00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.01.31 00:24:46 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving") 00:25:48 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 00:25:49 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Herkamire 00:35:30 --- quit: Herkamire ("bed") 00:54:38 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 01:28:30 --- join: Topaz (~top@cerberus.saywell.net) joined #forth 02:32:45 --- quit: ez4 ("Quitting!") 03:05:26 --- join: eskimo_r (~nr@219.83.19.40) joined #forth 04:18:45 if i use QUIT to exit when an error happens, is there a way to catch that in my "top-level loop" 04:18:49 for example: 04:19:26 : MAIN BEGIN READ-BARCODE GET-PRICE UPDATE-ACCOUNT AGAIN ; 04:19:36 if i quit in one of the three words, i will go outside the loop 04:19:46 should i use THROW instead of QUIT? 04:41:53 --- join: Svrog (~Svrog@ppp1C1A.dsl.pacific.net.au) joined #forth 04:51:27 --- quit: aum () 05:30:13 --- quit: Svrog (" WOW! This IRC Client ownz! HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-") 06:39:36 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@modem-134.nyc-tc03b.fcc.net) joined #forth 06:41:28 hi wizard 06:43:30 hiya manuel_ 07:08:14 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 07:08:15 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Herkamire 07:09:36 hiya Herkamire 07:10:53 hi herkamier 07:10:59 herm, herkamire 07:11:43 if i have a list of barcode - price entries, which are permanent 07:11:50 would this be a correct way of entering them ? 07:11:51 http://paste.lisp.org/display/5392#2 07:11:59 wrt memory allocationetc.. 07:12:00 ? 07:12:08 i'm really not sure about this ... :} 07:12:08 --- join: samc (~sam@203-114-131-60.inspire.net.nz) joined #forth 07:12:33 hi samc 07:13:12 hello 07:13:57 hi guys :) 07:36:16 --- quit: TheBlueWizard (Nick collision from services.) 07:36:38 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@modem-150.nyc-tc03b.FCC.NET) joined #forth 08:03:38 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp01375108pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 08:12:57 --- quit: Topaz ("Leaving") 08:42:37 --- join: I440r_ (mark4@216-110-82-59.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 09:01:06 --- join: RangerElf (1000@148.243.205.205) joined #forth 09:01:10 helo. 09:03:49 hiya 09:10:12 * manuel_ feels like when he was 10, sitting in front of qbasic 09:23:31 --- join: ianp (~ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 09:26:16 yeah, we all been there... when we were 10 09:26:17 :p 09:26:38 :} 09:37:44 qFox: ...banging on qbasic... 09:39:55 you havent been around here very long, have you 09:39:56 :p 09:40:14 who, me? 09:40:26 aye you 09:41:01 on #forth , you're right; programming, for a while now. 09:41:09 i did mean forth :) 09:42:32 i missed out on the hacking qbasic while 10 thing 09:43:02 slava: we've all been 10 sitting in front of qbasic. :-) 09:43:40 i've never used qbasic 09:44:40 slava: OK, you're excused then. ;-) 10:04:57 gw-basic then? :} 10:05:19 when i was 10, i was hacking hypercard on a mac 10:07:27 when I was 10, Apple II doesn't exist! And I remember being very curious about this strange Casio calculator (it was a horizontal thing).... 10:07:44 rather than the standard vertical thing :) 10:12:00 when I was 8 I was hacking (if you can call it that) on a zx81; at 10 on a c64 (what a sweet machine). 10:12:31 * TheBlueWizard loves C64....indeed such a smash-cool 8-bit machine 10:13:10 only if it can support simple 16 bit math and pointer arithmetic it would be even nicer 10:13:32 Well, the 6510 took risciness to an extreme. 10:17:27 um...no, not at all. True RISC philosophy includes using LOAD/STORE instruction for memory accesses only 10:18:07 ok, i now have my barcode database as a linked list in memory, and can add new entries when scanning them with the scanner 10:18:13 how would i go about writing them to disk? 10:18:17 the system is fbsd + gforth 10:18:49 in factor, you'd use the . word ;) 10:18:55 would i do some binary format? 10:19:21 slava: ok, i'll have a look at it sometimes later, when i've grown accustomed to forth :} 10:19:41 no; . prints the object at the top of the stack in a form that is valid factor syntax 10:20:04 TheBlueWizard: I don't think RISC philosophy had been born yet, it just was a reduced-instruction-set computer. :-) 10:20:18 the binary question was still in the forth context, sorry for the confusion 10:21:09 sorry 10:21:27 :} 10:22:03 IBM developed the RISC philosophy and built an early RISC machine in late 70s (I forgot what it was called)...and the paper was written espousing te RISC philosophy...yes, there is such a philosophy 10:23:59 OK then, you win :-) 10:24:49 * TheBlueWizard savagely mauls RangerElf with a link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISC 10:24:52 :) 10:25:22 he he he he... man, I missed IRC badly. :-) 10:26:21 heh...but the general idea of 6502 being somewhat minimalistic in its approach is correct though 10:27:43 back in that time, I would've given an arm for a 16bit pointer addressing mode, like the z80. I first learned z80 asm, so the 6510 always seemed like it required a bunch of workarounds. 10:28:04 But it blazed. 10:30:31 yeah....I read somewhere that someone analyzed the Z80 architecture and its clock cycles in an attempt to understand why it was so slow (despite the higher clock rate), and he determined it actually used 4-bit ALU (6502 has 8-bit ALU). This sounds plausible to me 10:32:41 ouch... that seems like a rather brain-damaged design decision... seeing that everything that needs any kind of calculation has to go through there. :-( 10:33:18 * TheBlueWizard nods 10:33:46 Z80 in a way is also neat...but it feels bulky somehow 10:35:37 I liked it though; maybe because I cut my asm teeth on it. 10:36:58 yeah...the first experience is always to be treasured ;) 10:37:23 :-) 10:38:27 After that, I got a C= Amiga... man, it was sweet... and then I discovered the 68K's assembly language... wow! 10:39:58 hehe...I also have Amiga (two of them, in fact) 10:41:37 * TheBlueWizard used to dabble in Amiga assembly stuff, among other things 10:43:08 That was a sweet machine; I can't remember ever seeing a more tightly-designed general-purpose computer in my life. 10:43:18 Alas, commodore didn't know how to market it. :-( 10:45:29 yup....it was truly ahead of its time....and the C= mgmt was a bunch of world class boneheads...they did not understand Amiga; they didn't market it well at all, and so many other stupid moves they made (like telling the AAA graphics developers to cancel that project, when it was only a week from the completion!!!) 10:46:45 yeesh... makes you want to cut your veins with a celery stick... :-( 10:47:19 I suppose that happens when your president is hell-bent on trying to sell the company piece-meal. :( 10:50:42 what's even more bizarre is that the Amiga line was still profitable, but C= executives tried to sell C= PC machines (which it was losing money hand over fist on)....in fact the CEO (Irving Gould) practically drove C= into the ground...astounding!!! 10:55:25 Indeed, very much so. 10:57:03 I learned several lessons from seeing the wreck of C= 10:59:26 Such as? 10:59:34 c 10:59:40 ooops.. damn, wrong window :-) 11:02:19 (1) focus on cash making units rather than on money losing units (of course it is necessary to take losses in the beginning, but if it turned out that it is not getting anywhere, cut it out), (2) manage the projects well (e.g. don't be wasteful in investing...in other words, don't cancel the project when it is so damn close to finishing), (3) Bill Gates was right, unfortunately: marketing is everything 11:02:32 among other lessons I learned 11:04:27 I believe, profoundly, that Bill Gates' is only right because of one thing: people are mostly computer-ignorant. 11:04:41 why is that? 11:05:05 Because, people are lazy and don't like to engage their brain-cells. 11:05:24 "it doesn't turn over" they say. 11:06:16 Another one is that people are intimidated by computers; the normal rules about "learn to use and apply your tools" don't apply to computers, for some reason. 11:08:06 I don't understand that point of view. 11:08:36 but I'm a programmer, so I might be biased (just a bit though). 11:10:06 indeed, you can't take an interest in everything 11:10:42 --- join: segher (~segher@blueice4n1.de.ibm.com) joined #forth 11:30:54 --- quit: segher ("Leaving") 11:32:39 well, gotta go...bye all 11:32:48 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 11:34:30 people choose windows because it's the only one they know anything about 11:34:38 hi Herkamire 11:34:44 hi slava 11:34:50 Herkamire, i started coding a simple GUI in factor 11:35:15 193 lines of code so far ;) 11:35:31 Herkamire, so they don't choose 11:36:27 mac or linux or whatever is this big risk 11:36:49 they're not going to shell out $2000 or even $500 for a computer that they're not sure about 11:37:18 sure, lots of people have heard that windows is pretty bad, but they know it works, and they know they can work it. 11:37:45 like when I'm in some distant city. 11:37:50 I often eat at Subway. 11:38:53 sure, I prefer local shops that make really good sandwitches, but I don't know which are good, so I go with the safe thing, Subway, which I know will be cheap and leave me feeling fairly healthy. 11:40:39 Where I'm highly knowledgable (my home town) I places that taste better, are cheaper, and leave me feeling better. 11:40:51 when I was in school it was my peers and not their parents that influenced the type of computer the household bought and they didn't get a mac because that's what the schools used (and old ones at that), I think this was an underestimated influence. 11:41:56 of course pirating games was the formost 11:42:07 heh 11:43:58 I recall someone gossiping something like "DorkX actually bought gameY" to which everyone laughed 12:24:22 :-D 13:03:40 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 14:55:04 --- join: zoly (~l@ppp-62-245-160-137.mnet-online.de) joined #forth 14:55:42 g'day 14:57:46 --- join: Topaz (~top@cerberus.saywell.net) joined #forth 14:59:06 crc, awake ? 14:59:56 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@wza.us) joined #forth 14:59:59 --- quit: warpzero_ (Client Quit) 15:13:15 --- quit: warpzero ("leaving") 15:13:20 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@wza.us) joined #forth 15:19:22 Hi all 15:19:34 zoly: still there? 15:19:51 jo 15:19:57 what's new? 15:20:24 rudimentary blocks working, just busy with evaluate, to say, load 15:20:33 cool 15:20:41 guess a bit later source loading can do 15:20:54 what about, cookies for screen ? 15:21:20 hmm 15:21:21 btw, try the new terminal :) 15:21:23 cookies :) 15:21:34 http://www.printly.de/HelFORTH/foerthchen/ <-- another forth in javascript :) 15:21:41 hehe 15:22:12 there's a run into making them 15:22:56 This is far different than yours 15:23:06 Closer to what I had been working on :) 15:23:07 wodke, ah ja 15:23:19 contributor 15:29:23 --- join: T0paz (~top@sown-85.ecs.soton.ac.uk) joined #forth 15:30:30 :) 15:30:51 * crc plans to extend foerthchen into a subset of retroforth 15:34:15 crc: neat 15:36:28 I'll probably even try to squeeze RetroEditor into it 15:40:36 --- quit: Topaz (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 15:43:34 zoly: why does it repeat my input? 15:43:58 1 2 + . 15:44:06 Displays: 12+.3 ok 15:44:14 i'm busy with evaluate, therefore i echo the received stream 15:44:51 doesn't see the evaluated string yet, wrong pointer or such, but i'm pausing at the moment 15:45:02 guess 15 ..30 minutes i'll pick it up again 15:45:07 ok 15:45:19 that's the only thing missing for load 15:45:48 screens are simulated right now, as array in the source 15:46:06 therefore i'd have to add source manually 15:46:25 but a reasonable set of extension should be easy to copy and paste in 15:46:55 how you like the new term emu ? 15:47:05 seems ok 15:47:47 noticed any speed improvements ? 15:47:53 not really 15:48:16 what's your machine specs ? 15:48:39 600MHz Celeron, 256MB RAM, FireFox 0.9, Ubuntu Linux 15:49:08 hmm 15:49:21 fast mode is a rocket here 15:52:07 ok, "slow off" is a LOT faster than "slow on" 15:53:14 lol 15:53:41 It's still a lot slower than xterm though... 15:54:32 * crc finishes testing the new "find" in retro8. Now it works in a third of the time it used to take :) 15:57:54 i should change the name, maybe to turbo on and off 15:58:08 Just leave it set to "on" 15:58:14 can be a bit misleading now 15:58:57 that's slow ? you find that preferrable ? 15:59:38 I mean the fast setting 16:00:51 *g* 16:01:16 --- quit: T0paz ("Leaving") 16:01:59 --- quit: qFox ("this quit is sponsored by somebody!") 16:21:27 --- part: RangerElf left #forth 17:01:10 --- join: Sonarman (~snofs@adsl-64-160-167-158.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 17:03:58 I just finished writing a subse of the ANS wordset for RetroForth 17:04:13 is factor next? :) 17:04:45 I could do a subset of Factor; not the entire language... 17:06:37 Hi 17:06:41 Hi arke 17:06:42 factor ewww :P 17:06:56 * arke is at work 17:06:57 :) 17:07:51 bah, wait until i'm done with the gui here 17:09:01 Would I be able to use the GUI without a mouse? 17:09:23 yes 17:09:27 good 17:09:42 * crc is sick of GUI's that *require* use of mice 17:11:25 heh, I mostly use my computer for art, but every now and again I have to switch to keyboard, how annoying 17:11:47 i tend to use both a lot 17:12:02 I have severe CPS, using a mouse for any length of time gets painful 17:12:13 i can undersatnd that 17:12:15 s/CPS/CTS/ 17:12:29 I used to be able to type at 300 wpm 17:12:46 Now I'm lucky to be able to do 30 :( 17:12:55 300wpm? wow 17:13:41 Between CTS and arthritis, I can't do as much as I used to 17:14:47 still seems to me like you can type really fast though 17:14:48 :) 17:14:53 :) 17:15:02 I can do ok on my good keyboard 17:15:10 Not as well on the laptop though 17:15:15 either that or you read at 1232395871893761`2983471293 wpm 17:15:22 I read very fast 17:16:30 :) 17:21:18 hello zoly 17:21:26 nice work, looks to be 98% done :) 17:22:03 300, nah. 17:22:18 I'd have to see that to believe it, the world record holder was like 220-230 as I recall. 17:22:28 at least on qwerty. 17:22:32 depends on how you define "words" 17:22:41 I used 5 chars as the length of a "word" 17:23:01 what is the average used word length in the english language? 17:23:05 No idea 17:23:11 that would be what I would call a word. 17:23:29 :) 17:24:49 --- join: segher (~segher@p54A0FA83.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 17:24:59 hi segher 17:26:02 morning 17:33:11 hi SeaForth 17:33:49 hi segher 17:34:31 yoho 17:36:01 crc, does retro have vocs ? 17:36:09 Sort of... 17:36:20 I have localized vocabularies 17:36:33 multiple name spaces 17:36:36 "localized" in what way? 17:36:50 loc: : foo 1 2 + ; : bar foo . ; : baz bar cr ; ' baz ;loc alias baz 17:37:09 Only 'baz' will be left as a visible word in the dictionary 17:37:21 The compiled code is kept of course :) 17:37:23 Neat. 17:37:23 :) 17:37:35 so all the other names are completely gone? 17:37:39 Yes 17:38:07 that's interesting. quite non-standard, but hey :-) 17:38:07 loc: is like one additional voc 17:38:09 how do you test such a 'hidden' word? 17:38:49 I write the words without being within the loc: ;loc pair :) 17:38:58 so why have loc: ;loc at all? 17:39:01 :) 17:39:05 Once they work, I use loc: ;loc to hide everything I don't want seen 17:39:15 seen by whom? 17:39:20 others 17:39:42 Many of my words are only used by one or two other words. 17:39:58 With this, I can reveal the top-level words, and hide the factored code 17:40:14 i still don't understand the logic completely 17:40:25 crc: does it work recursively? ;) 17:40:32 arke: no 17:40:36 Hehe. :) 17:40:37 One level deep :) 17:40:42 I could make it nestable... 17:41:04 crc: also, how many aliases can you have? only one? 17:41:07 No 17:41:11 As many as you want 17:41:19 aah 17:41:23 how do you do that then? 17:41:29 loc: 17:41:32 loc: ... ;loc alias foo alias bar ? 17:41:36 : foo 1 2 + ; 17:41:40 : bar foo . ; 17:41:44 : baz bar cr ; 17:41:49 ' foo ' baz 17:41:56 ;loc alias baz alias foo 17:42:02 aah, neat 17:42:23 this will be nice for F2 17:42:37 I can hide the ugly graphics backend words and just expose putpixel etc. 17:42:52 what is f2? 17:43:45 slava: that which factor bends over for 17:43:46 slava: :) 17:43:50 arke: yup 17:43:51 slava: my forth os 17:44:42 does code exist? 17:44:42 i just became aware of that the standard selection in jsf could be used, with the remaining bits, to simulate conventional vocabularies, hardly any extra code needed. 17:45:32 haha 17:45:44 zoly, you should be a win32forth coder :P 17:45:48 * arke hides 17:45:49 ^_^ 17:45:49 restriction is that there's "only" about 25 o vocs one could create at maximum 17:46:12 slava, code for ? 17:46:36 i was asking arke, if code for f2 exists. 17:47:43 slava: yes 17:47:45 slava: :) 17:47:47 where? 17:47:52 slava: on my computer 17:47:55 slava: at home 17:47:56 slava: :) 17:48:00 how far along are you? 17:48:04 does it do anything? 17:49:07 slava: it displays pixels 17:49:11 slava: well, it did 17:49:18 slava: I started over because I didnt like my interface 17:49:20 bah, i can do that with SDL ;) 17:49:41 well, this IS using SDL throgh tetroforth 17:49:53 tetroforth? 17:50:17 retroforth 17:50:17 :P 17:50:28 :) 17:53:09 sdl sucks though, doesn't support async operation 17:54:22 what do you mean? 17:54:36 * crc prefers to use svgalib... 17:54:47 you can't do async i/o and wait for SDL events at the same time 17:54:56 err? 17:55:03 what do you mean, asyncxh? 17:55:13 select(), poll(), kqueue() etc 17:55:14 as in, you check to see if something is there, if not do something else? 17:55:19 Oh. 17:55:20 yes you can 17:55:23 how? 17:55:30 theres about a million different ways 17:55:38 no there isn't 17:55:49 SDL doesn't expose the underlying fd it reads events from... 17:55:50 a good one is to fork(), then create a pipe that routs SDL events back and forth, then attach the pipe to select() 17:56:06 that is such a hack 17:56:09 is SDL even thread-safe? 17:56:15 yes it is 17:56:19 SDL itself uses threads 17:56:22 and its not that bad of a hack' 17:56:25 i'd have to write C code to do this 17:56:36 no you wouldnt 17:56:45 you can do it in retroforth or gforth or bigforth 17:56:45 slava: he's using retroforth which isn't threadsafe anyway... 17:57:29 well i can't write factor code that creates threads because factor isn't thread safe 17:57:36 so i'd have to write the event pipe thing in C 17:57:55 and i don't want to introduce SDL dependencies into my C code. i could #ifdef it i guess, but still a hack 17:58:18 dude 17:58:20 ... 17:58:21 you suck 17:58:22 lol 17:58:25 fork() 17:58:27 fork() 17:58:29 fork() 17:58:32 :) 17:58:34 wouldnt matter then 17:58:37 asdf 17:58:39 a separate process? 17:59:00 i doubt that would work either 17:59:43 yeah it would 17:59:46 pipe dude 17:59:47 you suck 17:59:48 :) 18:00:09 how can two procs read from the same SDL screen? 18:00:19 they wouldnt 18:00:27 SDL allows custom events 18:00:35 one process does SDL stuff 18:00:55 the other one reads and writes to it to do its thing 18:01:08 this has the advantage that you can then also use allegro or whatever instead, without changing the code 18:02:27 there's better ways to decouple code than have two processes communicating over a pipe 18:08:45 bleh 18:08:50 unix n00b 18:08:51 :P 18:08:55 yes theres better ways 18:08:58 but not with SDL 18:09:00 so chill 18:09:02 accept the facts 18:09:03 hence, SDL sucks 18:09:04 and go away 18:09:12 for you are not true 1xforth so dont even start talking 18:09:12 :) 18:09:13 i accept the facts, you claimed SDL could do it 18:09:58 you shouldn't criticize other's coding unless you have some of your own... 18:10:00 well yes 18:10:04 with a little help 18:10:05 .... 18:10:06 dude 18:10:11 I code more than you think 18:10:14 I throw stuff away 18:10:15 and I shouldnt 18:10:17 but I do 18:10:22 because I am not satisfied 18:10:31 code that I'm proud of works, is small, compact, and fast 18:10:34 go to herks wiki 18:10:38 look at my cons cell code 18:10:49 you coded a linked list? wow 18:10:52 ... 18:11:12 yes i did 18:11:23 I'm just anal 18:11:25 and i shouldnt be 18:11:26 but I am 18:11:48 I must have written millions of lines of code right now which I threw away because I wasnt satisfied with it 18:11:51 but whatever 18:11:52 * arke works 18:12:14 --- quit: samc (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 18:12:35 well then share the code with us instead of trying to be some know-it-all-1xforther on irc 18:13:21 then you can tell people they can't code freely 18:14:02 wtf 18:14:07 I'm not telling people they can't 18:14:23 why do you think that 18:14:25 you remind me of futhin 18:14:29 HAHA 18:14:34 that's exactly what i was thinking 18:14:54 .... 18:14:59 Yeah 18:14:59 i was about to say it 18:15:02 I'm alot like futhin 18:15:06 and alot not like him 18:15:12 gimme a break. 18:15:18 we;re still plenty different. 18:15:23 quit being an arrogant dick 18:15:34 Sonarman: who are you directing this towards? 18:15:50 futhin is the true 1xforther, he's so arrogant he feels he's the best and doesn't code at all 18:16:01 he does some coding 18:16:04 you, Mr. "I'm a 1xforther, you're a 10000xforther, I know how to code, you don't, so shut the fuck up" 18:16:24 crc, but futhin's sheer arrogance is amazing 18:16:41 :) 18:16:58 I'm not a 1xforther, I strive to be one however 18:17:07 whereas someone like crc doesn't have to be arrogant because he has good code to show us and that speaks for itself 18:17:08 I think I've gone a long way 18:17:23 I should show you the colorforth stuff I've done, I think you'll be impresse 18:17:29 .. 18:17:30 ok 18:17:33 fine 18:17:36 maybe i will be impressed, but that doesn't really justify your exterme arrogance 18:17:44 I'm gonna try to finish the colorforth editor tonight and I'll show you 18:17:52 how am I being arrogant? 18:18:00 you were before 18:18:02 I'm just saying that I'm anal and its not a good thing 18:18:15 I'm nowhere near the level of kc5tja or crc 18:18:37 ok, so now you're alternating between arrogance and trying to suck up 18:18:38 and I don't claim to be 18:18:45 ... 18:18:48 wtf 18:18:50