00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.03.10 00:16:35 --- join: aum (~aum@60.234.98.52) joined #forth 00:23:03 --- quit: Quartus (Remote closed the connection) 01:02:54 --- join: Topaz (~topaz@servalan.ecs.soton.ac.uk) joined #forth 01:03:09 hmm, pondering about ways to do constant-optimisation 01:03:39 i could keep constants lingering on the stack before compiling them, incase any immediate-opcodes want to steal them 01:04:04 or i could just back-track each opcode to see if a constant was compiled in previously 01:04:07 i dunno which is better ;) 01:06:30 ColorForth keeps a flag at compile time to see if the last instruction was a literal 01:07:52 macros can then query it with "?lit" 01:08:42 i presume i need some pointer to the beginning of the 'block' 01:08:49 so i don't optimise past jump-destinations, etc 01:09:48 (jump-inciting words like IF and BEGIN and stuff would need to reset said pointer) 01:12:40 ah, mary has a OPT? word which checks such a pointer 01:47:47 --- quit: Herkamire ("off to bed") 02:02:36 --- quit: Topaz (Remote closed the connection) 02:15:59 --- join: Teratogen (~leontopod@intertwingled.net) joined #forth 02:36:45 --- quit: aum (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 02:59:45 --- join: aum (~aum@60.234.97.227) joined #forth 03:46:41 --- nick: saon -> saon|school 03:48:21 --- quit: aum () 03:49:18 --- quit: SeaForth (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:03:53 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:09:36 --- join: Topaz (~top@cerberus.saywell.net) joined #forth 04:15:17 --- join: aum (~aum@60.234.97.241) joined #forth 04:33:29 hmm, my CONST? optimisation work 04:33:29 s 04:33:46 i guess a next step would be to nuke redundant push/pops 04:34:19 possibly by making any pops look back to see if there are any matching pushes 04:48:36 i'm currently not optimising past jump-points, since i'd need to recalculate them all 04:49:39 and probably couldn't guarantee that i'd find them... 04:49:45 (unless i created bazillions more stacks) 05:38:45 --- quit: Topaz (Remote closed the connection) 05:58:29 --- quit: aum () 06:03:08 --- nick: KB1FYR|AFK -> KB1FYR 06:38:45 --- join: Topaz (jonny@wlan-201.ecs.soton.ac.uk) joined #forth 06:45:29 hmmmhmmm 06:45:34 optimisation! 07:11:09 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp01375108pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 07:17:58 my UNTIL eats preceding DUPs... probably not the most advanced optimisation ever... 07:23:46 --- join: Quartus (~trailer@ansuz.pair.com) joined #forth 08:01:41 --- join: juhammed (~o@dsl-olugw3p33.dial.inet.fi) joined #forth 08:45:54 --- join: SeaForth (~SeaForth@c-24-1-126-202.client.comcast.net) joined #forth 08:46:28 --- quit: Topaz (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:06:06 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 09:19:54 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 09:19:54 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Herkamire 09:37:09 --- quit: hrmpf (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:01:11 --- join: manas (~manas@dialpool-210-214-234-200.maa.sify.net) joined #forth 10:03:28 someone told me, learn forth, and it will change the way you think forever. I am willing. I have kforth, pforth, yforth and gforth out here in debian. Which one should I start with. Which online resources can help? Any books? 10:09:13 hmm...of those, I'm only familiar with gforth. 10:10:04 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@modem-009.nyc-tc04b.fcc.net) joined #forth 10:11:48 any online resources? 10:12:01 Starting Forth (http://www.amresearch.com/starting_forth/) is fairly dated, but still a good intro, IMO. 10:12:50 ok 10:17:13 --- part: manas left #forth 10:20:01 --- join: Serg[GPRS] (~z@193.201.231.126) joined #forth 10:26:59 --- join: Topaz (~top@cerberus.saywell.net) joined #forth 10:40:47 --- join: Cooper (~jockc@12.22.103.2) joined #forth 10:41:13 hello to anyone present 10:42:17 Hi Cooper 10:42:36 Hey. 10:42:39 Is there a good forth system for Palmos? 10:42:46 I think so, yes. :) 10:42:52 http://quartus.net/products/forth 10:42:56 I played with forth in high school, I've always been intrigued by it 10:42:57 heh. :) Quartus Forth :) 10:43:05 I use Lisp now but forth is interesting to me also 10:43:14 website for quartus? 10:43:19 http://quartus.net/products/forth 10:43:21 doh I see it heh 10:44:06 does it have support for the Tungsten C (highres, color, os 5) 10:44:23 There's a late beta in the works right now that has full OS5 support. 10:44:40 cool, a new toy for my palm 10:44:41 You can download the beta evaluation from the website. 10:45:34 what is the current release version 10:45:50 1.2.5r is the shipping version. 1.5.3b is the beta. 10:46:06 If you want to evaulate on a Tungsten C, grab the 1.5.3u eval version from the beta web page. 10:46:16 ok 10:46:32 last time I wrote in forth was on a TRS-80 10:46:42 It's better now. :) 10:46:47 it was fun then too 10:47:29 hii Cooper 10:47:53 i tryed DragonForth on Palm III Symbol, but crashes on Zire 71 10:48:53 A plus for Quartus Forth users is the discussion forum -- lots of sharp people there. 10:49:15 how do you think quartus compares to dragonforth 10:49:45 DragonForth is threaded, so necessarily slower. It's very sketchily documented -- there's a readme.txt and not much else. 10:49:56 It's not actively supported, as far as I can see. 10:50:29 what do you mean by threaded, can I ask 10:50:39 One person said the DragonForth readme was written 'like a telegram, as though words cost money.'. 10:51:30 also, what is the upgrade situation if one registers quartus? 10:51:38 It's the implementation strategy -- the details are a bit heavy, but effectively it means that DragonForth apps run as a sort of bytecode, with a run-time engine. Quartus Forth apps are native-code, no run-time. 10:51:39 as far as future versions 10:51:48 ok gotcha 10:52:00 native is better generally speaking 10:52:09 That's my opinion. Smaller, faster apps. 10:52:30 All minor-number upgrades are free to registered users; there's a nominal cost for major-number upgrades. 10:52:54 any ETA on full release of the eval version? 10:53:04 A week or so. 10:53:13 I'm completing the documentation. 10:53:27 how many developers work on your forth? 10:53:35 not users I mean 10:53:47 are you the sole developer? 10:53:57 I'm the primary developer; I've enlisted assistance from others on occasion, but the project lives in my head. 10:54:22 cool 10:56:27 How do you like the Tungsten C? 10:58:35 so far I like it.. had it a few months 10:58:42 the screen is beautiful, but a little loud 10:59:01 battery life is so so, wifi really eats it though 10:59:07 I can imagine. 10:59:37 sometimes I wonder if the screen whining like that means it is eating more power than it should 10:59:50 I think it's the backlighting that makes the noise. 11:00:49 I looked at a C a while back; very bright screen. 11:01:00 I have a Tungsten T -- not as brightly lit, but no sound whatsoever. 11:01:14 yes even at lowest brightness it looks pretty good 11:01:20 Actually let me amend that. I just turned it on and if you listen very carefully, there's a high-pitched sound. 11:01:24 i would have got a T but I wanted the keyboard.. hate graffiti 11:01:39 I just picked up one of the universal wireless PalmOne keyboards. 11:01:52 how big is that keyboard 11:02:00 Maybe 80% the size of a regular keyboard. 11:02:08 Folds down to 5x6 or so. 11:02:11 might have to pick on of those up 11:02:22 do you answer support questions in this channel? 11:02:26 It's a trifle on the small side, but I've managed with it thus far. 11:02:52 I don't, as a rule. I've only been here a few days. I'm happy to answer support questions anywhere you find me, though -- the best route is going to be the discussion forum, or email. 11:03:21 nod ok 11:03:41 The advantage of using the discussion forum is that other people will chime in too. 11:03:49 I can see how you could get your hands full if you were available all the time on #forth heh 11:04:04 True. 11:06:19 --- join: hrmpf (~hrmpf@gw.mastmoen.no) joined #forth 11:06:53 If you want to get a feel for how apps written using Quartus Forth run, download the SCX Calculator from the same site, or PassPhrase. Both are written entirely on-board using Quartus. 11:14:01 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 11:27:35 --- quit: Serg[GPRS] () 11:32:57 yes, I'll check those out 11:38:18 is there a good source of sample code for quartus around somewhere? 11:51:11 i really need to fix my whitespace-handling 11:51:20 write a better WORD which ignores tabs and newlines... 11:52:54 hmm, have found PARSE-WORD, but it returns a c-addr/u rather than just a c-addr 11:56:47 --- join: zoly (~l@ppp-82-135-5-128.mnet-online.de) joined #forth 11:57:07 'morning 12:26:44 --- part: zoly left #forth 12:35:41 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 12:59:55 --- quit: KB1FYR (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:59:59 --- join: KB1FYR (~Alex@196-220.suscom-maine.net) joined #forth 13:08:41 hi 13:13:31 --- quit: Topaz (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 13:26:54 --- quit: Cooper () 14:25:51 hi all 14:43:25 teh hies 14:45:34 hi arke 14:46:54 am at the office 14:46:58 for another 3.5 hours 14:47:00 :/ 14:47:03 :( 14:47:23 How are the game and dotquote going? 14:47:25 I should ask my dad if he can set up a VNC port to my computer at home 14:47:37 game, hectic, dotquote, where is the time? (wont forget about it though) 14:47:40 next week will be better 14:47:44 ok 14:48:15 I won't be on long today, (I'm getting sick again...) 14:48:19 but right now is hectic because positions are trying to be established, and mom and my boss left for europe for a business trip so I'm basically running the household by myself and running the office by myself 14:49:21 so, very hectic 14:49:41 not to mention that my fucknut boss wants me on the construction site tomorrow too 14:49:46 I mean, I need a fucking life, come on 14:57:51 :) 14:59:27 *sigh* 15:01:38 arke: why ask your dad? 15:02:25 can't you figure out how to run a VNC server yourself? 15:02:49 doesn't matter if he has a firewall in the way either 15:12:31 goodnight 15:12:49 goodnight 15:13:44 --- quit: qFox ("this quit is sponsored by somebody!") 15:26:24 thinfu: naah, he's kinda protective 15:26:33 thinfu: I can run the VNC server, he needs to forward the port though 15:30:17 --- nick: saon|school -> saon 15:41:55 --- join: Topaz (~top@cerberus.saywell.net) joined #forth 15:48:09 not necessarily 15:48:11 thats what i meant 15:48:34 there are ways around the need for port forwarding 15:48:51 as long as the machine can access the internet 15:52:04 --- join: skylan (~sjh@dialup-216-211-47-83.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 16:17:03 --- join: Freejack (~nicad@c-24-11-30-248.client.comcast.net) joined #forth 16:17:49 Everyone lurking? 16:19:18 :D 16:19:37 I've got 10 reams of paper to waste so I'm currently printing every single little bit of forth literature online 16:19:48 I'm curious, what words can be used with create i.e. create dup * , does> @ 4 + ! ; 16:19:55 Or even loops? 16:20:27 i.e. create ?do dup * , loop ; 16:21:59 : sqtable create dup * , does> @ 4 + ; 16:22:11 you can do anything with create 16:22:24 sometimes the result isn't what you wanted, but generally you can do anything :) 16:22:34 I guess you could probably do : foo create .. create ... ; 16:22:38 if you really wanted to 16:22:39 ;) 16:23:00 and yes, loops inside create work, although its better if you put the loop in a separate word then call the word from the create part 16:23:05 arke: Alright. Just checking. Wondering where to check for segfaults. 16:23:43 hehe 16:23:44 what forth 16:23:45 ? 16:24:03 Using isforth and gforth for the moment. 16:24:16 and above fragment crashes both? 16:24:26 (gforth should never segfault from forth code) 16:24:28 Not anymore. 16:25:21 hehe 16:26:12 IsForth did a couple times, but I was doing like create ' square , does> @ execute ; 16:26:31 Which is kinda stupid, now that I look at it. 16:27:18 isforth doesnt do checks like gforth does 16:27:26 so 0 0 ! will crash isforth but not gforth 16:27:34 so gforth is kinda like lisp and isforth is like C ;) 16:27:37 * arke hides from I440r 16:27:53 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 16:28:30 anybody know where to find "starting forth" PDF? I've got 10 reams of paper to waste.... 16:28:32 However doing create ' , , does> @ 4 + ; Might work. i.e. Compiling the data and execution token side by side. 16:28:36 soo, why am I opped? ;) 16:28:43 --- mode: arke set -o arke 16:28:48 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 16:29:01 * arke smacks ChanServ 16:29:04 --- mode: arke set -o arke 16:29:06 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 16:29:18 Aah, i see. 16:29:22 ChanServ is a drama queen. 16:29:23 thinfu: you want me to kick you, huh? 16:29:43 --- mode: ChanServ set -o arke 16:30:41 Oh...that would be create ' , , does> @ 8 + ; 16:30:54 --- quit: Topaz ("Leaving") 16:31:00 that was quick ;) 16:31:27 oh, it wasn't thinfu... 16:31:28 lol 16:32:57 Then I could do 4 square table sqtable 2 sqroot table sqtable blah. 16:33:08 fun stuff 16:33:51 I wonder how many people compile the execution tokens with the data items they work on. 16:34:03 basics of oop 16:34:04 ;) 16:35:29 Well...I'm thinking a sort of template. i.e. Data items that answer queries instead of searching every item in the table. 16:36:34 Hrrrmmm...that'd be hell on threads, but only the data items that match the query would respond. 16:36:55 Could make searching quicker. 16:37:01 ARGH THIS SUCKS 16:37:12 arke: What's wrong? 16:37:17 the printer takes 1 second to print a page and then literall takes 30 seconds until it starts printing the next page 16:37:34 arke: Epson? 16:38:03 no, HP, if this was an Epson it would stop printing after 2 pages and make sounds 16:38:24 Windows? 16:38:50 Yes, unfortunately 16:38:56 (I'm at work) 16:39:02 Heh. I see. 16:39:31 I'd see if you can install the HP PJL drivers. 16:40:18 PJL = Printer Job Language 16:40:45 Uh oh. Breaks over. Gotta get back to work. 16:40:47 its a config problem 16:40:54 because it used to not do that 16:40:56 *sigh* 16:41:00 Gotcha. 16:41:14 Be back in the morning. Heh. About 3am. 16:41:23 EST 16:41:27 ok 16:41:28 :) 16:41:32 Laters. 16:41:36 --- quit: Freejack ("Leaving") 16:42:45 --- join: Sonarman (~snofs@adsl-64-160-166-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 16:43:10 hi Sonarman 16:43:11 :) 16:43:18 Sonarman: do you have a staring forth PDF, by any chance? 16:43:35 hi. sorry, no i don 16:43:43 or did you mean thinking forth? 16:44:20 no i have thinking forth 16:44:24 i need starting forth 16:44:31 * arke is making books because I have 10 reams of paper to waste 16:44:31 :D 16:44:45 ah :) 16:59:46 arke, if you find one, let me know. I've been looking but can't find starting forth in dvi, ps or pdf. 16:59:59 somebody should make one 17:00:00 :/ 17:00:15 swalters: looks like you have the forth basics down though :) 17:00:20 swalters: which is fast, kudos ;) 17:00:28 swalters: theres thinking forth, if you want the link to that 17:01:09 I've been thinking about it. It would be an excellent way to become extremely familiar with forth. 17:01:23 I have thinking forth. 17:03:08 aah 17:03:09 :) 17:10:21 I just finished printing out the gforth manual so I can read it on the plane this weekend. 17:10:44 hehe 17:11:00 If I picked up the basics quickly, it's because I read incessantly. 17:11:00 I've got 10 reams of paper here at work that are just screaming "USE ME USE ME!" 17:11:12 so, I'm printing stuff. 17:11:15 Like, Thinking Forth. 17:11:21 And the ANS draft document. 17:11:23 etc. 17:11:24 ;) 17:11:58 I work in a computer lab that has very nice, very fast printers and doesn't track printing. :-P 17:12:18 :) 17:12:23 Oh this is nice 17:12:28 I can do two-sided printing 17:12:33 * arke cries out in even more joy! 17:12:50 hehehe I wish //I// could print on both sides. 17:13:17 well, its manually 17:13:26 it prints the odd pages, then tells me to reinsert the pages facedown 17:13:29 and then click continue 17:13:29 :) 17:13:33 this printer is FAST 17:13:37 laserjet 3330 17:13:38 ;) 17:13:38 *chuckle* I can't get uninterrupted access to the printers for long enough to do that. 17:13:49 hehe 17:13:53 besides, it's nice to have the flip-side for notes. 17:14:28 naah 17:14:28 :) 17:15:06 After spring break, I'm going to start in on the emacs manual and elisp reference. 17:15:32 * crc likes the emacs manual :) 17:16:13 602 pages of details 17:16:15 I just can't digest material like that on a computer screen. 17:16:20 *chuckle* 17:16:51 You might be proud to know that all the code for retro lives at the front of my forth odds-and-ends book. 17:17:05 cool 17:17:27 ok, i just wasted 150 sheets of paper 17:17:28 Hell, your code was one of the best intro's I could have had. 17:17:41 :D 17:17:44 * crc hasn't made a printout of rf since starting on 8.0... 17:17:48 very cool 17:18:03 * crc tries to make it pretty understandable 17:19:25 --- quit: Teratogen (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:19:54 I found 7.6 a bit easier to follow than 8.0, but 8.0 is still a "point-oh" release. :-P 17:20:07 :) 17:20:19 8.0 is still in alpha too 17:20:33 it is getting better I think 17:20:43 (at least, it's *very* stable finally) 17:22:38 * swalters wanders off to hunt and gather. 17:24:35 ah! mudding in real life! 17:24:48 if you kill 100 squireels you'll level up 17:34:25 goodnight again 17:45:14 --- quit: tathi ("'night all") 19:25:43 --- quit: Sonarman (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:28:23 --- join: Sonarman (~snofs@adsl-64-171-254-23.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 22:18:11 --- join: aum (~aum@60.234.98.157) joined #forth 22:32:29 --- quit: Sonarman ("leaving") 23:27:37 --- quit: aum (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:45:40 --- quit: Herkamire ("off to bed") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.03.10