00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.02.27 00:03:59 --- quit: Sonarman_ ("leaving") 00:32:51 --- quit: Serg[GPRS] () 01:01:21 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 01:47:33 are there any good forth email lists to subscribe to? 01:48:12 Stuff that's fairly active and good to lurk on and see what other people worry about while writing forth code? 01:49:37 --- quit: Herkamire ("off to bed") 02:16:19 --- join: Hyrax (~das@adsl-64-219-100-33.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 03:18:45 --- join: samc (~sam@203-114-131-55.inspire.net.nz) joined #forth 04:42:29 there are a few out there, although i could not help you with them myself. have you tried the newsgroups? 04:55:32 --- quit: Raystm2 ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 05:13:27 --- join: Raystm2 (~Ray@adsl-69-149-47-230.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 05:21:42 --- quit: onetom (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:27:19 --- quit: samc () 05:29:39 --- join: onetom (~tom@ns.dunasoft.com) joined #forth 06:18:10 --- join: onetom_ (~tom@ns.dunasoft.com) joined #forth 06:18:10 --- quit: onetom (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:49:00 --- join: Topaz (~top@cerberus.saywell.net) joined #forth 07:11:07 --- quit: Topaz (Remote closed the connection) 07:18:05 --- join: Zymurgy (zymurgy@NorthBay-ppp282302.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 07:19:58 --- part: Zymurgy left #forth 07:53:06 --- join: KB1FYR (~Alex@196-220.suscom-maine.net) joined #forth 08:34:45 --- join: Serg[GPRS] (~z@193.201.231.126) joined #forth 09:15:03 --- quit: saon ("leaving") 09:15:20 --- join: saon (1000@c-24-129-90-197.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 09:31:28 hi all 09:48:45 hi ! 09:49:12 ." hello" 09:49:23 ." hi Serg[GPRS], Frek" cr 09:49:27 is RetroForth close to the concept: 'Forth core must have only the features required for extension, all other words - to option libs' ? 09:49:28 heh 09:49:41 Serg[GPRS]: yes 09:49:49 yes Serg[GPRS] 09:49:55 nice ! 09:50:11 The core is a base of words that I find useful all the time. 09:50:12 * Serg[GPRS] writes 'download RetroForth' into Palm's ToDo 09:50:23 http://retro.tunes.org for the latest releases! 09:51:06 hmmm... what if i can live w/o even '.' or 'type' ? 09:51:24 Remove them from the source :) 09:55:14 what does it take to build ? 09:55:45 under Win32 09:55:46 fasm (http://www.flatassembler.net) 09:56:42 make (a batch file will be added today) 09:57:55 aha .. 09:58:38 can i load 'object modules' w/o rebuilding ? 09:59:35 load e 10:00:36 wow, nice ! can i compile Forth source to modules ? 10:00:37 *note* binaries are included 10:00:47 the modules are source code 10:01:29 * crc hasn't worked out all the details of saving them into a binary format yet 10:02:21 a-a-ah... in some RU forth i use, one can write xtensions in ASM w/o rebuild main executable, and save own modules to binary 10:02:28 need URL for src ? 10:02:35 ? 10:02:56 for the RU forth? 10:02:56 www.forth.ru, link 'GP-FORTH' 10:03:04 checking it out... 10:03:15 64K DOS forth w/ binary modules capability 10:04:51 that link times out for me :( 10:05:15 * crc is working on an assembler for use with retroforth 8 10:05:36 Actually, it works already, but isn't fully entered into a blockfile yet 10:05:58 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 10:05:58 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Herkamire 10:06:42 heh, i got the source, can put on web for u tomorrow - but my homepage is tended to timeout too ;(( or may email 10:06:58 crc2@retroforth.org would work for email 10:07:12 I'd like to know how it handles linking in the dictionary headers 10:07:30 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp01375108pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:09:34 i did not look src much, ex for fixing buggy KEY? 10:10:46 (i'll send you virgin one ;) 10:19:07 the build script has been added to the windows version on retro.tunes.org 10:23:31 do you plan to make it recompile itself (Russian SP-FORTH can do so from it's DOS times ;) ? 10:24:52 --- quit: KB1FYR () 10:28:42 eventually 10:29:28 --- join: Alex_ (~Alex@196-220.suscom-maine.net) joined #forth 10:30:16 --- nick: Alex_ -> KB1FYR 10:30:46 who here is natively German ? 10:31:38 i need some native German to write some verses in Deutch for me ;)) 10:32:56 swsch is German, but he's not here 10:33:28 the problem with metacompiling is that I need to be able to make sure it works cleanly on all supported OSes 10:34:44 --- quit: KB1FYR () 10:34:59 --- join: KB1FYR (~Alex@196-220.suscom-maine.net) joined #forth 10:39:11 --- join: Alex_ (~Alex@196-220.suscom-maine.net) joined #forth 10:39:11 --- quit: Alex_ (Client Quit) 10:39:24 Serg[GPRS]: I can help you out :) 10:39:41 --- join: Alex_ (~Alex@196-220.suscom-maine.net) joined #forth 10:39:50 --- quit: Alex_ (Remote closed the connection) 10:39:59 1st i need the hymn of 'Legion Pandora' - female combat starships unit, arrant cut-throats, dykes, rebel poets/artists 10:40:38 melody - some of Nazi marches, 'Horst Wessel' here is widely known as RU patriotic song 10:40:51 er? 10:41:38 * Serg[GPRS] is clobbing together a novel/movie script 10:42:17 long way to tell it in Eng, but i may try ;)) 10:42:53 1) some geek undigs Nazi time-machine project 10:43:00 http://digibarn.com/friends/jef-raskin/index.html 10:43:11 what's it ? 10:43:25 jef raskin died :( 10:44:25 my condolences ;(( who was he ? 10:46:37 crc: :( 10:47:07 crc: thats 2 forth people in 2 months 10:48:17 Serg[GPRS]: so wait, i don't get it, you need me to translate something? 10:48:57 He was the original creator of the Mac, creator of the Canon Cat, creator of THE (now called Archy), and author of The Humane Interface among other things 10:49:46 arke: hmm.. i need one to write some verses anew from my storyline and melody of your choice in given genre 10:51:12 not a long poem ;)) few songs, maybe non-full 10:52:36 damn. I didn't think Jef was old enough to be dying yet. :( 10:52:36 of coz, only if u like my ideas and feel inspired, no forcing self ;))) 10:53:32 I mean, I thought he only just recently started that Raskin Center thing. 10:53:48 crc: got it ;(( rest in peace ,(( 10:54:29 Jef was 61 10:57:16 that's not that old 10:57:46 oh well. hopefully he did something sensible with his copyrights and stuff. 10:58:21 why melody of my choice? :/ 10:58:43 * arke is still confused 11:00:45 see: i wanna write teeth-wrecking political novel 11:01:12 to avoid being sued for national insult, i put it far in future 11:01:28 Hrm. 11:01:31 (novel or maybe amateur movie) 11:01:37 I think I'd be the wrong guy to help :D 11:01:56 heh, u need not write anything political 11:02:46 also I wouldn't have the time, I thought you only needed something translated :D 11:03:13 from RU or ENG ? 11:04:14 DE->ENG or other way is all i could do 11:04:15 --- part: Hyrax left #forth 11:06:15 aha ... writing a bright poem in non-native lang is beyond my talent ;(( 11:06:59 unless i only 'expalin it in coarse rythm' and leave all brightness and elloquence upon translator ;)) 11:07:28 here almost no one knows DE well, and rary - at tech manuals read level 11:08:12 well, if you write it in english, I could probably make it rhyme in german 11:08:20 how long would it be? 11:09:29 2 couplets + refrain may be enuff: fast-paced action, no oper a;)) 11:09:49 :D 11:09:54 Sure ;) 11:10:18 Gimme the rough english text, and the rhyme pattern :) 11:11:35 aha, i'll first try to write it poetically in RU and then roughly explain in ENG - it may take time ;)) 11:11:44 sure 11:11:58 you can send it to me by email, and I'll do it as soon as I have enough time for it :) 11:12:24 but do u _really_like_ , feel inspired ? 11:12:36 or am i just bothering you ;(( 11:12:38 ? 11:12:49 hah, you're not bothering me, I don't mind doing favors like this. 11:13:01 I'll know if I'm inspired if I read the text. 11:14:18 hmmm... i'll have hard time choosing rythm pattern, coz i know dry zero of DE poetry ;(( 11:14:48 Hehe. 11:15:00 A common one will work just fine 11:15:05 but if you wish I can research one. 11:15:22 but it gonnabe _march_, _drumbeat_ 11:15:44 aah. 11:15:53 Well, I have several people I can ask on that 11:16:53 well suitable at war/star/ship departure for possible no-return war-critical mission 11:17:29 abcdefghijef should work well 11:18:07 just 8 couplets, 4 and 8 same pattern 11:18:10 that should work 11:18:12 :) 11:18:32 --- join: Zymurgy (zymurgy@NorthBay-ppp282302.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 11:19:21 --- quit: Zymurgy ("leaving") 11:20:03 ... on bright victory celebration or memorial ceremony for ones who was killed in action .. 11:20:27 is the march melody a 4/4 song or 3/4 song? 11:20:44 * Serg[GPRS] is cumpleet moron in music ;(( 11:21:54 heh :D 11:22:08 4/4 is common 11:31:59 --- join: crc2 (crc@bespin.org) joined #forth 11:38:32 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc2 11:40:14 --- quit: saon ("Lost terminal") 11:50:13 --- join: Sonarman (~snofs@adsl-64-160-166-75.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 11:52:20 Hi Sonarman 11:52:32 hey crc 11:52:48 I'm chatting from inside RetroForth 8 :) 11:52:58 neat :) 12:11:55 --- join: saon (1000@c-24-129-90-197.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 12:22:00 --- quit: Serg[GPRS] ("falling asnooze") 12:26:27 --- quit: KB1FYR () 12:26:44 --- join: KB1FYR (~Alex@196-220.suscom-maine.net) joined #forth 12:31:42 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 12:50:48 --- join: Azure_Ag (azure@h-66-167-211-23.sfldmidn.dynamic.covad.net) joined #forth 12:52:01 --- join: Freejack (~nicad@c-24-11-30-248.client.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:52:24 Anyone here using IsForth 1.15b? 12:53:23 I440r does ;) 12:54:16 crc: Seems like the "mod" word doesnt compile correctly. 12:54:44 Or at least doesnt make it into the vocabulary. 12:55:01 % 12:55:15 He renamed a bunch of words to the C equivilents 12:55:19 mod is now % 12:55:44 Arrg. Then that's the prob. ;-p 12:55:52 Yup 12:56:29 Gotcha. 12:56:32 Now it works. 12:57:30 Thinking about how I could implement quotations on a Forth VM. 12:58:11 You know.... [ dup * . ] map 12:58:20 map? 12:59:05 * crc doesn't know of a word called map 12:59:10 Freejack: you might enjoy #concatenative 12:59:15 crc: "map" would apply the quoted words across every element in a list or stack. 12:59:21 folks in there seem to be into that sort of thing 12:59:25 particularly slava 12:59:35 Herkamire: Yeah...where do you think I got the idea. 12:59:43 hehe 13:00:03 Herkamire: It's a fun excercise. 13:01:03 I mean, those guys are building it all up from C sources..when there are dozens of suitable Forths around. 13:01:51 factor has a very different approach than a traditional forth though 13:02:05 crc: True. 13:02:26 data types, dynamic memory allocation, garbage collection, etc are foriegn to most forths I've encountered 13:03:33 If you haven't seen Joy, yet. . . . 13:03:58 Azure_Ag: Oh yeah. I have Joy installed here. 13:04:18 I figured out why my computer now plays DVDs with crappy frame rate 13:04:43 seems I installed mplayer without altivec (SIMD unit) support 13:04:53 Azure_Ag: I'd like to have a concatenative system that could be implemented using Forth, Assembler, or C. 13:05:25 Basically, building up the higher-level stuff on top of Forth? 13:05:32 Or similar? 13:05:39 Azure_Ag: And a small runtime footprint.(Although Factor and Joy are already pretty small). 13:06:04 I think it would be pretty easy to support this sort of syntax: ... { 1 2 3 } and have that create a list 13:06:12 Azure_Ag: Yup. I'ts pretty much an intellectual excercise at the moment. I like both Joy and Factor. 13:06:19 { could save the current stack depth and } would grab everything beyond that 13:06:21 Anything you build on Forth would be pretty much implementation specific I'd think 13:06:26 everything in side could be executed as normal 13:07:02 He has a point. A lot of the stuff couldn't be implemented in ANS forth. 13:07:19 Or, at least, not pure ANS. 13:08:03 Azure_Ag: That's for certain. Perhaps a small concatenative subset would work though, no? 13:08:36 Possibly. 13:08:41 * Azure_Ag really dislikes ANS, incidentally ;) 13:08:47 same here 13:08:50 The old FIG Forth model and Forth-83 were . . . . nicer. 13:09:12 I don't aim for either of those standards either though... 13:10:21 I don't suppose adding something like "ANS env-set" or "FIG env-set" etc... would be appropriate? 13:10:41 not really 13:11:11 even if they have the same words, internal details might be different enough to break apps across systems 13:12:37 crc: True. But I think it would be useful as a portability testing tool. 13:13:27 * crc doesn't put much faith in portable forth code 13:13:54 I can see a point in making some things portable. 13:13:56 Like, say, the FSL. 13:13:58 it's too easy for any non-trivial app to become dependent on the way a given forth system works 13:14:02 If it's possible at all, no reason not to do it. 13:14:03 Ideally, "standard" Forth words shouldn't depend on the host system. 13:14:43 even there you can run into implementation issues 13:15:22 crc: How do you handle the differences between Forths? 13:15:29 create foo 1 cells allot 13:15:29 create bar 100 cells allot 13:15:30 : clear_foo&bar foo 101 cells 0 fill ; 13:15:37 that will work on some forths, and not on others 13:15:47 I rewrite the code for each forth it has to run on 13:15:58 (normally I stick to one forth though) 13:16:33 Kind of an impetus to keep the code small. 13:16:42 yup 13:16:53 Heh. 13:17:21 My largest app so far is about 128k (256 blocks) of source, and that's for a database & interface for an inventory control app 13:17:59 crc: Ever write GUIs with Forth? 13:18:07 once in a very long while 13:18:57 I poked at trying to interface one to gforth, a while back. 13:19:14 Another thing that has me interested in modding a Forth system is the idea of Table Oriented and Collection(Array) Oriented Programming. 13:19:19 * crc thinks that GUI's are overrated 13:19:48 * Freejack thinks that GUI's are overcoded. 13:19:57 that's true too 13:21:19 the closest thing I've done to GUI work lately is a CGI app. Web frontend, forth on the backend. 13:21:31 Vector Languages(APL, J, etc..), Concatenative Languages, Forth, and Table Oriented/Collection Oriented Languages, all seem to meet at a vague metaprogrammatical point that I cant put my finger on yet. 13:22:10 It's really got me curious as to what can be done in terms of optimizations and such. 13:22:35 I only do a few simple optimizations 13:22:58 inling a few common words, tail call elimination, etc 13:23:31 Even full blown relational languages fall in there somewhere. 13:23:39 Know what I mean? 13:24:41 no 13:25:02 What are you including in your definition of table-oriented languages? 13:25:03 I haven't used any languages other than forth, assembly, and sometimes C in several years 13:25:27 Maybe I'm thinking of self-modifying code. 13:25:47 that would be implementation specific :) 13:26:11 I would suspect so. :> 13:26:28 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@modem-156.nyc-tc03a.fcc.net) joined #forth 13:27:33 My irc client seems fairly stable now... 13:28:38 Kernels done recompiling. Time to reboot. Brb. 13:28:41 --- quit: Freejack ("Leaving") 13:35:00 --- join: Rtbor (~rtbor@6ead5bc6e045c9ef.node.tor) joined #forth 13:40:19 --- part: Rtbor left #forth 14:29:56 --- join: Topaz (~top@cerberus.saywell.net) joined #forth 14:33:11 --- join: Alex__ (~Alex@196-220.suscom-maine.net) joined #forth 14:33:16 --- quit: qFox ("this quit is sponsored by somebody!") 14:33:17 --- quit: KB1FYR (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:45:44 --- join: aum (~aum@60-234-138-239.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) joined #forth 14:48:05 --- nick: Alex__ -> KB1FYR 15:22:19 --- quit: aum () 15:25:54 hmm, do people usually write software interactively? 15:25:59 --- join: wizardyesterday (~chris@0-1pool32-21.nas11.oakbrook1.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 15:26:09 i find i can't really think that way 15:26:14 although i guess one gets used to it 15:28:07 --- part: wizardyesterday left #forth 15:34:13 People do in some languages more than others. 15:35:25 I find that the way I tend to develop involves writing a dbit of code, poking at it to see if it works, then writing somethign else, poking at it, putting them together, poking at the combination. . . 15:48:10 yeah 15:48:21 i guess FORTH makes true bottom-up interactive programming a lot easier, at least 16:04:35 I think it's a combination of the REPL and not-static-typing. 16:05:07 Doubtless, someone who likes ML or Haskell will come and disembowel me with a soup spoon, now. 16:31:59 --- part: Topaz left #forth 16:38:56 --- quit: crc2 (Ping timeout: 14400 seconds) 16:55:33 lasted 4 hours before timing out ;) 16:59:57 I find that I do a lot of interactive programming 17:00:19 write a word, test and debug it, repeat until the app is done 17:23:29 that's the way to go :) 17:24:15 4 hour timeout? :D 17:24:50 that seems to be what freenode sets the limit at... 17:25:04 haha 17:25:06 that is hilarious 17:25:30 the client doesn't respond to pings, or it'd still be connected 17:26:42 I used to have it connect to #ka0a0a0a and say "." every 30 minutes or so to avoid timeouts 17:26:49 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.2) joined #forth 17:27:24 that was a nasty hack though 17:29:27 crc: hah :D 17:32:26 not as nasty as the hacks I was working on to make the display nicer looking 17:33:24 :D 17:41:24 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 17:55:56 --- quit: Azure_Ag ("= Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz-POP!") 18:19:56 goodnight 20:12:01 'lo all... 20:13:29 hi swalters 20:13:37 sorry I couldn't get back to you previously 20:13:48 I can talk in a bit :) 20:14:08 s'alright... I'll assume that you're not pathetic enough for IRC to be the driving concern in your life. :-P 20:14:24 I can't even recall what I was asking about... 20:15:07 looping structures and conditionals :) 20:16:38 oh... I think I'm getting those down. 20:17:23 I've found a few better tutorials. Any idea if there's a more printer-friendly version of starting forth anywhere? 20:24:01 nope 20:24:20 if you have a PDF you can tell acrobat to print 2, 4, 6, 9, 16 pages per sheet 20:25:23 Well, I abuse my printer privelidges at work and print out manuals. I guess I'll have to settle for the html version and see if I can coax it into not splitting the pictures. 20:27:06 I'm sure theres a PDF version of the actual book 20:27:29 --- join: aum (~aum@60-234-138-239.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) joined #forth 20:35:30 Though, so far, I've come up empty handed. 20:40:26 --- quit: saon (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:46:30 --- quit: aum () 21:04:49 *yawn* the preliminaries of learning a new language is always so boring. 21:05:22 "Now press the key labeled: RETURN" 21:05:50 :) 21:09:59 --- quit: cmeme (Remote closed the connection) 21:12:13 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.2) joined #forth 21:12:29 --- quit: cmeme (Remote closed the connection) 21:13:25 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.2) joined #forth 21:13:43 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 21:27:03 --- join: madgarden (~madgarden@Ottawa-HSE-ppp4082108.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 21:49:26 hmmm... how does one accomplish recursive functions? ": foo dup . dup 0 = if dup 1 - foo then ;" doesn't seem to do the trick... 21:49:58 I saw something mentioning tail call elimination, so I imagine it can be done. 21:50:03 swalters: in ANSI Forth (the dialect you're using), you can call the entry point of the current word with the word "RECURSE" 21:50:59 in some other forths you can just use the name, but in most the name doesnt apply to the dictinoary until the semi-colon, thus its valid to do something like : foo 1 2 + ; : foo foo . ; 21:52:09 Thanks. So, gforth is ANSI Forth? 21:52:20 yep 21:53:25 and now i must sleep 21:53:26 good night 21:53:29 sleep well. 21:53:33 Thanks 21:53:49 :) 21:53:57 no problem, I'll be here almost any time. 21:54:06 you can also send me an email if you wish 21:54:41 the f2 addy from your whois? 21:55:02 naah 21:55:18 gmail is better, more space ;) 21:57:45 --- quit: Sonarman ("leaving") 21:58:42 good night 22:13:11 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving") 22:15:21 --- join: saon (1000@c-24-129-90-197.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 22:19:20 Okay... next question, if anyone is still around before I head for bed... 22:24:03 --- join: OrngeTide (orange@rm-f.net) joined #forth 22:24:09 Jef Raskin died! :( 22:24:29 Mutual recursion in ANSI Forth (gforth) This doesn't work " : odd? ; : even? dup 0 = if true else odd? then ; : odd? dup 1 = if true else 1 - even? then ; " 22:28:18 (ignore the fact that the code doesn't accomplish what it puports to and focus on the mutual recursion) 22:34:19 * swalters scurries off to bed. 22:37:16 * swalters rtfm and discovers his answer. Move along, nothing to see here. 23:54:02 --- join: Topaz (~top@cerberus.saywell.net) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.02.27