00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.01.07 01:55:41 --- join: aum (~aum@60.234.138.239) joined #forth 02:02:37 Hi 02:03:49 hi 02:37:19 --- quit: fridge ("Leaving") 02:41:32 --- join: Topaz (~top@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust217.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 02:44:14 Hi 02:45:10 'lo 02:45:29 * Robert picks up a 567 and starts trying to build a sonar ;) 02:45:53 haha 02:45:54 567? 02:46:08 NE567 tone decoder. 02:46:14 ah 02:47:05 I saw someone who did that, but using ultrasonic 02:47:23 I got a large loudspeaker from school, so I'm planning to use that (with lower frequencies). 02:52:05 could have pumpin' bass too 02:52:36 Well, I _do_ want to detect object smaller than a mountain. 02:52:45 haha 02:53:08 Wonder how far I can push it. 02:53:16 5kHz or so could work. 03:36:33 --- join: T0paz (~top@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust217.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 03:37:30 --- quit: Topaz (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:42:13 * aum expands EPICforth's address space from 16-bit to 24-bit 03:43:42 * Robert screams "bloatware"! 03:43:53 haha 03:44:14 what's the bloat problem if there's 2MB of EEPROM? 03:44:27 It'll get slower. 03:44:33 and there's a switch to take it back to 16-bit when using smaller devices 03:44:36 Consume more of your RAM. 03:44:47 And to be honest, I'm not entirely serious. 03:48:00 it's already pretty slow 03:48:31 What clock speed are you running the PIC at? 03:48:39 And are you using any cache? 03:48:40 given that max EEPROM clock speed is 400kHz, that allows for maximum opcode fetch rate of 40000/sec 03:48:48 pic running @ 20MHz 03:48:52 no use of cache 03:48:56 Oh, a fast one. 03:49:08 Why no cache? I bet that could make things a little faster. 03:49:26 I only change the EEPROM address cursor when a jump/call/return happens 03:49:39 so i'm reading the EEPROM at maximum possible rate 03:50:46 but 40kIPS is a cruel slowdown from a 20MHz (5 MIPS) PIC 03:51:19 Right. 03:51:45 things can be sped up by coding primitives for time-critical stuff 03:52:06 in a sense, the bytecodes in EEPROM are 'glue' sequencing the execution of native functions 03:53:09 truly though, I really should get my hands on an ARM with on-board RAM/ROM 04:01:12 i've got two, but they need soldering :/ 04:01:21 i've never designed a PCB for a 208-pin TQFP before ;) 04:02:21 you should look at the ATMEL ARM Thumb chips - only 48 or 64 pins, with everything on-board 04:03:59 yeah, that's what i've got 04:04:11 though i've got the most-highly-featured one ;) 04:04:14 the AT91RM9200 04:04:25 onboard USB device, host, and ethernet 04:04:32 can you get an eval board for it? 04:04:38 (and the bootloader can boot off usb-flash-drive, apparently) 04:04:42 cogent do one for some insane price 04:04:49 i'll make my own, when i get round to it 04:05:26 * aum figures 64 pins is about maximum, for butchering a veroboard 04:06:07 Can't they integrate everything a normal PC contains onto one chip these days? 04:06:19 pretty much yes 04:08:10 * aum is still waiting for forth-on-a-chip 04:08:16 tis funny that i only need to wire up about 10 pins to make this ARM work 04:08:22 (power, clock, and USB-flash-drive ;) 04:08:31 nice 04:08:34 though it needs weird voltages, unfortunately 04:08:52 well, 1.8 and 3.3, or thereabouts 04:09:27 forth chips - http://www.ultratechnology.com/chips.htm 04:10:17 --- join: fridge (~Jim@CommSecureAustPtyLtd.sb1.optus.net.au) joined #forth 04:12:17 Hmm 04:13:10 I saw that there are REALLY low-voltage CMOS technology out there now. Pretty amazing that you can do with 0.7V now what they did with 200V some time ago ;) 04:13:26 heh yeah 04:15:31 How fast can writing to flash memory be? 04:18:57 faster than changing the flux polarity on magnetic drum core i'm sure 04:20:07 Hehe. I've got the impression that it's rather slow. 04:20:30 But I'd really like a full-featured 10g computer running of AA cells. 04:20:45 (and a 0.5kW, 40kg monitor to that ;) 04:22:27 we'll be laughing about this discussion in a few years from now, when everyone has 16GHz wristwatch PCs with onboard 1GB/s WLAN, 3d holographic monitor, 3d video phone... 04:22:30 flash memory write speed varies, depending on whether it's nand flash or nor flash 04:23:04 most compactflash goes at 1-2 meg a second, i think 04:23:10 What are their different properties? 04:23:10 though you can get crazily-fast ones 04:23:32 And how is info stored, really? Electric charges? 04:23:58 Oh, and why is the number of writes limited? 04:24:41 NOR and NAND flash are addressed differently, it appears 04:24:55 (NOR flash being more like SRAM, NAND flash having a huge multiplexing array) 04:25:12 the information is stored by some bizarre quantum tunnelling technique, where you 'trap' electronics beneath a insulating layer 04:25:24 Heh, neat. 04:25:30 er, electrons* 04:25:52 it's a rather dodgy process, since you're talking about very small quantities of electrons 04:25:57 so the amassed charge is incredibly low 04:26:16 (and it relies on very sophisticated read circuitry to try and determine the difference between a 0 and a 1) 04:26:19 it's amazing it works at all ;) 04:26:37 i'm not quite sure which bit 'wears out' with overuse 04:27:00 Hm, OK. Interesting technology anyway. 04:27:18 ah, i think the thin insulating layer doesn't stay insulating forever 04:27:35 Sounds like the MOSFET amplifiers I use. :P 04:27:39 haha 04:35:46 --- quit: fridge ("Leaving") 04:51:59 --- join: bbls (~bbls@80.97.121.133) joined #forth 04:52:07 --- quit: aum () 05:53:53 --- join: onetom (~tom@cab.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 05:53:55 --- quit: cmeme (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:01:32 Heh, guess what? 06:01:41 hi Robert 06:01:41 * Robert just found 3 working 1N92 diodes :) 06:01:50 i don't know what those are :) 06:03:54 Ancient germanium diodes 06:04:25 i'm not very good with electronics 06:04:39 i've studied just digital IC's 06:08:43 I'm merely a hobbyist myself, and a new one 06:09:01 :) 06:09:07 I found a nice document, though 06:09:13 "The Unusual Diode FAQ" 06:09:18 :) 07:19:44 --- join: dgd_ (~dgd@d138.maxtnt-1.jvl.ticon.net) joined #forth 08:14:26 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 08:14:26 --- quit: onetom (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:23:06 --- quit: dgd_ (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 08:23:11 --- join: dgd (~dgd@d245.maxtnt-2.jvl.ticon.net) joined #forth 08:54:25 --- quit: T0paz (Remote closed the connection) 08:55:26 --- join: Topaz (~top@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust217.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 09:02:12 --- quit: dgd (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 09:07:14 --- join: arke (apache@11.198.216.81.dre.siw.siwnet.net) joined #forth 09:07:29 Hi 09:08:08 teh hies robtrobz0r 09:10:33 HAIHOWRU! 09:12:33 IM FYNE HOW BOUT U 09:12:47 ISITEHK2 09:13:49 LIEKOMG HOW GOOD FOR U 09:13:54 OGMWTFBBQ 09:14:00 ok, lets stop. :) 09:14:20 Right. 09:14:46 :) 10:00:00 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.2) joined #forth 10:00:14 --- quit: cmeme (Remote closed the connection) 10:01:00 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.2) joined #forth 10:12:28 --- join: zol1 (~l@ppp-62-245-209-216.mnet-online.de) joined #forth 10:13:41 --- quit: arke ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") 10:30:14 --- part: zol1 left #forth 10:48:20 --- quit: bbls () 11:56:38 --- join: raystm22 (~color4th@adsl-69-149-51-211.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 12:03:54 --- join: rwilco (~douglas@moreen133.micro-mania.net) joined #forth 12:09:08 --- part: rwilco left #forth 12:37:48 --- quit: raystm22 ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 12:46:04 --- quit: Torbernite ("Connection reset by earthquake") 13:03:23 --- join: arke (apache@11.198.216.81.dre.siw.siwnet.net) joined #forth 13:03:31 --- join: raystm22 (~color4th@adsl-69-149-51-211.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 13:13:05 --- join: I440r (~mark4@216-110-82-59.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 13:49:38 --- quit: arke ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") 14:07:33 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@modem-138.nyc-tc03a.FCC.NET) joined #forth 14:14:48 hi all 14:17:38 hiya crc 14:17:59 hi tbw 14:59:18 --- join: tathi (~josh@68.81.165.175) joined #forth 15:26:21 --- quit: saon (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 15:27:58 --- join: dgd (~dgd@d034.maxtnt-1.jvl.ticon.net) joined #forth 15:31:38 --- join: p-Imperator (CapStone@cs24160141-160.satx.rr.com) joined #forth 15:32:53 hi 15:48:49 --- quit: Testament (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:07:15 Hi dgd 16:10:50 hi crc 16:10:57 Hi warpzero 16:16:03 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 16:16:23 Pretty quiet in here... 16:17:18 yup 16:17:22 It often is 16:17:36 We get very active at times, but most of the time it's quiet 16:17:48 Ever hear from Jax? 16:18:17 nope 16:18:52 I remember him from the Usenet postings - even before the ANSI committee... 16:19:38 I didn't start using forth until three or four years after ANS came about 16:20:36 When I started, FIGFORTH was the rage, and everybody spun off their own derivative of it... 16:20:49 The closest thing to standards were FIGFORTH and FORTH-79. 16:20:57 heh, my Forth isn't compatible with any standards 16:21:17 Which FORTH do you use? 16:21:21 RetroForth 16:21:46 Hmmm... no LMI? No PolyForth? No F83? 16:21:51 I've dated myself for sure.... 16:21:52 Nope 16:22:22 I remember using several FIGFORTH varients in the past... 16:22:23 What is RetroForth like? 16:22:44 It's sort of like ColorForth without the colors in design 16:22:52 Wonderfully minimalistic 16:23:26 Perhaps 120 words in the core 16:23:58 A small interpreter/compiler in assembly; almost everything above that written in Forth (with a bit of hand-assembled code) 16:41:29 --- quit: dgd (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:41:36 --- join: dgd_ (~dgd@d389.maxtnt-1.jvl.ticon.net) joined #forth 16:44:28 --- quit: dgd_ (Client Quit) 17:33:13 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@dsl027-163-201.atl1.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #forth 18:13:25 RetroForth great, albeit a little 'fat' in the core for my liking. 18:13:59 how so? 18:19:26 * crc knows of a few bits of "fat", but nothing major 18:20:20 8.0 is leaner, and quite small if you drop the string words and block editor (the block editor isn't part of 7.x) 18:20:45 I've found that the line between minimalism and featurism is a hard one to walk 18:21:05 (and exactly what do you consider the "core")? 18:21:29 * crc will be going to bed in 5-10 minutes... 18:23:17 yes, I totally agree. IMHO, it is just a tad fat, nothing major. Minimalism to me is a goal, not necessarily obtainable. HOwever, ideally I strive for it. 18:23:25 so do I 18:39:27 Goodnight 18:41:01 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:48:28 --- join: dgd_ (~dgd@d240.maxtnt-1.jvl.ticon.net) joined #forth 18:58:13 --- quit: Topaz (Remote closed the connection) 19:22:26 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@dsl027-163-201.atl1.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #forth 19:33:33 --- mode: ChanServ set +l 83 19:48:01 --- join: Obakeneko[away] (yumehito@giguz.turbo.nsk.su) joined #forth 19:55:34 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:56:30 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@dsl027-163-201.atl1.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #forth 20:18:12 --- quit: yumehito (Connection timed out) 20:26:52 --- nick: dgd_ -> dgd 20:31:24 --- nick: dgd -> dgd_ 20:50:41 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 20:53:05 --- quit: SeaForth ("Leaving") 21:01:18 --- quit: raystm22 ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 21:24:18 --- join: SeaForth (~SeaForth@c-24-1-126-202.client.comcast.net) joined #forth 21:28:47 hi! 21:51:26 --- join: Svrog (~Svrog@ppp1C1A.dsl.pacific.net.au) joined #forth 22:37:25 --- join: Testament (CapStone@cs24160141-160.satx.rr.com) joined #forth 22:37:25 --- quit: p-Imperator (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:05:22 --- join: OrngeTide (orange@rm-f.net) joined #forth 23:05:27 hio 23:06:30 Hi, OrngeTide 23:06:50 how's it going? 23:07:12 Fine 23:07:21 my stupid wireless router stopped working. i spent $35 and it breaks after two years. geez 23:08:05 Time to pick up the tubes and build a ROBUST radio transciever. ;) 23:08:20 whoo.. tube xcvr? 23:08:40 Yes, for your wireless LAN! 23:08:55 hrm.. the worlds first 802.11g tube radio. 23:08:59 :) 23:09:33 i'd do 802.11a but it'd be hard to make one for 5Ghz 23:10:57 yesterday i broke my gumstix (arm/xscale dev board). this hasn't been my week 23:10:57 Modulate your microwave. :P 23:11:02 :( 23:11:59 and today i found out my program will never work on mac os x because my program requires makecontext/swapcontext. it's available on linux, *bsd, solaris, hp-ux, irix, etc. just not darwin/osx 23:12:04 * OrngeTide sighs. 23:12:28 there is even a version of it for windows. (but its called something else. does exactly the same thing though) 23:13:01 Heh, ouch 23:14:05 i can fix my gumstix. if i order a connector from one place, and jtag cables from another. then solder this itty bitty connector into the jtag's connector. then figure out how to use jtag in linux. 23:16:23 but it seems almost easier to just buy a new one 23:17:33 except i expect this to happen again, so if I invest in getting jtag to work it will pay off the second time I blow the boot rom up 23:24:25 --- quit: Svrog (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- *I* use it, so it must be good!") 23:42:45 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:56:17 --- quit: Herkamire ("bedee") 23:59:36 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@dsl027-163-201.atl1.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.01.07