00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.02.21
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04:09:13 <zol1> 'morning
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04:36:32 <Frek> zol1: safari works great; except for cursor position (and parts of the blocks)
04:53:13 <zol1> frek, hi
04:53:20 <zol1> well, that's not "great"
04:53:49 <zol1> it is better than with IE
04:54:02 <zol1> which is pretty broken now
04:54:52 <zol1> there's three levels now, with IE the lowest. safari, along with opera and konqueror, is one better
04:55:12 <Frek> zol1: yes, but it's atleast usable in safari 
04:55:24 <zol1> firefox, mozilla, netscape, epiphany, galeon are just fine
04:55:48 <zol1> the part of the blocks you miss are the server side blocks
04:55:58 <Frek> yes www based ones
04:56:00 <zol1> which is a pity, because they contain useful stuff
04:56:34 <zol1> but i reckon i can get them working
04:56:49 <Frek> what's the problem with the server side operations on safari/opera/konquerer ? 
04:57:12 <zol1> the way i access the contents of an iframe (which i use to load blocks from server)
04:57:57 <Frek> okay; cause safari errors with "file transaction didn't complete in time"
04:58:48 <zol1> contents = remotefile.contentDocument.getElementsByTagName("pre")[0].firstChild.nodeValue 
04:59:03 <Frek> yea I'm clueless when it comes to javascript :)
04:59:17 <zol1> that's what doesn't work with safari
04:59:22 <Frek> ah
04:59:39 <Frek> actually I can't get load to work at all in firefox (OS X build)
04:59:53 <zol1> oh?
05:00:01 <Frek> n/m
05:00:11 <Frek> it seems I had to do "8 LOAD" first, then "21 LOAD" works
05:00:16 <zol1> right
05:00:23 <Frek> if I didn't do that it just gave me
05:00:24 <Frek> "http://wiki.forthfreak.net/jsforth80x25.html"
05:00:25 <Frek> err
05:00:36 <Frek> hidden definitions 1 5 +thru 
05:00:43 <zol1> on screens 8 ...  are words which are required by 21 load (compiling SEE)
05:00:45 <Frek> === error(-13): word not found ===
05:00:51 <Frek> ah 
05:00:52 <Frek> okay
05:01:05 <zol1> SEE does not only decompile, it shows source if available
05:01:21 <zol1> to that end it uses some of the added block words from screen 8
05:01:32 <Frek> yea eitherway; this is really cool 
05:01:33 <zol1> that's written on the info window
05:01:52 <zol1> SEE is pretty new
05:01:57 <zol1> only a few days in 
05:02:06 <zol1> last addition was ALLOCATE/FREE
05:02:13 <Frek> considered making a standalone version too ? (like extract codemonkey or whatever mozillas javascript engine is called again ?)
05:02:21 <zol1> spidermonkey ?
05:02:22 <Frek> ah ok
05:02:23 <Frek> right
05:02:57 <zol1> as soon i found out how to get spidermonkey to run it without the textareas defined in the calling html file
05:03:08 <Frek> ah
05:03:13 <zol1> jsforth wants from textareas for terminal emulation
05:03:27 <zol1> those are missing when i invoke spidermonkey directly on jsforth
05:03:29 <Frek> gotcha
05:03:48 <zol1> s/from/form/
05:04:14 <zol1> otoh, what would a standalone version be good for ?
05:04:31 <zol1> there's plenty of forths which you can just run on your machine
05:04:46 <zol1> reason for jsforth is that you can run it without downloading/installing a forth
05:05:02 <Frek> yes but few of them has this "web-ability" from scratch etc
05:05:32 <zol1> that's true. but with spidermonkey, and without browser, jsforth would lose that
05:05:46 <zol1> you can run it "stand-alone" in your browser :)
05:05:53 <Frek> couldn't use something like curl or wget instead ? 
05:06:12 <Frek> yea 
05:06:32 <zol1> i can't get access to local machine resources easily through javascript
05:06:41 <Frek> gotcha
05:06:51 <zol1> and shelling to a command is probably out of question
05:07:10 <zol1> that' why i store local blocks in cookies ...
05:07:27 <Frek> the original idea was that jsforth feels a bit more "secure" than a traditional standalone forth too, like not being able to mess around with the computers memory extensively etc
05:07:30 <zol1> just opening a file would be waaaay better
05:08:00 <zol1> yes, javascript is pretty much a very protective layer here
05:08:12 <Frek> so it's of course a great learning tool while learning forth
05:08:22 <zol1> i do hope so
05:08:31 <Frek> one thing I miss however is a stackview window
05:08:38 <zol1> it is meant to be support for on-line courses, tutorials
05:08:44 <Frek> yea i figured 
05:09:06 <zol1> that's also the reason why i tried to add ANS compatibility
05:09:13 <zol1> which is normally not my strong side :)
05:09:22 <Frek> ah 
05:09:27 <Frek> :)
05:09:45 <zol1> and why it got the standard compliancy switch
05:09:58 <Frek> however I'm impressed how well it actually works (in firefox it's obviously excellent :)
05:10:14 <zol1> i develop it under firefox, so that comes at no surprise
05:10:20 <Frek> gotcha
05:10:50 <zol1> actually, epiphany and galeon load web blocks much quicker
05:11:02 <Frek> i see
05:11:08 <zol1> those are gnomish browsers
05:11:15 <Frek> ok
05:11:21 <zol1> epiphany is a fork of older galeon
05:11:50 <Frek> alright, never heard of any about them before 
05:11:52 <zol1> i'm positively surprised about the execution speed
05:12:01 <zol1> i didn't expect it to be that fast
05:12:07 <Frek> never heard about any of them before even
05:12:13 <zol1> (well, i expected it to be much slower)
05:12:20 <Frek> yes it's very surprisingly fast
05:12:51 <zol1> one reason for that is ignorance :)
05:12:57 <Frek> ah
05:13:13 <zol1> i found the handy array.push and array.pop methods in javascript only much later
05:13:42 <zol1> when i had "manual" stack handling through indexing and stack pointer built in already
05:14:07 <zol1> only to find that the js methods for emulating stack are way slower ...
05:14:44 <zol1> (jsforth was the first thing i did in javascript)
05:15:31 <zol1> i did expect it to be slower by a factor if about 25
05:16:39 <zol1> thought it might be in the same speed - or, lack of speed - category as bashforth
05:17:12 <zol1> ..which is about 25 times slower
05:20:29 <Frek> ah
05:21:31 <zol1> looks like ALLOCATE/FREE work fine, i had them running with the stress test on screen 27 for 24 hours on 3 machines now
05:21:38 <Frek> :)
05:21:55 <zol1> good, because that code is not trivial
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05:23:55 <zol1> morning SeaForth
05:25:33 <SeaForth> good morning
05:28:24 <zol1> "Just enter your Username below, and we'll email your password to the email address we have on file. If you don't remember your username, please contact Todd Nathan ."
05:29:35 <zol1> that's from http://asforth.seework.com
05:31:46 <zol1> "Libya is building the largest telescope of Africa"
05:32:01 <zol1> i wonder whether they would have use for Forth :)
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05:37:32 <zol1> morning Azure_Ag
05:39:03 <Azure_Ag> Good morening, gentle creature.
05:40:35 * Azure_Ag discovers class was not, in fact, cancelled and runs off to go there.
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05:51:14 <zol1> hmm, they order it as kit from France ..
05:51:57 <zol1> "was ordered by Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, who has a passionate interest in astronomy"
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08:39:23 <thinfu> onetom: hey
08:39:43 <thinfu> onetom: awaken! arise from the dead to drink the blood of the living!
08:40:05 <thinfu> onetom: awaken! creature of the night!
08:53:08 <onetom> :)
08:53:40 <onetom> im alive all the time but not deeply interested in forth nowdays
08:54:45 <onetom> but rebol instead..
08:56:40 <thinfu> nice
08:56:42 <thinfu> tell me about rebol :)
08:59:12 <thinfu> onetom: tell me about your projects .. :)
09:03:10 <onetom> its not a simple question
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09:05:46 <onetom> my main project is finding a satisfactory computing environment, what allows me 2 express my thoughts easily, fast & inspiring way, what is a joyfull playground for all types of my ideas
09:06:40 <onetom> the first milestone in this project is learning rebol & try 2 adopt it at my workplace as an everyday tool
09:07:07 <thinfu> yes i remember you are very oriented towards rapid prototyping :)
09:07:23 <thinfu> quickly expressing your ideas before the heat of it fades
09:07:40 <thinfu> i'm definitely interested in rapid prototyping..
09:07:51 <thinfu> but at the same time i don't want to do it in a bloated manner..
09:08:11 <thinfu> i hope that bloat isn't a necessary trade off
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09:39:46 <onetom> it isnt. at least it seems so if we consider rebol
09:40:19 <thinfu> i don't know much about rebol
09:40:31 <onetom> but i havent programmed any serious stuff yet, so it hasnt proven its usability so far
09:40:51 <onetom> thinfu: there is a rebol.com/oneliners.html ...
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09:41:41 --- nick: madwork_ -> madwork
09:41:43 <onetom> my favourite is that piece what removes all occurences of an element from a serie (like string or block of any datatypes)
09:41:52 <thinfu> onetom: what have you been up to for the last 2 years anyways?  seems like we've been out of touch that long..
09:41:59 <onetom> it looks like this: until [ not remove find list item ]
09:42:01 <thinfu> what have you coded etc..
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09:42:08 <thinfu> have you finished your military term ?
09:42:14 <onetom> and its not metacode. its a real working rebol code
09:42:14 <thinfu> civil term or whatever
09:42:38 <onetom> say list: [ asd qwe yxc asd rtz dfhh tipjhrio ]
09:42:43 <onetom> item: 'asd
09:42:48 <thinfu> hmm nice
09:42:52 <onetom> etc
09:42:55 <thinfu> maybe forth could learn some stuff from rebol ;)
09:43:01 <thinfu> yeah i'm still a forthhead
09:43:34 <onetom> yup, the civil service is already over for a yr
09:43:46 <thinfu> ah
09:43:55 <thinfu> you mentioned something about running a business with your dad?
09:43:58 <thinfu> doing consulting or something?
09:45:09 <onetom> well... i think U can learn from rebol so u can distill optimized & minimized versions of ur algorithms & data structures in rebol so u can code it in forth easily
09:45:35 <onetom> im not working w me father nowdays
09:45:35 <thinfu> is rebol interactive?
09:45:39 <thinfu> that code looks interactive
09:45:40 <onetom> sure
09:45:45 <thinfu> in the oneliners
09:53:20 <thinfu> so what are you doing then nowadays.. working for a company or ?
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09:59:55 <onetom> company.. workin as a sysadmin 4 the majors office
10:00:36 <onetom> serving net 4 ~150 institutes (kindergardens, schools, hospital)
10:01:30 <thinfu> sounds like the civil term gave you the contacts to get jobs like that
10:02:12 <onetom> &developing financial apps 4 them so they can provide accurate data about the money the city government gives them as "support"/donation whatever
10:02:38 <onetom> no, i boss is a very old friend of my father..
10:02:46 <onetom> he knows me since i was born
10:03:02 <onetom> i was also working 4 them during the civil service term
10:03:31 <onetom> but now this is my main &only occupation for 2 months
10:04:40 <onetom> & now rebol is my vision reforming the current php & java tainted minds working here..
10:05:44 <onetom> thinfu: chk out rebol. even the version w graphics support is only 700k..
10:06:01 <thinfu> which lang did you code the financial apps in?
10:06:25 <onetom> 1 exe & thats all, but knows the main internet protocols, allows u 2 create guis exteremely easily
10:06:28 <onetom> etc
10:06:41 <onetom> thinfu: sit down 1st ;)
10:07:19 <onetom> they r coding it in php+pg/pl+sql
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10:11:25 <onetom> btw, i have a son. he was born in dec05 2004.. ;)
10:11:46 <I440r> cool!!!!
10:12:11 <onetom> but we r not 2gether. its a long story.. khm :)
10:12:40 <I440r> but wait! you had sex!
10:12:43 <I440r> your not a real geek!
10:12:48 <onetom> :)
10:12:56 <thinfu> lol
10:13:03 <onetom> true enough. i have lots of sex
10:13:09 <thinfu> how old are you?
10:13:27 <onetom> w a wide range of grls ;)
10:13:30 <onetom> 28
10:13:30 * thinfu guesses 27
10:13:31 <thinfu> ah
10:13:37 <onetom> imean 27 :)
10:13:57 <onetom> gonna b 28 on jul13of2005
10:14:44 <thinfu> ah heh
10:15:41 <onetom> current grlfriends: a 40yrs old mom w 2 3yrs old daughters & an 8 yrs old son, a french-scottish girl (similar age as me) & the mother of me son (~30yrs old)
10:15:59 <thinfu> hmm, you're such a player
10:16:13 <onetom> & some more semi-ex girlfriends ;)
10:16:26 <thinfu> got a fresh pic of yourself?
10:16:30 <thinfu> i can show you my pics now
10:16:33 <thinfu> & prove i'm not a geek ;)
10:16:43 <onetom> hmm.. let me see...
10:19:36 <thinfu> http://thin.bespin.org/pics/
10:21:09 <onetom> no pics accessible @the moment i think.. they r behind a firewall
10:21:29 <thinfu> rebol looks nice
10:21:33 <thinfu> got it running in linux
10:22:20 <thinfu> perhaps retroforth will become similar to rebol
10:22:24 <thinfu> i.e have those abilities
10:22:38 <thinfu> to load up with a nice small graphical in windows or linux
10:22:41 <thinfu> or other oses
10:23:24 <onetom> http://mplayerhq.hu/~arpi/eu2004/fotok/35%20aug31%20to-olimpos.gr/p8310322.jpg
10:24:01 <onetom> found 1 (summer in europe. greece on that pic)
10:24:45 <I440r> where in greece
10:25:00 <thinfu> shaved your head eh?
10:25:21 <thinfu> didn't you have black hair?
10:25:38 <onetom> yup :)
10:26:18 <onetom> it was black, but its me fired headskin u see on the pic :)
10:26:26 <thinfu> :)
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10:34:06 <onetom> thinfu: ur handsome! like me: http://www.mplayerhq.hu/~arpi/eu2004/mplayer/2560/p8309032-onetom.jpg ;)
10:36:12 <thinfu> haha, thats a bit too close up :P
10:36:24 <thinfu> my monitor's not big enough
10:36:27 <thinfu> heh
10:37:24 <thinfu> oh i forgot to include a pic in that director
10:37:31 <thinfu> http://thin.bespin.org/pics/someass.jpg
10:41:04 <onetom> :) yumm
10:41:45 <madwork> Hey, baby... http://www3.sympatico.ca/ppridham/misc/images/me/floor_me.jpg
10:43:04 <thinfu> madwork: so romantic with that pillow!
10:43:25 <madwork> What pillow? That's my arm. :P
10:45:13 <thinfu> yeah same thing!
10:45:14 <thinfu> heh
10:45:24 <madwork> I have hair now though. :(
10:45:29 <thinfu> heh
10:45:35 <thinfu> i've grown my hair out long
10:45:48 <madwork> http://www3.sympatico.ca/ppridham/misc/images/me/kneelfam.JPG
10:45:52 <thinfu> its a few inches from my shoulders
10:45:58 <madwork> Yea, mine's getting longish. Not that long yet though.
11:14:19 <qFox> damn mad, you must be the youngest forther
11:14:21 <qFox> ;)
11:14:58 <thinfu> eh?
11:15:22 <qFox> [19:46:46] <madwork> http://www3.sympatico.ca/ppridham/misc/images/me/kneelfam.JPG <-- the kid in the middle cant be very old...
11:15:23 <qFox> :p
11:15:28 <qFox> come on, get a joke!
11:15:45 <qFox> this channel is going thru (yes thru) hell in a handbasket
11:21:25 <thinfu> ah i get it
11:21:37 <thinfu> it wasn't clear you were refering to that picture
11:27:19 <qFox> granted, the comment was half n hour after the message, but only 4 lines up :\
11:27:28 <qFox> ... 3
11:32:36 <madwork> qFox, I'm 32.
11:32:44 <qFox> :)
11:32:45 <madwork> HAHA. :P
11:32:52 <madwork> That kid is my kid. He's only about 3 there.
11:32:57 <qFox> :)
11:33:03 <qFox> figured so much
11:33:15 <Raystm2> Man, Ya'll sum ugly mofo's 
11:33:20 <Raystm2> Hey thinfu nice ass.
11:33:20 <madwork> Pshaw!
11:41:06 <saon> sup?
11:41:36 <Raystm2> nutin
11:41:37 <madwork> No thanks, I just had lunch.
11:42:13 <saon> heh
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11:46:30 <Raystm2> I think sonarman went down for another look.
11:52:34 <thinfu> LOL
11:53:27 <thinfu> thanks for the compliment about my ass
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13:06:07 <yome> Hi.
13:06:31 <yome> I have a small microcontroller here that I thought would come with MaxForth bundled (but it seems I have to pay extra for it).
13:06:42 <yome> Is there some kind of free replacement I might be able to use?
13:07:12 <yome> Uh, "small microcontroller" might not be the best way to describe it.
13:08:18 <yome> Well, it's a "MC9S12A256", 16 bit CPU, 12k of RAM
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13:10:34 <yome> If anyone has an idea, I'd be interested.
13:11:05 <madwork> Don't see any decent Google hits for that process and "Forth".
13:11:10 <madwork> processor
13:12:22 <yome> Ah, it
13:12:30 <yome> 's also called HCS12
13:13:09 <yome> Oh, it's 20 bucks.  Not too costly...
13:20:14 <madwork> Can't find anything free... why not port or write one. :)
13:22:52 <yome> eh :)
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14:01:13 <yome> Which Forth could be a good candidate for a port to a 16-bit microcontroller with 12k of RAM?  (the previously mentioned HCS12)
14:01:23 <yome> (Free Forth)
14:10:32 <madwork> Take a look here: http://www.forth.org/compilers.html
14:10:52 <yome> Will do.  Thanks madwork.
14:10:59 <madwork> np
14:15:03 <yome> I've read recently about some fundamental Forth books being 're-edited' or something like that.  Anybody got links to them?
14:15:28 <thinfu> just google for "starting forth"
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19:33:21 <zol1> 'morning
19:36:06 <TheBlueWizard> hiya zol1
19:36:30 <zol1> hi TheBlueWizard
19:36:52 * zol1 just got up
19:37:16 <zol1> half past 4 a.m. here
19:38:49 <TheBlueWizard> it's 10:40 PM here :)
19:38:59 <zol1> still one and a half hour until the baker at the corner opens 
19:40:46 <zol1> i haven't heard anything from mrreach for ages.. he has not been around frequently i reckon ?
19:41:01 <asymptote> anybody know a crypto library for forth?
19:41:26 <zol1> asymptote: checked the FSL ?
19:41:52 <asymptote> yeah, I saw an md5 but that was it
19:42:02 <TheBlueWizard> gee...I haven't seen mrreach in a long time now
19:42:03 <asymptote> I ended up writing my own sha1 and wouldn't you know the next day those bastards crack it
19:42:21 <zol1> ah. your fault.
19:42:33 <zol1> finally someone to blame
19:43:22 <thinfu> yeah
19:43:26 <thinfu> i was thinking about mrreach yesterday
19:43:38 <thinfu> he's always welcome here :~(
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19:57:09 <zol1> 'morning arke
19:57:20 <arke> hi speuler
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20:53:45 <TheBlueWizard> bye all
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21:10:49 <zol1> who of you is good at lecturing forth ?
21:11:39 <saon> i lecture it all the time
21:12:13 <zol1> good. noted
21:12:18 <saon> 'if you keep up with these recursive systems, you'll get stuck in an infinite loop eventually, and i won't be there to bail you out'
21:13:56 <Azure_Ag> What kind of lecturing?
21:14:12 <zol1> to the uninitiated ones
21:14:39 <Azure_Ag> I usually lecture the Generalized Gospel of Coolness.
21:15:00 <Azure_Ag> Basically along the lines of, "Forget MARKET SHARE, it'll make you think in ways you haven't though before.'
21:19:32 <zol1> is "thinking in ways you haven't though before" a bad thing ?
21:20:34 <Azure_Ag> Not at all.
21:21:14 <Azure_Ag> My usual contention is that even if you're only going to get paid to write Perl or Python, spending some time learning Forth or Scheme or Prolog or Haskell will make you much better at your Perl and Python or . . . Java.
21:22:06 <zol1> ah, right, gotcha. misunderstood
21:22:41 <Azure_Ag> Besides, if you're working on something where you don't have the vile tyranny of a business hierarchy dictating your toolchain, you can use whatever you want.
21:23:19 <Azure_Ag> So, if you're making something from scratch, especially if it's server software or completely standalone, you can use a good language.
21:25:59 <Herkamire> I certainly think that learning forth and working with it has improved my general programming skills greatly
21:26:48 <Herkamire> I've certainly learned a lot that doesn't work well in C or PHP or whatever
21:27:12 <Herkamire> But a lot of it is generally useful regardles of language
21:28:31 <Azure_Ag> Exactly.
21:29:51 <zol1> i'm off, i need the baker to take care of me
21:29:53 <Herkamire> also, I don't like C anymore
21:30:29 <Azure_Ag> I don't mind C for some things.
21:30:36 <Azure_Ag> For low-level Unixizing it can't really be eat.
21:31:01 <Azure_Ag> Heck, if you want to interface with most libraries of moderate complexity from Some Other  Language you have to write a bit of C glue.
21:31:19 <thinfu> i don't really go out of my way to advocate forth
21:31:31 <thinfu> i mean i tell people its my favorite language etc
21:31:44 <thinfu> and try to explain why concisely without boring them
21:31:51 <thinfu> and if they show some interest then i talk a bit more
21:32:03 <thinfu> but only like 2 ppl have shown some interest..
21:32:28 <Azure_Ag> Forth is probably my. . . second-favorite langauge actually.
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21:52:30 <Herkamire> Azure_Ag: what's your first?
21:53:33 <Herkamire> I have a hard time describing what I like about forth
22:02:47 <Azure_Ag> Scheme.
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22:26:02 <Azure_Ag> And, now, it's time for me to go Commune with my unconscious.
22:26:05 --- quit: Azure_Ag ("Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz-POP!")
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.02.21