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06:13:01 <qFox> anyone here from .ro?
06:13:06 <qFox> or that speaks ro...
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07:33:47 <Quartus> What's the news of the world, I440r_?
08:21:35 <I440r_> not much, at work
08:27:33 <Topaz> hmm, how much of the working day do you reckon an average coder spends actually coding?
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09:18:51 <Serg[GPRS]> hi !
09:19:31 <Serg[GPRS]> i tryed asm coding and was badly discouraged by a single stack - i used to Forth's double ones
09:19:45 <Quartus> Easy solution -- set up a second one.
09:20:09 <Serg[GPRS]> what kind of macro / registers usage scheme willu advice, for i386 ?
09:21:02 <Quartus> I don't do a lot of i386.  If I had to I'd check out the sources to a decent i386 Forth and see what they use.
09:22:14 * Serg[GPRS] BADLY regrets about lack of auto-increment mode in x86, like it was in PDP-11 ;(
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09:27:57 <Serg[GPRS]> what usage u advice for hardw. syack - data or return one ?
09:28:10 <Serg[GPRS]> s/syack/stack
09:38:41 <Herkamire> I assume the data stack gets used more
09:39:14 <Herkamire> of course both in hardware would be best
09:40:16 <Serg[GPRS]> hehe ;)) so XCHG BP,SP around CALL / RET ?
09:40:40 <Herkamire> sorry, I don't know x86 asm at all
09:40:55 <Topaz> i'm still not sure how to implement my stack-unfolding into registers
09:41:15 <Topaz> but it's not exactly vital
09:47:15 <Serg[GPRS]> or do indirect CALL procedure ? like MOV AX, ADDR / CALL MYCALL ?
10:01:46 <Herkamire> doesn't x86 have a CALL word that pushes a stack in memory?
10:03:32 <Serg[GPRS]> ?????
10:04:01 <Serg[GPRS]> CALL pushes return address only, butt i need it pushed/popped separately from data
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12:23:35 <zol1> g'day
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13:24:50 <zol1> wb
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13:49:16 <manas> can anyone please suggest a good free forth for microcontrollers, or any forth for uC for that matter
13:51:48 <zol1> hmm... not "the" Forth for any possible controller you could think of
13:53:30 <manas> any forth for that matter ?
14:01:50 <zol1> had a look here: http://wiki.forthfreak.net/index.cgi?ForthSystems ?
14:02:44 <manas> looking now.
14:03:58 <manas> nothing
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16:39:40 <docl> hey, I'm trying to configure pfe to use tcp sockets.  what's the easiest way?  I found an interface on taygeta, but I'm not sure how to apply it.
16:40:30 <thinfu> is pfe dos?
16:40:33 <thinfu> or linux?
16:40:42 <docl> linux
16:41:04 <docl> actually it's several platforms, but I'm using linux
16:41:13 <docl> (portable forth environment)
16:42:11 <docl> there's a set of files at http://www.taygeta.com/networking/forthnet.html that is supposed to add TCP functionality to PFE, but I'm not sure how to install it.
16:42:54 <thinfu> do you really want to work with pfe?
16:43:04 <thinfu> cuz there's other forths with tcp sockets support..
16:44:28 <docl> which one's best in your opinion?
16:44:44 <docl> might be worth looking at them
16:45:37 <thinfu> well personally i like retroforth
16:45:42 <thinfu> i coded an irc client for it too
16:46:01 <thinfu> but i had to code the syscalls myself
16:46:20 <thinfu> it doesn't connect directly to the server, i use tcpclient which handles that
16:46:41 <thinfu> but i'll get it connected directly eventually
16:46:42 <docl> I guess I could look at that code and try to duplicate some of the functionality
16:46:49 <thinfu> what are you trying to do?
16:47:14 <docl> a primitive mud server
16:47:18 <thinfu> oooh
16:47:23 <thinfu> thats a goal of mine too
16:47:31 <thinfu> i was definitely going to do that in retroforth
16:47:45 <docl> you got any prototypes written yet?
16:47:54 <thinfu> nah i'm a really really lazy coder
16:47:57 <docl> I'm still kind of in the conceptualizing stage
16:48:03 <thinfu> http://forthmud.sourceforge.net
16:48:05 <thinfu> ah
16:48:10 <thinfu> well actually i have some really strong ideas
16:48:15 <thinfu> like dynamic room description generation
16:48:20 <thinfu> and coordinate based map
16:48:23 <docl> ya know, I looked at that :)
16:48:27 <thinfu> lol :D
16:48:33 <thinfu> thats my site there :P
16:48:48 <docl> I thought "hey, great ideas, wonder why he hasn't done anything yet?"
16:48:56 <thinfu> lol
16:48:59 <thinfu> i'm sorry! :P
16:49:05 <thinfu> yeah
16:49:06 <thinfu> damn
16:49:26 <thinfu> maybe if you start working on the mud i'll feel like i need to work on one too :P
16:49:30 <docl> hey, I'm the same way... got lotsa vapour-sites of my ideas
16:49:37 <thinfu> heh
16:49:39 <thinfu> yeah
16:49:45 <thinfu> you woulnd't be a forther otherwise ;)
16:50:08 <thinfu> maybe we could do some collaboration
16:50:08 <docl> well my most recent was supposed to be in scheme :P
16:50:14 <thinfu> ah :)
16:50:23 <docl> yeah, that'd be good
16:50:29 <thinfu> yeah actually my first encounter with forth was MUF in TinyMUCK
16:50:36 <thinfu> a scripting language for that mud
16:50:46 <thinfu> a friend and i were going to use tinymuck
16:50:53 <thinfu> but we felt constrained
16:51:09 <thinfu> because the scripting language wasn't that extensible and was slow, etc
16:51:20 <docl> I played on a MUCK once, and I think that's where I first heard of forth.
16:51:22 <thinfu> one of the main things we wanted was a mud that could be developed while online
16:52:07 <thinfu> i researched forth and then discovered its an elegant language and figure it would be really easy to code in while mudders are connected to it
16:52:07 <docl> yeah, that would rock
16:52:10 <thinfu> no need to reboot etc
16:52:19 <docl> seems like it would be
16:52:35 <thinfu> hmm
16:52:52 <thinfu> i've been meaning to figure out hte code to connect the irc client directly to the server
16:52:54 <docl> basically, just a forth that accepts TCP and restricts you if you don't know the password.
16:53:13 <thinfu> then i would be able to use that code for the mud server
16:53:41 <thinfu> actually, the forth could let anyone connect but you can restrict them to a vocabulary
16:53:47 <thinfu> like a mud vocabulary basically
16:53:51 <docl> right
16:54:03 <docl> forth words and mud words are pretty similar
16:54:09 <thinfu> yup thats what i thought too :)
16:54:16 <docl> in that they are all words :)
16:54:24 <thinfu> : n : north incrementxby1 ; 
16:54:27 <thinfu> ;)
16:54:44 <docl> yeah.  you could do lots of really powerful stuff in a forth mud
16:54:58 <thinfu> ah man it would be fucking sweet
16:55:07 <thinfu> lets do it heh
16:55:26 <docl> ok, where do we start?
16:56:28 <docl> I guess that tcp interface you used for the irc client would work
16:57:25 <thinfu> well some of the things to figure out 1) handling internet directly (syscalls etc)  2) handling multiusers (the select syscall i think)  3) database ?
16:57:53 <docl> well database is all gonna be words, representing objects
16:59:09 <thinfu> yeah thats what i was thinking too
17:00:14 <docl> however, indexing the mud objects with id numbers, moo style, might be a good idea
17:01:06 <thinfu> well the database is probably the last thing to worry about ultimately
17:01:32 <thinfu> if we can just get retroforth acting as a server and are able to connect to it thru telnet and start coding, that would be nice
17:01:33 <docl> right
17:01:46 <docl> that was my thought
17:02:02 <thinfu> join #forthmud
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19:26:17 <swalters> Does anyone here have any experience with z80 assembly?
19:28:24 <swalters> mainly I'm curious about dead-tree reference books and assemblers...
19:29:34 <thinfu> whats another name for z80
19:29:56 * thinfu is grepping his logs to find out who knows z80
19:29:57 <thinfu> heh
19:30:02 <thinfu> but z80 doesn't return anything
19:30:48 <thinfu> which is surprising..
19:30:49 <swalters> zilog z80 microprocessor and it has some relation to the intel 8080 (same proc?)
19:32:54 <thinfu> no luck..
19:34:18 <swalters> I'm finding stuff in #asm
19:35:07 <swalters> the z80's what ti puts in their fancy-pants calculators.  I'm considering writing a forth for the ti-calcs and for my ancient palm-IIIx
19:35:59 <Quartus> IIIx isn't z80, of course.  It'll run Quartus Forth, if you're interested.
19:36:34 <thinfu> trans wrote a forth for ti
19:36:44 <thinfu> and maybe arke or robert or mur too
19:37:23 <swalters> I'm not so much interested in having one as I am interested in implementing it on a couple of different platforms.
19:48:43 <Quartus> The lion's share of the work on the Palm is interfacing with the OS.
19:52:33 <Herkamire> what palms will quartusforth run on?
19:52:53 <Quartus> OS3 and up.  Theoretically it'll run on OS2, but OS2 has trouble with storage allocations, so I upped the baseline.
19:54:26 <Quartus> So that means everything from the Palm III up to the as-yet-unreleased Palm OS Cobalt (6.1).
19:54:46 <Quartus> The stand-alone apps it generates can run all the way back to Palm OS 1, if you code them appropriately.
19:54:48 <Herkamire> I've got a Palm V with os 3.3
19:54:59 <Herkamire> :) nice
19:55:42 <Quartus> Thanks.  I'm proud of it.
19:56:03 <Quartus> The V was a nice machine; style-wise, perhaps the nicest they ever made.
19:57:21 <Herkamire> yeah. it's cute. I rarely take it off the cradle though
19:57:39 <Quartus> I have a Vx here, not in active use.
19:57:45 <Herkamire> I mostly just use the calendar and BigClock
19:58:05 <Herkamire> I don't have much use for mobile computing
19:58:47 <Herkamire> I'd like something, but mostly as a toy
19:59:34 <Quartus> Forth is ideal for small screens.
20:09:57 <thinfu> i want a really small laptop
20:10:18 <thinfu> not just thin but width/horizontal
20:10:21 <thinfu> like 10" screen
20:10:32 <thinfu> and maybe a folding laptop like ibm's butterfly
20:10:36 <thinfu> er
20:10:38 <thinfu> folding keyboard
20:11:04 <thinfu> basically want the best of both worlds..  keyboard + portability
20:11:24 <Quartus> Trouble comes when you want to use it -- a folding computer with a keyboard means you need a flat surface for typing.
20:11:25 <thinfu> i find it ridiculous that they keep increasing the screen sizes of laptops
20:11:50 <thinfu> Quartus: no thats not what i meant
20:12:11 <thinfu> http://www-nrg.ee.lbl.gov/leres/butterfly/
20:12:32 <thinfu> the keyboard itself folds out of the laptop
20:12:46 <Herkamire> I had a folding keyboard and visor delouxe
20:12:49 <Herkamire> that was pretty small
20:12:50 <Quartus> I know -- I've owned one. But the computer itself folds, and has to be opened and put on a flat surface for use.
20:12:57 <Herkamire> pretty good keyboard too. targus thing
20:13:05 <Quartus> I had one of those.  Nice design on the folding keyboard.
20:13:08 <Herkamire> could walk around with basically a laptop in my pants pockets
20:13:11 <thinfu> ok
20:13:32 <thinfu> folding or not, i'd rather the keyboard and the display were attached together
20:13:43 <thinfu> or attacheable for storach
20:13:45 <thinfu> storage*
20:14:01 <Quartus> There's always a size sacrifice. Either the keyboard is really tiny, as on a Blackberry, or the devices gets too large to fit in a pocket.
20:14:22 <thinfu> basically give me the smallest package that comes with a keyboard and a decent sized screen and i'll be happy
20:14:31 <thinfu> i'm not even talking about pocket-sized at all
20:15:08 <thinfu> just saying that i'd be perfectly happy with a device that gives me a full sized keyboard and a 10" screen maybe in the smallest foot print possible
20:15:15 <Quartus> As soon as it doesn't fit in a pocket anymore, I start wanting things like a hard drive, which means greater drain on the battery, which means a larger size battery.
20:15:29 <thinfu> heh :)
20:15:45 <thinfu> yeah i'm talking about a device to replace my computers with
20:15:55 <thinfu> but portable enough to just throw in the backpack and walk out the door
20:16:02 <thinfu> and i mean "throw" ;)
20:16:04 <Quartus> And greater power consumption means greater heat, and greater heat dissipation issues.
20:16:09 <thinfu> not trying to fit it in the backpack like with a laptop :P
20:17:07 <Quartus> The laws of physics are not your friend when it comes to wanting horsepower in a small package.
20:17:19 <thinfu> i don't need much horsepower
20:17:29 <thinfu> my current comp is 350mhz
20:17:51 <thinfu> i upgraded recently from 133 mhz heh
20:18:21 <Quartus> Sony is making some very thin laptops these days, esp. for the Japanese market.
20:18:30 <thinfu> i don't care about thin tho
20:18:35 <thinfu> i'm more concerned about smaller dimensions
20:18:46 <thinfu> like ibm butterfly size
20:18:48 <thinfu> or smaller
20:21:52 <thinfu> hmm, i wonder what resolution would a person use on a 10" screen heh
20:24:48 <thinfu> ok i was looking around and i can use better words to describe what i want:  a subnotebook with fullsize keyboard ;)
20:32:09 <Herkamire> apple sells a very nice little laptop that is 11.2" x 9.1"x 1.35"
20:33:00 <Quartus> What's the model?
20:33:08 <Herkamire> ibook
20:33:20 <Herkamire> http://www.apple.com/ibook/specs.html
20:34:23 <Herkamire> the g5 laptop is a bit smaller
20:34:33 <Quartus> Looks nice.
20:34:53 <Herkamire> 10.9 x 8.6 x 1.18
20:35:17 <Herkamire> not much...
20:35:48 <Herkamire> 4.6lbs
20:36:34 <Herkamire> keys go right up to the edge on that :)
20:38:20 <Quartus> Fairly heavy. Large battery, I imagine.
20:39:10 <Herkamire> is 4.6 heavy?
20:39:29 <Quartus> Not in the grand scheme of things.
20:40:24 <thinfu> yes 4.6 is pushing it 
20:40:25 <thinfu> heh
20:41:50 <thinfu> hmm
20:42:57 <thinfu> interesting that the powerbook is slihglty smaller than the ibook
20:44:38 <thinfu> man the mini-itx/nano-itx is smart
20:45:00 <Herkamire> could be because of the metal casing instead of plastic :)
20:45:05 <thinfu> basically destructive innovation
20:45:43 <thinfu> like that described in the book "innovator's dilemma"
20:48:04 <thinfu> heh its ridiculous that there's computers/laptops being sold that have 1ghz but only 128mb ram
20:48:13 <thinfu> i have 256mb ram and i'm only 350mhz :P
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20:57:50 <swalters> I fried my ram while fiddling with various settings.  I fried 3/4 gig and only bought 256meg to replace it.  I can't believe the speed difference.
20:58:18 <thinfu> ouch
21:00:04 <swalters> *shrug*  There are worse things.
21:06:40 <swalters> As soon as I get back from my trip, I'm going to buy another 1/2 gig
21:07:09 <thinfu> hmm
21:07:18 <swalters> When I had 3/4 gig, originally, I had a 800mhz tbird.  Now I've got a 1.3ghz xp
21:07:27 <swalters> It will be interesting to see how the two compare.
21:07:35 <thinfu> what are you running anyways that requires so much ram
21:08:07 <swalters> Really, nothing...  It //does// make a big difference in responsiveness... Especially with firefox.
21:08:25 <swalters> I have a tendency to open 20,000 tabs.  :-P
21:08:43 <thinfu> yeah firefox seems to be a memory hog actually
21:08:47 <swalters> I also run gentoo, but that's not as big a deal as people make of it.
21:08:50 <thinfu> are you doing this in windows or linux?
21:08:57 <thinfu> because firefox seems to be way more of a memory hog in linux
21:09:00 <swalters> It actually got //worse// with the 1.0pr to 1.0 jump
21:09:18 <swalters> linux (gentoo linux)
21:09:38 <thinfu> i wonder if there's any fix to firefox's memory usage
21:09:45 <thinfu> maybe some way to force it not to hog so much
21:09:49 <thinfu> some setting
21:10:06 <swalters> *shrug*  I won't care for long.
21:10:11 * swalters wonders what happened to galeon....
21:10:29 <thinfu> you won't care for long? how come?
21:10:45 <swalters> I'll buy an obscene amount of ram and be done with it.
21:10:46 <thinfu> increasing your ram is like a pill that covers up your symptoms
21:10:53 <thinfu> but doesn't cure your disease
21:10:54 <thinfu> heh
21:11:09 <swalters> Well...  It's cheaper than a new computer.
21:11:20 <thinfu> ?
21:11:32 <thinfu> new computer = getting more ram
21:11:35 <swalters> My biggest beef with blowing my ram and proc is that it made me shell out money I was saving to build an amd64 system
21:11:39 <thinfu> both are just covering up the symptoms
21:11:43 <thinfu> not curing the disease..
21:11:53 <swalters> I can live with the disease.
21:12:11 <thinfu> thats not very forthish :P
21:12:48 <swalters> I have found that I disagree with some of the forth philosophies.  :-P
21:13:11 <thinfu> obviously :)
21:13:56 <thinfu> i knew before you said that simply because of your hardware comments :P
21:14:16 <thinfu> different strokes for different folks
21:15:07 <swalters> My priority is being able to do what I want without a lot of hassle.  I think that some of the minimalism that forth embraces would //definitely// help with that, but first I want a web browser that just works.
21:15:40 <thinfu> what do you want to do ultimately?
21:15:48 <thinfu> in the productive sense
21:15:51 <swalters> Have fun...
21:16:02 <swalters> In general, that means learn, program, chat, etc.
21:16:10 <thinfu> program what
21:17:34 <swalters> *shrug*  It looks like the projects I'll be working on in the near future are a scheme-and-c based text editor, a couple of small forth interpreters and a scheme interpreter or two.
21:17:56 <thinfu> i see programming as a means to increasing productivity
21:18:14 <thinfu> coding apps that empower you
21:18:22 <swalters> The editor is scratching a personal itch that I have, and the interpreters as a way to actually wrestle the issues rather than just reading about them.
21:18:39 <swalters> What's your definition of productivity and empowerment?
21:20:32 <thinfu> directly, improving your lot in life, indiredtly, same for others/providing value for others
21:20:59 <thinfu> the latter is a natural sidebenefit of the former
21:21:07 <thinfu> the latter improves the former too
21:22:19 <swalters> Can you be more specific?  (I agree with your broad statements,  but I'm just courious what your narrow ideas are)
21:22:31 <thinfu> specific in what way?
21:23:27 <swalters> Describe something you've coded or want to code that is in line with your description.
21:26:09 <swalters> (my main curiousity is how you think a person should go about living in line with your ideals...  Most everyone agrees on ideals, but there are few ways that people agree on acheiving them)
21:26:09 <thinfu> well i think the ideal is for anybody to be able to code something on the fly that they need at the moment they need it..  maybe they want to handle their bookkeeping in a specific way, or maybe they want to schedule their projects, or they want to customize whatever they're using on the fly without having to restart anything etc
21:26:49 <thinfu> i.e. programming is a tool
21:26:55 <thinfu> should be used as a tool
21:27:00 <thinfu> no programming for the sake of programming heh
21:27:01 <swalters> What of the people who struggle with algebra, much less computer programming?  (truth in advertising:  I teach math at a community college)
21:27:33 <thinfu> nah i'm not talking about the complicated programming that we have now
21:27:47 <thinfu> i'm not even necessarily talking of higher level programming 
21:27:48 <swalters> btw, I wouldn't describe what I do as programming for the sake of programming.  I program for the sake of enjoyment.
21:28:07 <thinfu> because you enjoy a challenge
21:28:12 <swalters> afk for a sec... (keept typing and I'll read)
21:28:12 <thinfu> because programming presents a challenge
21:29:20 <thinfu> i'm not really a programmer.  i'm a computer/power user mostly that sees programming as a tool to help make himself more productive in order to achieve his other goals
21:30:05 <thinfu> ultimately i'm interested in an operating system & interface that is superior to what we have today
21:30:44 <thinfu> my attraction to forth is because it can be the machine code, the language, the development environment, the gui, etc all the way up to the high level scripting language
21:31:52 <thinfu> i imagine the possibility that a power user like me could sit down and modify existing programs on the fly without having to restart the program, or to add new functionality, or create new programs..  i imagine grandmas being able to do this also.  
21:31:59 <swalters> The beauty that keeps me studying forth is the way it bridges high and low level programming.
21:32:25 <thinfu> btw my first exposure to forth was MUF (multi-user forth) a scripting language for a MUD called TinyMUCK
21:32:48 <thinfu> i thought the language was amazingly easy to learn and to quickly code something that did something interesting or useful
21:33:04 <swalters> Can you think of a scenario where grammy would like to do this and how a perfect (and hence unbound by reality) system would allow her to do it?
21:33:25 <swalters> (btw, have you looked into scheme and read SICP yet?)
21:33:27 <thinfu> grammy can code MUF
21:33:32 <thinfu> SICP?
21:34:15 <thinfu> earlier you implied that having a grasp of math is required for programming
21:34:34 <thinfu> which isn't really that true at the higher level
21:34:51 <swalters> Okay, scheme is a derivative/flavor of lisp.  Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs is the intro textbook for MIT's CS program.  It's an //excellent// read and completely changes your view of what it means to program.
21:34:53 <thinfu> a grasp of math is necessary for complex graphics, and various algorithms
21:35:27 <swalters> It's available for free online.  You would find a lot of food for thought in it and it would probably help you flesh out your ideas.
21:35:34 <thinfu> ok i'll check it
21:36:16 <swalters> Even if you never write a lisp program in your life, learning it (particularly scheme) will improve the way you think.  The book is //all// about abstraction and the hiding of complexity.
21:36:47 <thinfu> hiding complexity is a tricky issue since it can increase complexity
21:37:40 <swalters> Here's the thing...  It's incredibly difficult for people to learn to think in a rule-based system.  People are, for the most part, completely capable of programming and learning mathematics.
21:38:36 <swalters> The problem comes in teaching rule-based thinking, our society //sucks// at it.
21:39:19 <swalters> *nodnod*  Hiding complexity is difficult.  Lisp takes a similar, but complementary tack on the issue as forth takes.
21:39:48 <thinfu> you'd be surprised how many practically computer illiterate people have learned to code in a scripting language..  for example many MUDders on MUDs with scripting languages available/accessible end up learning it
21:40:03 <thinfu> also, hypercard
21:40:10 <thinfu> all i need to say ;)
21:40:22 <swalters> I guess, my main question is "how will grandma learn to relate to it when we still can't don't know how to make them comfortable with dropdown menus?"
21:40:42 <thinfu> thats just a failure of the interface
21:40:48 <thinfu> plus the interface is trying to hide complexity
21:40:52 <thinfu> and adding more complexity
21:40:57 <thinfu> more things to remember, etc
21:41:04 <swalters> Unfortunately, the interface is a difficult problem.
21:41:29 <thinfu> if you're interested in interfaces, i recommend reading "the humane interface" by jef raskin
21:41:38 <thinfu> not available online, have to get it from the library or something
21:42:10 <thinfu> the current day WIMP interface is not actually a good interface at all
21:42:11 <swalters> I actually own it... somewhere.... 
21:42:37 <swalters> WIMP only helps when you don't know what you want to do.  After that, it hinders.
21:42:49 <swalters> half my life is in a storage unit right now.
21:42:56 <thinfu> heh
21:42:58 <thinfu> how come?
21:44:00 <thinfu> i was thinking of putting my stuff in storage too and doing some treeplanting to make some quick money (free room&board)
21:44:35 <swalters> I went broke and had to move back into my parents house.  We don't need two whole houses of stuff.  :-P  I had to go from six book cases to one.
21:45:24 <swalters> Luckily, I'm almost out on my own again.  :-D
21:45:49 <thinfu> heh 
21:46:07 <thinfu> i left most of my books packed up in boxes at my parents place, only got like one box of books now
21:46:11 <thinfu> the bare minimum :P
21:48:10 <swalters> heh  how forthish.  :-P
21:49:38 <swalters> You know... It will be interesting once the opensource movement really gets moving.
21:50:54 <swalters> Once there's a good word processor and similar programs, there will be a lot more room to experiment with ideas like yours.
21:52:57 <swalters> dangit... I don't have all the papers I want to read on the plane....
21:53:27 <swalters> I only have the first five papers in the moving forth series:  http://www.zetetics.com/bj/papers/
21:53:43 <swalters> maybe I can run into work early and print the rest before I leave for the airport.
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.03.11