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09:36:51 <Serg[GPRS]> hi !
09:41:23 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Serg[GPRS]
09:42:14 <ASau> God kvaell!
09:43:37 <Herkamire> hi
09:47:48 <Serg[GPRS]> who has experience of mixed projects, Forth + traditional languages ?
09:48:45 <TheBlueWizard> assuming assembly language is not included in the list :)
09:48:58 <samc> I assume forth + asm doesn;t count
09:48:58 <samc> ]
09:49:08 <samc> bah now we must fight to the death
09:49:12 <Serg[GPRS]> sure
09:49:53 <Serg[GPRS]> i mean languages having most library heritage, or rapid ev ones
09:50:07 <Serg[GPRS]> rapid development, like Perl
09:50:42 <ASau> What do you want?
09:51:18 <Serg[GPRS]> Forth + opengl/directx, mostly
09:51:42 <ASau> If you want utilize shared library, there's example how to do it within gforth.
09:51:52 <Serg[GPRS]> and so +sockets
09:52:01 <ASau> Sockets also.
09:52:35 <Herkamire> I've mostly done forth+asm
09:52:55 <ASau> Though it's pain in interfacing Forth to libc.
09:53:08 <ASau> Or any other C-based libs.
09:53:10 <Serg[GPRS]> i diggeg SP-FORTH +OpenGL, stumbled over 'callbacks' what seemingly need to be in native code
09:54:16 <ASau> I don't know what's OpenGL, never bothered.
09:55:07 <Herkamire> basically, as I see it you have two options.
09:55:45 <Herkamire> 1) work with a forth written in C (or some other language that has easy access to the libs you want) and add core words to do the things you want
09:56:06 <Herkamire> 2) use a ffi to load the libs into the forth, and create your wrappers in forth
09:56:20 <Herkamire> several forths have ffi stuff
09:57:19 <Serg[GPRS]> i tryed one, but some libs want to call functions in my proggie (callbacks'), w/ C calling conventions ;((
09:57:41 <Serg[GPRS]> in opengl, this is screen update hook - so unavoidable
09:58:26 <Serg[GPRS]> and surely, that calls expect native x86 code, not Forth threaded
09:59:21 <ASau> Write a stub.
09:59:35 <Serg[GPRS]> stub ?
09:59:54 <ASau> Or an additional layer.
10:00:16 <ASau> OpenGL -> ... -> threaded Forth.
10:00:41 <Serg[GPRS]> the only solution i see is adding ASM/C code to Forth core
10:01:43 <ASau> Does you Forth have CODE/ASM or smth. of this kind?
10:02:19 <Serg[GPRS]> i forgot since the time of try, it was SP-FORTH 4.0
10:02:56 <Herkamire> mmm... callbacks would be tricky in some forths
10:03:11 <Serg[GPRS]> it has, more - it can recompile self
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10:13:19 <Serg[GPRS]> hmm.. i am more and more tended to consider Forth just an elloquent mindplay, doing real thing mostly in Perl 
10:15:05 <ASau> What do you need to do real things with Forth?
10:16:48 <Serg[GPRS]> hard to say.. maybe the hooliganish, pubertant motivation what drives so called 'demoscene' ;)))
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10:18:56 <ASau> Dobry vecer!
10:19:00 <Serg[GPRS]> 'hey, dudes, i stuffed a game in 4k!'
10:21:19 <ASau> Well, Serg, think about it, make a conclusion.
10:21:29 <ASau> Maybe, I'll help you.
10:22:40 <Serg[GPRS]> hmm... most of my 'real thing' needs are heavy string manipulation
10:23:32 <ASau> Particularly?..
10:24:04 <Serg[GPRS]> website generation, logfile analysis, selective network data retrieval
10:24:24 <ASau> What kind of logs?
10:24:34 <Serg[GPRS]> proxy
10:24:38 <ASau> squid?
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10:24:47 <Serg[GPRS]> wingate
10:25:02 <ASau> I don't know/have one.
10:25:24 <Serg[GPRS]> i wrote one, in Perl - and hardly i can imagine it in Forth ;))
10:25:41 <qFox> Serg[GPRS], I'll say this only once... win32forth (or swift / winforth if you can get it)
10:26:01 <qFox> its bloated, BUT it does support windowsprogramming
10:26:12 <Serg[GPRS]> it has several stages of data joining and accumulation,..
10:26:20 <ASau> qFox, we have free SP-Forth here.
10:26:26 <Serg[GPRS]> qFox: TNX, noticed ;))
10:26:30 <qFox> sp?
10:26:40 <qFox> swift?
10:26:51 <ASau> sf.net/projects/spforth IIRC.
10:27:03 <Serg[GPRS]> SoftPanorama, paper magazine of wild crisis 90-s, now seems dead
10:27:18 <ASau> It's not for "SoftPanorama".
10:27:23 <qFox> whats sp...?
10:27:27 <qFox> i mean, whats special about it?
10:27:44 <qFox> the sf page is incorrect
10:27:51 <ASau> You ask the question which even the author can't answer.
10:28:10 <qFox> eh... you're mentioning it, i'm asuming you at least know something about it?
10:28:22 <qFox> or was i out of line there ;)
10:28:28 <ASau> RuFIG site.
10:28:47 <Serg[GPRS]> qFox: SP-FORTH has even complex commercial webserver written in it, runs http://forth.org.ru
10:28:52 <qFox> ah
10:29:04 <Serg[GPRS]> quite mature project, but all (weak) docs in RU
10:29:14 <qFox> pity i dont read ru
10:29:37 <Rockford> I used SP-Forth a bit.  Not blazingly fast, but it works.
10:30:14 <ASau> spf.sf.net
10:30:20 * Serg[GPRS] afk
10:30:56 <ASau> There's direct link from RuFIG site.
10:37:09 <Rockford> Just looking at the latest build of SP-Forth.  Anybody know how to make the interpreter non-case-sensitive?
10:40:59 <ASau> I don't want to go to NT machine.
10:41:17 <Rockford> I sympathize. :)
10:41:19 <ASau> Ask developers.
10:41:40 <Rockford> The developers speak Rushlish only, it seems.
10:41:42 <ASau> There should be contacts in docs.
10:41:46 <ASau> No.
10:41:57 <ASau> It never seemed so.
10:42:24 <Rockford> Seems that way from the docs provided; there's about eight words of English in the whole thing.  Not that there's anything wrong with that. 
10:42:51 <ASau> Write them and make them write a bit of English documentation.
10:43:11 <ASau> At least their contacts.
10:43:25 <Rockford> Perhaps I shall.
10:43:33 <ASau> They're all very very lazy.
10:43:52 <ASau> "Work on demand."
10:45:46 * Serg[GPRS] back
10:46:00 <Serg[GPRS]> yeah, case-sens MADDENS me in sp-forth
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10:46:15 <zol1> g'day
10:46:15 <Rockford> I can see no advantage to it.
10:46:19 <ASau> Guten Abend!
10:46:37 <Serg[GPRS]> probablee i could hack into FIND or even KEY, but this may make my code incompatible w/ others
10:46:49 <ASau> There's advantage of simplicity.
10:47:23 <ASau> Hacking FIND is more appropriate.
10:48:23 <Serg[GPRS]> if it's in Forth, i may just patch it right in the beginning of my source ;))
10:48:48 <Serg[GPRS]> i already tryed such a trick w/ GP-FORTH
10:48:56 <ASau> Rename old word, write a new.
10:49:24 <Serg[GPRS]> u wrong ! all core words will keep call of old
10:49:41 <Rockford> Ah, tell a lie. It was SMAL32 I worked with back a ways.  I toyed with SP-FORTH but never did anything significant with it.
10:49:43 <Serg[GPRS]> i'll ned to insert call of mine word in the beginning of old
10:49:49 <ASau> I misunderstood you, Serg.
10:50:21 <Serg[GPRS]> hmmm... long to xplain
10:50:36 <ASau> I understand what you want to do.
10:51:04 <ASau> There should be a hook.
10:51:12 <ASau> Smth. like NOT-FOUND.
10:51:28 <Serg[GPRS]> ' MYFIND ' FIND ! , roughly speaking
10:51:56 <zol1> asau, terve
10:53:29 <zol1> "find" is often deferred
10:54:07 <ASau> Serg, actually, look for a hook.
10:54:22 <ASau> There should be a hook, I believe.
10:54:31 <Serg[GPRS]> lazzyy ;))) 
10:54:36 <zol1> if not, consider to change vocabulary structure, to accommodate a vector for find for each vocabulary
10:54:47 <zol1> one can do crazy things with that
10:55:05 <ASau> It's our tradition, it seems, to leave a hook there.
10:55:15 <Rockford> Looks like there's a hook for search-wordlist.
10:56:48 <Rockford> Appears that string matching is done via REPZ CMPS BYTE, so there'd be room to hack in case-insensitivity there.
10:56:58 <Rockford> At a glance it seems to use a primitive linked list, no hashing.
10:58:57 <Serg[GPRS]> bingo ! VECT FIND ;))
10:59:21 <Serg[GPRS]> it has full src, so no trubble to change
11:00:10 <Serg[GPRS]> but other forthers will erupt with curses after finding out what my code insists on patching compiler ;))
11:00:31 <Rockford> I'll take it. :)
11:00:37 <zol1> Rockford: on 386 and later, repz cmpsb seems to be slower than coding it out with explicit register manipulation
11:01:11 <Rockford> Slower yet is not using a hashtable, on any platform.
11:01:24 <Serg[GPRS]> this shows what author matured on pre386. not bad ;))
11:01:49 <zol1> Rockford: slower compared to mov reg,[reg] ; inc reg ; cmp reg ... etc
11:02:04 <Rockford> I see.
11:02:28 <zol1> Rockford: on 8088 ... 80286 cmpsb seems to be advantegous in terms of speed
11:03:22 <Rockford> Serg -- stop coding.  S" lib\ext\caseins.f" INCLUDED does the trick.
11:04:24 * Serg[GPRS] has no such a file
11:04:30 <Rockford> Add a REQUIRE to sp4.ini, and away you go.
11:04:34 <Rockford> No? What build are you using?
11:04:49 <Rockford> This one says Version 4.00 Build 016
11:04:55 <Rockford> I just pulled it down from the link above.
11:05:24 <Serg[GPRS]> Version 4.00 Build 000 at 17.Jan.2001 ;
11:05:39 <Rockford> You're about 3 and a half years back.
11:06:05 <Serg[GPRS]> aha ;))
11:06:47 <ASau> Make hurry to get real!
11:07:24 <Rockford> Glad I persevered; I might actually find it usable now.
11:08:20 <Serg[GPRS]> what else maddening me in SP-FORTH - it crashes then UPX'ed
11:08:31 <Rockford> What's UPX?
11:08:42 <Serg[GPRS]> EXE file compressor
11:08:59 <ASau> What do you need UPX for?
11:09:06 <ASau> Throw it away!
11:09:17 <Serg[GPRS]> why ?
11:09:21 <zol1> Serg[GPRS]: strange. it isn't patching the disk file, is it ?
11:09:34 * zol1 is using upx as well
11:09:45 <ASau> Disk space is not so needed as earlier.
11:09:57 <zol1> tell that to my hard disk :)
11:10:15 <ASau> You only waste CPU clocks.
11:10:20 <Serg[GPRS]> maybe SPF reads self from disk ?
11:10:40 <ASau> zol1, you better clean your OS files.
11:10:58 <zol1> ASau: i did so just a few hours ago
11:10:59 <ASau> Either, winblows or suxx.
11:11:24 <Serg[GPRS]> winblows ? ha-ha !
11:11:46 <zol1> ASau: even set the cleanout period for /tmp stricter
11:12:51 <ASau> Filesystem     Size    Used   Avail Capacity  Mounted on
11:12:51 <ASau> /dev/ad0s2a    7.5G    6.6G    375M    95%    /
11:12:58 <ASau> Hmm.
11:13:16 <ASau> I'm the only user here.
11:13:19 <zol1>  /dev/hda4             22177396  20873748   1078340  96% /
11:13:36 <ASau> Use -h.
11:13:51 <zol1> well, 1 gig is one gig
11:14:11 <zol1> and 96% stays 96%, the one way or the other
11:14:38 <ASau> 20G disk is no compare to 7,5G one.
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11:15:15 <zol1> ASau: that's the system i'm sitting behind. want to see a sytem with a 504 gig hd ?
11:15:19 <zol1> ehm
11:15:22 <zol1> 504 meg
11:15:37 * Serg[GPRS] has 22 of 31 free at data partition
11:16:19 * Serg[GPRS] began 2/ 20meg flaky HDD in Hungarian (?) XT clon
11:16:22 <zol1> 31 gig partitons .... you're boasting :)
11:16:48 <zol1> stil got some 5 mb seagate harddisks :)
11:17:20 <Serg[GPRS]> i still have my 108 meg seagate from my second comp, w/ 1 badblock
11:17:27 <zol1> that's mb, not gb !
11:17:49 <zol1> 3 floppies - disk full :)
11:18:08 <Serg[GPRS]> 5 mb, working MFM ? such a rarity ! my died in 1998
11:18:22 <zol1> got several of those
11:18:53 <zol1> mfm indeed
11:19:01 <Serg[GPRS]> store it under military grade conservation, sell as hi-antique after 50 years
11:19:33 <Serg[GPRS]> (i mean entire computer if u can hack one together)
11:19:37 <zol1> can't afford it. that's what i've done to my 8088/128 kb pc 5150
11:20:07 <Serg[GPRS]> he-he
11:20:30 <zol1> actually, one of my early computers is in museum right now :)
11:20:40 <zol1> pre-pc design
11:20:46 * Serg[GPRS] today seen XIX century photo lenses, sold in comission shop for working, not museum storage
11:21:20 <Serg[GPRS]> 'kodak anastigmat', and some like 'aplanat'
11:21:32 <zol1>  http://www.forthfreak.net/eurocom2.jpg   this one
11:21:42 <Serg[GPRS]> shutterless - from time of multi-minute exposures
11:21:50 <zol1> from 1978 or 79
11:23:53 <Serg[GPRS]> yeah ... here i heard some folks till now make Spectrums out of trash parts coz of desperate poverty, in province
11:24:47 <zol1> that's what one would call "counter-culture"
11:25:12 <Serg[GPRS]> (but i hardly believe it - trashy PC cost equal 100 bread units ;))
11:25:15 <ASau> In provice, those Spectrums were manufactured on factories.
11:25:46 <ASau> JFYI.
11:26:25 <Serg[GPRS]> i agree, but now that factories stopped (ex for 100$ Sprinter for rich nostalgic geeks)
11:27:02 <ASau> Those factories were stopped, of course.
11:28:01 <ASau> We had no need in radios, mag. players etc.
11:28:55 <Serg[GPRS]> he-he ;)) reel tape rigs were superior to nowdays consumer crap, sure
11:29:13 <Serg[GPRS]> but radios were intentionally worsened and deafened ;((
11:29:38 <ASau> I don't know what particular models you speak about.
11:29:47 <ASau> I lived in "province."
11:31:29 <Serg[GPRS]> look in standarts - I'st grade RX had sens of. 100-250 uV, while amateurs easily reach theoretical limit of 3-10 uV in short-wave bands
11:32:19 <Serg[GPRS]> (for AM, for SSB or CW that limit is 0.3-2 uV )
11:32:58 <Serg[GPRS]> particulary - my tubed VEF radio of 1964
11:36:01 <Serg[GPRS]> also, their 'real selectivity' was worsened by using counter-purpose circuitry of RF amp and mixer
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11:37:47 * Serg[GPRS] falls asnooze, bye !
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12:00:26 <TheBlueWizard> bye all
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12:18:59 <zol1> a, qfox was het. 'k wist niet det je nederlands was.
12:22:55 <zol1> het zijn er maar geschatte veertig forthers in nederland
12:23:45 <zol1> dus iedereen kent iedereen, zoiets
12:28:44 <zol1> did u.s. media publish that u.s. authorities are threating europe with a technology embargo ?
12:29:04 <zol1> (because of the china weapon export issue) 
12:29:38 <zol1> would that mean "even fewer exports" ?
12:30:26 <zol1> and "we'll get rid of our stuff somewhere else ... africa maybe ..." ?
12:35:38 <zol1> i'm pretty surprised actually that weapons exports country #1 tries to tell other countries *not* to export weapons
12:35:58 <zol1> are the u.s.  protecting what they consider their own turf ?
12:37:47 <zol1> "china fighting for world communism with weapons made in u.s." 
12:40:25 <zol1> most prominent proponents of embargo seem to be Richard G. Lugar and Joseph R. Biden
12:41:00 <zol1> one is republican, the other a democrat
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12:56:03 <zol1> pull
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12:58:22 * zol1 is tired of monologues
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13:04:50 <I440r_> freejack check pm
13:46:35 <Topaz> anybody got any examples of FORTH cross-compilers? hmm
13:46:44 <Topaz> i'm not sure how to structure the 'macro-assembler'
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17:47:35 <crc> hi all
17:48:52 <Rockford> Hi.
17:52:22 <arke> hi
17:53:01 <Rockford> Not a lot of Forth actually going on in here. :)
17:53:27 <crc> #forth is a fairly social channel
17:53:44 <Rockford> Not a bad thing.
17:53:53 * crc announces his current work on retroforth here, as well as in #c4th-ot and #retro normally
17:54:20 <Rockford> I'd announce my current work in here, but it's commercial. Does that put it out-of-bounds?
17:55:03 <crc> nope
17:55:58 <Rockford> Good.  I only just found this channel/site, I wouldn't want to breach etiquette.
18:12:07 <crc> don't worry too much about etiquette :)
18:14:59 <Rockford> Got it. :)
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20:08:32 <crc> goodnight
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22:35:27 <swalters> 'lo all...
22:36:07 <arke> hi
22:36:10 <arke> (for a bit)
22:42:33 <swalters> The other day, we were discussing the F21 and someone (crc, i believe) threw out the adage "short stack, long words."  When I asked about the hard limit of 16 stack items.
22:44:06 <swalters> or... nevermind...  :-P
23:22:26 <arke> I'm selling gmail invites for $5
23:37:01 <arke> nobody wants any?
23:37:01 <arke> :D
23:37:08 * arke should advertise on slashdot
23:40:56 <swalters> or a channel not populated by people who are most likely to already have a gmail account.  :-P
23:41:41 <arke> :D
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.03.02