00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.04.03 00:42:22 --- quit: Sonarman ("Lost terminal") 00:43:26 --- quit: Topaz (Remote closed the connection) 01:32:28 --- join: yoyo (yoyo@222.90.83.25) joined #forth 01:38:29 --- part: yoyo left #forth 04:01:06 --- join: solar_angel (~jenni@HSE-Toronto-ppp167019.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 04:10:19 --- join: aum (~aum@60-234-138-239.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) joined #forth 04:26:43 --- quit: solar_angel ("NO CARRIER.") 04:53:25 --- quit: saon ("Lost terminal") 04:53:59 --- join: saon (1000@c-66-177-224-130.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 05:39:18 --- join: Topaz (~top@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust219.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 06:13:39 --- join: yoyofreebsd (~yoyo@222.90.58.243) joined #forth 06:15:09 --- quit: yoyofreebsd (Client Quit) 06:16:01 --- join: yoyofreebsd (~yoyo@222.90.58.243) joined #forth 06:17:05 --- quit: yoyofreebsd (Client Quit) 06:19:34 --- join: bbls (~bbls@80.97.121.133) joined #forth 06:42:50 --- quit: aum () 07:00:51 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp01375108pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 07:43:03 --- join: yoyofreebsd (~yoyo@222.90.58.243) joined #forth 07:43:10 --- quit: yoyofreebsd (Remote closed the connection) 07:44:57 --- join: yoyofreebsd (~yoyo@222.90.58.243) joined #forth 07:47:12 --- quit: yoyofreebsd (Client Quit) 08:55:14 --- quit: bbls () 09:14:31 --- quit: al2o3 ("Leaving") 09:23:55 --- join: saon_ (1000@c-66-177-224-130.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:24:12 --- quit: saon (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:25:40 --- quit: saon_ (Client Quit) 09:37:24 --- join: Al2O3 (~Al2O3@c-24-1-126-202.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:52:02 --- join: saon (1000@66.177.224.130) joined #forth 10:09:34 --- nick: Al2O3 -> SeaForth 10:11:22 --- nick: SeaForth -> Al2O3 10:15:37 --- nick: Al2O3 -> SeaForth 10:17:43 --- nick: SeaForth -> Al2O3 10:28:55 --- join: bbls (~bbls@80.97.121.133) joined #forth 10:34:16 --- join: asymptote (~dmesg@68.48.8.92) joined #forth 10:36:28 --- quit: asymptote ("Free the mallocs!") 10:43:18 --- nick: sk1p_ -> sk1p 11:33:37 --- join: Robert (~purple@c-f778e055.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 11:57:06 --- quit: warpzero (Excess Flood) 11:57:13 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@wza.us) joined #forth 12:21:24 --- quit: bbls (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 12:53:06 --- join: Sonarman (matt@adsl-64-160-164-150.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 13:02:34 --- join: Quartus (~trailer@ansuz.pair.com) joined #forth 13:49:04 --- join: tathi_ (~josh@pcp01375108pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 13:51:26 --- quit: tathi (Nick collision from services.) 13:51:30 --- nick: tathi_ -> tathi 14:22:49 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ts001d0816.wdc-dc.xod.concentric.net) joined #forth 14:25:28 Hi, TheBlueWizard 14:25:58 hiya Robert 14:30:48 This insomnia thing is tiring. 14:31:40 Heh 14:32:26 I'm just about to replace my 5-14 sleeping schedule with something more conformist (although considerably less comfortable). 14:35:53 I can never convince my body to keep a reasonable schedule. Thinfu made some suggestions that seem to help. I now try to split my sleeping into two-four hour blocks. My body just seems to function better that way. 14:37:23 I'm not really sure what is reasonable. 14:38:37 i fortunately sleep like a brick, tis just the waking up bit i don't like ;) 14:39:05 I start to wake up when others are falling asleep, and I start to fall asleep when others are waking up. And no, it's not a matter of not trying. I seem to be one of the very few true night people. I sleep best if I'm in sunlight. My happiest days had me going to sleep about 1pm and waking about 8pm 14:40:21 You should be replaced by a better functioning human, please report to the service desk. 14:44:49 no joke. 15:02:55 --- join: try_pratchet (~bu@69.111.79.68) joined #forth 15:03:11 hi 15:03:22 Hi there 15:03:23 is there a web server in forth? 15:03:41 is it suitible for web development? 15:03:44 how does it compare to say lisp? 15:03:58 anyone have a forth website I can read? 15:04:05 Never done any web stuff in either 15:04:09 is there a app archive of forth apps? 15:04:23 Yes, I'll give you some links 15:05:24 http://grail.cba.csuohio.edu/~somos/forth.html 15:05:45 A lot of links there. 15:26:27 I've heard a couple of people on here mention web work done in forth. 15:27:00 Wait around and see if they answer your question. Eventually, someone will wake up/come back from real life and answer it. 15:27:40 lisp and forth are comparable in expressive power and in many ways in actual expression. However, the idioms are different enough to make them each very unique. 15:28:29 Frankly, I've found that learning forth has helped my Scheme coding and getting better at Scheme has helped my forth understanding. 15:28:51 Never been much of a lisper myself. 15:28:52 hmm...Bernd Paysan has a wiki-like markup language in forth. His page is at http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/ 15:29:29 Also, while lisp is ostensibly a functional language, forth is not ostensibly functional. However, it would be easy to do functional programming in forth... for various values of "functional." 15:30:12 Forth is even more like portable assembly than C. 15:30:13 (stack effects are a fuzzy area when one thinks about functional-style programming... after all, which stack effects should one consider functional?) 15:30:49 * swalters gravely wishes the world had been built on a heavily standardized forth rather than C. 15:30:59 Hah. 15:31:07 Life would be so much better.... Processors would be more powerful too. 15:31:24 Running on PDP8 clones made by space mutants. 15:31:36 try_pratchet, ping... you've got answers 15:31:59 I don't think Forth is good for everything. 15:32:24 when the next apocalypse rolls up, and everybody's C compilers get destroyed, FORTH will prevail! ;) 15:32:43 It's all in the book, right? 15:32:50 * tathi thinks that it would be pretty tricky to build a superscalar stack chip though. 15:33:04 "superscalar"? 15:33:14 pretty hard to build any superscalar chip, in fairness ;) 15:33:19 *LOL* Not if it were done right. C's main advantage was that it had a certain abstraction from the machine. That would not be hard to accomplish with forth. You would just have to abstract out a lot of little things. 15:33:36 Robert: modern processors run more than one instruction at once. 15:34:08 you can unpack the stack in the same way that modern procs reorder register accesses, anyway 15:34:09 tathi, actually, I read somewhere that stack machines with 4+ stacks can be parrallelized as easily as register machines. 15:34:15 tathi: Yes. But is that really the only/best approach to speed at the expense of more transistors? 15:34:46 would be interesting to study 'typical' computer algorithms with respect to parallelism 15:34:46 I have to run, but look up the language fourstack. Working with four stacks is not as hard as people seem to think it would be. 15:34:56 it just seems like, with Forth, generally EVERY operation depends on the results of the ones before. 15:35:01 infact, i wonder what C construct computers spend most of their CPU doing 15:35:31 tathi: for opcodes that are immediately next to each other, sure 15:35:55 tathi: Right, but how many applications need all X thousand MIPS to be fully serial? 15:36:03 but that opcode in 3-opcodes-time could probably be run now 15:36:22 though how you'd work that out i don't know 15:36:37 yeah, seems harder than with registers to me. 15:36:51 I admit I haven't really thought about it too much. 15:37:56 Robert: I'm just thinking that multiprocessor systems would probably be more prevalent if everything was Forth. 15:38:04 well, you can map the stack to registers 15:38:14 * Robert would like to play with a highly parallel machine. 15:38:27 modern superscalar procs tend to map the 'virtual' user-visible registers to vast nests of logic beneath 15:39:06 Scary. 15:39:31 yeah, how they work at all is completely beyond me 15:39:50 bah, it's not all that complicated in theory. 15:39:53 i recall a lecturer describing the clock-skew problems on modern procs 15:40:18 I was thinking about how much (parallel) power you could get for say $5k with today's tech... 15:40:26 gone are the days of your system clock on one side of the chip being off by a few degrees, now you find the clock signal has arrived 5-cycles-late ;) 15:40:46 yeah, crazy. 15:40:56 Hah. 15:41:21 That sounds truly evil 15:41:24 with levels of integration such that a chip with tracks and gates comparable to streets and houses would cover the entire surface of the planet 15:41:59 heh, imagine, the die-photomasks they use must be like a street-level aerial photo of the planet 15:42:07 no wonder they're expensive ;) 15:43:11 Doesn't the jargon file mention VLSI design in the "Deep Magic" entry? 15:43:18 We need a chip fabrication plant that caters to hobbyists. :) 15:43:23 (if such a thing is possible) 15:43:35 chip fabrication is an extreme business, heh 15:44:06 in the region of 50 independent steps, each involving nasty chemicals, cleanrooms and micron-alignment 15:44:14 Hehe. 15:44:24 How about retro techs? 15:44:31 Or low-end 15:44:38 yeah, I started looking it up the one time. 15:44:44 i did wonder about making my own transistor or something, would have been fun 15:44:58 it must blatantly be possible to homebrew a chip which at least does something ;) 15:44:58 * tathi agrees with Robert though, I'd be happy with fairly old tech. 15:45:26 of course, FPGAs have revolutionised things 15:45:54 you can make yourself a completely generic proc with over 10% the performance of the latest ridiculously-engineered chips with very little effort 15:45:57 which is pretty staggering 15:46:01 yeah. 15:46:12 they come in such high pin-count packages though. 15:46:26 a dev board appears the only really practical solution 15:46:36 apparently xilinx do some for $60, i'm very tempted 15:46:54 yeah, just seems like a waste though. 15:47:11 I gather running pins out is a fairly expensive operation. 15:47:19 ah, i see 15:47:33 yeah, but i guess that's what people use them for 15:47:43 guess so. 15:47:55 little point implementing processors etc when you can just buy them, and use the FPGA for all the awkward glue logic and bus interfacing 15:49:34 but i loved somebody's idea of making a computer out of a number of generic dataflow stack processors 15:49:47 wich each proc directly wired to peripheral ports 15:50:03 so you could just make a spare proc become an IDE controller, for example 15:50:21 and then even make it understand the filesystem, if there is any spare capacity 15:50:31 :) 15:51:18 would be highly cool though, bus-addressable files ;) 16:11:04 --- quit: Topaz (Remote closed the connection) 16:38:58 --- join: segher (~segher@p0122.nas1-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl) joined #forth 16:39:05 Hi 16:39:56 hija 16:40:15 Hoe gaat het, late night forther? 16:40:35 altijd laat -- everything's fine 16:40:48 almost finished my new engine :-) 16:41:01 What kind? 16:41:31 just a bog standard indirect threaded code thing 16:41:49 but its base dictionary is position independent 16:42:07 and it is cross-compilable by any ANS Forth standard Forth system 16:42:30 so i'm quite happy about it :-) 16:42:36 Sounds nice. What will you use it for? 16:46:55 --- join: segher_ (~segher@p0162.nas3-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl) joined #forth 16:47:12 b0rk. broken dialup. sigh. 16:51:28 :/ 16:51:40 brb 16:52:16 --- quit: Robert ("My brain is getting as small as a Forth") 17:07:36 --- quit: segher (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 17:07:45 --- nick: segher_ -> segher 17:12:08 --- nick: try_pratchet -> color_magic 17:19:34 bye all 17:19:46 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 17:39:16 --- join: segher_ (~segher@p0229.nas4-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl) joined #forth 17:42:51 --- join: YoyoFreeBSD (~yoyo@222.90.3.239) joined #forth 18:02:08 --- quit: segher (Connection timed out) 18:12:28 --- join: Sonarman_ (matt@adsl-64-160-164-150.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 18:12:29 --- quit: Sonarman (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:13:26 --- nick: Sonarman_ -> Sonarman 18:34:31 --- nick: segher_ -> segher 18:53:04 --- quit: tathi ("laters, all") 19:13:40 --- quit: color_magic (Remote closed the connection) 19:30:49 --- join: segher_ (~segher@p0088.nas1-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl) joined #forth 19:34:23 --- join: sk1p_ (alex@pD95D3836.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 19:48:19 --- quit: segher (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:48:31 --- quit: YoyoFreeBSD (Remote closed the connection) 19:48:44 --- quit: sk1p (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:01:10 --- join: YoyoFreeBSD__ (~yoyo@222.90.3.239) joined #forth 20:03:21 --- nick: YoyoFreeBSD__ -> YoyoFreeBSD_ 20:48:53 --- quit: Sonarman ("leaving") 21:29:12 --- quit: segher_ ("Leaving") 21:56:33 --- join: aum_ (~aum@60-234-138-239.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) joined #forth 22:13:40 --- nick: aum_ -> aum 22:14:41 --- quit: aum () 22:15:03 --- join: aum (~aum@60-234-138-239.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.04.03