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00:19:45 <Robert> Hi
00:27:58 <SeaForth> hi
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02:04:07 <SeaForth> latest release of SeaForth
02:04:08 <SeaForth> http://www.rafb.net/paste/results/N57ATT11.html
02:05:30 <Robert> Interesting way to publish it. ;)O
02:05:41 <Robert> brb, have to buy some food.
02:06:06 <SeaForth> http://www.rafb.net/paste/results/VqCHLh50.html
02:06:10 <SeaForth> and the online manual :)
02:23:13 <qFox> lol...
02:28:14 <SeaForth> hehehe, thanks.
02:28:19 <SeaForth> I feel so much better now.
03:24:31 * Robert returns
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03:49:48 <Robert> i
03:49:49 <Robert> Hi
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05:00:43 <aum> hi - seeking a forth implemented with the smallest possible number of code primitives, and the rest in forth - any suggestions?
05:06:38 <Robert> Hmmm
05:07:16 <Robert> Some MachineForth compiler, perhaps?
05:07:36 * aum finds GraspForth on forth.org, tries it out
05:18:36 * aum gives up on graspforth
05:18:48 <Robert> Hehe.
05:19:14 <aum> i've only got a couple hundred bytes of RAM 
05:21:08 <Robert> What will you use the RAM for?
05:21:20 <aum> variables, stacks, TIB,...
05:21:35 <Robert> I think my MTV Forth system uses about ~100 bytes for VM + Forth compiler
05:21:47 <aum> nice
05:21:48 <aum> link?
05:21:50 <Robert> Using a VM since the AVR code memory can't be written to
05:22:03 <aum> ahh, AVR
05:22:11 <Robert> Er, I think I removed it. Does DCC work or should I upload to a http serer?
05:22:15 * aum is using PIC, with external 32k EEPROM
05:22:28 <aum> send to david at freenet dot org dot nz
05:22:57 <aum> is it 8, 16 or 32-bit?
05:23:23 <Robert> Mixed 32- and 8-bit Forth
05:23:30 <aum> sounds good
05:23:56 <Robert> The code isn't all that useful (some bugs, and it's completely untested), but it might give you some ideas
05:24:04 <aum> i've been writing a 8/16/32-bit VM for PIC, uses 3-6k ROM depending on config
05:25:59 <Robert> k words or kbytes?
05:26:05 <aum> words
05:26:27 <aum> but that includes an intel hex bootloader, plus diags
05:26:52 <Robert> I think this VM is about 1k words.
05:27:15 <aum> how many primitives?
05:28:11 <Robert> About 30
05:28:21 <Robert> Ehm, that is 48
05:30:43 <Robert> Hm... seems like the Forth system itself is about 4.5kB (bytecode)
05:35:00 * aum gets the idea to implement a linear memory map, so for @ and !, addresses 0000-1fff are program mem, 2000-21ff are RAM, 2200-22ff are on-chip EEPROM, 2300-7fff is empty or wrapped, 8000-ffff, 10000-17fff, etc are 32k eprom chips
05:37:03 <Robert> That's how I did it.
05:37:26 <Robert> Except I used DataFlash chips
05:37:33 <aum> ok
05:37:46 <aum> i'm using 24LC256 I2C Serial EEPROM chips
05:37:55 <aum> easy 2-wire interface to PIC
05:37:59 <Robert> Hehe
05:38:07 * Robert has a pile of such chips
05:38:16 <Robert> Samples, mmm. ;)
05:38:35 <aum> i can't stand the idea of 28-40 pin mem chips eating up all the PIC's I/O pins
05:41:30 <Robert> Those are SPI 
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05:48:07 <aum> a tiny PCB the size of a 28-pin DIP IC could have an SMD PIC, 1 or 2 EEPROMS, crystal, max232 etc - and would kinda amount to 'forth on a chip'
05:48:45 <Robert> :)
05:48:48 <Robert> Hi solar_angel 
05:49:06 <Robert> aum: What will you use it for?
05:49:09 <solar_angel> hello Robert :)
05:49:14 * solar_angel is toying with DSP code.
05:49:22 <aum> sounds intense
05:49:29 <solar_angel> not all that intense...
05:49:38 <aum> Robert: i'm building some biofeedback gadgets
05:49:53 <solar_angel> although i really have to write an FFT soonish....  my bass boost has a really aweful filter kernel, i'd like to whip up a new one.
05:50:36 <solar_angel> and writing an FFT convolutor would be cool too, then i could add a much more realistic reverber filter beside the existing comb/allpass one that i have in there now
05:50:41 <aum> i need to find a forth written almost totally in pure forth, with clear description of the (minimal set of) required primitives
05:50:48 <solar_angel> (i wrote the bass boost filter kernel by hand.  it's crap)
05:50:57 <solar_angel> aum - why not just write one?
05:51:08 <solar_angel> i've written a couple forths...  it's not that hard.
05:51:14 <solar_angel> have you read 'moving forth'?
05:51:14 <aum> time
05:51:18 <aum> no
05:51:24 <solar_angel> ah, well, it's your starting point, i think
05:51:26 <aum> is it downloadable?
05:51:30 <solar_angel> it's online
05:51:40 * aum googles
05:57:33 <Robert> http://www.fig-uk.org/byof.htm <-- also useful.
05:58:35 <Robert> solar_angel: How is the homebrew IC project going?
05:58:44 <solar_angel> homebrew IC?
05:58:48 <solar_angel> you mean the blobtronics?  or something else?
05:59:01 <solar_angel> i've got a cool 3-pin 5V-to-12V converter now.
05:59:08 <solar_angel> entirely in a blobtronic module
05:59:11 <Robert> Blobtronics?
06:00:02 <Robert> I got "Automatic Digital Calculators" from the library. 1953 computer construction manual.
06:00:05 <solar_angel> the GPM (Glue-Potted Module) technology :)
06:01:41 <Robert> You were talking about producing your own semiconductors
06:01:55 <solar_angel> ah.  still don't have a workshop again yet
06:02:01 <solar_angel> so it's still on the drawing board
06:02:38 <Robert> I'm still working at the transistor computer project (which is why I got that book - back then they didn't waste transis^W tubes)
06:03:28 <solar_angel> heh
06:03:36 <solar_angel> RTL or DTL is your best bet
06:03:41 <solar_angel> and use a lot of JK flip-flops
06:04:47 <solar_angel> i personally prefer DTL
06:05:06 <solar_angel> i had a transistor-computer project of my own on the go for a while, although space constraints are still pinning me in
06:05:14 <solar_angel> that said, i'm building a really nice Z80 machine
06:05:21 <solar_angel> 8MB of RAM....
06:05:31 <solar_angel> VGA, ethernet, serial, parallel
06:05:44 <solar_angel> that's the plan, anyway
06:05:53 <solar_angel> i think the VGA card is a frightful monstrosity
06:05:53 <Robert> Cool
06:06:02 <aum> nite all
06:06:07 <solar_angel> i'll be lucky to cram it into a three-layer card stack
06:06:08 <Robert> Night aum 
06:06:43 <Robert> It'll probably be a mix between DTL an RTL, whichever happens to require the least components in a certain location.
06:06:59 * solar_angel nods
06:07:26 <solar_angel> i'd highly reccomend using pure DTL
06:08:02 <solar_angel> RTL is really nasty
06:08:07 <Robert> Why?
06:08:08 <solar_angel> low noise margins, high current consumptions
06:08:13 <solar_angel> low speeds
06:09:04 <Robert> What exactly is "pure" DTL, anyway? Where are resistors used?
06:09:34 <solar_angel> well, there are generally 2 resistors, 3 diodes and a transistor in a standard DTL NAND gate
06:09:50 <Robert> Yeah.
06:09:54 <solar_angel> you can pretty much do everything with DTL NAND gates
06:10:06 <solar_angel> they have good noise margins, good operating characteristics...  they're just decent stuff
06:11:20 <Robert> Considering I work with discrete transistors, wouldn't it make sense to use better optimized solutions than basing everything on NAND gates?
06:11:40 <solar_angel> there are a few more efficient latch circuits that you can use
06:11:43 <solar_angel> other than that, no, not really
06:11:51 <solar_angel> NAND gates are pretty damn efficient
06:12:02 <solar_angel> remember that you can do minterms easily with just two levels of NAND's
06:12:14 <solar_angel> and at one transistor per NAND, it's hard to go wrong
06:12:23 <solar_angel> diodes aren't substantially expensive
06:12:28 <Robert> Minterms?
06:12:31 <solar_angel> and you can make a 4-input NAND gate from a 2 input and 2 extra diodes
06:12:41 <solar_angel> oh.  you don't know minterms?
06:12:48 <Robert> Nope.
06:13:01 <solar_angel> oh.
06:13:14 <solar_angel> well, minterms are sum-of-products.  you can pretty much make any combinational logic using them.
06:13:24 <solar_angel> with only two levels of logic
06:13:40 <solar_angel> generally you'll use a bunch of smaller NAND's and a single larger NAND to arrive at any single signal from any cluster of other signals
06:19:22 <Robert> Do you have any link to those more efficient latch circuits?
06:19:46 <solar_angel> nope.  mostly because i would likely just design them if i were using them.
06:20:02 <Robert> I found a wikipedia article in minterms btw
06:20:13 * solar_angel is scared of wikipedia these days.
06:20:18 <Robert> How come?
06:20:42 <solar_angel> if you want to get scared, click the 'discussion' tab sometime.  or watch a large page for a week or two
06:20:58 <solar_angel> wikipedia, i swear, is drama central.
06:21:00 <solar_angel> makes irc look tame
06:21:17 <Robert> Haha, I think I prefer not to be scared.
06:21:42 <Robert> About the latches - then I guess that's what I'll do.
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06:27:36 <Robert> Hi Serg
06:29:43 <Serg_penguin> hi
06:29:51 <Serg_penguin> happy new year ;)))
06:30:02 <Serg_penguin> our company is all drinking ;)
06:30:28 <Robert> Hehe
06:30:34 <Serg_penguin> did i tell you i bought new lens for my fake-leica ?
06:30:38 <Robert> If you don't drink you have something to hide, right? ;)
06:30:44 <Serg_penguin> aha
06:30:48 <Robert> Hmm... don't think so
06:31:03 <Serg_penguin> 35/2.8 Sonnar
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06:31:19 <Serg_penguin> six elements in three groups
06:31:44 <Serg_penguin> test-drive film is in development
06:32:06 * Serg_penguin wants 16mm
06:37:39 <Serg_penguin> how is your education and radio hobby ?
06:46:56 <Robert> Haven't used the radio in a while
06:47:06 <Robert> And education... I'm currently educating myself. ;)
06:51:48 <Serg_penguin> how so ?
06:52:12 <Serg_penguin> oops, gotta run, see u after 11jan
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07:10:43 <Robert> Hi
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09:34:56 <Robert> Hi
09:46:55 <Herkamire> g'morning :)
09:54:49 <SeaForth> good morning
09:55:30 * Robert throws some old electrolytes at Herkamire 
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12:33:00 <SeaForth> Yesterday I was asking some questions about OF, and my eMac...  I found this link helpful and though others with macs and interested in OpenFirmware would like to read about the boot process of a new world mac.  http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn1167.html
12:37:02 <SeaForth> this is frightening, an FCode song for OF  http://bananajr6000.apple.com/1275/misc/ofwsong.au
12:38:02 <Herkamire> cool, I'll check it out
12:45:04 <Herkamire> pretty funny there's an fcode song
12:46:01 <Herkamire> SeaForth: what are you thinking of doing with Open Firmware?
12:46:27 <Herkamire> tathi has put together some very nice information for writing an operating system here: http://herkamire.com/jason/open_firmware
12:48:50 <SeaForth> Herk, I'm not sure about using OF for much of anything really.  I'm just impressed that I have a FORTH box sitting on my desktop, and so doing an OS with it if you will would be pretty neat.  Something forthy, fast, and furious.
12:50:09 <SeaForth> Seems like a powerful thing to have, and it doesn't do much other than bootstrap the OS into existance on the hardware.  I would like to see it working as a complete environment, if for no other reason, speed, fun factor, novelty.
12:50:17 * SeaForth thinks he has too much time on his own hands.
12:52:01 <SeaForth> I just love the Apple F2C calculations...  From the eMac spec sheet http://www.apple.com/emac/specs.html, we have 'Storage temperature: -40° to 116° F (-40° to 47° C)'
12:52:06 <Herkamire> it certainly seems to be complete enough that you could build anything on top of it
12:52:50 <Herkamire> I wrote a little script for it once that let my use it in Dvorak :)
12:53:21 <SeaForth> well, it would seem indeed that -40 F is -40 C, I stand corrected.
12:53:39 <Herkamire> heh :)
12:53:45 <Herkamire> yeah, I had to check on that too
12:53:58 <SeaForth> -40 2c s 2f s
12:53:58 <SeaForth> 40 -40 40 -40  ok..
12:55:32 <SeaForth> 0sp -40 2c s 2f s
12:55:32 <SeaForth> -40 -40  ok.
12:55:45 <SeaForth> that is better, I typed 40 by accident on the first attempt and forgot it on the stack.
12:56:29 * SeaForth is learning a boatload about FORTH right now, and enjoying it.  After reading for 4-5 years, and desiring his own FORTH experience, time has come :)
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15:24:15 <crc> hi all
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19:38:35 <SeaForth> crc, hello
19:41:54 * crc is trying to sleep :(
19:42:19 <SeaForth> oh, well goodnight then.
19:43:00 <crc> I'll be here tomorrow night :)
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20:18:16 <Robert> Morning
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22:00:43 <Robert> Hi
22:02:19 <Sonarman> hi
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22:40:22 <snowrichard> hello
22:41:45 <Robert> Hi snowrichard 
22:41:54 <snowrichard> Hello Robert
22:42:13 <snowrichard> I got my 100 percent disability rating letter today
22:42:52 <Robert> So what does that mean? Any more money? ;)
22:42:52 <snowrichard> the VA thinks I can't handle my money and want to appoint someone to look after it.
22:42:58 <snowrichard> the money the same
22:43:04 <Robert> Oh
22:43:13 <Robert> That's no fun :/
22:43:26 <snowrichard> it means if I figure out a way to earn extra it doesn't count against me anymore.
22:43:55 <snowrichard> I am working on a GTK+ GUI for a recording studio setup.
22:44:14 <Robert> Neat
22:44:27 * Robert still has to learn (decent) GUI coding
22:44:38 <Robert> Was forced to do some msvc++ in high school, but that's it.
22:44:38 <snowrichard> Glade 2 does the GUI coding for you
22:44:48 <snowrichard> you just write the callbacks
22:44:54 <Robert> Glade? Never heard of
22:45:06 <snowrichard> It is a GUI designer
22:45:19 <Robert> Ah
22:45:21 <snowrichard> generates C++ or C code
22:45:39 <snowrichard> you can also use the xml description of the gui with some others like python
22:45:39 <Robert> Something like Borland's C++ Builder?
22:46:15 <snowrichard> I haven't seen borland product
22:46:41 <snowrichard> I used to use Visual C for windows when I had a 386 many years ago, and this is much simpler
22:47:16 <snowrichard> of course the compile time is much less now too :) 
22:47:48 <snowrichard> I was googling for something the other day and turned up the log for this channel
22:48:26 <snowrichard> They didn't have PC's when I was in high school :))
22:48:55 <snowrichard> first computer I programmed on was an IBM mainframe
22:51:56 <snowrichard> I have everything in this room running through my mixer (cassette recorder, computer, sat dish/vcr)
22:52:20 <Robert> Yeah, this channel logs turns up everywhere
22:52:49 <Robert> I don't use much more than the computer's audio output, really
22:53:01 <snowrichard> Well I was searching for stuff about forth so it is not surprising
22:53:03 <Robert> But I got a cassette recorder hooked up to it
22:53:23 <Robert> Google can suprise you
22:53:37 <snowrichard> ever use Audacity? it is a sound editor
22:53:41 <Robert> I once searched for some chemical name which I didn't know what it was, and I got a hit on my own page
22:53:44 <Robert> Nope
22:54:14 <snowrichard> It works well with my Mandrake 10.0 setup
22:55:06 <snowrichard> I can overdub vocals and cut out stuff that I don't need
22:55:25 <snowrichard> like station breaks and commercials.
22:56:30 <Robert> Cool, is it free?
22:56:45 * Robert found it in ap
22:56:47 <Robert> apt*
22:56:58 <snowrichard> yes free (you can build from source if you like but I used the rpm
22:57:23 <snowrichard> you have debian
23:01:05 <snowrichard> I have some music channels on the satellite dish from Sirius radio.  
23:02:14 <Robert> Satellite radio? Never heard of that before
23:02:51 <snowrichard> There are two systems in the US here, XM and Sirius.  But I am picking them up on the TV disk
23:02:52 <snowrichard> dish
23:03:13 <snowrichard> they make car systems and portables.
23:03:42 <snowrichard> there is a subscription fee but they don't have commercials
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23:08:29 <snowrichard> a split.... go away for a second and see what  happens :) 
23:10:59 <Robert> Hmm..audacity runs
23:11:09 <Robert> Too bad this computer only got a mic input
23:11:15 <snowrichard> no line in?
23:11:25 <Robert> Nope
23:11:31 <Robert> It's just a laptop
23:12:48 <snowrichard> listening to "Freebird" now (southern rock)
23:13:51 <snowrichard> I am editing out the station breaks in this 30 minute tape side
23:14:45 <snowrichard> then I save it as an ogg file in my broadcast directory for my icecast server
23:16:08 <snowrichard> need to refill my coffee....
23:16:42 <Robert> One should make an automatic ad removing program
23:17:56 <snowrichard> how could it tell  the difference?
23:19:17 <snowrichard> has anybody actually read all of the DPANS document? it could cure insomnia I think :)
23:19:35 <snowrichard> the forth standard draft
23:23:19 <snowrichard> teenage wasteland
23:23:25 <snowrichard> (song)
23:24:13 <Robert> Nope, never read it
23:24:29 <Robert> If nobody follows it...
23:24:35 <Robert> then I won't bother. :)
23:24:58 <snowrichard> I need to go out and see if I got any mail today.
23:27:56 <snowrichard> nope
23:27:59 <snowrichard> no mail
23:28:45 <snowrichard> my brother is learning LISP
23:29:11 <Robert> That's one of my "will do....some day" projects
23:29:39 <snowrichard> have you ever looked at "Linux from scratch".
23:33:00 <snowrichard> compile everything from source (with no automation)
23:33:59 <snowrichard> he's a software engineer with Raytheon (missile guidance)
23:35:21 <Robert> I haven't used it, only heard of it
23:35:22 <snowrichard> you have xmms?
23:35:25 <Robert> Yep
23:35:53 <snowrichard> my stream is: http://veteransinaction.info:8000/richard.ogg
23:36:17 <Robert> Listening now
23:37:17 <Robert> Building a Linux system from scratch is a bit of work
23:37:23 <Robert> I tried to do some of it for a boot floppy
23:39:40 <snowrichard> I'd like to find out how to make a "live CD" bootable with my own code on it.  (Studio in a box)
23:41:40 * Robert would like to experiment with audio analysis on small chips
23:41:49 <Robert> These cheap PICs with A/Ds are pretty cool
23:42:07 <Robert> And I'm wondering if they have the power to do proper decoding of more advanced modulations
23:42:27 <Robert> Would be VERY cool to use a shortwave interface to a small and simple computer
23:43:38 <snowrichard> licensing would be a problem in this country
23:43:45 <snowrichard> (for the spectrum)
23:44:51 <snowrichard> Did you look at that single board ARM system that was the topic here a few days ago?
23:48:42 <Robert> Hmm... I had a look at one of those "tiny computer" links
23:49:10 <Robert> And licensing, yeah... I got a ham license, and you can always stretch the rules of that a bit
23:49:31 <snowrichard> on Ryze.com there is a guy named Edward Cherlin who is promoting the use of what he calls a simputer.  It is linux with a touch-screen and arm processor, runs on solar power.
23:49:43 <Robert> Heh, neat
23:49:50 <Robert> I actually got a solar panel recently
23:49:52 <snowrichard> wireless too
23:49:57 <Robert> 80mA a 4.5V it says
23:50:16 <Robert> Certainly enough to power a transmitter
23:50:30 <Robert> Too bad it requires direct sunlight for that much
23:50:39 <Robert> And we don't get much of that up here
23:50:55 <snowrichard> now I am doing the export to ogg file. takes a while
23:50:57 <Robert> So one would have to use some backup battery system
23:51:02 <Sonarman> do solar panels only get their power from visible light, or also from ultraviolet or infrared?
23:51:13 <snowrichard> We have lots of sun here.  (Texas)
23:51:30 <Robert> Sonarman: Let's do an experiment!
23:51:37 * Robert has some blue LEDs and a solar panel
23:52:03 <snowrichard> you need the big flashlights the police use :) 
23:52:39 <Sonarman> how would a blue LED be useful for this experiment?
23:52:50 --- join: aum (~aum@60.234.138.239) joined #forth
23:53:20 <Robert> Just checking for some response
23:53:23 <Robert> And I got some
23:53:48 <aum> hi all
23:53:59 <Sonarman> do they emit UV?
23:54:00 <Robert> Hi aum 
23:54:07 <Robert> Sonarman: No, but blue light
23:54:11 <Robert> Which is kinda UV
23:54:22 <Robert> I got some IR ones as well
23:54:23 <Sonarman> ok, get a red LED then :)
23:54:25 <Sonarman> ah
23:54:38 <Robert> And just for you I'll try
23:55:06 <snowrichard> because of my color blindness I had problems with seeing at night on the ship if I went from white light to the red lights , so they put in blue tubes for night time in my computer shop for me
23:56:48 <Robert> Stronger response than from the blue LED
23:57:06 <Robert> snowrichard: Which kind of color-blindness?
23:57:10 <Robert> I'm only red-green
23:57:16 <snowrichard> red-green I think
23:57:35 <snowrichard> red looks very dark to me
23:57:58 --- quit: aum ()
23:58:23 <Robert> Hmmm
23:58:29 <Robert> I have a bunch of IR LEDs
23:59:01 <Robert> Should connect them and see if one can see some IR when it's really dark
23:59:38 <Sonarman> i recall reading that it's actually possible to see X-Rays
23:59:50 <Sonarman> but it's not very wise to try it
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.12.30