00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.12.28 00:06:56 --- quit: OrngeTide ("leaving") 01:13:22 --- join: swsch (~stefan@swsch.sustaining.supporter.pdpc) joined #forth 01:45:15 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 01:48:22 Hi 01:51:35 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 02:17:14 --- join: Topaz (~top@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust217.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 06:33:47 --- nick: saon|ZzZ -> saon 07:05:24 --- quit: I440r (Remote closed the connection) 07:17:24 --- quit: Danniken () 07:31:13 --- join: sam_ (~sam@203-114-131-29.inspire.net.nz) joined #forth 07:33:09 --- join: snowrichard (~richard@adsl-69-155-177-153.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 07:34:32 Hi 07:35:07 hi robert 07:36:34 --- quit: snowrichard (Client Quit) 07:53:40 --- quit: sam_ (tolkien.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:53:41 --- quit: fmacs (tolkien.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:53:41 --- quit: warpzero (tolkien.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:55:44 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@wza.us) joined #forth 07:58:19 --- join: fmacs (BenjaminMe@68.187.224.130) joined #forth 07:58:55 --- join: sam_ (~sam@203-114-131-29.inspire.net.nz) joined #forth 07:59:18 --- quit: sam_ (Operation timed out) 07:59:49 --- join: sam_ (~sam@203-114-131-29.inspire.net.nz) joined #forth 08:17:40 --- quit: fmacs ("ChatZilla 0.9.52B [Mozilla rv:1.6/20040113]") 08:56:18 --- join: I440r (~mark4@216-110-82-203.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 09:08:09 Hey I440r 09:08:14 They've been looking for you 09:08:53 The Hezbollah. 09:11:02 lol no it was someone from work lol 09:11:12 ill tell him you were calling him a terrorist :) 09:21:18 Actually he joined as Hezbollah. 09:21:28 So you could tell him that he IS a terrorist. 09:21:44 Then you terrorize him a bit with Forth. 09:22:06 btw, I and crc did some Forth benchmarking with isForth and others yesterday. 09:22:46 The isForth "fib" definition was about 5 times slower than asm code, and faster than most other forths. 09:23:42 Night 09:25:09 --- quit: robert ("Natti") 09:45:05 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 09:50:12 --- part: sam_ left #forth 09:55:28 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp01375108pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:09:54 --- quit: saon ("Leaving") 11:25:12 --- join: arke (f2@bespin.org) joined #forth 11:29:09 teh hies 11:44:27 --- join: slava (~slava@CPE00096ba44261-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 11:52:36 --- quit: Topaz (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:13:35 --- quit: arke ("Lost terminal") 12:24:32 to all the garbage collection skeptics: GC acounts for around 0.2% of factor's runtime :) 12:25:50 with what kind of application? 12:27:07 compiler 12:27:27 and mandelbrot renderer 12:27:35 anything else you can't measuer gc overhead its too low 12:28:26 wait until I find some time to try it and do something horrendous. 12:28:58 bad coding will make anything slow 12:31:47 I aim to please :-) 12:39:26 --- join: Teratogen (~leontopod@intertwingled.net) joined #forth 14:09:17 --- quit: raystm22 ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 14:55:10 --- join: Frek (6180-ident@h229n2fls31o815.telia.com) joined #forth 15:18:29 --- join: Topaz (~top@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust217.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 15:39:35 --- join: SeaForth (~todd@c-24-1-126-202.client.comcast.net) joined #forth 16:00:16 anyone have a definitive document on forth interpreter/implementation? I have finished at this point what I consider a 'good' stab at a 3 day project of building a forth interpreter that does the very basics, emulating 16:00:55 a forth interpreter. However, I don't support compiles and word creation within the forth itself and such feel it is really a .5-forth kinda thing. 16:09:22 --- quit: slava ("Leaving") 16:13:12 anyone here done both ITC and DTC implementations of FORTH? 16:13:48 I'm looking for and explaination and justification of using one over the other while using a high level scripting language as the means of implementation for the FORTH system. 16:39:07 --- quit: qFox (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:39:07 --- quit: p-Imperator (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:39:16 --- join: p-Imperator (~SPOOK@cs24160141-160.satx.rr.com) joined #forth 16:47:56 --- quit: swsch ("Leaving") 16:49:29 SeaForth : A good document is "Moving Forth" by Robert Rodriguez (I think that's the name) 16:49:51 Explains the innner interpreter implemented in DTC, ITC and STC 17:22:59 --- quit: Topaz (Remote closed the connection) 17:26:11 --- join: aum (~aum@60.234.138.239) joined #forth 17:59:43 hi all 18:16:05 --- quit: Teratogen (Ping timeout: 14400 seconds) 18:46:57 --- join: I440r_ (~mark4@216-110-82-59.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 18:55:00 --- join: Robert (~purple@c-4d5a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 18:57:38 Hi Robert 18:59:49 * crc has reduced RetroForth 8.0 (without the block environment) to 4048 bytes :) 19:02:30 Hi, feeling better now? 19:02:39 That's pretty good. 19:03:19 Yeah 19:03:36 * crc is tired, but he worked over 13 hours straight today 19:04:55 * aum tinkers away at perfecting EPICforth - a bytecode VM forth on PIC micro, executes code resident in off-chip serial Eeprom 19:05:27 aum: cool 19:05:43 * crc wants to try some embedded Forth stuff next year... 19:05:58 slow as heck compared to native PIC code, but has easy mech for adding primitives 19:06:35 IMO, Forth really comes into its own in embedded environments 19:09:41 My ultimate goal is to build a Forth CPU 19:09:42 crc: you should buy a PIC chip or n, and try out PicForth 19:10:11 does PicForth run on the PIC chip, or is it a tethered system? 19:10:19 crc: afaik, n x 10^6 people have worked on a Forth CPU, but none has materialised 19:10:29 crc: PicForth runs native on the PIC chip 19:10:34 cool 19:11:07 PicForth is actually a gforth application, that contains words for generating PIC standalone binaries, disassembly, symbol maps etc 19:11:15 hmm 19:11:29 * crc would have to "apt-get install gforth" then :( 19:11:40 that's not hard :) 19:11:42 * crc dislikes gforth 19:12:01 just use gforth for hosting PicForth, use your favourite Forth for other stuff 19:12:13 or perhaps you could port PicForth to your favourite Forth 19:12:21 I'd rather recode Picforth in RetroForth 19:12:38 PicForth is just one Forth source file, picforth.fs, plus a couple of supporting libs 19:12:43 Hmm 19:12:51 It should be doable... 19:12:55 --- quit: Testament () 19:12:58 URL? 19:13:27 http://www.rfc1149.net/devel/picforth 19:14:24 the PicForth VM is just 2 machine-words to set up the data stack 19:14:34 PicForth uses the PIC native return stack 19:15:45 hmm 19:15:53 warning though - PicForth has some bugs with program and data memory bank selection - bugs strike rarely, but cause problems for some 19:15:59 What does: : picasm only metacompiler also picassembler definitions also forth ; do? 19:16:33 picasm creates a 'mode' called 'picasm', which the compiler uses to compile assembler statements down to binary 19:16:42 so you can embed assembler statements in your word definitions 19:16:45 Hmm 19:17:07 * crc would have to remove that 19:17:38 it's up to you 19:19:40 I don't like layers 19:20:32 If a person doesn't know binary - then why is he in front of a binary computing machine? 19:20:45 ? 19:21:04 Sorry 19:21:05 anyone here who /doesn't/ use binary when counting on their fingers? 19:21:25 I rarely count on my fingers. 19:21:40 Last time I did however, I had 1010 of them. 19:21:51 heh 19:22:09 * aum considers learning how to count in ternary on fingers 19:22:48 OK, and I'll use base e. 19:23:37 * crc will use base 60 then 19:23:48 Good luck. :) 19:24:13 * crc searches for extra fingers and toes... 19:25:08 hmm, using all fingers/toes and external appendages with changable state gives 22 digits for males 19:25:23 Only 38 to go, then. 19:28:03 * crc gives up on counting in base 60 19:28:36 Maybe I should have RetroForth 8 start up in some weird base... 19:29:10 oh wait, i forgot eyes, that makes it 24 19:29:46 * crc tries base 6 (1000 decimal = 4344 in base 6) 19:30:12 1000 is 1hg in base 24 :) 19:30:37 and more digits - elbows, shoulders, wrists, knees, ankles, hips - that makes 36 digits all up, allowing for a lot of counting 19:30:51 hmm do you consider a firmware returning a bogus device tree lying despite if it's intentionally or caused by a bug ? 19:31:29 1000 decimal = rs in base 36 :) 19:31:37 Heh. 19:31:47 Night-time software philosophy. 19:32:36 * crc will be going to bed soon... 19:33:11 Robert: nah it's just I've been in an argument with a vendor, I said their firmware lied and make up stuff (it returns bogus non existant features of certain devices) and they got upset and said it don't lie ? no how come it returns inaccurate info then ? it's a bug, it don't lie! 19:33:34 to me a lie is incorrect information no matter if it's intentional or not. 19:34:37 Hah. :) 19:35:06 Frek: write your own firmware :) 19:35:22 crc: it's not that simple :) 19:35:38 I know that; I've tried 19:35:39 it's not a firmware vendor I'm arguing with but an device vendor 19:36:07 if I had all the necessary information I would consider using something like OpenBIOS or so 19:36:48 but there's alot about this hardware that I don't know about; and I consider it a sin returning inaccurate information in the device tree 19:37:31 (it's based around smartfirmware btw; but I donno how much they hacked it up etc) 19:45:35 goodnight (be back tomorrow if all goes well at work...) 19:51:41 Night 19:52:16 --- join: wandelf (~Olorin@h165.52.40.69.ip.alltel.net) joined #forth 19:53:10 --- quit: aum () 20:00:04 Hi wandelf 20:29:32 --- join: saon (1000@c-24-129-90-197.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 22:24:45 hello all. 22:25:31 --- quit: rsync (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 22:26:06 Hi SeaForth 22:26:08 And saon 22:41:14 --- quit: Herkamire ("bed") 22:57:16 --- join: raystm22 (~color4th@adsl-68-95-248-153.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 22:58:47 --- join: Raystm2 (~Ray@adsl-68-95-248-153.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 23:02:01 Hey Ray 23:03:00 Hidy Ho Robert :) 23:03:08 How's your holidays going? 23:03:31 Fine, fine... Today I'm planning to go and see if I can finally get the books I want from the library 23:03:42 First they lost their copy, then they closed before I got there... 23:04:01 Oh, well, this makes me leave my room so it's good for me ;) 23:04:06 hehe, yes. 23:05:21 outside air. what a concept. :) 23:06:32 Cloudy, lots of snow, and sunrise... it's nice outside 23:06:37 Only a little below 0 23:07:42 Your in Sweden? No? 23:07:51 I am 23:07:59 aware 23:09:16 Look, another viking with a polar bear at his feet. 23:09:49 lol 23:10:17 With Wagnerian Viking hat? 23:10:40 --- quit: wandelf ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 23:11:02 What else? 23:11:40 I love the sterio-typical world. :) 23:12:32 Hrm, this Ackermann function requires a lot of computing power. 23:12:54 : ack ( m n -- x ) swap for ?dup if r@ 1+ swap 1- recurse else 1 then nxt 1+ ; <-- isForth implementation. 23:19:10 guys, anyone here know much about OpenFirmware, or OF and where it was created, conceived? 23:21:05 hi SeaForth: I found this -- hope it helps :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Firmware 23:21:24 thank you! 23:21:46 * Robert was just reading the wikipedia. :) 23:22:03 (guess where I got the above implmentation from) 23:22:26 wikipedia? 23:22:52 I'm always in there too, hehe. Sometimes I put "Random Page" in a google feeling lucky search and It comes up in the wikipedia. 23:23:41 SeaForth: once you enter the wikipedia, you may never leave. :) 23:23:58 Yeah, a lot of good people got stuck in there 23:24:50 sheeze, it is cool! 23:25:02 I have never seen or used it, now I'm hooked in less than 2 mins or clicking and reading. 23:25:08 thanks, I'll see ya in a few years. 23:25:19 hahaha 23:25:48 :D 23:26:00 I loose new potential friends that way all the time. :D 23:26:02 yah, google is kinda like shooting from the hip. 23:27:00 is wikipedia a community kinda thing, with a nice commercial feel to it? 23:27:11 Commercial? Wikipedia? 23:27:16 Oh no, it's pure communism. 23:27:28 :) lol 23:27:44 surely you jest and mean socialist efforts with a red bent? 23:27:53 hue :) 23:29:51 oh my god, I just searched in wp for forth, I'm definitely lost in space. 23:30:25 Hehehe 23:31:49 The best part is contibuting to the whole of human knowledge. 23:32:12 Yeah. 23:32:19 A big database of "Everything" 23:32:33 Very cool concept, especially that it's free and available for everyone 23:32:50 I swear, commercialisation of wikipedia would cause a world revolution ;) 23:35:48 I'm finding more links to cool forth information, and I have been scouring the web for years on the subject. 23:36:17 very neat, wonder why I come along at a time like this and 'discover' something so late in the game. Man, I'm definitely not hip any more. 23:38:13 I havn't been hip since hip was hep. 23:40:15 sadly hep doesn't show up in wikipedia, apparently it doesn't consider itself hep 23:41:42 Good complement to wikipedia - dict 23:41:59 I even use it as a Swedish dictionary. 23:42:28 Which means I...englify a Swedish word and dict it. 23:42:56 From The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing (27 SEP 03) [foldoc]: 23:42:56 HEP 23:42:56 23:42:56 High Energy (Particle) Physics. 23:43:00 Hehehe 23:43:11 It always has a number of definitions- 23:44:31 you know what Robert: I search for most everything with the FOLDOC tool bar and when foldoc doesn't have it in it's dictionary I just take the OneLook link and there you are. instant everything from the convenience of FOLDOC -- cool huh? 23:45:13 Sorry, but..what ois FOLDOC? 23:46:01 Free On-Line Dictionary Of Computing. 23:46:10 Oh, heh 23:46:33 I should read what I paste. :) 23:46:47 anyone here done OpenFirmware Forthin' on a Mac? 23:47:30 foldoc has a cool link for your browser that takes the highlighted word in text and searches foldoc for it. 23:48:02 If foldoc doesn't have the word then you get the option of looking in OneLook. 23:48:33 OneLook returns 80 bazillian searchable referances. 23:49:06 I just use the dict console tool. Very easy to use 23:49:49 sounds painful :) 23:50:12 Not at all. "dict foo" isn't that hard to type 23:50:20 Good for lazy people 23:50:40 I guess clicking on a word in a browser is even better 23:51:02 sorry -- toilet humor, not intentional :) 23:51:13 yes, intentional. 23:51:38 Hmm... I didn't get it, I'm afraid 23:51:46 So I'm not offended at all ;= 23:51:55 thank goodness :) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.12.28