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09:11:07 <arke> teh hies all
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09:18:08 <zol1> g'day
09:18:15 <arke> hi speuler
09:18:24 <arke> hows JS4th coming along? :)
09:18:35 <zol1> hav some primitives built
09:18:45 <zol1> vectored execution still not working
09:18:49 <zol1> postponed
09:19:18 <zol1> struggling now with = ... when evaluating on console, it works, but as function, it doesn't
09:19:29 <zol1> tos=tos==s[sp--]
09:19:33 <zol1> as simple as that
09:19:56 <zol1> don't know yet what makes the diff between console interactive, and function
09:20:18 <zol1> parenthesis or not makes no diff
09:20:53 <zol1> http://forthfreak.net/JS-Forth.js is the "workable" extract from my attempts as far
09:21:25 <zol1> not much yet
09:21:47 <zol1> but it is only yesterday evening i had a first look at javascript
09:23:21 <zol1> function foo() { ... }      ;    var bar=foo  ;    ... now having just bar, would you know how to get foo executed ?
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09:24:27 <arke> yes, bar()
09:24:32 <arke> (i think)
09:24:46 <zol1> i think i tried that too
09:26:01 <arke> hrm
09:26:03 <arke> maybe (bar)()
09:26:31 <arke> oh
09:26:39 <arke> put it in a class
09:27:27 <zol1> hmm
09:27:30 <arke> function bar() { this.call = foo }
09:27:30 <zol1> it works ...
09:27:38 <zol1> i was using arrays yesterday, not vars
09:27:39 <arke> how?
09:27:42 <arke> err
09:27:42 <arke> oh
09:27:44 <arke> haha
09:27:46 <arke> :)
09:27:53 <arke> should still work with arrays though, I think
09:27:58 <zol1> lemme try whether that makes a diff
09:28:33 <zol1> it does ...
09:28:41 <zol1> (no diff, i mean, does work)
09:28:52 <zol1> hmm
09:29:09 <zol1> oh well
09:29:22 <zol1> lemme use it as long as it still works :)
09:29:28 <zol1> thanks
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09:30:26 <zol1> thrading model is probably going to be itc
09:30:27 <arke> :)
09:30:29 <zol1> threading
09:30:38 <arke> javascript is an odd one.
09:30:39 <zol1> therefore the vectored execution
09:30:48 <arke> :)
09:31:05 <arke> well, I don't think you have any options beside bastardized ITC and token threading/VM :P
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09:31:52 <zol1> probably threading is going to be very similar to psiforth, the opl (basic like) forth for the psion
09:31:57 <bbls> hello
09:32:03 <zol1> which is token+itc too
09:32:16 <zol1> hi bbls
09:33:00 <zol1> i'll put a link to the script into the script itself so you can fetch/see it whenever you like
09:33:00 <bbls> hi zol1
09:33:15 <zol1> but for now it won't change its name
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09:34:39 <zol1>  http://forthfreak.net/JS-Forth.html  , that the html files invoking the js
09:35:23 <zol1> the one you can view/download from http://forthfreak.net/JS-Forth.js
09:35:55 <arke> I'll look later, can't right now :)
09:36:15 <zol1> no need to. gave you the urls so you can bookmark them
09:36:18 <zol1> if you like
09:39:10 <arke> :)
09:46:41 <zol1> what about, i add to the js as comment below those things i don't know how to do yet, and in case you get around to have a look at it and know the answer to one of those problems, you tell me ?
09:47:17 <zol1> that way i'm less prone to getting kicked for off-topic chatter :)
09:49:07 <zol1> main reason for this implementation is to have an online forth to play with for people visiting forth sites
09:49:28 <zol1> and i want to avoid using a java implementation
09:52:03 <arke> :)
09:52:06 <arke> yeah
09:52:08 <arke> java = eww :)
09:52:16 <arke> then agian, same with JS ... o.O
09:52:24 <arke> :)
09:52:34 <arke> come on, change your nick back. Nobody knows who you are :)
09:52:41 --- nick: zol1 -> zoly
09:52:53 <arke> no not that one :)
09:52:59 --- nick: zoly -> onemanarmy
09:53:17 <arke> no, not that one either :)
09:53:24 --- nick: onemanarmy -> semtex
09:54:19 <semtex> i'm afraid i'm outing me now, showing all the nicks i use :P
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09:54:41 <arke> try "Speuler" :)
09:54:43 <arke> Herkamire: hi
09:54:55 --- nick: semtex -> Speuler
09:55:22 <Speuler> hi herkamire
09:56:06 <SeaForth> Herkamire, you around?
09:58:02 <Herkamire> hi all :)
09:58:12 <bbls> hi
10:04:31 <Speuler> though DTC looks a bit simpler
10:07:00 <arke> STC is the simplest :)
10:07:15 <arke> I wrote a forth in TI-BASIC (well, I lost it, it was incomplete but worked, and VERY SLOW)
10:07:18 <arke> it implemented a VM and STC.
10:07:21 <Speuler> can't use i'm afraid
10:07:25 <arke> the VM was specially suited for Forth.
10:07:26 <arke> ;)
10:07:32 <arke> yeah you can :P
10:07:40 <Speuler> cause i don't know how to get to js return stack
10:07:43 <arke> I even wrote a "detypeifier" for it
10:08:10 <arke> which turned types into neutral integers and turned them into a different type as needed.
10:08:52 <Herkamire> Speuler: I wouldn't expect to be able to use the js return stack even if you do find it
10:09:06 <Herkamire> js is supposed to be a safe language
10:09:14 <Herkamire> (in that you can't crash the browser)
10:09:35 <Herkamire> s/can't/shouldn't be able to/
10:10:31 <Herkamire> you'll probably have to use an array for the return stack
10:11:26 <Herkamire> can't remember what it's called, but it's probably easiest to have your compiled code be an array of XTs
10:12:08 <Herkamire> you (in js) read in the next XT, if it's less than say 100 then it's core word, and you execute the appropriate js function
10:12:25 <Herkamire> otherwise you push the rstack, and start over at the address in the XT
10:12:51 <Speuler> right, primitives as tokens.
10:13:05 <Speuler> that was what i was heading towards
10:13:41 <Speuler> but i'm still playing a bit, to test the alternatives
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10:14:36 <Speuler> am just trying to express primitives structured as forth words, i.e. also threaded
10:20:13 <Speuler> Herkamire: the two urls related to javascript forth are:
10:20:20 <Speuler> http://forthfreak.net/JS-Forth.html  (execute it)
10:20:27 <Speuler> http://forthfreak.net/JS-Forth.js  (source code)
10:24:30 <SeaForth> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=162&item=5154716586
10:24:46 <SeaForth> just thought some of you forther's would like to see this, I'm not associated with it, and I would bid if I lived in the UK.
10:26:11 <Speuler> SeaForth: the Q&A section is a bit strange
10:26:32 <Speuler> he says "connected to tv, tested keys, work" , and later "unit untested, no time"
10:26:39 <SeaForth> yes, it is a little weird.  I read and thought, hmmmmmm, maybe s/he will test it on the weekend?
10:26:44 <Speuler> ah, ok
10:26:45 <SeaForth> Yes, I read that.
10:26:47 <Speuler> is reverse order
10:26:51 <SeaForth> yah.
10:26:56 <SeaForth> hehehe, forth like.
10:26:57 <SeaForth> lol
10:27:09 <SeaForth> I still  hate eBay
10:27:33 <SeaForth> Speuler, sure looks like Jforth is shaping up to look a LOT like BashForth :)
10:27:48 <Speuler> i *think* with a microcontroller board and forth in flash you may have more fun
10:28:18 <Speuler> check out for example the avr mega devices
10:28:40 <SeaForth> I would believe spending 100-150 on a nice PIC system with a USB to Serial (I have two 1-4 USB->Serials) I could have a blast with some hardware FORTH'in
10:29:05 <Speuler> pic is just a bit too small for forth, at least the 15xx and 16xx family. 
10:29:11 <Speuler> 17 or 18xx could do, not sure
10:29:49 <Speuler> well, external flash/ram can be interfaced of course
10:29:55 <SeaForth> I'm not a PIC expert by any means.  I simply want to do some CPU Forth, and I'm gonna start with the MPC7450/7 and then migrate backwards to the 6502 and other smaller CPUs from years gone bye, and finally PIC.
10:30:14 <Speuler> i like the hitachi h8 devices for embedded forth
10:30:25 <Speuler> they are like half-size 68000
10:30:43 <Speuler> well, the H8/30xx are
10:31:00 <Speuler> the H8/3xx are 8 bitters
10:31:09 <Speuler> 30xx are 16/32 bit
10:31:34 <Speuler> but those are limited availability now
10:31:46 <Speuler> made once per year, numbers as ordered
10:32:37 <Speuler> but i'd have a look at the bigger avrs for embedded if i'd have to look for another controller
10:33:23 <Speuler> avr mega64 and mega128
10:34:34 <Speuler> texas instruments msp430 might also be interesting
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10:34:43 <Speuler> but not too much linux dev software around.
10:36:25 <Speuler> SeaForth: if you could get hold of an motorola 6809 based board, those are very nice for Forth
10:37:21 <Speuler> the cpu looks like it was designed with Forth in mind
10:38:32 <Speuler> also, pretty uncritical in terms of interfacing devices/memory
10:38:44 <Speuler> very relaxed bus timing
10:39:17 <Speuler> 25 % of each cycle for cpu, 75% for bus
10:41:09 <Speuler> for avr, there are forths available
10:59:17 <SeaForth> I have books on the 6809, and have looked at it over the past few years.  I think I found a distribution somewhere that had a 6809 emulator, and in that was a forth that had a full blown editor/page based forth implementation :)
10:59:31 <SeaForth> I have since lost that distro, but could find it online if I looked hard enough.
11:01:07 <SeaForth> http://www.idiom.com/free-compilers/LANG/mc6809-1.html
11:02:10 <Speuler> sbc09 comes with forth
11:02:13 <Speuler> and emu
11:02:15 <SeaForth> \http://www.xs4all.nl/~lennartb/m6809.html
11:02:58 <SeaForth> yah, that was lennart's project.
11:03:03 <SeaForth> It was fairly easy to find again.
11:03:08 <SeaForth> I loved it, was a blast to play with.
11:03:18 <SeaForth> no need for a real 6809 until something strikes my fancy.
11:03:25 <SeaForth> yet playing with real hardware is a blast from the past.
11:03:27 <Speuler> 6809 was the cpu i learned asm and forth on
11:03:57 <Speuler> http://www.forthfreak.net/wiki/index.cgi?Speuler    here's the machine
11:19:40 <SeaForth> 6502 is my first asm baby.
11:20:08 <SeaForth> Speuler, is your website backend driven by forth?
11:20:44 <Speuler> the eiki, you mean ?
11:20:48 <Speuler> wik
11:20:51 <Speuler> wiki
11:20:58 <SeaForth> yah, he wiki, and the spell checker :)
11:21:12 <Speuler> not yet. currently busy implementing wiki in forth
11:21:29 <SeaForth> nice computer prono of your first.
11:21:32 <Speuler> http://fwiki.logilan.com
11:22:00 <SeaForth> I wish I had the 6502 system I learned on, apple ][+.  I did have an AIM65 and a Kim until this past summer.  I sold them, total take, about 350 for all the manuals and the computers.
11:22:08 <SeaForth> I needed the money, felt like i was selling my soul.
11:22:27 <Speuler> 6502 is a bit tedious for forth, because of the 8bit addressing
11:22:50 * SeaForth is listening to Queen's "I'm going slightly mad" and wondering if he is indeed.
11:23:13 <SeaForth> yah, the 6502 is a bit limited, basically a one stack system.
11:23:17 <Speuler> also. forth register to cpu register mapping is not really great
11:23:26 <SeaForth> but, it was done, and doable, and obviously not a dream to do i.t
11:23:39 <SeaForth> I believe i have the original FORTH Inc. source for it somewhere here.
11:23:50 <Speuler> 6809: two stack pointer, can address whole memory. 2 index register, also whole memory :)
11:24:06 <SeaForth> An anonymous FORTH'er a while ago sent it to me and said don't tell anyone :)  Gotta love the absolute love-loss for Eliz and FORTH Inc.
11:24:13 <Speuler> means, SP, RP, IP and W are covered 
11:24:35 <SeaForth> :)  Yah, the 6809 was an amazing little CPU for its time.
11:24:50 <SeaForth> And as I recall it wasn't a ton more money than the 6502, something like 125% of the cost.
11:24:52 <Speuler> addressing modes also perfect for forth
11:25:16 <SeaForth> couldn't find that fwiki
11:25:21 <Speuler> indirect register autoincrement ..
11:25:41 <Speuler> http://fwiki.logilan.com/
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13:15:38 * SeaForth finds it funny that Thinking Postscript, is very much like Thinking Forth which was written 10-12 years before.
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14:04:12 <crc> hi all
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14:30:58 <Stepan> hi there
14:31:37 <crc> Hi Stepan
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14:48:40 * robert spots Speuler 
14:48:46 <robert> Hi there. :)
14:49:08 <robert> Long time no see
14:49:32 <robert> And whenever I hear about animal sex on IRC (happens more often than I feel comfortable with, for some reason) I think of you.
14:50:49 <crc> Hi robert
14:51:08 * crc has been working on ways to avoid using does> in forth
14:51:39 <robert> Why, and what have you made so far?
14:52:08 <crc> does> is a tricky word to explain
14:52:18 <crc> And it's not 100% neccessary
14:55:04 <robert> Nothing beyond brainfuck is 100% necessary.
14:55:21 <robert> Why would does> being hard to explain stop you from using it?
14:55:45 <crc> It wouldn't, unless I found a solution I liked better
14:55:50 <crc> Which I have :)
14:55:56 <robert> Tell me!
14:56:18 <crc> I have a word "implements"
14:56:48 <crc> : 1p 1 post ;
14:56:53 <crc> : 1pi (create) literal, implements 1p ;
14:57:11 <crc> It forces factoring out of code, while allowing less compiler trickery to implement
14:57:28 <crc> It also helps to get people to rethink the way they write code a bit
14:58:21 <robert> What does "post" do?
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14:59:02 <Herkamire> crc: I like it :)
14:59:25 <Herkamire> I was going to say... the alternative is to make a word which compiles a definition on the end (or a call to one.)
15:01:25 <crc> That's what I'm doing now 
15:01:29 <crc> I like it a lot
15:01:38 <crc> robert: post is part of the 386 assembler code
15:01:52 <crc> (from the c.l.f. thread)
15:02:41 <slava> crc, i don't understand the assembler syntax you posted on c.l.f
15:03:42 <crc> slava: it's rather tricky
15:03:51 <crc> And I didn't write that assembler either
15:04:03 <crc> It works nicely though
15:04:14 <crc> I did mention that the syntax is convulated :)
15:04:34 * crc intends to simplify it quite a bit in the near future
15:07:21 <Speuler> crc:       does:    runaction   ;           : definingword      build  compileaction  ;   ( where build compiles cfa to jump to does: whose address was left on stack )  was a way i worked around create does> in one implementation. was simple to implement, possibly conceptionally easier as well
15:07:53 <crc> I've done that too
15:07:57 <Speuler> does:   just made a headerless/nameless definition
15:08:21 <crc> I try to avoid nameless definitions
15:08:39 <slava> i don't like create/does> and forth's handling of higher order functions in general...
15:09:02 <Speuler> who of you was it who didn't like   do ... loop   ?
15:09:08 <crc> Me :)
15:09:22 <slava> me too :) recursion is better
15:09:30 <slava> i only use loops in specific cases, like a counted loop, or list iteration
15:09:51 <Speuler> ah right. you preferred assembler syntax like   : word  [ xx c, xx c, ] ; , was it ?
15:09:52 <crc> RetroForth's interpreter is an infinite loop
15:09:57 <crc> That's right
15:10:08 <Speuler> so why using a compiler ?
15:10:11 <Speuler> you could  ' word ,
15:10:13 <crc> I've been writing an assembler though
15:10:25 <crc> Speuler: I try to avoid using assembly when possible
15:10:35 <crc> Assemblers are fairly complex things
15:10:48 <robert> At least for x86. :)
15:11:08 <crc> I don't want one in the core (it's fine to have as a loadable option though)
15:12:17 <Speuler> if there's compiler writer and compiler user, is it better if compiler writer overrules user by saying "you won't get this with my compiler", or for the user to say "the compiler got features i chose not to use"  ?
15:12:45 <crc> The user can customize the compiler as he/she sees fit
15:12:59 <Speuler> even more, he has to :P
15:13:12 <crc> I provide a fairly compact dialect of Forth, and a library of popular additions
15:13:30 <crc> 8.0 will add a block editor and a few debugging words to the core
15:13:32 <Speuler> i've written a single byte compiler
15:13:38 <crc> For x86?
15:13:44 <Speuler> it only consists of the opcode for  "nop"
15:13:52 <Speuler> the rest can be implemented by the user
15:13:55 <crc> heh
15:14:11 <Speuler> (if he requires it, of course)
15:14:15 <crc> RetroForth is not the only Forth; there are other choices.
15:14:25 <crc> I provide a LOT more than 'nop'
15:14:33 <Speuler> yes, you do
15:14:45 <Speuler> you must be a fan of overly complex systems
15:14:49 <Speuler> *g*
15:14:58 <crc> The core system contains what I use on a regular basis, nothing more.
15:15:16 <crc> That others like it, often in the default state, is a plus :)
15:15:19 <Speuler> my compiler is much simpler than yours 
15:15:30 <Speuler> and 5000 times smaller
15:15:39 <slava> but a compiler compiling 'nop' is not useful
15:15:42 <crc> Your compiler isn't a compiler though
15:15:47 <Speuler> well, you can extend it
15:15:56 <crc> If it's just the "nop" byte, that's useless
15:16:03 <Speuler> i find nop very useful
15:16:09 <slava> you cannot apply the term 'extend' to something that doesn't exist
15:16:10 <crc> Speuler: good for you.
15:16:32 <Speuler> sure.. first it doesn't exist. then you extend it. then it does exist
15:16:36 * crc notes that ianp has stayed connected longer than anyone else recently
15:16:55 --- mode: crc set -v ianp
15:22:02 <Speuler> does anyone know a forther by the name of "Narue" ?
15:25:26 <robert> Don't think so. Is that his real name or IRC nick?
15:26:36 <Speuler> nick on daniweb
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15:27:02 <robert> No idea what that is, but I still don't think I know him.
15:27:31 <Speuler> there's a java/c++/forth battle on there.
15:27:40 <Speuler> narue seems to defend the forth side
15:27:47 <Speuler> never heard of him
15:29:33 <robert> Heh, well, there seems to be a number of undercover Forth agents out there.
15:29:59 <robert> Inactive since before the Soviet Union fell.
15:30:06 <Speuler> thread titled: Re: C++ is dying a slow death
15:30:14 <robert> (Do we see a connection? Is Forth a stalinist conspiracy?)
15:30:18 <robert> Haha.
15:30:28 <robert> What was their argument for that?
15:30:53 <Speuler> http://www.daniweb.com/techtalkforums/showthread.php?t=8386&page=6&pp=15   there's one article,  possbily start of thread, some more i found on other pages
15:30:53 <robert> I see Sun and Microsoft fighting to take over C++ territory.
15:31:07 <robert> Thanks
15:31:08 <slava> C++ is dying, no doubt about it
15:31:49 <robert> Who's eating on the corpse?
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15:32:30 <Speuler> http://www.daniweb.com/techtalkforums/showthread.php?t=8386&page=7&pp=15   more here
15:33:23 <Speuler> http://www.daniweb.com/techtalkforums/post84113.html#post84113   escalating here
15:37:26 <slava> now if only java would die!
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15:40:12 <robert> Aren't you a Java fan, slava?
15:41:29 <Speuler> if slave is a fan, i'd like to know how a java hater would sound
15:41:33 <Speuler> slava
15:42:34 <slava> well, if you ignore the fact that I've been coding java for 8 years
15:42:48 <slava> my reasons for hating it are different from other people's
15:43:11 <slava> i don't actually care that its not open source, or slow, etc. i just think the language sucks and has poor abstraction, and this tends to trickle down and result in crappy libraries
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17:32:27 <crc> goodnight
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20:21:36 <Speuler> my javascript forth interpreter just executed its first hi-level word :)
20:21:50 <TheBlueWizard> :)
20:22:03 <Speuler> hi blue wizard
20:22:13 <Speuler> that's a while
20:22:35 <Speuler> http://forthfreak.net/JS-Forth.html
20:22:42 <Speuler> http://forthfreak.net/JS-Forth.js    that's the source 
20:23:05 <Speuler> not really much yet
20:24:32 <TheBlueWizard> ah....I'll look at it when I'm done with my daily dose of web articles
20:24:33 <Speuler> the "5" is the result of execution of a high level word
20:24:50 <Speuler> even a literal in there
20:27:36 <Speuler> still very rough, everything in there
20:27:56 <Speuler> but i need to get the framework running without knowing javascript 
20:28:25 <Speuler> therefore it is still some trying out here and there
20:29:46 <Speuler> nested high-level word work too
20:29:58 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...I just tried out http://forthfreak.net/JS-Forth.html and all I see is a blank (I'm on Windoze).  I looked at the source file and I see <SCRIPT ...></SCRIPT> and not much more...
20:30:26 <Speuler>      ><SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript" SRC="JS-Forth.js">      </SCRIPT>    
20:30:28 <Speuler> ?
20:30:38 <TheBlueWizard> I have an old Javascript based HTML page that does differentiation, and it works pretty well
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20:30:57 <TheBlueWizard> yeah, that's the line
20:31:02 <Speuler> yes, that's all
20:31:15 <Speuler> JS-Forth.js is called then
20:31:43 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...at least I think that'd be the case with the browser
20:31:54 <TheBlueWizard> still, a blank
20:31:59 <Speuler> but i can't handle different javascript versions yet, cause i wouldn't know what to write for the different versions
20:36:59 <TheBlueWizard> I'll look at it more closely tomorrow
20:37:20 <TheBlueWizard> and yes I grabbed the .js file
20:37:30 <Speuler> that is is changing often right now
20:37:45 <Speuler> it is the one i'm editing on
20:39:19 <TheBlueWizard> heh ok
20:44:48 <Speuler> haven't started versionning yet
20:44:56 <Speuler> is still 0.00
20:45:17 <TheBlueWizard> sounds like you're just starting :)
20:45:28 <Speuler> that's right
20:46:08 <Speuler> first lines yesterday evening. most to get acquainted with js
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20:47:03 <Speuler> but once the vm works (which it seems to do), the rest should be a snap :)
20:47:30 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...should be...for the most part anyway
20:47:54 <Speuler> i thought about putting it on the forthfreak wiki, for online demonstration and trying out
20:48:42 <Speuler> and i definitely don't want a server-side solution for that
20:49:46 <Speuler> also sounds like a project insane enough to suit me.
20:50:44 <TheBlueWizard> ha ha...well, have fun coding it up :)
20:50:47 <Speuler> btw, do you know "coccinella" ?
20:51:02 <Speuler> unluckily closed source afaik
20:51:07 <TheBlueWizard> no...whazzit?
20:51:12 <Speuler> you might like that
20:51:29 <Speuler> that's a jabbe client with whiteboard
20:51:32 <Speuler> jabber
20:53:03 <TheBlueWizard> ah...whiteboard thingy, yeah, that'd be cool.  AFAIK the existing e-whiteboard stuff are closed source only; no open source version exist (though I think there are a few in the development stage already)
20:53:20 <Speuler> i.e. collaborative designing, drawing etc through instant messenger
20:53:35 * TheBlueWizard nods
20:54:39 <Speuler> jabber is cool
20:54:47 <Speuler> i've given up on icq completely
20:54:58 <TheBlueWizard> :)  I haven't used jabber though
20:55:35 <Speuler> after i have converted >50 % of my icq contacts to install a jabber client (or create a jabber account if they were running a mumlti-protocol client anyway)
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