00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.02.03
00:38:31 --- log: started forth/05.02.03
00:38:31 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth
00:38:31 --- topic: 'Forth: One language, many dialects'
00:38:31 --- topic: set by crc on [Sat Jan 22 13:32:27 2005]
00:38:31 --- names: list (clog Topaz warpzero arke saon Fractal madwork SeaForth @crc skylan spike_anarchy)
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09:36:18 <lopta> Is there a good Forth for MacOS X?
09:38:31 <segher> sure.  try gforth.
09:38:44 <manuel_> the fink version is kind of old, though
09:38:45 <segher> or did you want something with GUI stuff etc?
09:39:06 <segher> manuel_: the normal distribution compiles out-of-the-box
09:39:08 <lopta> segher: I don't know, is there one with an interface to Aqua?
09:39:11 <manuel_> segher: yes :}
09:39:27 <manuel_> lopta: you can use gforth from emacs
09:39:39 <lopta> manuel_: I don't like emacs
09:39:43 <manuel_> ok
09:39:44 <manuel_> ;}
09:39:46 <segher> lopta: i'm working on one, sort-of -- the GUI is only for debugging, though
09:40:40 <lopta> segher: Come to think of it, for the first program that I would write, support in "Terminal" would be adequate
09:41:04 <manuel_> gforth is ok, then
09:41:05 <lopta> ...although it would be nice if I could, from my Forth program, ask terminal to resize a little.
09:41:16 <manuel_> you can write escape commands to the terminal
09:41:24 <manuel_> there is some code to do this in gforth, i guess
09:41:31 <manuel_> in vt100.fs and ansi.fs or so
09:42:35 <lopta> I wonder if I shouldn't use an interface to curses or termcap instead?
09:43:06 <manuel_> it's definitely more complex
09:43:21 <lopta> manuel_: but more portable?
09:43:40 <manuel_> will it run on a not-vt100 compliant terminal?
09:44:13 <lopta> manuel_: depends how I write it.  I would like to give people the option
09:44:34 <lopta> I may just stick to Glass Teletype for the first version
09:44:38 <samc_> lopta: Mops
09:44:42 <lopta> ...but later it would be nice to have more scope.
09:44:53 <lopta> samc_: is Mops a kind of Forth?
09:44:58 <samc_> yes
09:45:07 <manuel_> well maybe the option of redefining RESIZE is easier :}
09:45:55 <lopta> manuel_: is RESIZE a word in Forth, or are you proposing that I use that as a handy place to insert platform dependent code later?
09:46:26 <manuel_> lopta: the second one :}
09:46:47 <samc_> http://www.powermops.com/
09:46:50 <lopta> manuel_: it's a good suggestion
09:46:56 <manuel_> RESIZE would be something like
09:46:58 <lopta> samc_: thanks, I'll check that out now
09:47:05 <manuel_> : RESIZE ESCAPE-CODE COORDS ;
09:47:28 <manuel_> and porting this to something like HP terminal would be redefining ESCAPE-CODE
09:47:56 <manuel_> which i think is simpler than loading curses, calling initscr() and all the bloat that goes with it :}
09:49:08 <lopta> manuel_: or I could RESIZE spurt escape codes for now, and then worry about a curses interface later.
09:49:26 <manuel_> yeah :}
09:49:31 * lopta grins
09:49:37 <manuel_> nothing beats working code
09:51:36 <lopta> I may break out Forth when I get home.
09:51:43 <samc_> lopta, if you do use it you can discuss things on comp.lang.forth.mac which may as well be comp.lang.forth.mops
09:51:55 <lopta> samc_: thanks
09:52:10 <lopta> I'll have to dust off my usenet client ;-)
09:52:11 <samc_> np
09:52:45 <manuel_> mops is cool
09:52:50 <manuel_> thank you samc
09:53:12 <lopta> What forth should I use on System 7 (on 68k)?
09:53:21 <samc_> mops
09:53:26 <samc_> :)
09:53:47 <manuel_> cool
09:55:37 <lopta> wow...
09:56:15 <lopta> It didn't occur to me that mops might work on System 7 too
09:58:50 <lopta> Anyone have any thoughts on PocketForth?
09:59:08 <samc_> I've made a few things in it
09:59:39 <lopta> samc_: what did you think of it?
10:01:06 <samc_> I liked it, you have to make toolbox calls in asm but that isn't too hard
10:02:19 <lopta> sounds scary (not asm, toolbox :-)
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10:07:28 <zoly> g'day
10:08:35 <lopta> mornin' zoly
10:08:45 <samc_> hello
10:10:01 <zoly> hi lopta, samc_
10:11:07 <zoly> permanent storage in jsforth is not far. it can write cookies with arbitrary name and value already 
10:11:16 <zoly> jut busy trying to read them in again
10:20:10 <lopta> I have to go.
10:20:14 <lopta> thanks for you help guys
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10:22:02 <zoly> yes!
10:22:29 <samc_> that's not nice
10:22:40 <samc_> :p
10:34:25 <zoly> there seems to be a limit to cookie size ... that would mean, many cookies per forth screen ...
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12:40:26 <qFox> cookie? Forth? ehr... 
12:44:13 <zoly> right. cookies as mass storage for forth blocks
12:54:43 <zoly> just about to connect "savebuffer" to "setcookie" ...
13:03:00 <manuel_> re
13:08:14 <arke> hi
13:08:26 <zoly> hi
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13:27:50 <zoly> i'm glad i'm not often working with a language, which requires lots of nested parenthesis. i keep forgetting to pair them .. the number of times my load was aborted because of missing closing parenthesis is enormous ...
13:28:29 <arke> :)
13:28:33 <arke> I440r: greetings.
13:28:41 <arke> I440r: I'd like to propose soemthing, if you have the time.
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13:29:47 <samc_> zoly, write the bracket first then back-arrow
13:30:12 <zoly> i keep requiring new ones while going
13:30:26 <samc_> huh?
13:30:59 <zoly> foo(   )    , then insert       foo(   bar(    )  )  and so on
13:32:06 <aum> mornin'
13:32:31 <I440r> hi
13:32:41 <zoly> right
13:32:51 <zoly> my first screen as been saved to cookie drive
13:33:29 <samc_> zoly, doesn't matter
13:33:43 <zoly> that's more filigran stuff than i thought
13:34:03 <zoly> or maybe i'm just not fit today
13:34:34 <arke> :)
13:35:16 <qFox> you could implement single if's not requiring a jump target on the stack
13:35:36 <qFox> just needs 2 items, one for the target, another one to identify it as an if jump target
13:35:37 <qFox> :p
13:35:45 <samc_> type: foo open-bracket close-bracket back-arrow bar open-bracket close-bracket back-arrow ... right?
13:36:05 <samc_> whats filigran?
13:36:21 <zoly> the details
13:36:36 <zoly> like, semicolons working as delimiters
13:36:50 <zoly> i happen to have semicolons in sources ...
13:37:49 <zoly> oh, i see. the word.   filigree, it is
13:38:29 <zoly> ...composed of fine wire and used chiefly in decorating gold and
13:38:29 <zoly>      silver to which the wire is soldered, being arranged in
13:38:29 <zoly>      designs frequently of a delicate and intricate arabesque
13:38:29 <zoly>      pattern.
13:38:56 <zoly>  Hence: Fanciful; unsubstantial
13:39:27 <samc_> I see
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14:22:38 * aum reimplements his multitasking module to support dynamic task creation
14:23:01 <aum> the question is whether to implement 'spawn'-type primitive, or something like 'fork'
14:23:49 <zoly> cookie storage backend seems to work :)
14:23:56 <aum> and if I do 'fork', the question is whether to copy the parent task's stacks into the child task's stack
14:24:35 <aum> zily: does this mean that jsforth saves/restores sessions?
14:24:51 <aum> zoly, sorry
14:26:05 <zoly> well, binary data must be emcoded, as far i can only write asciis.
14:26:33 <zoly> thus, screens, not blocks
14:27:30 <zoly> but it means that copied or modified sources can be kept on your machine
14:27:57 <aum> broken up into n cookies?
14:28:09 <zoly> 1 cookie per screen
14:28:27 <aum> don't some browsers have small cookie size limits, eg 512 bytes?
14:28:41 <zoly> wasn't size what was biting me, but the cookie delimiting semicolon
14:28:48 <zoly> no idea.
14:29:01 <zoly> if that's the case, i'll have to fragment
14:29:09 <zoly> this is trial and error
14:29:16 <aum> better test this with mozilla, netscape, opera, ie, konqueror, lynx, links, dillo, amaya...
14:29:25 <zoly> dillo = no js
14:29:29 <zoly> luynx = no js
14:29:36 <zoly> links no 
14:30:07 <zoly> firefox, mozilla, netscape, konqueror, safari, opera and ie are the ones tested on
14:30:49 <zoly> (there's more compatibilty issues than max cookie size)
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14:35:02 <zoly> btw, the version i'm working in is on-line all the time (i'm working on it on the net, on the version linked to on the wiki)
14:37:14 <zoly> (saved blocks are session cookies, not persistent right now - they'll be gone once the browser is closed)
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16:16:16 <crc> Hi all
16:17:15 <saon> heya crc
16:17:25 <saon> what're you up to?
16:17:46 <crc> Working on the website for the company I work for
16:17:52 <crc> They moved the deadline again :(
16:18:12 <crc> Now they want something to show to vendors and the managers by Tuesday.
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16:18:46 <saon> yikes
16:19:21 <crc> It *was*  originally supposed to be showable by the 22nd
16:19:37 <saon> wow, that's a pretty serious move
16:19:38 <crc> The actual deployment was slated for April 1
16:19:44 <crc> Now it's March 1 :(
16:19:58 <crc> Yeah
16:20:04 * crc is not happy with them
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16:23:16 <crc> Hi scope 
16:23:30 <scope> hey
16:23:38 <crc> what's new?
16:23:52 <scope> trying to figure out why my username is what it is
16:26:16 <crc> My username is almost always crc...
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16:28:54 <crc> I should rewrite the page using Forth once they approve the design...
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18:44:52 <zoly> t'is empty here
18:45:34 * zoly should start learning C one day
19:02:35 <crc> goodnight
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19:09:20 <arke> C = ewww
19:10:08 <zoly> so are tax offices
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19:11:30 <arke> :D
19:12:07 <zoly> doing a count of number of different posters on c.l.f.: numbers decreased a lot in the last years.  i don't need to do a count here, it says so. 
19:12:25 <zoly> now, doing a count of number of forth related projects ...
19:13:57 <zoly> i got another metric, but just through a period of about 2 years: wiki visitor numbers
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19:30:47 <snowrichard> hello
19:35:15 <zoly> hi
19:35:59 <snowrichard> doing ok?
19:36:16 <zoly> depends
19:38:20 <zoly> i expect this to be correct bahaviour:  empty-buffers    0 buffer   0 block   \  will not read block 0 from mass storage. right ?
19:39:48 <snowrichard> I don't know :) 
19:40:07 <zoly> i don't want anyone to sue me because of damaged disk data :)
19:40:36 <zoly> or for cookie corruption
19:40:58 <snowrichard> that's why the GPL says "there is no warranty" I guess :) 
19:43:07 <zoly> i do have added a disclaimer, trying to excempt me from any consequences for damage.
19:44:04 <zoly> but there seem to be unbelievable cases of court decisions
19:44:39 <zoly> i can't tell whether some of those are just grossly exaggerated
19:45:20 <snowrichard> I don't know.  It seemed riduculous to me that someone could sue McDonalds for serving hot coffee... :) 
19:45:49 <zoly> i read one about a house owner. he had an motor garage door, with remote control. there was no handle to open it from the inside
19:46:12 <zoly> and the door to the house had a snap lock, only to open from the house
19:46:31 <zoly> now, a burglar, trying to get out, got trapped in the garage
19:46:49 <snowrichard> and he didn't have the remote for the door ?
19:46:49 <zoly> what i read is, that he sued successfully
19:47:53 <zoly> if there was one, tucked away for such a case, he could have sued because the batteries were empty
19:49:05 <snowrichard> cool animation on this HP blade server commercial :) 
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