00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.03.18
00:48:20 --- log: started forth/05.03.18
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00:48:20 --- topic: 'Forth: One language, many dialects.  #forth - general forth discussion.  #c4th - ColorForth.   #retro - RetroForth.  #c4th-ot - social channel.  #1xforth - a secret channel for 1x forthers.  #concatenative - the category of language that forth belongs to (sorta).'
00:48:20 --- topic: set by thinfu on [Sun Feb 13 21:19:07 2005]
00:48:20 --- names: list (clog arke hyrax djo Quartus saon Frek swalters @crc ooo warpzero cmeme SeaForth Fractal skylan ccfg yumehito onetom ianp)
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01:51:19 <ecraven> good morning :)
01:54:29 <Azure_Ag> Good morning, gentle creature.
02:06:02 <ecraven> sorry about this question :) does forth have closures? [i'm just wondering on how to implement closures on a stack machine..]
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02:58:43 <ecraven> can anyone tell me where to find a manual or specs for Moore's i21?
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04:36:57 <arke> ecraven: ultratechnology.com somewhere  maybe
05:05:07 <ecraven> arke: thanks
05:05:23 <ecraven> what are the advantages of multiple stacks, apart from easier implementation?
05:06:15 <arke> speed
05:06:17 <arke> elegance
05:06:18 <arke> :)
05:06:24 <ecraven> why speedL
05:06:29 <ecraven> s/L/?/
05:07:07 <arke> because you don't have to do something with the return address while you work on the stack.
05:07:44 <arke> And also, what if a word calls another word to work on one of its arguments? It wouldnt know if there was another return address or not.
05:09:17 <ecraven> hm.. i think i start to see why it might be a good idea.. seems like i have to learn basic forth to actually understand stack machines
05:09:49 <ecraven> any good introductions / suggestions? running under debian
05:10:15 <arke> hrm, theres many good articles
05:10:54 <arke> http://robos.org/links.html
05:10:58 <arke> theres a few
05:11:17 <arke> I can help you more later, but I have to finish 1000 word essay in less than an hour...
05:15:54 <ecraven> no hurry, i'm reading stuff about stack machines :) lots of pages left
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07:35:54 <Quartus> Hey.
07:36:25 <ecraven> hey
07:50:26 <I440r_> ecraven did you see my pm ?
07:51:17 <ecraven> yes :)
08:01:28 <ecraven> hm.. i think i start to understand.. man, it seems stack machines do have a good point..
08:03:05 <ecraven> is there a graphical system with debugger editor etc. for forth under linux (debian) that i can play around with?
08:03:22 <ecraven> scrap the graphical part..
08:03:47 <Topaz> debian has pforth and gforth
08:04:03 <Topaz> (pforth being a light pure-C FORTH, gforth being a huge monster which does everything ;)
08:05:13 <ecraven> any of those integrated with emacs?
08:31:58 <ecraven> what does the word VARIABLE do?
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08:45:56 <Topaz> variable adds a new word to the dictionary which returns (puts on the stack) the current-dictionary-location when run
08:45:56 <Topaz> iirc
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08:47:11 <Topaz> and allocates a int for it, maybe, can't remember ;)
08:54:50 <I440r_> : variable create cell allot ;
08:55:04 <I440r_> if your limp wristed and dont know your cell size that is
08:55:30 <I440r_> these days thats usually : variable create 4 allot ;  or better.... : variable create 0 , ;   <--- 
08:55:48 <I440r_> all work (assuming cell = 4 bytes)
08:56:05 <I440r_> but the last is better because it pre-initializes all variables to zero when they are created
08:57:24 <ASau> I'm used to : variable <builds , does> ;
08:57:27 <ecraven> what does CREATE and , do? :) sorry, i really don't know much..
08:57:44 <ASau> In this case you  can't forget to initialize it.
08:57:54 <I440r_> create creates a new word of a given name 
08:58:06 <I440r_> and comma compiles one cells worth of data
08:58:11 <I440r_> so 0 , compiles the zero
08:58:54 <I440r_> i actually think the 79 standard variable is better. it (like constant) required its initial value to be specified
08:59:01 <I440r_> : variable create , ;
08:59:12 <I440r_> so you would do 10 variable blah
08:59:20 <I440r_> and blah would be pre-initialized to 10
08:59:49 <I440r_> <builds is basicall create right ?
08:59:54 <ASau> Yes.
09:00:12 <I440r_> making variable a does word like that is inefficient however
09:00:31 <ASau> It's not dones so.
09:00:35 <I440r_> because its does>ing exit
09:00:45 <ASau> ...done...
09:00:58 <I440r_> it IS done, but it does nothing
09:01:04 <I440r_> does> does this
09:01:33 <ASau> Actually, it's defined like this:
09:01:36 <I440r_> first call ;code which immediatly patches the most recently created words cfa (the variable) 
09:01:49 <I440r_> to be a call to "here"
09:01:58 <I440r_> it then compiles a call to dodoes AT here
09:02:10 <ASau> : variable create , ;code ( machine code follows )
09:02:12 <I440r_> the ; then compiles an exit
09:02:26 <I440r_> ;code doesnt work like that that ive seen
09:02:44 <I440r_> oh. yes it does sorry
09:03:19 <I440r_> it patches the cfa of the most recently created word to call the address of ( machine code follows )
09:03:38 <I440r_> but it doesnt switch the assembler into context 
09:04:17 <I440r_> a better variable would be : variable create ; noop ;
09:04:25 <I440r_> errr
09:04:26 <ASau> You may redefine it to make it switch to the assembler.
09:04:31 <I440r_> : create , ;uses noop ;
09:04:40 <I440r_> assuming not cachint top of stack :)
09:06:55 <I440r_> i would rename ;code to (;code) and then define ;code as : ;code (;code) assembler ;
09:06:57 <I440r_> or something
09:07:35 <I440r_> erm no that would need to be immediate
09:08:04 <ecraven> how fast is preemptive multi-tasking on stack machines? how much of a performance penalty is saving the stacks in reality?
09:08:44 <ASau> Hm.
09:09:09 <ASau> Switching task should be faster.
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09:09:56 <ASau> It looks you have 3-5 times less registers to save.
09:10:06 <ecraven> compared to what?
09:10:33 <ASau> Dobry vecer, TheBlueWizard!
09:11:08 <ASau> Compare to x86, CISC, and RISC.
09:11:25 <TheBlueWizard> hiya ASau :)
09:12:08 <ASau> What do you have to save: IP, SP, RP, W. 4 registers.
09:12:26 <ASau> Approximately.
09:12:35 <ecraven> ASau: but i would have guessed you'd have several hundred bytes of stack at least..
09:12:51 <ecraven> but that's judging by my experience with scheme, not with any real stack machine
09:13:07 <ASau> You just load SP with another value.
09:13:13 <ASau> Other registers too.
09:13:35 <ASau> You save and load all the registers needed.
09:16:27 <I440r_> what is w ?
09:16:32 <I440r_> i never understood that
09:16:42 <I440r_> isnt that only used in indirect threaded ?
09:19:07 <ASau> I should have added "if any".
09:19:34 <ASau> It may be TOS cached.
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10:02:22 <Dazhbog> hello
10:02:37 <docl> hi
10:03:28 <Dazhbog> I have just found forth but it felt very compelling since I used to program in assembler a lot
10:04:12 <Dazhbog> and the idea of having possibility of high level abstraction and low level control sounds too good to be true ;)
10:04:16 <docl> yeah it's really cool I think :)
10:04:32 <TheBlueWizard> hehe...it's compelling, since you can easily interface to hardware using Forth
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10:04:50 <docl> http://forthology.com/index.php?wiki=LinuxSockets  <-- what I'm working on lately
10:04:50 <Dazhbog> however.. there are some bumps on the road
10:05:22 <TheBlueWizard> usually one would be correct to be wary of something that sounds too good, but in this case, I can say Forth is indeed good for such type
10:05:32 <Dazhbog> =)
10:06:22 <Dazhbog> what would you say.. how much faster are native compiled forths compared to say gforth?
10:07:11 <docl> I use RetroForth under Linux
10:07:56 <docl> don't know how it measures speed-wise, but the code is pretty compact so I'm guessing it's pretty fast
10:08:08 <Dazhbog> okay
10:08:19 <docl> http://retro.tunes.org/
10:08:26 <Dazhbog> what about retroforths C-interface?
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10:08:47 <TheBlueWizard> Dazhbog: depending on how it is compiled (to machine code as opposed to threaded whatever), it can get faster
10:09:04 <TheBlueWizard> but the threaded stuff is pretty fast anyway
10:09:23 <docl> RF is pretty much straight assembler
10:10:11 <Dazhbog> does RF take advantage of instruction sets of later CPUs?
10:10:28 <Dazhbog> or other features/abilities like pipeline -optimization?
10:11:10 <Dazhbog> I'm interested in speed and efficiency because I think it's a reachable goal with forth =)
10:11:50 <docl> yeah, not sure how optimized rf is or anything like that, but I do know it's clean, stable code
10:11:59 <Dazhbog> yup
10:12:00 <TheBlueWizard> Dazhbog: one advantage of Forth is its extensibility, so if a new processor comes with extra bells-n-whistles, then just code some Forth words to use them and tere you go.  Of course global scoped compiling into machine code may be an issue, depending on the implementation
10:12:14 <TheBlueWizard> there*
10:12:19 * Dazhbog nods.
10:12:31 <Dazhbog> hmm been playing muds too much lately
10:12:43 <docl> hehe want to write one?
10:12:57 <Dazhbog> I found a nice example how to use C-libraries and callbacks with gforth.. is there anything like that for RF?
10:13:08 <docl> http://forthology.com/
10:13:08 <Dazhbog> docl, well I have started several times :P
10:13:16 <docl> that's the place
10:13:31 <docl> http://forthology.com/index.php?wiki=forthmud.f
10:14:03 <Dazhbog> docl, cool :-o
10:14:53 <docl> I mostly just did the pretty-printing of it, thinfu and crc did most of the code writing
10:15:26 <docl> I'm a newbie at forth.  I just want to make a mud in a minimal enough language I can know what I'm actually doing.
10:16:26 <docl> also, join #forthmud if you want to participate :)
10:16:59 <Dazhbog> that would be an interesting project ;)
10:17:26 <Dazhbog> I'm very much a newbie though.. started reading forth tutorials and "Thinking forth" like two days ago
10:17:48 <docl> well don't let that stop ya, it didn't stop me :)
10:17:57 <Dazhbog> I'm on a language crusade ;)
10:18:07 <docl> thinfu has been meaning to write a forthmud since 2001
10:18:16 <docl> forthmud.sourceforge.net
10:18:28 <docl> I finally got him going on it about a week ago
10:18:43 <Serg[GPRS]> wow, u on rite way - "Thinking forth" is a bomb !
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10:19:28 <Dazhbog> at least I'm doing something right ;)
10:20:00 <Dazhbog> I started with assembler in -96.. did lots of stuff for fun and living with asm.. for years
10:20:28 <Dazhbog> then people convinced me to take a look at these "high level languages"
10:20:59 <docl> hehe
10:21:00 <Dazhbog> but I found C/C++, java way too restricting
10:21:14 <Dazhbog> tried like dozen languages since that
10:21:19 <docl> forth is both high and low.  if you need high level, try scheme :P
10:21:33 <Frek> objc is quite nice.
10:21:38 <Dazhbog> yup I found lisp just before forth
10:21:52 <docl> that's what happened to me too
10:22:03 <Dazhbog> and when I found it I realized that it had been macros/metaprogamming I had been searching for
10:22:56 <docl> I think people go to scheme looking for something you only really get from forth
10:23:02 <Dazhbog> then I thought that.. maybe.. somewhere.. there is a language that lets me do all I could with assembler (there were no types, it was me who could decide how to handle the bytes)
10:23:20 <docl> the ability to talk in computer language
10:23:30 <Serg[GPRS]> hehe, bytes ?
10:23:34 <Dazhbog> but still lets me do higher level abstractions without restricting me to certain statements and syntax
10:24:13 <Frek> why is it that some can't accept they may have to reorganize their thoughts to adept to a certain language 
10:24:26 <Dazhbog> Serg[GPRS], well I tried to say that asm didn't care if I used a byte as a word or dword
10:24:32 <Dazhbog> or data or code
10:24:33 <Serg[GPRS]> how can i write MOV AX, (byte -1, byte 1)
10:24:35 <Dazhbog> or pointer or value
10:25:05 <Serg[GPRS]> err-prone style
10:25:06 <Dazhbog> Serg[GPRS], um... tell me what's it supposed to do and I'll tell you =)
10:25:56 <Dazhbog> of course it's error prone.. it's dancing on the edge of a blade.. but I was in control =)
10:26:05 <docl> one reason I'm studying RetroForth is I am learning assembley at the same time
10:26:34 <Dazhbog> anyway.. that's how forth seems to think too.. there is a cell on a stack and you got to decide how to use it
10:27:30 <Dazhbog> nobody is going to yell you about types and casts
10:28:14 <Dazhbog> maybe I'm mistaken but it seems to me like the same kind of freedom you got with asms
10:29:03 <Serg[GPRS]> i seen an article how to add type control to Forth if one needs it
10:29:23 <docl> you can put inline asm if you need to in forth
10:29:25 <TheBlueWizard> Dazhbog: almost every language has its pluses (read freedom if you like) and minuses
10:29:28 <Dazhbog> yup.. I heard there have been attempts.. like strongforth
10:29:55 <Dazhbog> TheBlueWizard, yes there are always tradeoffs.. 
10:30:17 <Serg[GPRS]> just define extra stack holding type tags, and alias all operations to type-controlling ones
10:30:18 <Dazhbog> TheBlueWizard, but I don't think strong/static typechecking is for me
10:31:29 <Dazhbog> typechecking gives false feeling of security and robustness.. it's still always only through testing the real bugs are found
10:31:37 * TheBlueWizard nods and notes there are a lot of languages which aren't strongly typed
10:32:42 * TheBlueWizard is comfy with reasonably strongly typed languages (but is not comfy with "fascist" typed languages, like (classic) Pascal for example ;)
10:32:52 <Dazhbog> heh
10:33:37 <docl> the only way to prevent bugs is to understand the process
10:33:37 <Serg[GPRS]> i wrote alot in Bugland TP and feels OK of it
10:34:13 <Serg[GPRS]> and the only way to understand is to factor and reduce bulk
10:34:28 <docl> yup
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10:36:40 <Dazhbog> anyway.. excuse me for repeating myself but.. is there any documentation about interfacing C libraries / doing callbacks in RF or some other compiled forth
10:37:02 <ASau> Yeah!
10:37:06 <ASau> I've done it!
10:37:22 <TheBlueWizard> hmm?
10:37:32 <docl> I've done syscalls, they're not too hard once you get started.
10:37:41 <docl> not sure about using c libraries though.
10:37:52 <ASau> I've refactored old legacy string handling in my interpreter.
10:37:53 <Dazhbog> some people think forth way would be to write the libs myself.. but I fear I won't live long enough.. :P
10:38:19 <ASau> Dazhbog, that's why we meet here.
10:38:21 <docl> what kinds of libs do you need?
10:38:37 <docl> you might be surprised, it could be a 15-minute job
10:38:38 <ASau> Feel free to borrow any code you wish.
10:38:44 <Dazhbog> well I would be interested in gtk and sdl
10:38:56 <docl> where's your code ASau?
10:39:18 <ASau> BTW, I'll update my RNGs.
10:39:27 <ASau> I've advances there.
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10:40:06 <Dazhbog> I'm under the impression that gtk may be a bit nasty with the callbacks.. sdl should be more straightforward
10:40:22 <docl> oh yeah, dev corner on retroforth site
10:40:24 <ASau> I also plan to release some useful stuff.
10:40:46 <ASau> Dazhbog, I've seen SDL bindings somewhere on the net.
10:42:05 <ASau> That means, there's someone who's done or did these things.
10:42:11 <Dazhbog> =)
10:44:31 <Dazhbog> ASau, um what's that c-forth thing?
10:44:41 <Dazhbog> (sounds promising ;)
10:45:41 <docl> looks like a forth implementation
10:46:09 <Dazhbog> ah I thought it might be a bridge between c and forth =)
10:46:09 <ASau> Do you mean Alan Pratt's c-forth?
10:46:33 <ASau> That's FIG Forth written in lex+c.
10:46:40 <Dazhbog> I see
10:46:50 <ASau> I've patched it once to make it build on Linux.
10:47:32 <ASau> It's interesting for its compiler.
10:48:03 <ASau> It translates almost Forth into threaded image file.
10:48:44 <ASau> Latter is loaded and you've FIG Forth there.
10:50:35 <Dazhbog> maybe I'll stop fooling around and start banging my head against RF
10:50:53 <Dazhbog> that way I'm bound to learn something
10:50:59 <docl> yea do it
10:51:05 <docl> start with forthmud
10:51:16 <docl> :P
10:51:45 <ASau> I sometimes think about writing several articles about UNIX
10:51:45 <ASau> *** for forthers.
10:51:54 <ASau> Hmm.
10:52:26 <docl> if you get a segmentation fault with forthmud.f from the wiki, it's because it needs a newline at the end
10:52:43 <ASau> Those three asterics were auto-magically generated, I've switched them off now.
10:52:57 <ASau> At least, it should work like this.
10:53:26 <Dazhbog> ASau, profanity filter? :-P
10:54:16 <ASau> I'me made global automatic fill for 64 columns per line.
10:55:15 <Dazhbog> so.. UNIX for forthers?
10:55:19 <Dazhbog> and forth for unixers
10:55:20 <ASau> ERC has broken long line at 64 characters border and inserted asterisks to show what he's done.
10:55:32 <ASau> You've got the clue.
10:55:35 <Dazhbog> emacs irc?
10:55:42 <ASau> Yes.
10:56:06 <Dazhbog> hmm gotta try out that too 
10:56:48 <Dazhbog> hmm wonder if gnus is usable
10:57:01 <ASau> Pretty well.
10:57:23 <Dazhbog> integrating email and irc with emacs might save me from jumping around workspaces and maybe even some memory
10:57:38 <ASau> GNUS works the same way on NT and UNIX.
10:57:47 <ASau> Like EMACS.
10:57:52 <Dazhbog> but it might also interrupt my coding sessions :P
10:57:55 <ASau> Well, almost the same.
10:58:42 <ASau> When Emacs relies on external things, like RCS or w3m, it's better done within UNIX.
10:59:32 <ASau> I use Emacs/evilwm/Xorg/FreeLSD here.
11:00:12 <ASau> Nice stack :)
11:03:59 <Dazhbog> afterstep/xfree/debian sid here
11:04:30 <Dazhbog> ASau, have you tried ion?
11:04:33 <ASau> My stack is higher than yours :)
11:04:37 <ASau> No.
11:04:51 <ASau> It'd require mouse, IIRC.
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11:05:19 <Dazhbog> hmm it shouldn't :P
11:05:59 <Dazhbog> only if you use mouse-only programs
11:06:11 <ASau> I don't use such programs.
11:07:09 <ASau> It looks that moused died some day in past.
11:07:27 <ASau> At least I can't grep it in ps list.
11:07:54 <ASau> Though it should be loaded at startup.
11:08:23 <Dazhbog> heh
11:08:39 <Dazhbog> rodent is evil
11:09:02 <Dazhbog> strains hand, slows workflow
11:14:29 <Dazhbog> okay.. rearranging stuff so gotta log off
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11:14:56 <Dazhbog> brb, bye
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12:37:44 <SeaForth> [ANN]: 2005 IORCC Sponsorship Prizes worth over 750 USD MSRP.  >>>  http://iorcc.dyndns.org <<<
12:38:25 <arke> teh hies
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14:23:45 <crc> hi all
14:31:03 <arke> teh hies
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14:42:42 <Baughn> Off-topic, but I figured you might know - is there such a thing as a guide to writing an x86 assembler anywhere?
14:43:20 <arke> Baughn: not really, do you mean forth syntax or "real" syntax?
14:43:34 <Baughn> arke: Binary syntax
14:43:42 <arke> Baughn: ?
14:43:43 <Baughn> arke: A parser, I can write.
14:44:02 <arke> Baughn: so you mean live "mov eax, 2" as opposed to 2 #, EAX MOV,
14:44:31 <Baughn> arke: No, I mean how to translate "mov eax, 2" (or whatever) into 0xefed (or whatever).
14:46:07 <crc> the intel docs cover the encodings
14:46:19 <Baughn> I've looked at the platform docs, of course, but they're fairly impenetrable. I was hoping there was something simpler. >_<
14:46:28 <arke> Ooh, I've got something, one momemtn
14:46:45 <arke> http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/7052/opcode.txt
14:46:46 <arke> there
14:47:50 <Baughn> Nice, that'll give me something to start with.
14:47:53 <Baughn> Thanks!
14:48:00 <arke> No Problem :)
14:48:43 * Baughn really hopes they'll give him extra credit for this.
14:48:55 <Baughn> Well, maybe it'll just explode their brains. We'll see.
14:49:20 <arke> tis a neat article
14:49:26 <arke> it basically gives you all you need to know
14:49:42 <Baughn> The 8086, at least, was reasonable.
14:49:53 <Baughn> It's the umpteen layers of patches that got me confused.
14:50:49 <arke> It still kinda follows a pattern though
14:51:59 <Baughn> It's almost admirable.
14:52:15 <Baughn> They're trying to outdo Escher, and really succeeding.
14:53:07 <arke> :P
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15:34:16 <mrbean> does anyone know where i can find speuler alias forthfreak ?
15:34:51 <crc> he goes by zoly here 
15:35:01 <mrbean> ah ..
15:35:43 <mrbean> ok
15:35:59 <mrbean> found him via gaim.
15:36:09 <mrbean> thanx and bye
15:42:01 <ecraven> do people use emacs to program forth?
15:42:19 <crc> no
15:42:31 <crc> well, some probably do....
15:42:35 <ecraven> what editor then?
15:42:53 <crc> I use block editors
15:43:06 <ecraven> what's a block editor?
15:43:35 <mrbean> crc ?
15:43:43 <crc> a block editor edits blocks of 8 or 16 lines, 64 chars per line
15:44:44 <ecraven> why is that a good way to edit forth?
15:44:51 <Baughn> Well, of *course* we use Emacs. IRC, Usenet, Forth... those three really belong in the same application, when you think about it.
15:45:09 <mrbean> zoly is away or i have forgotten how to use irc 
15:45:10 <crc> I can do IRC from within forth
15:45:24 <crc> zoly isn't here right now...
15:45:26 <hyrax> http://www.jimbrooks.org/web/forth/emacs_gforth.php
15:45:42 <mrbean> ok
15:45:46 <mrbean> thanx again
15:46:01 <ecraven> hyrax: thanks!
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15:46:22 <crc> I like blocks because they provide a way to easily group related words and encourage factoring
15:46:24 <ecraven> Baughn: erc gnus forth-mode?
15:46:36 <Baughn> ecraven: Erc gnus Slime.
15:46:40 <Baughn> ecraven: Don't ask.
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15:48:31 <ecraven> Baughn: don't ask?? you use slime for forth??
15:48:45 <Baughn> ecraven: I learned Forth by implementing it.
15:49:08 <Baughn> ecraven: Which is why my "compiler" is a set of Lisp macros.
15:50:46 <Baughn> I told him not to ask; why do they never *listen*? Foolish young one - pity about his brain.
15:51:56 <ecraven> Baughn: hm.. could you point me to the simplest forth compiler (in forth or lisp/scheme) that you know? with source i can read..
15:52:52 <Baughn> ecraven: Sorry. My own is part of a study-class OS project, and very NDA-ed.
15:53:24 <crc> you can look at retroforth's code, it's a small forth...
15:53:25 <Baughn> Probably some others can, though. The implementor/user ratio around here seems to be above 1.
15:53:29 <ecraven> oh, no problem, i was just generally interested
15:53:36 <ecraven> crc: thanks
15:54:23 <crc> http://www.retroforth.org/release for the stable version, http://retro.tunes.org for the 8.0 version (seems stable, but less documentation, and still in testing)
15:58:15 <ecraven> what is the native version? what architecture?
15:59:35 <crc> x86, standalone
16:00:26 <ecraven> wow..
16:01:31 <ecraven> hm.. what should happen if i run ./rf? 
16:02:12 <crc> 7.6 should come up to the interpreter
16:02:19 <crc> no welcome message, or anything
16:02:23 <crc> 8.0 has a welcome message
16:03:07 <ecraven> ah, works :) thanks.. i was confused as nothing showed..
16:03:14 <crc> ahh
16:03:33 <crc> retroforth is normally silent, except on errors 
16:03:56 <ecraven> good thing, if you know it :)
16:04:06 <ecraven> how do i quit forth :) any word to finish it?
16:04:23 <crc> bye
16:05:02 <ecraven> ah, the obvious.. i tried quit and exit :)
16:05:14 <crc> :)
16:06:11 <ecraven> is there some sort of standard that most forths implement? some sort of set of words that are the same?
16:06:47 <crc> the basic words like   : ; swap drop dup over tuck nip rot bye emit key ." . 
16:06:56 <crc> a lot of words are common across all forths
16:07:14 <ecraven> so for starting out it doesn't really matter which i choose?
16:07:22 <crc> not really
16:07:43 <crc> many tutorials are geared towards ans compliant forths like gforth though
16:08:36 <ecraven> ok, got gforth here on debian
16:09:29 <crc> I use retroforth most of the time, and occasionally gforth or isforth
16:09:46 <crc> (normally I only use gforth or isforth when porting code to retroforth)
16:10:39 <ecraven> what block editor do you use?
16:11:49 <crc> the one I wrote (red)
16:11:59 <crc> it's built into retroforth 8.0
16:12:36 <crc> http://www.forthfreak.net/index.cgi?RetroEditor
16:12:52 <crc> that has some information about it, and a copy that runs on gForth
16:13:47 <ecraven> any reason not to use rf 8.0 but rather the stable version?
16:13:53 <ecraven> for learning forth that is
16:14:00 <crc> no
16:14:27 <crc> 8.0 is actually more stable than 7.6 is at this point
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16:19:40 <ecraven> crc: so i should read core.*?
16:20:01 <crc> yes
16:20:48 <crc> rf.asm defines a few I/O words (key, emit, type) and jumps into the core
16:21:13 <crc> core.asm is the basic compiler, core.f is the code that defines the retroforth language
16:21:28 <crc> core.dict is a list of everything defined in core.asm and rf.asm
16:37:31 <crc> goodnight
16:43:37 <ecraven> good night, and thanks
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17:40:44 <ecraven> thanks for all the interesting help :) good night everybody
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20:41:54 <sproingie> question ... is there a forth equivalent of a basic stamp?
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20:43:07 <arke> sproingie: probably is, but I couldnt tell you where to findi it :)
20:44:15 <sproingie> ok another toughie ... anyone know where to find strongforth?
20:45:17 <arke> err
20:45:24 <arke> search comp.lang.forth, tis mentioned there occasioanly
20:47:15 <sproingie> have tried googling it
20:47:33 <sproingie> just some t-mobile homepage that's gone.  wayback machine has the page, but not the download
20:55:03 <Sonarman> sproingie: at http://www.mpeltd.demon.co.uk they might have something similar to a basic stamp
20:55:50 <arke> :(
21:10:39 <sproingie> Sonarman: ooh, that looks nice.  decent price too.
21:10:49 <sproingie> and full of ARM architecture goodness
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