is not as nice as forth
13:24:00 <Herkamire> saon: you want to access the speaker under native rf? or linux?
13:24:33 <Herkamire> under linux you can just open() /dev/fb and write() to it
13:24:41 <saon> native
13:24:55 * saon has his assembler book in hand
13:25:01 * crc adds ~ to RetroWiki's markups
13:25:48 <Herkamire> crc: can I see your new retrowiki syntax?
13:26:00 <saon> hrmm, port 42h
13:27:07 <crc> http://www.retroforth.org/fwiki/?id=QuickReference
13:27:10 <saon> and the lower two bits of port 61h
13:27:15 <crc> The syntax is pretty cut and dry
13:27:20 <crc> *text*   bold
13:27:39 <crc> italics:  /text/
13:27:46 <crc> underline: _text_
13:27:54 <crc> headings: =text=
13:28:00 <Herkamire> is there some way to have those characters in your text?
13:28:10 <crc> Links:  [Pagename|description]
13:28:15 <crc> Herkamire: ~*
13:28:19 <crc> ~/
13:28:23 <Herkamire> cool
13:28:26 <crc> ~ displays the next char
13:28:40 <crc> That's the entire syntax thus far
13:29:04 <crc> images are next...
13:29:25 <saon> crc, what's the input order for out.b?
13:29:27 <Herkamire> {imagename|alt}
13:29:40 <saon> data, port? or the reverse?
13:29:41 <crc> Herkamire: good idea :)
13:29:47 <crc> saon: I don't recall offhand
13:29:51 <saon> okies
13:29:57 * saon goes to experiment
13:30:26 <crc> port byte
13:31:04 <crc> port byte out.b
13:31:33 <saon> :) yes yes, that's what my beeping computer is telling me as well :D
13:31:40 * crc has barely touched 7.6 since 8.0 reached the same stability level
13:31:45 <crc> cool
13:36:11 <crc> http://www.retroforth.org/fwiki/?id=SandBox
13:36:18 <crc> showing an image :)
13:36:31 <crc> I'm not doing the alt attribute yet...
13:37:24 <crc> saon: you have sound?
13:37:35 * crc never got around to adding support for the PC speaker
13:41:09 <saon> hrmm, yes, sort of
13:41:21 <saon> writing to port 42h by itself is naughty
13:41:57 <saon> you're supposed to write to the command register (43h) with the data needed, but, i have to look at it carefully because it needs register values to write properly
13:42:00 <saon> =/
13:42:22 <saon> nvm, ax is top of stack, it should play nice
13:43:32 <crc> :)
13:44:36 <Herkamire> hrm
13:44:38 <saon> retroforth is most helpful in hex, decimal, and binary conversions :)
13:44:42 <Herkamire> what's with the font tags?
13:44:49 <crc> in what?
13:45:15 <Herkamire> your wiki
13:45:21 <crc> relics
13:45:38 <Herkamire> <font face='Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif' size=2><a href=http://www.retroforth.org/fwiki>home</a> | <a href=http://www.ret
13:45:40 <Herkamire>  <img src=http://www.retroforth.org/newlogo.png></font>
13:45:58 <crc> Heh
13:46:01 <Herkamire> oops, line cut off
13:46:15 <Herkamire> wonder if I can get w3m to open vim when I say "view source"
13:46:20 <crc> that line has been there since the first prototype of RetroWiki
13:46:39 <saon> okay, rebooting then writing code to play nice with the timer circuit and the control register
13:46:50 <crc> When I redo the wrapper, I'll fix it
13:51:02 <Herkamire> heh heh. I can
13:52:19 <Herkamire> for some reason the command to "edit current document" complains "Can't edit other than local file"
13:52:33 <Herkamire> but there's a command Edit currently rendered document (EDIT_SCREEN)
13:52:41 <Herkamire> which works fine
13:52:50 <Herkamire> edits what you see on the screen
13:52:57 <saon> crc, data in the top of the stack is in flat binary, not bcd, yes?
13:52:57 <Herkamire> but if you view source first... you get the source :)
13:54:09 <crc> no bcd
13:54:12 <crc> flat binary
14:00:05 <saon> blech, the example in this book is not very helpful
14:01:10 * Herkamire stops slacking
14:01:34 <saon> they lay out the command to port 43h as 8 bits. bit0 is binary or bcd, bits 1-3 is operation mode (?), bits 4,5 are operation type and bits 6,7 are the channel (10 for channel 2, the speaker)
14:02:15 <saon> but they give a value of b6 which denotes bcd, operation mode 3 (whatever that is), operation 2 (read/write high byte), and channel 2
14:15:39 <saon> oh well, got the nice on/off working at least
14:18:03 <saon> crc, what's faster? "61 61" or "61 dup"
14:18:58 <crc> Same speed
14:19:10 <crc> actually 61 dup will be slightly faster
14:19:21 <crc> a couple clock cyles...
14:19:58 <saon> yay, spon and spoff work
14:20:31 <crc> cool
14:20:46 * crc just fixed a couple of minor bugs in the PHP wrapper
14:21:04 <crc> now the RetroWiki is working properly at last :)
14:21:18 <saon> : spon hex 61 dup in.b 03 or out.b decimal ; : spoff hex 61 dup in.b fd and out.b decimal ;
14:21:46 <saon> i have a feeling that i'll start using rf in full hex though
14:22:13 <crc> : spon  $61 dup in.b $03 or out.b ;
14:22:13 <crc> : spoff $61 dup in.b fd and out.b ;
14:22:34 <crc> $ means the number is hex
14:22:53 <crc> (I almost never switch from decimal, execpt to see output in other bases)
14:23:16 <saon> cool
14:23:32 <crc>  'a	    | Gives 97, the ASCII value of 'a'
14:23:32 <crc>  %1100  |	Gives 12, or 1100 binary
14:23:32 <crc>  $ff	   | 255, or hexadecimal FF
14:23:32 <crc>  &010	  | 8, or octal 10
14:23:32 <crc>  #123	  | 123, decima 123
14:23:42 <crc> (The # prefix is new in 8.0)
14:24:44 <Herkamire> man, I'm getting serious here
14:24:55 <saon> no more need for char emit
14:24:55 <saon> yay
14:25:14 <Herkamire> got to thinking "if I'm going to change the source format, and the editor too to get this dependancy stuff in, might as well make other thanges to the source at the same time"
14:25:33 <Herkamire> I'm not sure that's good thinking
14:27:32 <crc> : speaker $61 dup in.b ;
14:27:32 <crc> : spon  speaker $03 or out.b ;
14:27:32 <crc> : spoff speaker $fd and out.b ;
14:27:36 <crc> factor it out a bit...
14:35:29 <thinfu> crc: why did you pick ~ thats wayyyy over there on the keyboard :P  how about ^ instead ;P
14:35:47 <crc> I like ~
14:35:56 <crc> I can type it with one hand :)
14:36:17 <crc> ^ takes two hands for me to type
14:38:04 <Herkamire> I don't like it when you have to escape a lot of stuff
14:39:23 <crc> me either
14:40:01 <Herkamire> in my wiki syntax I made sure there's only one special character
14:40:56 * crc isn't too concerned
14:41:10 <Herkamire> unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a human-editable way of doing away with escaping
14:41:24 <crc> My wiki has never really taken off, even when I tried various "normal" wikis
14:41:44 <thinfu> how can you type ~ with one hand?  i have to hold the right shift and reach my left pinky over ..
14:42:13 <thinfu> thats so that i don't move the left hand completely off the home row eh :P
14:42:13 <crc> thumb on left shift, ring finger reaches ~
14:42:19 <thinfu> cheater :P
14:42:24 <crc> I don't use the home row
14:42:42 <thinfu> how fast do you type?
14:42:44 <crc> (I actually do a lot of typing with one hand on the keyboard now)
14:42:51 <thinfu> ahh
14:42:53 <thinfu> hmm
14:42:53 <crc> On a good day 55-60 wpm
14:43:07 <crc> On a bad day as little as 5-10 wpm
14:43:11 <crc> depends on the pain...
14:43:17 <thinfu> how come one hand? the other is too painful?
14:43:25 <crc> I have one hand for the keyboard, one hand for the number keypad
14:43:34 <thinfu> maybe you should get the surgery..  apparently its quite a quick process
14:43:37 <Herkamire> I've toyed with the idea of learning one of the one handed dvorak layouts
14:43:53 <crc> I type one handed on qwerty
14:43:58 <Herkamire> but I'm dyslexic enough as it is thankyou
14:44:03 <thinfu> Herkamire: or both for each hand, two monitors, two keyboards for each hand, and twice the pain!!
14:44:25 <thinfu> two OSes too
14:44:27 <thinfu> mwahaha!
14:44:33 <Herkamire> har
14:45:01 <thinfu> i think it would be possible to do it tho
14:45:11 <thinfu> just use peripheral vision to see the stuff on both monitors
14:45:31 <thinfu> and also suspend part of your conscious thinking to type on both keyboards at the same time
14:45:34 <thinfu> a bit of training..
14:45:51 <thinfu> hmm
14:46:06 <Herkamire> ...
14:46:07 <thinfu> give the left brain the more logical chores..
14:46:08 <Herkamire> why?
14:46:16 <thinfu> and the right brain the more artistic ones
14:46:22 <thinfu> why not?
14:46:26 <thinfu> probably get things done faster :P
14:46:39 <Herkamire> probably get nothing done and a headache
14:46:48 <thinfu> yeah.. time to figure out how to draw with the keyboard only
14:46:55 <thinfu> nah i don't get headaches
14:47:42 <thinfu> i can count the number of headaches i've had in my life time on one hand 
14:48:42 <thinfu> did you know that the more dendrites you've got in your head the smarter you are?  and that dendrites are grown whenever you're learning something new?  so if you're constantly challenging yourself and learning new things you're gonna have a shitload of dendrites
14:50:00 <Herkamire> dendrites eh?
14:50:04 <Herkamire> hehe
14:50:26 <Herkamire> regardless of dendrites, I'd say that people that spend time learning new things would tend to be smart
14:50:37 <Herkamire> or at least if they spend time figuring things out
14:50:48 <Herkamire> I don't think wrote memorization makes you smar
14:50:49 <Herkamire> t
14:51:33 <Herkamire> sometimes we like to chant "Smart! Smart! S! M! R! T!"
14:51:42 <thinfu> heh
14:51:50 <thinfu> i don't believe rote memorization makes people smart
14:52:07 <Herkamire> factoring does though!
14:53:18 <thinfu> anyways, just so that you know dendrites are dynamic growth extensions of the nerves..  when someone first starts playing tetris their dendrites go up and then after a week of playing everyday and getting pretty good the dendrite levels fall slowly back to normal once the brain has figured out the game etc..
14:53:41 <Herkamire> go dendrites!
14:54:58 <thinfu> heh :)
14:55:10 <thinfu> is 0if equivalent to dup 0 = if ?
14:56:24 <thinfu> nevermind
15:00:54 <Herkamire> thinfu: yes
15:01:18 <thinfu> actually it worked without the dup 
15:11:11 <crc> where has arke been?
15:14:20 <thinfu> getting in with the bad crowd and smoking weed
15:17:31 <crc> !
15:21:28 <thinfu> i don't know :P
15:23:06 <Herkamire> oops
15:23:24 <Herkamire> yeah, no dup
15:23:26 <Herkamire> it eats tos
15:23:36 --- join: zoly (~l@p549DE99F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
15:23:55 <zoly> g'day
15:23:59 <Herkamire> hi zoly
15:24:39 <zoly> hi Herkamire
15:25:39 <crc> Hi zoly
15:26:12 <zoly> hi crc
15:27:16 * crc rewrote the core of RetroWiki today
15:27:21 <zoly> you know a forther with nick  quirin ?
15:27:32 <crc> no
15:27:44 <Herkamire> not I
15:28:04 <zoly> nor do i i think
15:28:49 <zoly> ah
15:29:00 <zoly> wiki search found him :)
15:30:12 <zoly> i reckon he doesn't know #forth then
15:30:23 <zoly> just stumpled apon this:  http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:QSchinagl
15:32:33 <zoly> i'm going to edit his profile, and will tell there about the existence of this channel
15:33:59 <zoly> ehm,,, i could be wrong in assuming hat quirin and qschinagle are the same person. 
15:34:04 <thinfu> yes, this channel is a gateway drug
15:34:54 <thinfu> zoly: it says "nice to see you! - quirin" at the bottom ..
15:37:43 <thinfu> zoly: btw, what does the forthfreak logo represent?
15:38:36 <zoly> that's the chosen icon to identify hackers. it represents a glider, of conway's life
15:39:29 <zoly> http://www.linuxtaskforce.de/hacker-howto-ger.html
15:39:59 <Herkamire> http://www.idrewthis.org/2004/cartersauce.html
15:40:43 <thinfu> zoly: nifty :)
15:40:48 <zoly> english version: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html
15:41:07 <zoly> http://www.nexistepas.com/enthuse/2003/11/glider-appropriate-hacker-emblem.htm
15:43:14 <zoly> http://www.catb.org/hacker-emblem/faqs.html
15:43:48 <thinfu> the only thing annoying about the hacker howto is the languages recommended heh
15:44:49 <thinfu> it should place more emphasis on lisp at the very least
15:45:05 <thinfu> but whatever :P
15:45:26 <crc> Python, C/C++, Java, Perl, and LISP....
15:45:33 <crc> Lisp is good
15:45:53 <crc> Java is a mess
15:45:58 <crc> C is tolerable
15:46:03 <zoly> "spot the one not belonging to this set"
15:46:12 <crc> And I just dislike C++. Perl, and Python
15:46:26 <crc> Why did he have to recommend learning Java!?
15:46:33 <zoly> right
15:46:37 <zoly> that's the one
15:47:03 <zoly> that may be a hidden intelligence test
15:47:10 <crc> maybe...
15:47:19 <crc> or perhaps he's a bit misguided.
15:47:37 <crc> I mean, whatever happened to FORTRAN and assembly?
15:47:58 <zoly> right. asm is definitely missing
15:48:19 <zoly> that's THE hacker language, if there's any
15:48:35 <crc> Assembly, Forth, and Lisp make up the trinity of languages IMO
15:48:45 <thinfu> crc: agreed..
15:48:52 <thinfu> 100%
15:48:57 <thinfu> i wasn't going to say that out loud tho
15:48:57 <thinfu> heh
15:50:29 * crc has used enough languages to know what he prefers. And I refuse to not speak my mind :)
15:51:59 <thinfu> crc: in what order does one learn those 3 languages tho?
15:52:07 <thinfu> i mean i think asm would be the first to learn
15:52:29 <zoly> asm was my 3rd
15:52:56 <thinfu> especially since a great book called "Assembly language step-by-step" Editition 2 by Jeff Dunteman doesn't require you to know previous languages, and gives you the full background before even telling you the assembly mnemonics
15:52:56 <zoly> after apl, then *looking ashamed* basic
15:53:06 <thinfu> zoly: hehe :)
15:53:10 <crc> I learned Lisp, Assembly, then Forth
15:54:14 <thinfu> i messed a little bit in basic, but only a little..  then learned C, then asm, then forth
15:54:23 <thinfu> but i don't see myself as going from forth to lisp
15:54:42 <thinfu> i just don't believe forth is lacking anything that lisp has heh
15:54:54 <thinfu> so thats the problem with learning asm then forth
15:54:59 <thinfu> i guess lisp would be a good first lang to learn :P
15:55:16 <zoly> ...lacking anything *really necessary* what lisp has
15:55:49 <zoly> otherwise one might argue "forth no garbage collection"
15:57:55 <thinfu> yeah
15:58:36 <zoly> one could stretch  : and ;  to be grouping operators, like lisp ( ) 
15:58:42 <thinfu> well if a guy builds an app in forth that actually needs garbage collection it shouldn't be that hard to build it for that app
15:58:45 <zoly> sort of
15:59:34 <zoly> there's a difference between "has it" and "can be used to make it"
16:01:04 <crc> I learned: basic, pascal, c, c++, java, javascript, cobol, fortran, php, lisp, assembly, then forth, in that order
16:01:22 <crc> (along with various other languages that I can't recall the exact order of)
16:02:09 <zoly> seems forth is often on of he last languages one learns
16:02:33 <crc> it was one of the last languages I encountered
16:02:34 <zoly> one of the ...
16:02:50 <crc> (APL was the other)
16:03:20 <zoly> i learned apl first because i didn't understand basic then :)
16:03:41 * crc wishes he had encounted forth sooner
16:07:33 <thinfu> qbasic, pascal, c, c++, asm, forth, java (school)  :P
16:08:35 <thinfu> i believe the key to forth is having the ability to unlearn all the other paradigms picked up
16:08:53 <thinfu> which isn't a problem for me, i unlearn so rapidly its gone before you can say "what?"
16:11:35 * crc kept bits of the old paradigms
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17:03:17 <crc> goodnight
17:27:50 --- quit: tkb (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
17:55:18 <swalters> evening all
18:03:40 <docl> howdy
18:06:54 <swalters> I'm having a strange go at things this evening.  I'm learning the dvorak keyboard.
18:08:25 <swalters> despite the awkwardness, it definitly feels more comfortable.
18:10:30 <docl> yeah I have experimented with that too
18:14:28 * docl switches to be like swalters :)
18:15:30 <docl> the learning curve makes it so tempting to quit
18:16:17 <swalters> I made the switch complete so that I //must// learn it well to use my computer.
18:16:51 <docl> hehe cool, good luck
18:18:01 <docl> I'm just using the KDE option here
18:18:29 <swalters> I also don't have anything important to do for a few days, so I have some slack in learning.
18:19:03 <docl> yeah that helps
18:19:21 * swalters goes to play on the typing tutor.\
18:21:43 <docl> it is surprising when you come back and remember it so much better than last time.
18:24:15 <swalters> I'm amazed at how easily I am picking it up.
18:25:10 <docl> the key is to press them really fast so it goes into the long term memory quicker
18:28:22 <swalters> I stop and think about the form of the entire word before I type it.  Then I type the entire word as fast as I can.  You should learn words, not letters.
18:28:55 <docl> hmm good idea
18:33:55 <docl> love the concept
18:36:32 <docl> hmm looks like I missed a language-comparison session :P
18:36:42 <swalters> Well, you think in words, but you must pronounce each sound.  How should typing be any different?
18:39:27 <docl> the letters must be linked somehow
18:44:41 <swalters> Did you know that when you read that you cue mostly off the shape of the word?
18:44:52 <docl> yeah the mind more easily memorizes words first, then the individual letters can come later
18:44:58 <swalters> Not the letters?
18:45:18 <docl> hmm interesting
18:46:57 <swalters> It's what speedreading is based on... learning to ignore the letters.
18:47:29 <swalters> and read the shapes.
18:49:06 <swalters> Personally, I think I'm doing quite well for only two hours of using dvorak.
18:49:10 <docl> hmm maybe that's why my progress has been slow in that area
18:49:33 <docl> yes, very :)
18:51:19 <docl> were you a touch-typist already?
18:51:57 <swalters> Yes...  since the second grade
18:53:00 <docl> that musta helped
18:54:21 <docl> me I just looked at the keys all my life so I had to unlearn a bit
18:54:28 <swalters> *shrug*  Who knows.
18:55:05 <docl> it's better now than it was
18:55:57 <swalters> Put a towel over your hands, and don't look at the screen as you type.
18:56:54 <swalters> You will benifit greatly from that.
18:57:29 <docl> hmm type with my eyes closed maybe?
19:00:55 <docl> well I don't look so much in dvorak anyways, but the screen is a bit of a distraction I guess
19:00:57 <swalters> for a while...
19:02:17 <docl> does seem te help make less mistakes if I close my eyes
19:03:55 <docl> since I can't backspace as much
19:04:51 <swalters> sight is the last link you can remove in the typing chain.
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19:42:05 <swalters> using the typing tutor is stressful...
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.04.30