00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.04.23
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08:21:22 <crc> http://retroforth.org/handbook/home.html 
08:21:22 <crc> http://retroforth.org/tutorial/home.html 
08:21:22 <crc> My work in progress on the documentation :)
08:25:56 <tathi> nice
08:28:40 <tathi> in design philosophy (handbook) you have "you'll may yourself: Why..."
08:30:31 <crc> still a work in progress...
08:32:43 <tathi> yeah.
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10:06:48 <crc> Should I merge the tutorial into the handbook?
10:07:45 * tathi thinks it would be nice to have a link from the handbook, at least...
10:08:17 <tathi> so yeah, maybe
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12:38:41 <zoly> g'day
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15:32:33 <crc> http://forthworks.com/blog/?p=48
15:32:57 <slava> i think tutorial should come first
15:33:03 <crc> why?
15:33:10 <slava> good question :)
15:33:42 <crc> The handbook is mainly intended for those already familiar with Forth, as is the current tutorial
15:34:15 <crc> I plan to write a better tutorial for those who don't know Forth
15:34:26 <slava> cool
15:34:45 <slava> i'll point people learning factor to your tutorial too :) for grasping stack manipulation and such
15:34:51 <crc> cool
15:35:08 <slava> right now i'm working on a new reference manual, with two parts -- language/library and development tools. the second part is done
15:36:15 <crc> I'm still in the early stages of actually getting the RetroForth Handbook to a useful state
15:36:32 <slava> i've redone my docs sevearl times now
15:36:41 <slava> its hard to find the right balance between introductory material and a reference guide
15:36:59 * crc remembers when RetroForth's documentation consisted of a (short) README file
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16:34:19 * crc finally merged the 386 assembler from Albert van der Horst into the library
16:35:36 <slava> that assembler is terrible :/
16:36:15 <crc> I know
16:36:30 <crc> it does work though
16:37:01 <slava> so you'll rewrite your words to use this assembler?
16:37:04 <crc> mine still hasn't progressed beyond a couple of instructions (push, pop, mov, drop)
16:37:04 <crc> no
16:37:05 <slava> instaed of hard-coded constnats
16:37:14 <slava> why not?
16:37:18 <crc> I'll still use hard coded constants in the core
16:37:37 <crc> I don't want to have to depend on an assembler to bootstrap the core startup code
16:37:48 <slava> why not?
16:37:57 <slava> the assembler is not too big is it?
16:38:11 <crc> 6k of source, in block format
16:39:36 <crc> 3638 bytes as a traditional file
16:40:08 <crc> RetroForth's startup code is 2736 bytes
16:40:21 <crc> And the assembler depends on some of the words in it
16:41:11 <slava> i don't think you'd lose any users by increasing the startup code to 9kb :)
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16:41:35 <crc> I'd still have to use hardcoded constants in places though
16:41:42 <slava> hmm
16:42:36 <crc> Either that or shift more of the words to precompiled part, which I refuse to do
16:42:55 <slava> metacompiling is an option :)
16:43:07 <slava> then you'd only need to load the assembler while metacompiling
16:45:01 <crc> I will metacompile at some point in the future
16:45:39 <slava> i don't think i ever will
16:47:31 <crc> heh
16:47:48 <crc> Factor is significantly more complex than RF though
16:48:18 <slava> also its not x86-only :)
16:48:52 <crc> true
16:49:18 * crc is planning to start work on PPC and ARM versions of RF later this year
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16:59:41 <arke> NOOO
16:59:42 <arke> lol
17:00:10 <crc> arke: ?
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17:10:54 <slava> crc, you'd have to teach me ARM assembly :)
17:15:52 <crc> ok :)
17:16:23 <crc> it can't be much worse than x86 assembler... ;)
17:17:01 <slava> ppc is really simple
17:17:23 <slava> my x86 assembler is 273 lines, ppc is 74
17:17:39 <slava> both are far from complete, but they both support about the same percentage of cpu features
17:19:23 <Herkamire> :) fun
17:19:44 <slava> http://paste.lisp.org/display/7676 would load into any forth, you'd just have to rename a handful of words. it doesn't use any oop features at all
17:20:42 <Herkamire> slava: lately, I've been working on herkforth to make it so it stores each definition seperately
17:20:54 <slava> what does that mean?
17:21:17 <slava> no more blocks?
17:21:20 <Herkamire> so instead of having my source in blocks
17:21:31 <slava> so how does the editor look now?
17:21:34 <Herkamire> each word has a chunk of data with the source tokens for it's definition in it
17:21:55 <slava> would be cool if there was still some kind of logical groupings, for editing several related words at once
17:22:05 <Herkamire> I don't think I'm going to change the way the editor looks
17:22:34 <slava> hey, i should try herkforth in my imac!
17:22:41 <Herkamire> I'll still have blocks, as a user concept
17:22:42 <slava> will it run over ssh or does it need direct virtual console access?
17:22:48 <Herkamire> I'm basically just changing the implementation
17:23:02 <crc> slava: is "shift" a left or right shift?
17:23:08 <slava> crc, right
17:23:10 <slava> sorry, left
17:23:20 <Herkamire> works over ssh
17:23:21 <slava> crc, 10 2 shift . => 20
17:23:27 <slava> i mean 40 :)
17:23:34 <Herkamire> runs on linux, (any architecture supported by qemu)
17:23:34 <slava> Herkamire, ok, i'll try it right now
17:23:42 <slava> Herkamire, i don't have a keyboard/mouse on the mac, taht's why i asked
17:23:46 <slava> its a 233mhz g3
17:23:58 <Herkamire> doesn't run on osx
17:24:03 <slava> this is linux/ppc
17:24:06 <Herkamire> cool
17:24:11 <slava> no way i'd run os x on a g3 :)
17:24:21 <slava> or java, for that matter
17:24:27 <Herkamire> :)
17:24:36 <crc> slava: ok
17:25:11 <Herkamire> slava: you could try my newly written herkforth crash course :)
17:25:12 <Herkamire> http://herkamire.com/jason/herkforth_crash_cours
17:25:14 <slava> Herkamire, it works
17:25:18 <Herkamire> http://herkamire.com/jason/herkforth_crash_course
17:25:24 <slava> is there an 'e' there?
17:25:28 <Herkamire> good :)
17:25:29 <slava> http://herkamire.com/jason/herkforth_crash_course exists
17:25:40 <Herkamire> yeah, I didn't paste too well there
17:26:13 <slava> how do i remove a word from the editor?
17:26:26 <Herkamire> \
17:26:35 <slava> this is a very interesting UI
17:26:38 <crc> slava: what is compile-cell ?
17:26:47 <Herkamire> mmm... that would be a good thing to have in the crash course :)
17:26:55 <slava> crc, i guess its like 4, or something
17:27:02 <slava> crc, adds a 4 byte literal to the compiled code area
17:27:11 <slava> crc, ppc instructions are always 32 bytes so you won't need 3, 2, 1,
17:27:14 <slava> err, 32 bits
17:27:16 <slava> i can't type today
17:27:18 <Herkamire> I decided I wanted a different key to delete one letter on the input line, than the key that deletes words from the source
17:28:43 <slava> Herkamire, this is really cool
17:28:48 <Herkamire> :) thanks
17:28:54 <crc> slava: one more question
17:28:58 <crc> What is w>h/h ?
17:29:33 <slava> crc, word to half/half
17:29:35 <slava> : w>h/h dup -16 shift HEX: ffff bitand >r HEX: ffff bitand r> ;
17:29:44 <slava> you give it a 32-bit integer, it pushes the high/low 16 bits
17:32:28 <Herkamire> oh, as I was saying, I'll still display the source in blocks.
17:32:45 <Herkamire> (blocks as a user interface, not an implementation)
17:32:56 <crc> http://paste.lisp.org/display/7676#1
17:33:12 <Herkamire> the implementation of the source blocks will be a small data object for each block listing which definitions appear there.
17:33:50 <slava> Herkamire, ah, that's cool -- 'logical' blocks
17:35:03 <slava> crc, nice
17:35:50 <Herkamire> I agree that there needs to be groupings of definitions
17:35:59 <Herkamire> and they should probably be grouped manually by the user
17:36:31 <Herkamire> I haven't implemented the new blocks yet
17:36:33 <slava> you could have a key that takes the word under the cursor, and makes a new block listing all the words that use that word
17:36:46 <slava> i use this feature in factor all the time (except it just prints a list, no blocks :)
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17:37:00 <Herkamire> but I've got code to go through the dictionary, and create a data object with it's definition
17:37:44 <Herkamire> in the future, herkforth will be able to have a listing of words/definitions like that
17:37:52 <Herkamire> that can be the results of any sort of query
17:37:58 <slava> neat
17:38:05 <Herkamire> currently the editor can only display source blocks
17:38:10 <Herkamire> but in the future, it will be more flexible
17:38:26 <Herkamire> eg it could display all words that start with ed-
17:38:30 <slava> yup
17:39:06 <Herkamire> or words that use the current word is a good one
17:39:20 <slava> the first one is useful too, i have an 'apropos' word for that
17:39:44 <Herkamire> currently (repository only I think) there's a key to see the next usage of a word, so you can browse through the places it's used. that's very handy
17:40:56 <Herkamire> not sure how I'll implement this. I'll probably have a memory space that is a sort of block that the editor overwrites when you do such searches
17:41:17 <slava> this merging of the editor and interpreter is neat
17:41:37 <Herkamire> :)
17:41:48 <Herkamire> oh, I thought you were doing that too
17:42:03 <Herkamire> you were using jedit... that's right
17:42:19 <slava> its not as integrated
17:42:21 <Herkamire> you had some way of executing stuff without leaving the editor iirc
17:42:33 <slava> yes, i can select a range of text and execute it
17:42:46 <slava> it just sends it over a socket
17:43:17 <Herkamire> I find the tight integration extremely productive
17:43:22 <slava> no doubt
17:44:09 <Herkamire> the editor will be expanded later to be able to edit different things
17:44:12 <Herkamire> like text
17:44:17 <Herkamire> tables
17:44:23 <Herkamire> and eventually images
17:45:47 <slava> will there be comments? :)
17:45:54 <Herkamire> heh :)
17:46:08 <Herkamire> yeah, something like that
17:47:06 <slava> have you seen squeak before? where you're heading is a forth equivalent (but much lighter). that's very cool
17:47:15 <Herkamire> I want to have accessible documentation about each word
17:47:22 <Herkamire> and have it hooked into the wiki
17:47:35 <Herkamire> yeah, I've played with squeak
17:47:37 <Herkamire> very cool
17:47:48 <Herkamire> but horrid UI and the graphics were a bit slow on my machine
17:48:21 <Herkamire> I was very very impressed by how easy it was to find the source code for stuff and fix it!
17:48:26 <slava> the concepts behind the UI are good but the usability is poor, and the graphics are just done by writing to a framebuffer
17:48:32 <Herkamire> but quite dismayed that nobody had done so...
17:48:54 <Herkamire> what sort of concepts?
17:49:09 <slava> well, you can edit any object through the UI
17:49:23 <slava> you build your program's UI while it runs, so to speak
17:49:24 <Herkamire> it may very well have not been their fault it was slow, graphic things tend to be slow on my X
17:49:28 <slava> because there's no edit time/run time distinction
17:49:39 <Herkamire> right. that is very cool
17:49:42 <slava> well, it doesn't even use X, other than mapping a shared memory buffer. you can run squeak without X, in fact
17:49:49 <Herkamire> I mean like the scrollbars and clicking on everything is horrid
17:49:53 <slava> yeah
17:50:04 <slava> on my machine it feels slower than swing
17:50:44 <Herkamire> yeah, I know, but theres something slowing it down. probably some kind of protected memory checking or something
17:51:16 <Herkamire> I have some weird (possibly hardware) problem that makes it so I can't switch away from the X VT and back without losing my display
17:51:21 <slava> squeak is also a bytecode interpreter :)
17:51:31 <Herkamire> yeah
17:52:08 <Herkamire> it's a shame
17:52:14 <Herkamire> there's a lot of really cool stuff out there
17:52:24 <Herkamire> some awesome concepts, some great implementations
17:52:30 <slava> but few combine both :)
17:52:40 <Herkamire> but so much of it just has such horrible interfaces that I don't want to use them
17:53:11 <Herkamire> all this focus on the concepts and stuff, and they forget to pay attention to the users/programmers
17:53:12 <slava> its hard for us programmers to make good UIs though... because we understand the workings of our programs, so some things seem intuitive that don't to a casual user
17:53:28 <Herkamire> eh
17:53:38 <Herkamire> that too
17:53:41 <slava> i mean, it takes user feedback to make a good UI
17:53:51 <Herkamire> but I mean like sit and program for an hour, and pay attention to what you waste time doing
17:53:56 <Herkamire> then change it so you don't have to do that anymore
17:54:02 <slava> yes, that too
17:54:13 <Herkamire> I don't think most of these systems are very productive for the people who made them either
17:54:46 <slava> true
17:54:53 <Herkamire> I tried some obscure language last year (dylan or something) and it seemed really neet, but the hello world program took some increadibly long time to compile (like 20-30 secconds)
17:55:05 <Herkamire> I was totally miffed
17:55:09 <slava> dylan has exceptionally verbose syntax
17:55:20 <Herkamire> how could people sit and try to write software with those sorts of compile times?
17:55:23 <slava> yes, i hate long turn-around times too. i prefer not having to restart anything at all, and just reload code
17:55:28 <Herkamire> debugging must be absolute hell
17:55:38 <Herkamire> debugging is already the biggest time waster of all
17:55:50 <Herkamire> we need to develop systems for making the debugging go quicker
17:55:51 <slava> java has this problem, except its not as bad as 30 seconds on my machine, but still a waste of time to recompile/restart
17:56:19 <slava> being able to edit code in the running image is a good first step
17:56:42 <Herkamire> herkforth can recompile all it's code instantly
17:56:44 <slava> woohoo -- i just got my C library interface working on PowerPC
17:56:52 <Herkamire> nice :)
17:57:01 <slava> well, i haven't fully tested it yet... just some simple functions
17:57:04 <slava> i should try SDL or something.
17:58:12 <slava> heh -- i wonder how slow my mandelbrot program will run on this mac :)
17:58:33 <Herkamire> can you mmap /dev/fb ?
17:58:56 <slava> i don't see why not
17:59:02 <slava> but i already have code for the sdl binding, that's all
18:00:28 <Herkamire> oh, I was just thinking that maybe you could run the herkforth mandelbrot code, but I just remembered you're running it over ssh
18:00:57 <slava> yah, i gave the imac's kb and mouse to my sister (she got herself a powerbook and likes using a real kb and mouse when she's not on the road.)
18:03:36 <Herkamire> yep
18:08:54 <Herkamire> lemme know if you have any ideas for herkforth
18:09:13 <Herkamire> and I want to know what's confusing and annoying etc
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18:10:38 <slava> Herkamire, nothing confused me yet :)
18:11:15 <Herkamire> ! :)
18:12:02 <CXDoctor> hey Herkamire 
18:12:27 <CXDoctor> I just got the herkforth src dl'd on this mac- it's macosx. how do I build?
18:12:53 <crc> a) start linux
18:12:55 <crc> b) make
18:12:56 <crc> :)
18:13:13 <CXDoctor> or should I peek at the doc/ dir for this info
18:13:47 <Herkamire> CXDoctor: it doesn't run on osx
18:13:54 <CXDoctor> aw rats
18:13:55 <Herkamire> I started porting it, but never finished
18:14:32 <Herkamire> I probably should finish the port
18:14:35 <CXDoctor> I probably would of played around with it for like 10 minutes and left it alone anyway
18:14:48 <Herkamire> it's been sitting, half done for many months
18:15:33 <CXDoctor> yah man, once you've covered x86 and ppc, you're set for making the majority happy.. even the weird guys with other architectures would understand why you dont have ports like sparc ,etc
18:15:38 <Herkamire> I kept thinking that I should just get the native version done, so anybody with a mac could just boot it regardless of OS
18:15:57 <CXDoctor> or that, ya
18:16:04 <slava> cx, herkforth is ppc only
18:16:17 <arke> works on qemu :)
18:16:26 <slava> is it fast?
18:16:27 <Herkamire> herkforth runs on spark just as well as x86... through qemu
18:16:49 <Herkamire> everything but the mandelbrot is plenty fast under the emulator
18:17:09 <Herkamire> complete recompile and save is still instant
18:17:44 <Herkamire> you need linux though
18:18:08 <Herkamire> well, might work on osx under qemu
18:18:26 <CXDoctor> I wonder if there is a liveCD linux for ppc
18:18:35 <Herkamire> CXDoctor: sure is
18:18:40 <Herkamire> CXDoctor: I've used several
18:18:50 <Herkamire> or at least two
18:18:53 <CXDoctor> cool, what's the closest to knoppix?
18:18:57 <CXDoctor> or what's your fav
18:18:58 <CXDoctor> lol
18:18:59 <Herkamire> that's generally how you install linux
18:19:13 <slava> ranlib: .libs/libSDL.a: No space left on device
18:19:15 <slava> NOOO
18:19:26 <Herkamire> slava: is it really full?
18:19:45 <Herkamire> oh, I don't know a good bootable linux that's good for just using. I always just use them to get linux installed
18:20:00 <CXDoctor> yah I meant those demo cd's
18:24:42 <Herkamire> yeah, I've run into them before, but I don't remember the name of any
18:27:44 <Herkamire> CXDoctor: how long you going to be around?
18:30:01 <CXDoctor> heh. iono im just taking looks into 'more native langs' than java for my language. for now, im decided on C, but if a forth impresses me enough...
18:30:26 <CXDoctor> so Im lead to ask crc about retroForth too, lol
18:31:17 <Herkamire> cool
18:31:21 <Herkamire> what sort of language you working on?
18:31:35 <Herkamire> I'm going to see if I can get herkforth to run on osx now
18:31:41 <CXDoctor> cool
18:32:27 <CXDoctor> my lang isnt closely related to anything that exists already. some ideas from lisp, a coincidence of similarity with newLisp in the OO, and syntax like nothing I've seen before
18:33:11 <CXDoctor> prefix syntax, really- here http://contex.sf.net
18:33:56 * Herkamire looks briefly
18:34:47 <CXDoctor> I gotta make one of my last java releases tonight. it's alot better in cvs right now
18:35:01 <crc> CXDoctor: what are you lead to ask me about?
18:35:27 <CXDoctor> could I get retro to run on macosx?
18:35:34 <CXDoctor> which download, if so?
18:35:46 <slava> retro is written in x86 assembly
18:35:52 <Herkamire> fun
18:36:07 <slava> CXDoctor, gforth is written in C, if you want a C forth
18:36:18 <CXDoctor> ehhee
18:36:21 <crc> CXDoctor: you can run the native version in Qemu or Bochs
18:36:22 <CXDoctor> gforth for a c forth
18:36:32 <Herkamire> gforth is quite fast
18:36:48 <crc> Or run the L4 version under Qemu
18:36:51 <Herkamire> yeah, very fast for a C forth
18:36:58 <Herkamire> and for an interpreted language in general
18:37:14 <CXDoctor> nah, I wouldnt want to build a language ontop of a language ontop of assembly ontop of an emulator ontop of macosX
18:37:21 <CXDoctor> just doesnt sound cool
18:37:44 <crc> ?
18:38:23 <CXDoctor> nvm that. Ill try gforth
18:44:01 <Herkamire> ga! this mach-o file format is freakin rediculous
18:44:16 <slava> Herkamire, haha indeed
18:44:23 <Herkamire> seems to me the smallest possible header size (no linking, just one load) is 340 bytes
18:54:25 <Herkamire> heh, I'm not putting that whole ugly thing in with ,
18:54:39 <Herkamire> $feedface , $12 , ...
18:54:47 <slava> lol
18:57:09 <Al2O3> is zoly around any more?
18:57:15 <Al2O3> is he the guy that did the JSForth?
18:57:36 <crc> yes
18:57:42 <crc> zoly was here earlier today
18:57:55 <Al2O3> I was just at google, doing the google.calc(expr) thing :)  and thought it would be really cool for zoly to have  his jsforth as part of the front end search system of google.
18:58:08 <Al2O3> maybe he should contact google.  :)  wouldn't that be slick as sh*t!
18:58:17 <crc> heh
18:58:43 <Al2O3> at the search engine, you could just typing   jsforth   and you'd get the runtime up and going :)
18:58:52 * crc should see about writing the "retro" vocabulary for JS-Forth at some point
19:02:31 <Al2O3> crc should indeed get up off his forth cheek and do it.
19:02:32 <Al2O3> :)
19:04:28 <crc> Al2O3: work on RetroForth 8 is higher priority for me ;)
19:17:56 <Al2O3> crc, anyone doing it for PPC, or am I still the one man in the shoot/slot for it.
19:18:07 <Al2O3> I heard someone else was gonna get started, but never did.
19:18:26 * Al2O3 is currently getting JSforth working in Ruby.
19:18:37 <Al2O3> Darn thing almost translates directly.
19:18:49 <crc> Al2O3: I hope to get some stuff on RetroForth/PPC working this summer
19:19:20 * crc ported Slava's PPC assembler to RF today
19:19:20 <Al2O3> it would be slick as snot if you got a bridge to cocoa working too :)
19:19:27 <Al2O3> neat
19:19:41 <arke> slick as snot, lol
19:19:48 <Al2O3> is slava's ppc assembly in/post fix, or prefix?
19:19:56 <crc> prefix
19:20:08 <slava> postfix
19:20:32 <slava> it just takes the register numbers and operands from the stack
19:33:51 <Herkamire> hmmm... one part of this mach-o-header business I'm not sure about
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19:38:57 <Herkamire> do osx binaries really have to be a multiple of 4KB?
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19:48:49 <arke> Herkamire: that would be screwed up...
19:49:48 <Herkamire> I think that's the case
19:50:02 <Herkamire> well, I doubt herkforth will be running on osx by the end of the night
19:50:49 <Herkamire> maybe
19:50:53 <Herkamire> I'm getting a little boored though
19:53:19 <Al2O3> btw, to all the forthers here, get out and build a kite and relax for a day :)  I built my first kite in about 25 years today.  SPent about 3 bucks in materials, made a box kite, it flies, and the kids are stoked to fly it tomorrow (tonight I test flew it around the neighborhood behind my bicycle at dusk).
19:53:36 <Al2O3> Its related to forth, only in that the box kite has 4 sides :)
19:53:37 <slava> Herkamire, windows is the same
19:54:05 <Herkamire> I love vim:   :s/\(..\)/\~\1/g
19:55:17 <Herkamire> puts a hexdump (with just the straight hex chars) into my ~ encoding. here's my elf header:
19:55:21 <Herkamire> ~7f~45~4c~46~01~02~01~00~00~00~00~00~00~00~00~00~00~02~00~14~00~00~00~01~10~05~1d~50~00~00~00~34~00~00~00~00~00~00~00~00~00~34~00~20~00~01~00~28~00~00~00~00~00~00~00~01~00~00~00~00~10~00~00~00~10~00~00~00~00~05~1d~94~00~10~00~00~00~00~00~07~00~01~00~00
19:56:28 <arke> .....lol....
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21:17:55 <Sonarman> Al2O3: hehe, i like your nick. i've been using electrolysis to dissolve metals; yesterday i made Al(OH)3
21:18:34 <slava> i posted a weblog entry about the PowerPC port of Factor's C library interface: http://www.jroller.com/page/slava/
21:29:24 <Herkamire> anybody want to give my a shell account on a Mac OS X box so I can debug herkforth for osx?
21:32:38 <crc> goodnight
21:32:53 <Herkamire> 'night crc
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23:31:25 <Herkamire> herkforth is mostly working on Mac OS X :)
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.04.23