00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.01.03 00:03:18 Hi 00:12:20 --- quit: swsch_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:20:27 --- join: Svrog (~Svrog@ppp1C1A.dsl.pacific.net.au) joined #forth 00:23:06 Hi 00:23:16 hi 00:23:27 how's it going? 00:24:05 Pretty fine, I'm up early today ;) 00:24:22 early? what time is it there? 00:24:47 in Sweden? 00:27:00 9.25 00:27:22 7:25pm here 00:28:53 Oooh, the sun just rose. 00:28:57 * Robert tries his solar panel 00:29:06 hehe 00:31:21 Neat 00:32:05 what's it for? the solar panel. i mean what are you going to use it for? 00:32:19 Good question. :) 00:32:24 Hmmm 00:32:47 I could try to use it with my brainfuck computer. 00:33:04 But probably I'll build a little radio or something for it. 00:34:01 brainfuck computer? as in a brainfuck processor? 00:39:25 As in PIC with a brainfuck interpreter. 00:39:29 robos.org/bfcomp/ 00:39:38 very cool 00:40:24 not very useful but definitley cool :) 00:44:54 Hehe 00:45:18 I've been thinking about doing the same with a Forth interpreter, but.. 00:47:59 but what? 00:48:36 I'm lazy. :) 00:48:43 haha 00:54:44 ive been thinking about trying to make my own stack processor out of an fpga but i'll have to leave that alone for now.. i already have way too many unfinished projects :) 00:54:53 Hehe 00:54:56 not to mention i don't know anything about fpgas hehe 00:55:03 I'm learning about processor design now. 00:55:07 cool 00:55:13 Transistors and diodes are cheap these days. ;) 00:55:32 hehe 01:10:51 well im off for a bit 01:10:54 cya Robert 01:11:01 --- quit: Svrog (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- IRC has never been so cool") 02:01:05 --- join: aum (~aum@60.234.138.239) joined #forth 02:04:02 aum: Are you accusing Forthers of wanring unreadability? ;) 02:08:33 who, me?!? :O 02:09:50 No, of course not. You'd NEVER do such a thing. 02:10:40 i just added locals support to my forth, and rewrote my libs to use them - suddenly i can understand my own code, like a ton of bricks come from my shoulders, but it's not proper forth 02:11:19 I was thinking about something like that as well. 02:11:27 in proper forth, 'rot' is forbidden, 'r>' and '>r' are frowned upon, and 'pick' and 'roll' are sacrilege 02:12:08 I really like the basics of Forth, like the small and fast compilers, ease of implementation etc. 02:12:18 i love that too 02:12:23 But like you say, with no locals some programs just are a bitch to code. 02:12:29 totally 02:12:49 even worse to debug, and impossible to understand 3 months later 02:13:06 i realised today that my EPICforth can run on a smartcard 02:13:55 What do they consist of? 02:14:19 I was thinking about these cheap pocket calculators. It would be really cool to make a programmable one. 02:14:20 usually a microcontroller and a flash ROM 02:14:46 They sell them for like $1-$2 each and they run of a small solar cell (even in pretty dark rooms). 02:14:59 hey that's an idea - i should make a forth picket calculator 02:15:15 s/picket/pocket/ 02:15:27 Would be nice if one could have such a thing to do more advanced calculations on while travelling or just when you're out on a bike ride. 02:15:32 the keyboard would be a problem though 02:15:40 Depends. 02:16:12 Most such calculators have ~16 keys, right? Enough for a bunch of Forth primitives and the hex digits. I admit typing other things will be a bit tricky. 02:16:26 i could use a cellphone-style texting interface, but that would get painful 02:16:33 And I doubt making them a LITTLE larger costs very much. 02:16:54 Of course, won't be as comfortable as a real kb, but still 02:17:08 Way better than the cellphone solution. 02:17:35 that makes me think - keys to scroll through the forth wordnames 02:18:22 Hm, yeah. 02:18:35 But really, if you can fit 16 keys you can fit 32. 02:18:40 hopefully a 16x2 LCD would suffice 02:19:31 Yes.. 02:19:50 I remember switching from a cheap calculator to one of those 02:19:52 WOW. :) 02:20:03 A 32-char backlog! 02:20:17 i got started with programming in '76 with a programmable calculator 02:20:36 10 years before I was born then. 02:21:04 That one wasn't programmable. I started coding with QBasic in 97. 02:21:19 learned forth in '84, fell in love with it, got pissed off that i couldn't find any forth programming jobs, only C jobs 02:22:21 Hehe 02:22:41 * Robert doesn't want to think about what kind of jobs HIS generation will get 02:22:52 had this wonderful forth compiler on an apple ][ 02:22:55 But I hope Java will be dead. 02:23:22 while suits control the money markets, java will sadly endure (until/unless it's replaced by a similarly uptight language) 02:24:16 Perhaps I should join solar_angels communist Forth collective then. ;) 02:25:09 she's pretty hardcore ;) 02:25:27 but likeable 02:26:47 now i've got 'forth-on-a-small-circuit-board' working, the next issue is deciding what to /do/ with it 02:27:06 Hehe, I kind of have that problem as well. 02:27:18 If you find something cool, be sure to tell me! 02:27:57 a cruel part of me thinks of writing bomb-control modules, and the thought of a bomb-defusal expert trying to figure out what the forth code does 02:28:44 1:42... 1:41... 'what the hell does this word do?'... 1:40... 02:29:45 Haha 02:29:59 That's the Forther spirit. 02:30:05 hehe 02:30:53 Too bad calculators aren't very cost-effective unless manufactured in large quantities. 02:30:59 Because I really like that idea. 02:31:32 too bad no gadgets are cost-effective unless manufactured in large quantities 02:32:19 for one thing - imagine a circuit-board printer, that takes a layout in postscript, and etches/cuts/drills/masks the board 02:37:15 :) 02:37:29 Some things are pretty cheap anyway. 02:37:51 But these calculators need cases, keyboards, etc. 02:38:05 Hard for the average hobbyist to make 02:39:35 cases not too hard - there's an off-the-shelf case with a window for LCD and a surface for keyboard 02:45:58 Really? Cool. 02:46:06 Then it's just PCB, SMD mounting, etc. 02:46:20 * aum is not a big fan of smd 02:46:36 give the manufacturer a pcb layout and leave it to them 03:31:51 --- join: bbls (~bbls@80.97.121.133) joined #forth 03:33:38 hello 03:33:58 anyone knows a good forth compiler, that generates object files? (for x86) 03:37:07 as in, .o files? 03:37:11 yes 03:37:21 or better plain assembler source 03:37:22 interesting 03:37:38 as long as it's compilable with conventional toolchain, right? 03:37:49 yes 03:38:08 but it has to aboid any calls to stdlib 03:38:19 why? 03:38:25 because i'm going to see if i can write an x86 kernel in forth 03:38:45 you mean an os kernel? 03:38:50 yes 03:39:14 in that case, why do you want external toolchain compatibility? 03:39:27 there's a few forths that sit atop the bare metal of x86 boxen 03:39:43 like retroforth :) 03:39:53 because i need to work with the binary, like compressing, etc 03:40:25 bbls: I've never seen a forth that compiled to object files 03:40:40 compilers generating native code, yes, but no object files 03:40:40 why use hardware at all? why not implement the whole computer in forth? 03:45:17 there seems to be an unwritten rule against forth compilers supporting external tools 03:47:47 --- quit: bbls () 03:49:45 --- join: bbls (~bbls@80.97.121.133) joined #forth 04:00:45 --- join: SeaFORTH (~SeaFORTH@c-24-1-126-202.client.comcast.net) joined #forth 04:05:26 --- quit: saon ("Leaving") 04:54:00 --- join: Topaz (~top@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust217.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 05:32:12 --- join: T0paz (~top@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust117.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 05:48:39 --- quit: Topaz (Read error: 238 (Connection timed out)) 05:53:21 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 05:58:16 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp01375108pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 06:01:28 --- join: Raystm2 (~Ray@adsl-69-149-51-211.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 06:01:34 Hi Ray 06:02:43 Hi there, Robert, How was the holidays :) 06:03:54 Fine, thanks 06:04:00 Over there as well? 06:05:42 Yes. We had a very quiet and calm holiday. I give it 4 out of 5 stars :) 06:06:30 1 star off because I was broke the whole time :) 06:22:54 --- quit: SeaFORTH (Remote closed the connection) 06:24:55 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:30:28 --- join: SeaFORTH (~SeaFORTH@c-24-1-126-202.client.comcast.net) joined #forth 07:01:29 --- join: Sonarman_ (~snofs@adsl-64-169-94-91.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 08:35:17 --- join: snowrichard (~richard@adsl-69-155-177-153.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 08:38:54 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 09:26:16 --- quit: Sonarman_ (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 09:30:06 --- quit: bbls () 09:31:13 --- join: bbls (~bbls@80.97.121.133) joined #forth 09:33:41 --- join: arke (apache@11.198.216.81.dre.siw.siwnet.net) joined #forth 09:38:25 --- quit: bbls () 09:48:03 --- quit: SeaFORTH (tolkien.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:48:03 --- quit: yumehito (tolkien.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:48:03 --- quit: p-Imperator (tolkien.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:49:20 --- join: SeaFORTH (~SeaFORTH@c-24-1-126-202.client.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:49:20 --- join: yumehito (yumehito@giguz.turbo.nsk.su) joined #forth 09:49:20 --- join: p-Imperator (CapStone@cs24160141-160.satx.rr.com) joined #forth 09:50:35 --- quit: SeaFORTH (tolkien.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:50:35 --- quit: yumehito (tolkien.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:50:35 --- quit: p-Imperator (tolkien.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:51:19 --- join: SeaFORTH (~SeaFORTH@c-24-1-126-202.client.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:51:19 --- join: yumehito (yumehito@giguz.turbo.nsk.su) joined #forth 09:51:19 --- join: p-Imperator (CapStone@cs24160141-160.satx.rr.com) joined #forth 09:53:18 --- quit: skylan (Remote closed the connection) 09:53:31 --- join: skylan (~sjh@dialup-216-211-5-21.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 09:58:34 --- quit: skylan (Remote closed the connection) 09:58:57 --- join: skylan (~sjh@dialup-216-211-5-21.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 10:06:52 --- quit: arke ("CGI:IRC 0.5.4 (2004/01/29)") 11:05:39 --- join: bbls (~bbls@80.97.121.133) joined #forth 11:05:56 hello 11:11:48 --- quit: SeaFORTH ("Leaving") 11:44:18 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 11:59:18 --- join: SeaForth (~SeaForth@c-24-1-126-202.client.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:00:56 hello 12:10:33 hi snowrichard 12:11:05 hello bbls 12:11:37 tell me what feature you would like to see in a language? 12:20:00 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 12:20:14 implicit parameter passing, basically no synta 12:20:15 x 12:20:30 :) 12:20:35 you already got that 13:19:05 --- join: arke (apache@11.198.216.81.dre.siw.siwnet.net) joined #forth 13:50:15 --- quit: bbls (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 14:02:41 --- quit: arke ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") 15:08:02 well... when you implement your own language... you tend to already have the features you like to see =) 15:23:46 null-terminated strings versus count-prefixed strings versus 'addr u' strings 15:43:23 I like having a pointer to the begining of the string, with the count before that in memory 15:43:43 : count dup cell- @ ; 16:23:48 --- join: segher (~segher@p0827.nas1-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl) joined #forth 16:39:19 --- join: Sonarman (~snofs@adsl-209-233-52-32.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 16:46:25 * swsch is away: going ... going ... gone. 16:46:29 --- quit: swsch ("Leaving") 16:48:44 --- quit: T0paz (Remote closed the connection) 17:40:04 --- quit: aum (Remote closed the connection) 17:40:49 --- topic: set to 'Forth: Two stacks, a dictionary of word names and their definitions, and blocks' by crc 17:40:51 Hi all 17:41:18 howdy 17:42:17 crc: re: topic: also terminal input and output 17:42:21 * crc sees that the list of voiced people is dropping... I wonder who'll last the longest 17:42:38 Is terminal input a core part of Forth though? 17:43:04 i think so, yes 17:43:08 --- topic: set to 'Forth: Two stacks, a dictionary of word names and their definitions, and blocks. Terminal I/O is a also part of the package :)' by crc 17:43:09 lemme see... 17:43:21 What about embedded forths? 17:45:43 hrm, most (some?) embedded Forth's aren't ANS Forth compatible anyway, and then, anything goes :-) 17:45:50 :) 17:45:55 * crc doesn't do ANS forth 17:46:12 "real" Forth has an interactive interpreter, though 17:46:19 True enough 17:46:22 * segher does an ANS compatibility layer :-) 17:46:51 pretty hard to do interactivity, without a terminal ;-) 17:46:52 I can't support all of the ANS CORE words without making some major changes to my compiler. 17:47:08 You don't need a "real" terminal though 17:47:34 --- topic: set to 'Forth: Two stacks, a dictionary of word names and their definitions, blocks, and an interactive interpreter.' by crc 17:47:41 how's that? 17:48:36 * crc wishes ANS didn't require CAPITALIZED versions of each word name 17:49:24 ah true. i don't do that. 17:49:39 * crc does things like: 17:49:39 easy enough, of course, but... 17:49:44 : min : MAX ... ; 17:50:12 what does that do? 17:50:14 (retroforth supports multiple entry points into words; I'm trying to come up with a way to do this for the planned PPC port) 17:50:27 In x86 assembly, it'd look like: 17:50:29 min: 17:50:31 MAX: 17:50:33 .... 17:50:34 ret 17:50:55 I keep dictionary headers separate from the definitions 17:52:22 ah oh. and : is immediate, i guess? 17:54:28 Yup 17:54:54 There are two : words; one is a macro (immediate), the other is a normal word 17:57:36 got it 17:58:14 can't write : : : ; anymore, then, though ;-P 17:58:36 not in retroforth... 17:58:52 early bindings make that impossible anyway :) 17:59:27 do you mean you can't redefine words? 17:59:36 You can. 17:59:40 But if you do: 17:59:46 : foo ... foo ; 18:00:06 the foo at the end will refer to the most recently defined "foo", in this case, the word itself 18:00:35 (in this case, you get tail recursion) 18:01:05 --- join: saon (1000@c-24-129-90-197.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 18:02:20 * crc is playing with pcmcia network cards; if I get disconnected, I'll return quickly 18:03:37 hehe 18:06:55 --- join: crc_ (~crc@pool-70-20-240-48.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 18:07:38 --- quit: crc (Nick collision from services.) 18:07:41 --- nick: crc_ -> crc 18:07:47 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 18:08:11 * crc thinks he's connected again... 18:14:37 --- join: crc_ (~crc@pool-70-20-168-137.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 18:15:10 --- quit: crc (Nick collision from services.) 18:15:18 --- nick: crc_ -> crc 18:15:20 am I back? 18:16:00 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 18:16:33 ok, I seem to be connected again :) 18:18:26 --- quit: SeaForth (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:18:52 you're back, yes 18:18:53 --- join: Sonarman_ (~snofs@adsl-64-160-164-8.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 18:18:54 good 18:19:15 Now I can use the other pcmcia network card in my Jornada 680 ;) 18:30:25 --- quit: Sonarman (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:08:20 --- quit: Sonarman_ (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:30:33 --- quit: saon (Remote closed the connection) 19:34:53 --- join: Sonarman (~snofs@adsl-64-171-255-92.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 19:51:08 --- join: saon (1000@c-24-129-90-197.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 20:20:42 yeah, I prefer lowercase letters too 20:20:59 * crc goes to bed... 20:21:16 mmm... I wish irssi gave some indication that you left the chat window scrolled up 20:33:00 --- join: slava (~slava@CPE00096ba44261-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 20:33:52 Hi slava 20:33:56 Good morning 20:33:58 y0 20:34:05 3y 20:39:16 --- join: flippo (~frivol@63.227.116.241) joined #forth 20:39:25 --- part: flippo left #forth 20:39:51 --- join: ramza3 (~ramza3@c-24-30-12-41.mw.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 20:41:39 --- part: ramza3 left #forth 21:41:01 --- quit: segher ("Leaving") 21:47:23 --- quit: I440r_ (Remote closed the connection) 22:21:41 --- quit: Sonarman ("leaving") 22:54:16 --- quit: Teratogen (Connection reset by peer) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.01.03