00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.01.06 00:21:22 --- join: Jim7J1AJH (~jim@usen-221x115x224x2.ap-US01.usen.ad.jp) joined #forth 00:35:16 --- quit: aum () 05:14:44 --- join: Topaz (~top@81.99.124.117) joined #forth 05:23:34 Hi 05:24:10 'lo 05:29:59 --- join: lypanov (~alex@fw1.lunatech.com) joined #forth 05:30:03 la la la 05:30:20 any chance any of the gforth devels are ever around here or anywhere else? 05:31:22 Uhm. 05:32:00 If you see someone on the floor with blood in his face, that's either a C programmer or a gfort developer. 05:32:14 (both tend to be liked by other forthers) 05:35:57 lol 05:36:28 any chance of an explanation of that? :P 05:46:09 Well, gforth is rather big. 05:46:18 Forthers like it small (generally speaking). 05:48:20 okay. but gforth is very efficient right? 05:48:37 or you mean the base lib is large? 05:53:34 Efficient in what sense? 05:53:42 Good compiler? 05:53:42 runtime 05:53:49 interpreter 05:54:07 Hmmm... depends what you compare with. I've heard it's OK for being a threaded Forth. 05:54:44 * lypanov never did understand the whole forth thing 05:54:56 is there a wiki somewhere with a good summary of what forth is good at? 05:55:01 (with code preferably :)) 05:55:22 There is a number of Forth wikis 05:55:31 I'll feed you some links, one moment.. 05:55:36 thx :) 05:55:59 http://robos.org/links.html <-- actually, I put most Forth links on my home page. 05:56:21 Not included is http://forthfreak.net/ 05:56:42 There's also a bunch of colorForth specific materlai. 05:56:45 material* 05:58:38 --- join: Rayvin (~kbulgrien@saturn.vcsd.com) joined #forth 05:58:57 Robert: u've tried flat asm? 06:00:25 Yep. 06:00:38 I've switched to fasm from nasm 06:00:40 you're experienced in asm? 06:00:56 Because if the speed and some macro features. 06:01:05 Started about 5 years ago. 06:01:11 ok 06:01:18 could u possibly help with a q i've had for several weeks? 06:01:23 Perhaps 06:01:37 And hi, Rayvin 06:02:02 well. i need to generate asm, assemble it, run it, and have it call back into the c code that generated it 06:02:06 --- quit: SeaForth (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 06:02:09 is that possible with flat or nasm? 06:02:41 :-) Hi 06:02:43 You mean without relinking the C program? 06:02:49 yup 06:03:13 Hmm... I guess that's possible via some sort of interprocess communication. 06:03:16 i want the c to generate asm, and the asm to calculate a value, and then the asm calls the c with the value, and rpeat 06:03:24 Or possibly dynamic libraries. 06:03:32 too slow unfortunately :( 06:03:47 need it extremely fast 06:04:00 i guess only way i'll do able to is just to generate x86 myself :) 06:04:19 Yes. 06:04:27 Why do you need to generate the asm code run-time? 06:04:38 jit 06:29:36 --- quit: lypanov (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:30:09 Heh, lunatech.. 06:55:02 --- join: SeaForth (~SeaForth@24.1.126.202) joined #forth 06:56:41 --- quit: Topaz (No route to host) 06:59:55 --- join: bbls (~bbls@80.97.121.133) joined #forth 07:05:21 Hi 07:05:32 hi Robert 07:33:59 --- quit: Rayvin ("Client exited") 07:54:24 --- join: Topaz (~top@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust217.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 08:35:36 --- join: Danniken (~capstone@216-110-82-203.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 09:48:17 --- quit: swsch ("Leaving") 09:50:56 --- join: swsch (~stefan@swsch.sustaining.supporter.pdpc) joined #forth 09:53:21 --- quit: swsch (Client Quit) 10:10:24 --- join: dgd (~dgd@d355.maxtnt-2.jvl.ticon.net) joined #forth 10:12:00 Hi 10:14:24 hi! 10:14:44 What Forth do you use most? 10:18:16 Hmm... isForth. 10:18:26 (htt://isforth.clss.net) 10:18:39 And actually, I've been using my own one more lately. 10:18:45 http://robos.org/tforth/ 10:19:18 I ported Mad Apple Forth to Apple ProDOS years ago. 10:19:35 I still prefer Forth, but every new FORTH is a little different... 10:19:53 I'd like to get a handle on gforth if I can find the time... 10:25:10 --- quit: onetom ("leaving") 10:27:02 I have some mixed feelings about Forth. 10:27:21 I really like the simplicity and small size that is possible. 10:27:39 then? 10:27:44 what's the problem? 10:28:06 Well, first of all it can be hard to use, depending on the implementation. 10:28:29 And I also think that Forth isn't for ALL computer models and systems. 10:30:17 I love FORTH, and always did. I go waaaaaaaay back, and think it can be useful anywhere. 10:32:23 I remember FIG FORTH, and watching our 6502 FORTH multitask... 10:33:54 Hehe. :) 10:34:19 The 6502 is older than I am, so I don't have any such Forth memories. 10:35:04 When I was making the ProDOS port of MAF, I also created a 65802 variant - 16bit 6502 code. Loved that cpu! 10:36:13 like the 65816? 10:36:26 (SNES/super-famicom CPU) 10:38:47 The 65802 was the 65816 packaged in a 6502-pin-compatible package. 10:40:20 ah 10:41:23 Very nice, but you lost some of the memory accessability. 10:43:55 --- quit: dgd (Remote closed the connection) 10:43:56 --- join: dgd_ (~dgd@d206.maxtnt-2.jvl.ticon.net) joined #forth 10:44:04 --- quit: Danniken () 10:44:22 Did you get that? 10:48:41 Anyone use gforth? 10:48:49 Not I. 10:48:57 At least not very often. 10:50:12 I put the question to the LISP and FORTH group of why it seemed to take so long to learn the language... 10:50:36 That is, why are there no decent examples in books. 10:50:36 comp.lang.forth ? 10:50:43 Yes - and comp.lang.lisp 10:51:02 And Elizabeth Rather said it best, I think... 10:51:10 I thought it was pretty easy to learn. 10:51:14 "When you've learned one FORTH, ....." 10:51:23 An hour to learn, a lifetime to master. ;) 10:51:33 "... you've learned One FORTH." 10:51:39 Hehe. :) 10:52:37 LISP is a little better in that they have Common LISP, but it's still a far cry from being totally standardized 10:52:45 What happened to FORTH-83? 10:54:07 Some pople base their Forths on it. 10:54:17 But it's not like people follow the standard by the letter, 10:54:29 isForth is F83 based, I think. 10:56:33 I tried to learn F83 - had it for CP/M. 10:56:47 ...or do you man FORTH-83? 10:58:28 I was refering to the Forth 83 standard. Isn't that what F83 uses? 10:59:01 --- join: slava (~slava@CPE00096ba44261-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 10:59:09 Hi slava 10:59:11 why do people hate postfix assemblers? 10:59:25 i've discovered making 'macros' is very easy 11:01:13 F83 was a forth for CP/M by Laxen & Perry. 11:01:20 Guess that dates me, eh? 11:01:37 In fact, if you look at the Usenet maps, you'll find me with a CP/M system... 11:01:38 it hasn't changed much since then ;) 11:01:54 what CPU? 11:02:02 I tried to learn F-PC (and still have it somewhere...) 11:02:02 8080? 11:02:32 No.... 6Mhz Z80 and 4MHz 6502 coprocessing... 11:02:51 co-processing? 11:03:04 and it ran forth? 11:03:19 dgd_: My first (or second) computer was a CP/M one, but that's just because my school was giving away ancient hardware. 11:03:20 Not for Usenet, but yes. 11:03:54 It was an accelerated Apple II+ with a 5M Sider (hard drive), a special keyboard, and a Z80 Card. 11:04:04 I used UUCP for CP/M... 11:04:58 It was ZCPR3 I think but I can't remember for sure. 11:05:06 Look at deety.uucp ...still there. 11:07:24 Bonus points if you know who Deety is ;-) 11:07:54 * slava finds an unused instruction emitted by his compiler in one case 11:55:46 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 11:56:46 --- join: OrngeTide (orange@rm-f.net) joined #forth 11:58:27 Welcome! 12:01:30 --- join: Novocaine (~Guest@213-48-202-109.hay.cvx.blueyonder.co.uk) joined #forth 12:02:19 --- quit: Novocaine (Client Quit) 12:05:28 Pretty quiet... 12:05:41 :) 12:08:03 As usual. 12:08:27 What do you think of Rather's books on FORTH Programming? 12:09:48 Never read any, sorry. 12:12:09 Some day I'd like to get back into serious FORTH programming - maybe with the Mac, Sparc, or FreeBSD boots. 12:21:09 --- quit: Topaz (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:21:52 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp01375108pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:26:52 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 12:34:29 dgd_, what you need is a text editor written in forth that you can extend in forth. then you can do serious forth coding as a side-effect of your everyday activities 12:35:40 --- join: Topaz (~top@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust217.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 12:36:05 --- quit: Topaz (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:36:12 --- join: T0paz (~top@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust217.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 12:45:51 neat. the guy that did VSTa (a nifty super thin free microkernel) also did a forthos. http://www.forthos.org/ .. it's interesting how interests run parallel. 12:48:31 is it VSTa activelly developed? 12:52:11 not by the guy that wrote it. 12:52:30 there are a handful of people who still work on it. 12:52:42 most people have moved to L4 12:56:07 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp01375108pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 13:03:30 --- join: arke (apache@11.198.216.81.dre.siw.siwnet.net) joined #forth 13:15:03 --- quit: bbls () 13:15:57 --- quit: arke ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") 14:16:10 --- quit: OrngeTide ("bbl") 14:20:19 --- join: OrngeTide (orange@rm-f.net) joined #forth 14:22:08 oops. someone privmsged me but i exited without reading it and my logging was not enabled. could you repeat it again if it was important? 14:29:08 --- quit: crc (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 15:16:20 --- join: crc (~crc@pool-68-238-184-249.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 15:16:29 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 15:50:12 --- join: Frek (388-ident-@h229n2fls31o815.telia.com) joined #forth 16:05:17 --- quit: dgd_ ("Leaving") 16:09:10 --- quit: OrngeTide ("bye") 16:41:29 --- join: dgd (~dgd@d470.maxtnt-1.jvl.ticon.net) joined #forth 16:52:49 --- quit: dgd ("Leaving") 16:58:15 --- quit: T0paz (Remote closed the connection) 16:59:09 --- part: slava left #forth 16:59:48 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 17:20:24 --- quit: SeaForth (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 17:37:14 --- join: snowrichard (~richard@adsl-69-155-177-153.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 17:52:32 --- join: Hezbollah (CapStone@cs24160141-160.satx.rr.com) joined #forth 17:52:50 Mark are you in there? 17:53:11 Mark Manning? 17:53:16 yep 17:53:21 he's not here 17:53:28 ratZ 17:54:11 If he was, you'd see "i440r" as his nick 17:54:30 * crc hasn't seen him here for a while; it seems strange.... 17:54:46 I nkow. Was just hoping he was running stealth. I work with him. 17:54:53 ahh 17:55:43 Marks kewl as hell and I was just hoping to chat with him. 17:56:05 * crc wonders if the topic is keeping him away... 17:56:26 (Mark doesn't like blocks) 17:56:55 hehehe 17:57:19 as a joke ask him how his Delphi training is going ;) 17:57:40 hehe 17:58:05 I just might :) 17:58:20 I dont want to say much more or he might go high order 17:58:33 --- mode: ChanServ set +l 83 18:01:56 :) 18:02:10 He goes high order often enough anyway 18:04:26 --- nick: Hezbollah -> Torbernite 18:49:13 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@modem-017.nyc-tc04b.fcc.net) joined #forth 18:49:59 * TheBlueWizard sees the new /topic, and notes the word "blocks"....and is a bit puzzled 18:51:14 blocks are a way to store & organize code 18:51:27 Traditionally Forth systems organized code in 1k "blocks" 18:51:34 16 lines, 64 chars per line 18:51:45 It was a convienent way to map to the underlying hardware 18:52:03 Blocks are still useful today, as they encourage factoring of code 18:53:28 ok....some Forths don't use blocks...one such example I know is Tile Forth 18:54:01 Right 18:54:14 hence my being a bit puzzled...is blocks THAT integral to the idea of Forth? Hmm....some purists would say yes 18:54:23 And some would say no 18:54:33 :) 18:54:43 Two stacks aren't integral either though 18:55:10 * crc uses blocks heavily in RetroForth 8 18:55:24 but two stacks, a dictionary and an interactive interpreter are indeed definitive features of Forth 18:55:27 Things like PAD and TIB are just blocks in retro8 18:56:25 * TheBlueWizard can't think of any Forth that essentially discard the idea of two stacks (and I am not talking about trivial extensions like string stack or floating point stack) 18:56:35 mmhmm 18:57:03 Until last year, RetroForth only used one stack 18:57:17 The addition of >r r> and r make life easier though 18:58:09 though I notice a mention of RetroForth on en.wikipedia.org :) 18:58:16 hehe 18:58:25 I get several visitors a month from that 18:58:33 (close to 100 at last check) 18:58:39 hehe...a good plug, that 19:00:53 --- join: SeaForth (~SeaForth@c-24-1-126-202.client.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:01:50 yup 19:05:40 * crc sighs. Time to go to bed. 19:05:51 bye crc 19:05:52 I'll be back tomorrow 19:05:56 Goodnight tbw 19:14:00 --- quit: Sonarman (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:40:26 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 20:01:02 --- join: zoly (~l@ppp-82-135-1-105.mnet-online.de) joined #forth 20:01:10 g'day 20:01:18 hiya zoly 20:01:28 --- join: slava (~slava@CPE00096ba44261-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 20:01:40 for division, i need to store the sign extension of EAX in EDX 20:01:43 how can I do this? 20:03:16 hmm...IIRC there is an instruction CDW or CDL....do some lookup in ref manual 20:03:29 cdq 20:03:30 ok 20:03:35 0x99 opcode 20:03:41 * crc goes back to bed 20:03:53 and IIRC there are other tricks to do thew same w/o that instruction, but I've forgotten :) 20:04:01 :) 20:04:06 thanks, found it 20:04:19 :) 20:05:10 and IIRC you can exploit CDW/CDQ instruction to code up a branchless absolute value function 20:05:31 crc, the wiki markup to html converter i've been working on can do http links, displays http://....gif|png|jpg image links, does bold italics underscore now (and closes the
  • tag too now. 20:05:40 good 20:05:59 * crc hates having to go to bed so early... (11pm) 20:06:13 i only got up a few hours ago 20:06:28 about lunch time now 20:06:33 * TheBlueWizard notes that he and crc are in same timezone 20:06:40 tbw: cool 20:08:09 url: http://forthfreak.net/wikiprocessor.f 20:08:22 example output: http://www.forthfreak.net/wikitest 20:08:40 its 11pm here too :) 20:08:58 string stack? hmm 20:09:13 url is given in the source file 20:09:21 zoly: looks nice 20:09:26 thanks 20:09:41 thought you might like the style as your are a one-liner 20:10:42 I do 20:11:02 * crc might borrow some ideas from it for RetroWiki 2.0 20:11:47 sure. go ahead. the reason i started this was to prompt people into picking up and working on it too 20:11:58 there's talk for more than a year about wiki in forth 20:12:17 that's the reason why i tried to single-line it 20:12:27 so people can pick it up more easily 20:12:59 (i'm aware of that there ARE several forth-written wikis) 20:13:13 but those still have a pretty limited markup 20:14:19 i was thinking to not make the whole wiki as cgo 20:14:21 sgi 20:14:28 rather than that, just the save/preview 20:14:42 and have static html generated upon save 20:14:58 that way, browsing is just navigating through static pages 20:15:07 cgi ... 20:15:25 that was part of my plan for retrowiki 2 20:17:16 --- quit: slava ("Leaving") 20:20:40 --- quit: raystm22 ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 20:22:40 now I'm really going to bed. Goodnight! 20:22:55 gnite 20:36:17 --- quit: Robert ("THE CHINESE DID IT, I SWEAR") 20:49:37 --- join: Sonarman (~snofs@adsl-66-124-255-122.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 20:53:05 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 21:06:54 --- part: zoly left #forth 21:56:07 --- quit: Herkamire ("bed") 22:11:07 --- quit: Sonarman (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 22:14:52 --- join: Sonarman (~snofs@adsl-66-124-254-161.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 22:59:15 --- join: Robert_ (~pink@c-4d5a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 23:00:01 --- nick: Robert_ -> Robert 23:00:30 --- join: fridge (~Jim@CommSecureAustPtyLtd.sb1.optus.net.au) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.01.06