00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.02.19 00:08:54 --- quit: Serg[GPRS] (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 00:22:12 --- join: skylan (~sjh@dialup-216-211-5-67.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 01:41:08 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 03:02:09 Hi 03:13:16 --- join: aum (~aum@60-234-138-239.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) joined #forth 03:13:23 Hi 06:01:19 --- quit: aum (Remote closed the connection) 06:32:32 hello guys 06:34:00 Hi 06:50:50 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 07:20:04 Hi Hi Hi, boyo roberto, you love to say Hi 07:32:47 07:30 i bought a 40gb hdd 3 years ago for 250 07:32:47 07:31 but it died a year ago.. 07:32:47 07:31 i just bought a 200gb hdd yesterday for 140 07:32:47 07:31 holy shit.. cheaper 07:32:47 07:31 gotta love technology.. 07:32:50 07:31 now i'm gonna have to multiboot everything.. 07:32:52 07:32 win98, win2k, win2003, freebsd, openbsd, netbsd, qnx, archlinux, slackware, LSF, plan9, skyos, beos, minix 07:32:55 07:32 am i forgettng any other oses? :P 08:00:53 cforth. 08:00:57 "obviously" 08:01:34 MS-DOS. 08:01:36 and dos6.22, win3.11, os2warp 08:01:45 >:) 08:02:03 heh 08:02:05 win95abc and d, winnt3.something, winnt4 08:02:12 how far do you want to go... 08:02:21 i was wondering about installing winnt4 08:02:45 my comp is PII 350mhz with 256 mb ram 08:03:05 you are weak like little girl! 08:03:08 i love privateer 08:03:21 dont worry, it can handle nt4... 08:03:39 yeah but the question is, should i install it? 08:03:54 whats the point in having so many OS'es anyways 08:03:55 Nope. 08:04:00 either be complete, or be a complete failure... 08:04:02 :p 08:04:02 i'm installing win2k to see what its like, and win2003 to compare it to win2k 08:04:20 and find out which runs faster.. 08:04:21 You still haven't said why you dislike Debian 08:05:04 whatever, i'll give it the ole college try 08:05:27 robert: have you ever installed any distros besides Debian? (redhat/mandrake doesn't count) 08:05:51 Yeah, some old, obscure variant called vectorLinux. 08:05:59 Why? 08:12:28 he's about to tell you u suck 08:12:54 ok, here's a question.. do you think there's a language out there that is better than forth, more minimalist, easier to code in, helps you simplify the problem at hand to a trivial implementation, is faster, etc? 08:15:03 thing is, most of us probably don't think so, even if we haven't really seen all the possible languages 08:15:18 slackware is like that 08:15:27 even tho i haven't tried out debian yet 08:15:43 slackware is the forth of distros in my current opinion 08:16:04 qFox: xD 08:16:08 a better question is a subjective oppinion (yes, oppinions are always subjective, thanks), so the question is .... stupid :\ 08:16:10 but i'll definitely give a bunch of distros a try 08:16:51 thinfu: The nice thing about Debian is the continuious installation process. You install a minimalist system, and then you easily extend it with a simple apt-get command. 08:16:58 A bit like Forth when you think of it ;) 08:17:08 qFox: opinions aren't so much subjective as driven by the values you hold 08:17:14 all arguments ultimately boil down to these values 08:17:29 ... you're stating oppinions are not subjective? 08:17:30 and to your philosophy 08:18:37 are the values a person holds subjective? if so, then their opinions are subjective.. 08:18:53 its such a cliche tho 08:18:55 maybe its wrong? 08:18:59 maybe its not subjective 08:19:00 :) 08:19:19 maybe... you'll excuse me while i laugh.. 08:19:56 thinfu: Something minimalist for you: http://www.wdr-1-bit-computer.talentraspel.de/ 08:20:19 laugh away, show yourself to be a closedminded fool unwilling to explore possibilities 08:22:01 robert: doesn't seem very interesting to me 08:22:38 robert: i'm not as much of a hardware guy as you are 08:22:39 closeminded fool"? 08:22:47 you're saying an oppinion isnt subjective 08:22:53 so it must be objective 08:22:53 thinfu: Well, maybe you could enjoy programming it? ;) 08:22:54 a fact 08:22:56 :s 08:23:02 qFox: i said no such thing 08:23:11 qFox: where's your reading comprehension? 08:23:17 robert: no not really 08:23:18 left it at home 08:23:51 either way, everyone has his own favorites, one might find forth great and fantastic, another might find java much better, or asm if you're talking small, whatever. 08:25:27 robert: only if it led to a product that was useful.. 08:25:41 that boosted productivity or saved time or whatever heh 08:25:44 Like your Forth programs? 08:25:57 hey, the irc client is mildly useful 08:26:11 I seriously doubt that. :) 08:26:13 i was gonna code some bot stuff into it 08:26:21 * robert pats irssi 08:26:26 heh :) 08:26:36 yeah but the irc client let you code in forth and irc at the same time! 08:26:42 I rarely code anything useful. 08:26:48 i know 08:27:01 you're more like the #osdev ppl 08:27:32 coding some OS for the sake of learning etc 08:27:41 rather than attempting to push the frontiers.. 08:27:54 hmm 08:27:59 no offense intended :/ 08:28:06 That would require a lot of effort. 08:28:23 And as long as Debian works I don't feel it's an important issue. 08:28:36 well i think it takes ideals 08:28:42 in order to push the frontiers of something.. 08:28:45 do you have any ideals? 08:28:59 maybe you'll push the frontiers in something else? 08:29:14 The ideals of an OS contradict each other. 08:29:22 i'm not talking OSes 08:29:27 i'm just talking about any sort of ideals 08:29:30 for any field 08:29:32 or interest 08:29:33 that you have 08:30:03 do you look beyond the now and see what is possible and desire to realise it? 08:30:15 Of course. 08:30:28 realise it = create it 08:30:36 what do you wish to create 08:30:43 what are your ideals.. 08:31:55 Not telling you! 08:32:33 But in the mean time, I'll try to build some interesting and cool projects. 08:34:44 do i motivate you or do you think i belittle you? 08:35:23 hmm 08:35:37 You couldn't possibly make me despise my work more, so that's OK. But I don't feel very motivated either. 08:40:21 "anything is possible" is a logical truth.. 08:41:08 "but why bother?" is an empirical truth 08:42:20 because productive achievement is man's means for happiness (& his purpose of life).. 08:42:37 except that trying to be productive can cause ppl to steal the efforts of your labor 08:42:41 re, taxes 08:42:52 and thus discourage you from being productive :) 08:45:09 the "why bother?" stance of today's young ppl seems to stem from the fact that they notice the cultural and intellectual dissonance in our world today.. 08:45:33 Actually, it's usually your bosses that steal your effort. 08:46:09 whether you work for a boss or for yourself is your choice 08:47:11 people work for others because they find it easier to go with the flow, they don't want to think to hard.. 08:47:46 While an elite (of which you should of course be part) deserves to get the goods? 08:47:59 Working "for yourself" doesn't mean you can't be part of an organization. 08:48:07 The question is how the organization looks. 08:48:16 no there is no elite or bosses or businessmen 08:48:35 its about productivity 08:48:38 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 08:48:38 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Herkamire 08:48:55 the more value a person renders to the world, the richer he's gonna get 08:49:33 do you want to steal from him and give the efforts of his labor & vision to someone that was too apathetic to create value for others? 08:49:53 if you steal from him then his motivation to be productive is greatly decreased 08:50:00 and then you have a loss 08:50:10 a deadweight economic loss 08:51:36 isn't it motivating to render value to the world? 08:51:39 for two reasons 08:52:05 1) you get rich quicker, and thus you don't have to work as much in the long run.. getting rich is "easier" in terms of the total sum of work over your lifetime 08:52:13 2) you provide value to the world and make the world a better place 08:52:46 (1) simply isn't true, while (2) contradicts your earlier argument that money is the only reason for motivation. 08:52:59 what earlier argument? 08:53:15 and how is 1 not true? 08:53:54 suppose you provide lots of value to the world and then retire in 5 years.. 08:53:54 7:50 < thinfu> if you steal from him then his motivation to be productive is greatly decreased 08:54:16 Although one should note that you use your own definition of stealing. 08:54:24 (2) is a SIDE BENEFIT 08:54:59 (1) is not true in reality. The one that work the hardest often get to work the longest as well, and get the lowest salaries. 08:55:04 ones* 08:55:14 salaries? 08:55:40 exactly 08:55:45 that illustrates my point 08:55:48 in the time this debate took you, you could've developped an application that would've made you a millionair. 08:56:03 If you weren't in fact an untermensch. 08:56:20 Which, by the law of the jungle, are condemned. 08:56:29 oh, well, that changes it all. 08:56:37 --- join: CaliforniaSux (CapStone@adsl-69-153-88-49.dsl.snantx.swbell.net) joined #forth 08:57:14 --- nick: CaliforniaSux -> danniken 08:57:32 my point was to get rich is easier than to not get rich.. and you just supported that statement, the ones that work the hardest (which includes longest) are often ppl that aren't working for themselves, and thus they don't get rich because they don't take risks etc 08:59:22 No, they don't get rich because someone else is taking the risks and money FOR them. 09:00:00 If the risk-taker (often a high executive) makes a mistake, the people below him are the ones getting fired. 09:00:21 shit you're thinking too much from a corporation perspective 09:01:08 Oh, sorry. If you're assuming some imaginary structure, please tell me in advance so that I don't mix reality into it. 09:01:11 do you know that 80%+ of the businesses in USA are small companies ? 09:01:24 and they provide more of the economy than the big businesses do? 09:01:31 Define small. 09:01:37 1-20 ppl 09:01:41 or thereabouts 09:01:49 1-20 employees 09:02:03 Then there are still employees. 09:02:34 well they can go and start their own bloody business if they wanted to 09:02:58 Nah, I'm sure people WANT to be exploited. 09:03:01 a job is trading an hour of their time for so many bucks per hour 09:03:04 Why else would they do so? 09:03:07 They're rational beings. 09:03:12 they aren't being exploited 09:03:21 they choose to trade an hour of their time for a few bucks 09:03:44 They choose that over robbing stores or starving. 09:04:12 Which isn't much of a choice 09:04:37 .. 09:05:30 So you think people choose low-paid jobs because they...don't want high salaries? 09:06:13 by saying salaries you're refering to working for a corporation 09:06:18 which still isn't the way to get rich 09:06:32 think of it this way 09:06:50 you aren't going to provide as much value as you possibly could if you work for one entity 09:06:56 Getting rich means that you get power over others. I don't think that's necessary at all. 09:07:08 but if you aren't tied to one entity, then you can provide value to multiple ppl 09:07:17 i.e. make one product and then distribute copies of it to ppl 09:07:54 hmm 09:08:16 i think you're analysing this discussion from a big corporation perspective.. 09:08:22 hence the mention about power.. 09:08:30 but 09:08:45 No 09:08:54 i should mention i don't agree with whats going on with walmart/big businesses/enron/corrupt executives 09:09:03 er 09:09:05 wallstreet 09:09:08 s/walmart/wallstreet 09:09:09 heh 09:09:23 In any society where you can get "rich" (as in having much more resources than others), it brings you power over others. 09:10:23 and it reduces the power others have over you.. 09:10:50 Right. 09:10:58 but of course, one person having more resources than the next person, that's a fact of reality 09:11:10 and also irrelevant 09:11:31 But on society as a whole, it means that more people will have large parts of their lives decided by others. 09:11:37 It's not irrelevant. 09:11:49 And you don't have to encourage power differences. 09:11:57 yes it is. ultimately everything boils down to morality 09:12:07 and the simple fact of the matter is that it is immoral to coerce another person 09:12:09 or to steal from them 09:12:34 and it doesn't matter if its 1 person mugging the other person 09:12:39 or if its a group of 100 09:12:43 Hah. I assume you know the variety of definitions of "stealing"? 09:12:45 or if its 1 representing 25 million 09:13:11 democracy doesn't make it moral to steal 09:13:27 and anyways, democracy doesn't work 09:13:37 as you'll see :) 09:14:26 "it is immoral to coerce another person" this of course includes stealing 09:14:26 And the alternative that you propose is..? 09:14:29 stealing requires coercion 09:14:32 * danniken wonders if he is "stealing" when he buys stuff for a penny and sells it for a buck on eBay 09:14:49 danniken: nope 09:14:59 :) 09:15:05 you're providing value to the persons that buy it off ebay 09:15:06 Yep. 09:15:18 the alternative is simple, allow no coercion 09:15:22 The just thing would be to sell it for a penny. 09:15:40 robert: then he has no reason to take the effort to sell it on ebay 09:15:50 So? 09:15:51 might be just but then I'd be donating my time as a provider 09:15:54 wtf?! 09:16:09 omfg 09:16:24 i cannot believe you said that robert 09:16:30 might as well go to work every day and then refund my paycheck with that logic 09:16:30 do you truely believe that? 09:16:37 I know, you're in a very difference world. ;) 09:16:46 robert: is there a microeconomics course at your university? 09:16:58 robert: are you a socialist? 09:17:03 Probably, there are lots of departments. 09:17:16 danniken: No, a nazi, what do I look like? 09:17:27 Nazi's are socialists 09:17:31 Haha. 09:17:52 They're as much socialists as stalinists are. 09:18:15 * danniken <<======== greedy capitalist pig 09:18:21 I figured. 09:18:39 i was a socialist/communist until i learned economics 09:18:48 Quark the ferengi is my idol 09:18:57 LOL 09:19:24 * danniken was a socialist until the drugs wore off and my brain started working again 09:19:38 robert: are you/have you taken any liberal courses? 09:19:41 thinfu: Well, I remember when you tried to use economics to prove that taxes are bad. The problem was that you ASSUMED capitalism in proving that it was best unregulated. 09:19:58 "liberal courses", meaning? 09:20:10 sociology or psychology or history or any of that 09:20:23 No. 09:20:29 Except of course in high school. 09:20:33 ok 09:20:50 Then all of those, if that counts. It was about a year ago 09:21:02 well the thing is capitalism really exist in this world more or less 09:21:12 it was around briefly in the 19th century in USA 09:21:47 but then growing controls made it a non-capitalistic country.. 09:22:03 * danniken eyes I440r and wonders if Markey Poo is alive 09:23:14 robert: ultimately it isn't about the economy, or production of value, etc.. its all about morality.. is it moral to coerce a person? to coerce a person & take his production and distribute it to others? 09:23:27 for the "greater good" or "democratic process" etc? 09:23:28 I agree with you there, in the end it's about morals. 09:23:47 Which shows that economy isn't an unbiased "science", but just some conclusions you draw out of a given moral system. 09:24:17 So many of these conclusions are entirely invalid if you don't agree to all parts of the moral system they' 09:24:19 capitalism is the side effect of a system where you don't have ppl coercing each other.. when they enter into win-win agreements 09:24:20 re based on. 09:24:50 and the fact is the most value is produced when ppl are free to make win-win agreements with each other with no coercion involved 09:25:05 Win-win is an interesting word. You can exchange it for 50-50 or 99-1. 09:25:24 you're absolutely right about that 09:25:27 In reality it tends to be closer to 99-1. 09:25:34 but if its win-win, then 99-1 isn't a bad thing 09:25:36 robert: I like it when it is win-win a little more :) 09:25:54 if a person isn't getting a benefit out of a trade, then he's not gonna do it 09:27:00 I440r: You alive here Mark? 09:27:59 I think this is a good time to remind you that a socialist reference system is completely different. The moral values involved state that people should have a right to a decent living, care, public service of various kinds. That's the FIRST law. But as long as it doesn't conflict with those basic value, the principle is to let people do what they want as long as they don't hurt others. 09:28:06 brb 09:29:08 back 09:29:24 but then where do you get the money/production to provide everyone with a certain standard of living? 09:29:30 you have to steal it off the ppl that work harder.. 09:29:33 or smarter 09:29:34 robert: unfortunately the socialist value system is in direct conflict with itself by its nature and results in as much oppression and demoralization through its enforcement of its values as any system it attempts to replace. 09:30:14 * danniken is also a member of the vast right wong conspiracy 09:30:16 :) 09:30:34 right wIng that is hehehehe 09:30:50 I don't think so. But of course, a socialist system assumes socialists. 09:31:04 Just trying to enforce socialism on people will fail. 09:31:05 the right wOng group is in ChInA 09:31:27 oooh, thats the same for capitalism, you need some ppl that won't coerce each other :P 09:31:55 You also need stupid people. 09:32:19 useful idiots are useful on both sides of the aisle :) 09:32:37 hi dan 09:32:43 sometimes idiots can be usefull 09:32:43 MARK!!!!!!!!!!! 09:32:45 MARK!!!!!!!!!!! 09:32:46 its interesting you think capitalism is about exploitation 09:32:47 MARK!!!!!!!!!!! 09:32:53 mostly they are just pains in the ass :) 09:32:58 but isn't that what socialism and communism REALLY about? 09:32:59 hi :) 09:33:00 hehehe 09:33:06 thinfu: What? 09:33:12 you at work? 09:33:24 robert: socialism is about exploitation/coercion 09:33:38 stealing from each other to provide an equal living standard for everyone 09:33:39 no im at home 09:33:43 u need me at work ? 09:34:05 no. Was just curious. I'm at home too but I'm working Fort Lewis 09:34:10 thinfu: What I call giving, you call stealing. 09:34:29 not everyone will want to give 09:34:34 they still having problems ? 09:35:02 thinfu: I repeat what I said earlier: socialism requires socialists. 09:35:05 just trying to unravel Jung's spagetti to get this damned PBCOM status thing fixed 09:35:28 thinfu: If you don't agree with the moral basis, of course you don't like the system. 09:35:54 thinfu: That's why socialists dislike capitalism, they don't agree with the moral system used. 09:36:02 pbcom is not roberts is it ? 09:36:16 i thunked that was toms... no ? 09:36:39 yes PBCOM is his. He did not originally write it but it was his responsibility until I got involved 09:36:48 haha 09:36:50 PB2000 is Tom's 09:37:00 i want to learn that code, i HAVE to 09:37:07 and lccom tim 09:37:14 TOO even 09:37:15 grr 09:37:22 i cant freekin type at all today lol 09:37:33 it is pretty straight4ward - just some of italy's finest if you know what I mean ;) 09:37:34 i need to learn all the comm's except safenetcomm 09:37:44 lol 09:38:16 you should check out pbcomclient.pas - it simulates a pb2000 talking to a PB2K 09:38:16 robert: funny cuz i've said similar things about capitalism, that it requires ppl that won't coerce each other 09:39:05 i havent looked at ANY of the sorces yet 09:39:12 thinfu: Right. Which makes capitalism immoral to those who WANT equality. 09:39:30 i wouldnt mind you helping me set up delphi and a build environment so i can build the entire product 09:39:35 it is pretty eye opening - shows what the hardware wants to see and vice versa 09:39:42 yea i know 09:40:02 I will do that. I make changes to what Jung and the others set up but it is still valid and produces a viable build 09:40:08 its impossible to reverse engineer the protocols by looking at the firmware... which is totally freekin stupid 09:40:12 the only ppl that want equality are the people that think they have the right to tell millions of people what to do, and to pass laws etc 09:41:18 thinfu: But sometimes that IS right. If I don't want people being convenient and dumping mercury in the woods, I sure am going to tell them. 09:41:49 thats just a commons problem 09:42:00 i dont have ANY coffee here! 09:42:02 PANIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 09:42:10 I440r: hit the panic button! 09:42:20 Anyway, I don't see the connection. Why does equality mean that you (alone?) have to pass a law decides what millions are supposed to do? 09:42:49 that is bad!! We are connected Mark! I just stepped away to make a fresh pot and was coming back to yum it up about that when you reported no coffee! 09:42:50 that isnt equality, thats dictatorship 09:43:04 * danniken pours a pot of Yuban into the keyboard for Mark 09:43:05 thinfu: I prefer decisions regarding everyone made by a majority of the affected, than by some executive or politician in the top. 09:43:16 I440r: Exactly 09:43:35 all people ARE equal, but they will never be treated as such 09:43:47 robert: are you willing go out and work 20 hours (tilling the crop fields or something) and then give the products of your labour to 5 homeless people? 09:43:48 because of the human factor 09:43:55 would you be willing to do that right now? 09:44:16 every week, work 20 hours to produce food 09:44:22 thinfu: we all do that whether we like it or not if we follow the law and pay taxes 09:44:22 and then give it to the homeless 09:44:26 20 hours a week sounds OK. 09:44:34 But I can't see why that would be needed. 09:44:43 * danniken will give the homeless what they really want - WINE. 09:44:50 People work 8 hours/day now, and still people are unemployed. 09:45:01 Which shows that the work force is there. 09:45:09 well suppose you get together a ton of socalists 09:45:10 and start a country 09:45:20 * danniken wishes he could get away with working 8 hours a day - and so does Mark :) 09:45:29 hah 09:45:51 im happy to work what ever they need... i just wish i could freekin DO the job 09:45:52 what you're going to find is that some people won't work as hard as others 09:45:53 lol 09:45:56 what did you do last week Mark? 120 hours? 09:46:14 i dont think i did that much did i ? 09:46:17 thinfu: Of course not. You can't expect very old or young to be extremely productive. 09:46:21 damn close! 09:46:36 thinfu: And people who are plain dumb won't teach math efficiently 09:47:08 thinfu: And like you say, some people are more lazy. But you example assumes than 80% of the population does NOTHING. 09:47:16 Which is totally unrealistic. 09:47:23 robert: actually imagine the country is just agrarian based 09:47:28 * danniken needs to start the VPN - probably will get disconnected BRB 09:47:43 so the only work to do is grow food, animals, build houses, etc 09:48:03 hehe im going to be teaching our network lady Linux :) hehe 09:48:06 Yay, back in the middle ages. 09:48:14 they want an NNTP server set up 09:48:15 i never said anythinga about 80% of the population doing nothing 09:48:16 What's your point? 09:48:49 that there will be a lot of freeloaders 09:48:53 people that can do the work but don't 09:49:04 and how will you feel about that 09:49:09 when you are putting in extra hours of work 09:49:15 to keep them fed 09:49:32 Annoyed as hell. 09:50:41 But for this to become a serious proble, one out of four (or even more, in fact) would have to just lie in their beds and do nothing the entire days. 09:50:42 and perhaps one way you'll respond is to decrease the amount of hours you work 09:51:05 Why would I? My job still has to be done. 09:51:15 no it doesn't 09:51:19 someone else will keep you fed 09:51:28 --- quit: danniken (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:51:31 No, because eventually nobody would work. 09:51:46 --- join: danniken (CapStone@adsl-69-153-88-49.dsl.snantx.swbell.net) joined #forth 09:51:59 I realize that, and I think you do as well? 09:52:04 damn VPN is down must be having problems with the wire at work 09:52:20 So please explain why half the population would NOT realize something that obvious. 09:52:22 your ircing thru vpn to work ? 09:52:35 robert half the population doesnt care 09:53:02 50% voter turnout would be amazing 09:53:04 I was trying to get the vpn up so I could get to the company email but it is not working 09:53:16 except in chicago where they get over 100% voter turnout 09:53:22 :D 09:53:23 hehehe 09:53:24 they let the dead and convicts vote there 09:53:33 Chicago and Iraq under Hussein 09:53:45 And North Korea. 09:53:57