00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.12.24
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05:07:11 <zoly> g'day
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05:50:07 <robert> Hi
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06:08:37 <zoly> hi rob
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06:09:12 <robert> Hi zoly, and hi Teratogen 
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08:13:47 <bbls> hello
08:13:57 <robert> Hi
08:14:04 <bbls> hi robert
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10:05:02 <robert> Hi
10:05:27 <TheBlueWizard> hiya robert
10:05:45 <saon> hey all
10:05:58 <TheBlueWizard> hiya saon
10:08:26 <robert> :)
10:09:19 <madgarden> Hello
10:11:53 <TheBlueWizard> hiya madgarden
10:12:40 * madgarden dodges TheBlueWizard's feeble attack and responds with his own!
10:12:44 <madgarden> hiiiiiyaa!!!
10:16:09 <madgarden> I wish you all a Forthy Christmas.
10:16:17 <madgarden> (or equivalent religious holiday)
10:17:12 <robert> Thank you
10:17:33 <robert> I think I'll attempt to construct a copper oxide diode.
10:18:48 <madgarden> That will make an exquisite ornament for your tree!
10:19:24 <TheBlueWizard> hehe
10:19:50 <robert> I actually soldered 20 blue LEDs to a wire yesterday.
10:19:57 <robert> My gift...to myself!
10:20:05 <robert> They light up my entire room :)
10:20:24 <TheBlueWizard> must be poretty to look at
10:20:29 <TheBlueWizard> pretty*
10:21:51 <madgarden> Haha. Yes, the dawn of the age of cheap illumination is upon us.
10:24:32 <TheBlueWizard> yaa!  next: wall-sized LED!  Or ceiling-sized LED!  then no more "dark spots" in the room!
10:26:23 <robert> It looks really nice
10:26:54 <madgarden> Ooh... I just had a vision of a room completely walled (and floored/ceiling-ed) with a huge, glowing display... containing Forth code, of course!
10:27:23 <robert> That's your kind of garden.
10:27:35 <TheBlueWizard> hey, that's just a step away from...quasi-holographic room!
10:28:50 <madgarden> 3D Colorforth
10:28:58 * TheBlueWizard would LOVE to have a holographic room...then he can "direct" all codes, math, words, thought-flow, etc. using his hands, much like a maestro leads an orchestra
10:29:54 <robert> Heh.
10:30:10 <TheBlueWizard> with this setup, I believe my productivity will go up by perhaps 10,000 factor...
10:30:22 <TheBlueWizard> er, fold
10:30:42 <madgarden> 3D stack manipulations.
10:30:56 <madgarden> It would be all crazy Rubic's Cube mode.
10:33:36 <TheBlueWizard> lol...yup...nut it will definitely appeal to the puzzle loving spirit in us geeks
11:03:14 <bbls> hmm, how do i code something in colorforth?
11:03:37 <bbls> it seems so alien :)
11:14:34 <madgarden> Yea, it's weird to me too.
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11:49:03 <robert> Hi again
11:49:05 <robert> Sauron.
11:49:35 <TheBlueWizard> hehe
11:49:59 * robert continues with his experiments
11:50:37 <Topaz> hmm, i'm soooo slow at dvorak
11:51:50 <robert> I gave up about an hour after trying it.
11:52:10 <robert> That's about the same time as I gave up the hope of ever becoming an acceptable typist
11:52:15 <Topaz> i know where all the letters are...
11:53:07 <Topaz> since i'm actually typing currently on a qwerty, just xmodmapping it
11:53:28 <bbls> are you guys using colorforth?
11:53:38 <Topaz> but i don't have the muscle memory
11:55:54 <robert> bbls: No.
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12:03:50 <robert> Hey
12:03:56 <crc> Hi robert
12:03:58 <robert> My diode is working :))
12:04:05 <crc> did you make it yourself?
12:04:07 <robert> Yeah
12:04:52 <crc> cool
12:05:28 * crc works on retroforth 7.6 (release version), 8.0 (experimental version), and will soon start work on a 64-bit version of RetroForth
12:06:40 <robert> For which CPU?
12:07:01 <Topaz> robert: you made a diode?
12:07:02 <crc> amd64
12:09:27 <robert> Topaz: Yeah.. at least I think so ;)
12:09:45 <Topaz> heh cool
12:10:10 <Topaz> oxide junction or something?
12:12:41 <robert> Yeah
12:12:55 <robert> It's about as reliable as Windows, though
12:13:03 <Topaz> haha
12:13:56 <TheBlueWizard> ha ha...never thought one would compare a simple gizmo to a mind numbing complicated thing called Windows
12:14:28 <saon> lol
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12:31:21 <crc> hi bbls
12:31:43 <saon> hey
12:31:53 <crc> hey?
12:32:06 <bbls> hello
12:32:09 <bbls> hi saon
12:32:11 <bbls> hi crc
12:32:20 <saon> hey crc
12:32:28 <crc> how's the "provable language" work going?
12:32:44 <crc> what are you up to saon?
12:32:55 * crc is tired & getting sick :(
12:32:57 <saon> hrmm, not much
12:33:07 <bbls> crc i make small but firm advances :)
12:33:27 <crc> good
12:33:45 * crc would like to see a semi-useful program written in it when it's done
12:33:53 <bbls> :)
12:35:33 <bbls> i'm still looking for the optimal language for this kind of job
12:35:52 <bbls> a forth derivative seems the most probable
12:36:21 <bbls> but i'm not sure what should be the primitives
12:36:26 <crc> I'm still tying to figure out why you need to prove correctness
12:36:46 <crc> (especially since that requires programs not to access memory)
12:36:53 <bbls> crc so that the apps could run without being afraid of getting errors due to bugs
12:37:05 <crc> hmm
12:37:15 <bbls> crc there might be a possibility to allow programs to access memory
12:37:26 <crc> is the program recompiled each time a new set of data is presented?
12:37:27 <bbls> as long an there are pointers but not pointer arithmetic
12:37:35 <bbls> no
12:37:45 <bbls> the compiler compiles the program as usual
12:37:56 <bbls> just that before compilation takes place there is a layer checking for validity
12:38:22 <crc> what's to prevent future input from causing problems?
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12:39:00 <bbls> a program is considered valid in this context if it's able to accept any input without crashing and does not loop infinitelly
12:39:36 <crc> hmm
12:39:51 <crc> then your primitives will need a lot of checks built in
12:39:57 <bbls> yes
12:40:00 <bbls> for example
12:40:01 <bbls> division
12:40:11 <bbls> it has several assertions
12:40:12 <bbls> such
12:40:28 <bbls> there are at least 2 items in the stack
12:40:39 <bbls> both of them are integer (supposing integer division)
12:40:47 <bbls> the first one (the divisor) is not 0
12:41:04 <bbls> each primitive has a list of assertions associated with valid behaviour
12:41:23 <bbls> the compiler has to prove that no assertion in the program could ever fail
12:42:43 <crc> hmm
12:43:18 <bbls> the programmer can add his own assertions
12:43:21 <crc> I often use potentially infinite loops; your compiler wouldn't allow that I suppose?
12:43:28 <bbls> thus he can define the specification of the program
12:43:40 <bbls> and the compiler will also prove that the program meets the specification
12:43:44 <bbls> crc no
12:43:56 <crc> :-(
12:44:12 <bbls> that's the only thing i definitivelly know that it's not going to be supported
12:44:24 <bbls> but any infinite loop can be emulated
12:44:27 <crc> RetroForth 8 is built around an essentially infinite loop
12:44:29 <crc> how so?
12:44:42 <bbls> for i:=0 to 10000000000000000000 do :)
12:44:56 <crc> that would eventually exit though
12:45:07 <bbls> yes, that's true
12:45:12 <crc> Then what?
12:45:17 <crc> recursion?
12:45:19 <bbls> no
12:45:20 <crc> (probably not)
12:45:29 <bbls> recursion is being reduced to loops
12:45:48 <bbls> really, there is no solution other than a very large loop
12:45:53 <crc> I frequently do loops like:
12:46:08 <crc> : foo ... exit @ 0; drop foo ;
12:46:29 <crc> (where exit is a variable, @ gets the value, and 0; exits the loop if exit = 0)
12:46:43 <crc> And other functions exist which could alter the state
12:47:01 <bbls> is this a loop or recursive definition?
12:47:05 <crc> a loop
12:47:37 <crc> it's the same as:  : foo repeat ... exit @ 0; drop again ;
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12:47:46 <crc> (repeat/again form an infinite loop)
12:48:13 <bbls> i can allow only finite loops
12:48:34 <crc> :-(
12:48:48 <bbls> althrought there might be a language construct for infinite loops if it's being treated specially
12:49:04 <bbls> so that the compiler would not try to prove that a certain loop is finite anymore
12:49:19 <bbls> but i really see no reason
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12:49:27 <bbls> why would someone do an infinite loop
12:49:34 <bbls> you are sure that there is NO way to break the code
12:49:38 <bbls> the loop
12:49:45 <bbls> in your code?
12:49:51 <Herkamire> sure, it's called EXIT, or dropping the rstack
12:50:02 <bbls> then your loop is not infinite anymore
12:50:13 <crc> it's *potentially* infinite in this case
12:50:15 <bbls> it's just looping until a condition has to be meet
12:50:28 <crc> I have a word in 8.0:
12:50:51 <crc> : red clear vtob v interpret red ;
12:51:02 <bbls> crc as long as there always remains at least one path to exit, then it's not infinite loop
12:51:19 <crc> In one port of RetroForth, that loop will never exit.
12:51:27 <crc> (unless you turn off the system)
12:51:54 <bbls> i suppose that there are not too many programs that expect you to turn off the system in order to stop them
12:52:02 <bbls> and if so then it's a badly written program
12:52:17 <crc> How so?
12:52:38 <bbls> no program should run indefinitivelly without the possibility to break the loop somehow
12:52:38 <crc> that word isn't intended to exit until the environment is shut down or crashed.
12:52:43 <bbls> it really makes no sense
12:52:59 <Herkamire> many many applications never return from their main event loop, they just exit()
12:53:16 <bbls> Herkamire yes, but that's not an infinite loop
12:53:29 <bbls> Herkamire <bbls> crc as long as there always remains at least one path to exit, then it's not infinite loop
12:54:10 <bbls> since it can always be converted into a program that does not use exit()
12:54:15 <Herkamire> define infinite loop
12:54:20 <crc> : foo foo ;
12:54:24 <Herkamire> controll never goes outside that loop again
12:54:25 <crc> that's an infinite loop
12:54:37 <bbls> Herkamire imagine this:
12:54:41 <bbls> repeat
12:54:56 <bbls>     goto shutdown;
12:55:00 <bbls> until false;
12:55:04 <bbls> shutdown:
12:55:10 <Herkamire> yeah, I suppose you're right
12:55:13 <bbls>     call system_shutdown
12:55:34 <bbls> so if you have an exit() and you always have at least one logical path to that exist
12:55:38 <bbls> the loop is not infinite
12:55:44 <bbls> if you have
12:55:48 <bbls> repeat
12:55:55 <bbls>    do something withhout exit
12:55:59 <bbls> until false
12:56:03 <crc> In my case though, I have programs written programs that don't get terminated until I restart the computer
12:56:05 <bbls> then this is an infinite loop
12:56:20 <crc> (Used to continually monitor ports for instance)
12:56:30 <bbls> crc i don't really find any particular problem that cannot be implemented without that
12:56:33 <crc> How would you do that without an infinite loop
12:56:53 <bbls> you shouldn't think in terms of implementation
12:56:57 <bbls> think in terms of the problem
12:57:19 <bbls> is there any problem that requires that there is no way to break the loop and then manually shutdown?
12:57:39 <crc> Continual monitoring of system temperature for instance
12:57:45 <bbls> (for example there might be a shutdown button that's not connected to power but to logic, and the program takes the decision whenever it wants to stop the power)
12:57:53 <crc> (it would alert me if the CPU got to hot)
12:58:00 <crc> but not halt the system
12:58:06 <bbls> crc: you still can included a case like: if hotkey then exit;
12:58:17 <crc> Not really
12:58:18 <bbls> crc and yet will monitor your CPU temperature constantly
12:58:47 <crc> What if all keys were in use for other things?
12:59:06 <bbls> again, think in terms of problem, not implementation
12:59:31 <crc> bbls, if you needed a constantly updated log of CPU temp, how would you do it?
12:59:52 <crc> I solved the problem with a simple loop that read in the data, and saved it to a block on the hard drive
13:00:02 <bbls> you don't really have to press the key if you don't want to
13:00:15 <crc> bbls; that's implementation
13:01:00 <bbls> the system could have an imaginary key that would do that
13:01:14 <crc> you're still talking implementation
13:01:17 <bbls> so really, i see no reason why having this hotkey would prevent you
13:01:18 <bbls> yes
13:01:20 <crc> exiting the loop isn't part of the problem
13:01:27 <bbls> but i told you to think
13:01:32 <crc> I am
13:01:34 <bbls> about the problem
13:01:37 <crc> I am
13:01:47 <bbls> and then think and see that my implementation solves the same problem
13:01:51 <crc> So?
13:01:53 <bbls> so therefore is as valid as yours
13:01:57 <bbls> just that it adds one more thing
13:01:57 <crc> So does mine
13:02:02 <bbls> can be verified
13:02:40 <crc> what if there's no need to ever exit the loop?
13:02:56 <crc> Why have the overhead of checking for a special keypress in it?
13:03:05 <bbls> because of the benefits :)
13:03:12 <bbls> all you need is:
13:03:15 <bbls> repeat
13:03:21 <bbls>    if keypress then exit
13:03:25 <crc> repeat get-temperature record again
13:03:26 <bbls>     do your job
13:03:28 <crc> that's all I need
13:03:28 <bbls> until condition
13:04:19 <crc> I don't need to check the keypress though
13:04:31 <bbls> crc i might secretly insert the if-keypress-exit in the "repeat" word :)
13:04:38 <bbls> and then define an imaginary key
13:04:41 <crc> If I needed to exit this loop; I'd have put code in there for that
13:04:42 <bbls> that cannot be pressed
13:04:51 <crc> bbls, then it's still an infinite loop!
13:05:03 <bbls> not from the compiler point of view
13:05:14 <bbls> since it wouldn't know that the key code is imaginary
13:05:16 <bbls> :)
13:05:25 <bbls> it's a hack
13:05:27 <crc> that's *cheating*
13:05:31 <bbls> :)
13:05:35 <bbls> but it solves the problem
13:05:40 <crc> If you want a provable language, don't cheat behind the scenes!
13:05:40 <bbls> without inducing any other problems
13:05:43 <bbls> so it's acceptable
13:05:46 <crc> Not to me
13:06:11 <crc> proving correctness by a false premise makes the correctness a lie
13:06:13 <bbls> well you cheat too when you say that there are programs that really should be implemented without the if-keypressed-part
13:06:20 <crc> how so?
13:06:21 <bbls> i mean *with
13:06:37 <crc> Some loops should be exitable
13:06:43 <bbls> because it's very clear that you could add that keypress there
13:06:45 <Herkamire> bbls: many loops exit when a flag on the stack is true/false
13:07:01 <Herkamire> bbls: are you planning on doing logic about whether that value will ever be false?
13:07:02 <bbls> Herkamire that's the same thing, exit on condition, it's not infinite
13:07:03 <crc> bbls, just because I *can* doesn't mean I *need to*
13:07:16 <crc> (or even *should*)
13:07:22 <bbls> crc, this discussion goes to nowhere :)
13:07:23 <Herkamire> but if the condition never happens, it is infinite
13:07:44 <bbls> Herkamire yes, but as long as there is at leasy one possibility to happen, the it's not really infinite
13:08:10 <bbls> it's rather "undetermined"
13:08:17 <bbls> but so it's
13:08:20 <bbls> read number from console
13:08:26 <bbls> for i:=1 to number do
13:08:27 <bbls> ...
13:08:33 <bbls> this is undetermined too
13:08:36 <bbls> but not infinite
13:08:41 <bbls> since it's constant for a given input
13:08:54 <bbls> the same above
13:09:06 <bbls> it's undetermined for all possible inputs
13:09:11 <Herkamire> no for loop is infinite
13:09:14 <bbls> but is constant for any particular input
13:09:24 <Herkamire> not with fixed precision integer math
13:09:47 <bbls> well, you guys might be right
13:10:16 <bbls> but i don't think that in the end would anyone be hurt by that so seriously
13:12:40 <bbls> anyway this talk really helped me
13:12:44 <crc> good
13:12:47 <crc> :-)
13:13:11 <bbls> :)
13:13:20 <bbls> it made my mind clearer :)
13:14:18 <crc> :-)
13:14:27 * crc returns to work on RetroForth 8.0
13:14:50 <bbls> i become more and more convinced that it's possible to write this compiler :)
13:16:47 <crc> :-)
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13:43:52 * crc loves blocks
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16:37:18 <TheBlueWizard> Merry Christmas to all...gotta go!
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18:00:04 --- nick: seaforth -> SeaForth
18:00:29 <SeaForth> well, just finished my first FORTH prototype written in, of all things, SenseTalk :)
18:01:16 <SeaForth> goal, by new year day to have the core written in SenseTalk, and the rest (compiler and interpreter) written in FORTH running on the primatives done in SenseTalk
18:02:33 <Herkamire> never heard of sensetalk
18:04:06 <Herkamire> SeaForth: cool stuff. I hope you meet that goal
18:07:30 <SeaForth> sensetalk is a language system I helped design and write, it is embedded commercially in a automated testing system for OSX that runs via VNC on many other systems for GUI testing.  The language was originally in a program called HyperCube, which became HyperSense all written for NeXTstep in the 1989-90 thru 1997'ish.
18:07:46 <SeaForth> www.sensetalk.com, and also www.redstonesoftware.com, and finally www.thoughtful.com
18:08:12 <SeaForth> anyway, the code is ugly, but works as a basic proof of concept.
18:08:18 <SeaForth> total time, about 10 hours.
18:11:33 <Herkamire> what's 10 hours? making your forth prototype?
18:15:04 <SeaForth> yep
18:15:06 <SeaForth> http://rafb.net/paste/results/iPtAF393.html
18:15:17 <SeaForth> there is the code, it isn't pretty, the finished system will be much cleaner.
18:16:22 * SeaForth runs and hides as surely the arrows of discust will come flying his way.
18:16:42 <crc> Actually it's not too hard to follow...
18:20:29 <SeaForth> well, that could be a good or bad thing, depending on purity of forther views :)
18:20:59 * crc isn't a traditional forther :)
18:21:22 <crc> I'm quite interested in code clarity
18:21:24 <SeaForth> http://rafb.net/paste/results/YOFNIi92.html
18:21:29 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc
18:21:37 <SeaForth> and the bootup, 3 4 + s  testing
18:22:41 <SeaForth> I'll map traditional names to words later, right now I have SenseTalk name space and function naming limitations to contend with, thus 'add' is not '+' and so forth.
18:22:55 <crc> that's not a problem
18:23:04 <SeaForth> I'll get dictionaries done here in a bit, and have no problem doing any char/naming scheme in forth code.
18:23:18 <crc> In RetroForth/Native, before I had a shifted keymap I did that myself :)
18:23:27 <crc> 1 2 add dot
18:23:27 <crc> 3
18:23:51 <SeaForth> :)  yah, I should do dot, I'll do that now.
18:24:04 * SeaForth launches vi and writes a simple handler to do it in about 1 min
18:24:05 <Herkamire> SeaForth: what's s?
18:25:43 <OrngeTide> wooot. the asian supermarket sold me whole cooked crabs for $1 each. 
18:26:16 <OrngeTide> and i have cranberry vodka i made. this is turning out to be a good xmas eve dinner.
18:26:22 <SeaForth>  ok
18:26:22 <SeaForth> 3 4 add dot
18:26:22 <SeaForth> 7 ok
18:26:26 <SeaForth> ok, done.
18:26:31 <SeaForth> oh, 's' is output of stack, or .s
18:26:31 <crc> :)
18:26:37 <SeaForth> again, I should name it dot-s or something
18:26:58 <SeaForth> SeaForth is about 20 times faster than BashForth :)
18:27:18 <OrngeTide> i just realized. joy doesn't have , or create. I wonder how it creates defining words
18:27:37 <OrngeTide> i haven't tried bashforth, but I would imagine it would be slow.
18:27:43 <crc> bashforth is slow.
18:27:48 <SeaForth> yep, it is pretty slow, but cool to read.
18:27:59 <OrngeTide> crc, that's a good thing though. it makes it feel like it's doing something
18:28:01 <SeaForth> I have it on my system, and do use it as a reference for my work.
18:28:11 <SeaForth> Not necessarily in design, but output verification.
18:28:46 <OrngeTide> ah
18:28:46 <SeaForth> BTW, I'm usually on here as SDO, I guess now that I'm actually working on a forth, I'll become SeaForth here.
18:29:01 <OrngeTide> i use gforth for verfication. i don't like gforth's design, but it's preinstalled on my mac
18:29:29 <crc> I seldom start gforth anymore
18:29:45 * SeaForth uses OSX, and sees no gforth
18:30:05 * SeaForth has ported 13+ forths to BeOS, and likes gforth, pfe, and others.
18:30:14 <crc> I ported RetroForth to BeOS
18:30:18 * SeaForth is now a OSX buddy
18:30:24 * crc wonders if it still works...
18:30:29 <crc> I haven't booted BeOS in ages
18:30:40 <OrngeTide> SeaForth, hrm. i wonder why it's on my mac. maybe i installed it and forgot.
18:30:49 * OrngeTide goes to eat his crab. ttyl
18:31:10 * SeaForth gave up on BeOS about 3-4 months ago, has sold most of his non-boxen PPC systems, and is getting rid of his quad beos, and two original beboxens
18:31:39 <crc> I'll consider returning to BeOS when Haiku R1 is finished
18:32:55 <SeaForth> I don't thinnk Haiku R1 will matter, and besides it is OBOS, which is just reimplementation of R5.1 and R6 stuff.
18:33:31 <SeaForth> As a long time user of BeOS (since late 1995), I have said my peace and goodbyes to a long dead OS, it was hard, but the alternatives until this year were simply not enticing enoug.
18:33:35 <SeaForth> enough.
18:36:19 <crc> :)
18:42:38 <Herkamire> SeaForth: what do you mean "non-boxen"?
18:44:40 <SeaForth> I have 2 beboxen, and I also have a quad Dell 6100 PentiumPro that all run beos.
18:45:02 <SeaForth> non-boxen are beos duals that are not made by be inc.
18:45:22 <SeaForth> I had a dual PPC system 7300 with daystar dual 604e card, but that one is sold.
18:46:37 <SeaForth> OrngeTide, are you aware of any forth that runs on OSX that has bridges to the OSX libs?
18:56:46 <Herkamire> SeaForth: I think mops does
19:10:05 <crc> goodnight
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19:19:18 <Herkamire> gnight
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20:02:04 --- quit: robert ("Night")
20:39:41 <SeaForth> is there the TIL book online or something that summarizes a well formed and implementation of FORTH.
20:40:23 <SeaForth> other than code, I want an overview of how most systems are formed.  I am thinking of a page system later, for now I'm going to read in standard input streams or interactive on the CLI
20:46:31 <Herkamire> SeaForth: did you hear when I said that I think MOPS is a forth that supports OSX libs?
20:46:39 <Herkamire> what's TIL?
20:47:38 <SeaForth> TIL, threaded interpreted languages
20:48:06 <SeaForth> I have the book, unfortunately it is about 700 miles away from me right now :(
20:48:27 * SeaForth has been meaning to break copyright law and scan/post the thing online for myself.
21:10:30 <SeaForth> Herk, thanks for the tip on MOPS, checking it out right now.
21:22:08 <SeaForth> happy channukah!
21:30:44 <OrngeTide> happy solstice!
21:30:54 <OrngeTide> although that was like 3 days ago:P
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23:49:52 <SeaForth> Just downloaded the carbonized MOPS stuff.
23:49:57 <SeaForth> Pretty good for freeware.
23:50:16 <SeaForth> OrangeTide, yah, happy winter solstice.
23:50:49 <SeaForth> I miss being out in the SW/USA and in the mineral baths on the 21st of Dec, early winter, cold but not too cold, and the animals at midnight come down to the hot water and look around, and then leave.
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.12.24