00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.02.22 02:51:19 --- quit: onetom (Remote closed the connection) 03:05:27 --- join: onetom (~tom@ns.dunasoft.com) joined #forth 03:45:52 --- quit: Herkamire ("off to bed") 07:32:13 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@modem-042.nyc-tc03a.fcc.net) joined #forth 07:37:28 --- quit: TheBlueWizard (Excess Flood) 07:38:57 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@modem-042.nyc-tc03a.fcc.net) joined #forth 09:18:02 --- quit: SeaForth ("Leaving") 09:30:36 --- join: SeaForth (~SeaForth@c-24-1-126-202.client.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:56:48 --- join: Serg[GPRS] (~z@193.201.231.126) joined #forth 11:56:24 --- quit: Serg[GPRS] () 12:03:01 --- quit: KB1FYR (Remote closed the connection) 12:03:08 --- join: KB1FYR (~Alex@196-220.suscom-maine.net) joined #forth 12:03:57 --- quit: KB1FYR (Client Quit) 12:04:08 --- join: KB1FYR (~Alex@196-220.suscom-maine.net) joined #forth 12:16:25 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp01375108pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:33:58 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 13:27:17 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 13:27:18 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Herkamire 14:19:41 hi all 14:19:47 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 15:11:51 --- join: madgarden (~madgarden@Ottawa-HSE-ppp4087584.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 15:25:03 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 15:35:14 crc, if you should see zoly, please tell him I have almost finished the ruby port of jsforth. 15:36:50 I will let him know 15:42:49 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:47:24 crc, thank you. 15:47:50 oh crap, talk about wishful thinking, that was meant to say, I have started. 15:47:54 Man, I'm spazzy today. 15:48:01 I have started the port of jsforth. 15:48:05 I'm far from finishing it :) 15:48:17 ahh, ok 15:48:38 * crc is busy working on various things related to retroforth 8.0 15:52:26 man, jsforth simply blows me away. Very cool idea, implementation and wow, completeness 15:52:37 * SeaForth gushes enthusiasm for it. 15:54:54 * crc thinks it's a nice concept, but it's too ANS-ish for my liking 16:00:01 SeaForth: huh? whats cool about jsforth? 16:00:58 thinfu, that it runs on the web, it is well documented, it simply 'works' and gets folks up and working with a number of forths without too much investment on time, effort or resources. 16:01:04 That is a start. I could list a bunch more. 16:01:47 oh, and that it simply 'feels' good when using it. I think more than anything else that will get people to take a second, third (and hhopefully more) look at Forth. 16:02:35 thinfu, what are your thoughts on jsforth? 16:02:56 i dunno, it didn't stand out from all the other web forths that i've tried 16:03:00 but i didn't use it for more than 5 mins 16:03:47 do any of the other forths on the web implement a very easy multi standard switching context? 16:04:00 or online web blocks? 16:04:17 that could be one way it stands out from others. 16:04:30 * SeaForth is not familiar with other web implementations of any forth standard. 16:04:43 but then again I'm not familiar with any other web based forth either :) 16:05:57 what the heck does "multi standard switching context" mean? 16:06:20 the other web forths suck anyways.. and no blocks afaik 16:06:32 jsforth does seem more usable 16:06:54 but i think zoly is making the mistake of ansifying it to make it attractive to a wider audience 16:06:57 as thats simply not true 16:07:38 its not true that he is ansifying it, or the population is interested in such? 16:08:07 its not true that it'll attract more people to it 16:08:56 SeaForth: also look at this one: 16:08:57 http://www.printly.de/HelFORTH/foerthchen/ 16:08:59 thinfu, I suspect that depends on his target audience. Are you saying it has been proven that 51% of the population that looks at Forth for the first time knows what Forth ANS even means let alone gives it merit? 16:09:35 I have a very hard time thinking that new users of Forth are even concerned with what ANS Forth is, let along all the various other 'standards' 16:09:59 In due course, I believe a Forth'er with some exposure and time discovers what their religion is. 16:10:05 huh? are you misunderstanding me? 16:10:09 I must be. 16:10:19 Its unclear to me that a new user would care what ANS is. 16:10:24 that is his target audience. 16:10:26 exactly 16:10:30 at least it was the last time I talked to him. 16:10:52 zoly is adding ANS stuff to jsforth 16:10:55 can we agree jsforth is a newbie targeted tool? 16:11:04 Yes, I know he is adding ANS to jsforth. 16:11:09 because he thinks it'll make jsforth more attractive to new users 16:11:18 but i think thats wrong 16:11:21 oh, ok. Now i understand. 16:11:35 sorry, I thought you were getting at that ANS was a reason to know like jsforth as it is. 16:11:41 know/not. 16:11:51 i think that retroforth will become very popular simply because it isn't trying to be everything for everybody 16:11:55 its sticking with some ideals 16:12:01 and thats worth more in the long run 16:12:09 look at the linux distribution slackware 16:12:10 I don't think implementing ANS in jsforth is going to make anyone new think more or less of it in the beginning (within the first few minutes) 16:12:24 its about the oldest distribution 16:12:34 but the main guy has his ideals 16:12:37 They are both (rf and jsf) are for different audiences. 16:12:38 and imposes it on slackware 16:12:45 no not really 16:12:51 I do. 16:13:02 I don't think rf is for newbies, at least not when I touch it. 16:13:07 but it has been a while. 16:13:10 i think rf is for newbies 16:13:13 hmmmmm. 16:13:19 it has the least clutter 16:13:21 a small vocabular 16:13:22 that is not the feeling I got last time I unpacked it. 16:13:25 easy to learn 16:13:33 * thinfu is supposed to add a helpsystem to it 16:13:39 :) 16:13:41 then it'll truely be newbie friendly ;) 16:13:42 go thinfu go 16:14:03 I think rf is cool. I am interested in porting it to PPC. 16:14:06 I'm not against rf. 16:14:14 they both to me have a place. 16:14:18 the problem with rf is the lack of documentation 16:14:24 I think rf is a minimimalist forth. 16:14:35 crc: yes and no 16:14:40 it has a place, for someone with experience to build tools on that meet their needs. 16:15:11 I think jsf has its place, it is standard flexible, a good learning tool, and I don't think the web implementation will ever be a production tool. 16:15:16 rf is a minimalist forth, but not a minimal forth 16:15:17 i think a minimalist forth is the best place for a newbie to start 16:15:18 :) that said, I think the audiences are different. 16:15:22 cuz they aren't scared away 16:15:36 or overwhelmed 16:15:43 thinfu, you can make jsforth a minimalist forth, just start out with the smallest standard and expand from there. 16:15:51 your point is exactly correct. 16:16:03 I was overwhelmed with many forths due to the large voc in them. 16:16:09 jsf can be a minimalist forth. 16:16:10 yup 16:16:13 same 16:16:26 F-PC & win32forth were some of the first forths i looked at 16:16:33 made me gag 16:16:48 wayy too complicated environment/vocab 16:17:01 so, just turn jsf into a minimalist by type the standard, and presto, you get what you want instantly. No learning load commands, or understanding what blocks are... Its simple, automagic, and pretty slick. 16:17:18 want minimal, hit f83. 16:17:37 i've tried all the dos forths 16:17:39 rf appeals to me more 16:17:46 doesn't strike me as a dead forth 16:17:47 and rightfully so, it is a nice forth. 16:17:54 its in development etc :) 16:18:02 and plus, available on windows, linux, etc.. 16:18:06 jsf is also, so they have both merit there. 16:18:23 jsf is available pretty much regardless of OS, another reason I say it is slick as heck. 16:18:35 does it work in lynx? 16:18:36 no installation either, makes me smile. 16:18:38 lol 16:18:44 good question. 16:18:55 I kinda doubt it, unless lynx does js vm 16:19:01 I'm not a lynx user now. 16:19:03 :) 16:19:06 although I used to years ago. 16:19:08 i don't think lynx does javascript 16:19:14 I didn't think so. 16:19:14 i dunno if any of the console browsers do 16:19:30 --- quit: saon ("Lost terminal") 16:19:33 but then again, I'm not sure someone that is going to be trying forth out for a first time will be a lynx user. 16:19:55 hah 16:20:00 and again, that seperates the target audience. If rf is targeted to be usable by lynx users, I'm pretty sure jsf is not. 16:21:10 so, the audiences are not the same. however, somehow I don't think rf is being developed to facilitate lynx users either, so maybe that is a bad example of seperate differentiated audiences. 16:21:57 that all said, lets shake hands and go back to our respective corners. 16:22:12 :) I'm all for both of them, for I believe they both serve quite different audiences. 16:24:21 :P 16:24:23 yeah 16:38:19 --- quit: SeaForth ("Leaving") 17:45:11 --- join: Sonarman (~snofs@adsl-66-124-255-164.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 18:02:58 --- join: madgarden (~madgarden@Ottawa-HSE-ppp4087249.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 18:09:09 --- join: madgarden_ (~madgarden@Ottawa-HSE-ppp4086175.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 18:25:44 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:31:47 --- quit: Raystm2 ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 18:37:47 --- join: Raystm2 (~Ray@adsl-69-149-37-0.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 18:50:26 --- join: SeaForth (~SeaForth@c-24-1-126-202.client.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:10:42 --- join: madgarden (~madgarden@Ottawa-HSE-ppp4085046.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 19:10:48 --- quit: madgarden (Client Quit) 19:22:51 --- quit: madgarden_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:49:43 --- join: asymptote (~dmesg@68.48.8.92) joined #forth 19:54:16 --- quit: Frek ("Client exiting") 20:01:06 --- join: Frek (233-ident-@h89n2fls31o815.telia.com) joined #forth 20:01:35 --- quit: asymptote ("Free the mallocs!") 20:03:51 goodnight 20:39:09 --- quit: SeaForth (Client Quit) 21:49:47 so many things to do, so little time 21:49:59 well, I don't have much time right now anyway 22:20:35 --- quit: Sonarman ("leaving") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.02.22