00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.12.18
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07:29:00 <zoly> g'day
07:30:20 <saon> hello
07:42:39 <zoly> for the lovers of the perverse, there is now OOPS for bashforth
07:43:24 <zoly> http://www.forthfreak.net/wiki/index.cgi?BashForth  (last link, after the screen shot)
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08:29:57 <holden> Wow
08:30:02 <holden> bashforth is incredible
08:30:45 <holden> It manages to take nearly a second on an 800Mhz G4 to execute "1 2 + ."
08:31:21 <zoly> speed is indeed very platform dependant
08:31:32 <zoly> cpu clock is not so much a factor
08:31:52 <zoly> probably compiler quality for target platform is one
08:32:16 <zoly> for example, speed diff between x86 and arm versions here is enormous
08:32:29 <holden> And the fact that Bash isn't exactly the fastest language in the world ;)
08:32:46 <zoly> and indeed, the PPC based machines didn't perform so well yet
08:33:32 <zoly> right. you wouldn't want to use bashforth for, say, real time video encoding :)
08:34:18 <holden> ID aren't using it to implement Doom 4 then?
08:34:35 <zoly> "Bash isn't exactly the fastest language", ok, but that's not a platform specific issue
08:35:38 <zoly> i was considering to add a compiler for ELF standalone code generation to bashforth
08:36:01 <holden> Why?
08:36:10 <zoly> for the laugh
08:36:22 <holden> :)
08:36:57 <zoly> this one, actually:   http://www.forthfreak.net/wiki/index.cgi?NativeCodeCompiler
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11:14:17 <crc> hi Herkamire
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11:23:42 <crc> RetroForth/Native 7.x works quite well under Bochs now :)
11:24:22 * crc yawns. I should take a Saturday off work once in a while.
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11:50:20 <Herkamire> hi crc :)
11:50:30 <Herkamire> very cool. does it come with a config file for bochs?
11:53:43 <Herkamire> nice :)
11:55:26 <crc> yes
11:55:34 * crc is going to get a pizza; bbs
12:10:28 <crc> back
12:14:38 <Herkamire> crc: what version of bochs do you use? any special requirements?
12:15:50 <crc> I'm using Bochs 2.1.1, for Linux, with the "X" display option
12:16:12 <Herkamire> does it have to have a serial port?
12:16:17 <crc> No
12:16:33 <Herkamire> ok. at first it was paniking or something about the serial port
12:16:37 <crc> The code is compiled into the image, but not used if you don't call the words
12:16:52 <Herkamire> ok cool. I'll try turning serial off in the config
12:16:54 <crc> Try changing the "com1:" to /dev/ttyS0 or something if you want serial port support
12:18:14 <crc> In 7.6-beta2 (which I'm working on), I'll be adding in my block editor, and the latest bochsrc.txt that I'm using here
12:18:54 <Herkamire> I don't have a serial port
12:19:04 <crc> ok
12:19:09 <crc> just disable it then :)
12:19:12 <Herkamire> I tried mapping it to a pty
12:19:19 <Herkamire> then it got further and crashed
12:19:30 <crc> :)
12:19:57 <crc> It *might* also work with qemu
12:20:03 <crc> I haven't tried it though
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16:51:38 <robert> Hi
16:51:42 <snowrichard> hello
16:51:53 <snowrichard> I am at my mom's on her XP machine
16:52:17 <robert> Cool
16:52:37 * robert is spending his christmas vacation in front of his computer
16:53:01 <snowrichard> I am on a permanent vacation
16:53:34 <robert> A lot of time for computing then :)
16:53:47 <snowrichard> I went to that web site and looked at that ARM system.
16:53:56 <robert> Haven't done that yet
16:54:01 <robert> Does it look any good?
16:54:03 <snowrichard> its tiny
16:54:24 <snowrichard> in size
16:54:25 <robert> I was looking at the Altair article on wikipedia
16:54:59 <snowrichard> one of my uncles is a TI engineer.  his name is on the patent for thier first calculator.  he has an Altair that the built in his living room
16:55:14 <snowrichard> he built
16:55:57 <snowrichard> Jerry Merryman (well he is my dad's uncle)
16:56:47 <robert> Very neat
16:57:06 <robert> I have old memories of my dad's old calculator...really early model
16:57:26 <robert> Was still using it until a few years ago
16:57:40 <robert> When will people learn that old computers aren't useless? :)
16:57:43 <snowrichard> I used a slide rule in high school.  scientific calcs weren't around yet
16:58:43 <snowrichard> or PC's for that matter
16:59:08 <snowrichard> my first computer was a KIM-1
16:59:43 <robert> Never heard of it..when was it made?
16:59:53 <snowrichard> 1976
17:00:07 <snowrichard> a single board trainer basically
17:00:23 <snowrichard> we added 8K of ram that cost us about 300
17:00:58 <snowrichard> yes that was a K
17:01:05 <robert> 8K is a lot
17:01:22 <snowrichard> 8192 bytes
17:01:29 <robert> Right
17:01:46 <robert> Thousands of instructions, and still some room for data
17:02:01 <snowrichard> we fit our assembler/editor in there
17:02:15 <snowrichard> the final version was 2.2K
17:02:22 <robert> Not bad
17:02:32 <robert> Did it have any video output?
17:02:49 <snowrichard> we had a glass tty, but I preferred the paper one :) 
17:03:13 <snowrichard> no video on board just serial output
17:03:28 <snowrichard> for a teletype
17:03:59 <robert> I got an old dot matrix printer I was thinking about using for something like that
17:04:17 <robert> Should try to get some PS/2 connectors so that I can connect a keyboard, too.
17:04:46 <snowrichard> you can get the schematics for that system I used on the internet.  there are people that have build thier own.  Why I don't know ;}
17:05:47 <robert> Which CPU did you use?
17:05:55 <snowrichard> is was a 6502
17:05:55 <robert> I'd prefer to use something I already have.
17:05:58 <robert> OK
17:06:07 <robert> Got some z80s and various microcontrollers
17:06:53 <snowrichard> there was a book once called "threaded interpreted languages" by Byte Books where they designed a Z80 Forth
17:07:47 <snowrichard> need to go check on my son
17:07:54 <snowrichard> be back in a bit
17:07:54 <robert> OK, see you
17:13:18 <snowrichard> I'm back
17:13:29 <robert> Hi again
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17:40:26 <robert> Hallo
17:40:51 <Telebyte> hi
17:41:49 <Telebyte> just reading Brodie's Starting Forth
17:42:24 <Telebyte> can you recommend a free system so I can follow the examples?
17:42:31 <Telebyte> Linux/x86
17:49:30 <robert> Hmm...
17:49:35 <robert> Which standard does it follow?
17:49:59 <robert> I'm using isForth for Linux on x86, but it's not exactly the same Forth variant.
17:50:09 <robert> There's also gforth.
17:50:34 <Telebyte> the author mentions ansi, but the book is from 1981
17:50:49 <robert> Hehe
17:51:01 <Telebyte> it is just for basic examples anyway - I'm a total noob
17:51:05 <robert> If I were you, I'd go for some Forth and just learn the differences.
17:51:14 <robert> I think most basic things will work in isForth.
17:51:18 <robert> isforth.clss.net
17:51:25 <robert> And gforth, hrm...google.
17:51:37 <Telebyte> ok, thanks
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18:02:44 <robert> Hi Sonarman 
18:11:27 <Sonarman> hi robert
18:19:38 * robert does the forth dance
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19:04:27 <robert> Hi
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19:31:39 <arke> hrm.
19:31:43 <arke> you know what I just thought of
19:32:02 <arke> you can implement a complete record system in Forth in maybe half a block
19:32:28 <robert> Record system?
19:32:37 <arke> yeah
19:32:37 <robert> Like...a database?
19:32:40 <arke> like C structures
19:32:45 <arke> like C structures
19:32:48 <arke> :)
19:32:48 <robert> Oh
19:32:54 <arke> and unions too, simply layered on top.
19:33:02 <arke> sooo simple
19:33:03 <arke> man
19:33:04 <robert> Yes.. I'll see what implementation I use in tforth
19:33:22 <arke> the way gforth does it is so complex compared to this.
19:33:22 <robert> 4 lines
19:33:37 <arke> robert: lets see is
19:33:42 <robert> : struct:  create 0 ,  here 2-  0  does> @ create allot ;
19:33:42 <robert> : bitem  over + swap  create ,  does> @ + ;
19:33:42 <robert> : witem  2* bitem ;
19:33:42 <robert> : ;struct  swap ! ;
19:34:54 <arke> yeah
19:35:01 <arke> thats exactly how I imagined it :)
19:35:14 <arke> except that you can add more data types and transparent unions etc.
19:35:16 <robert> I think I stole that from isForth
19:35:22 <robert> Don't remember who Mark stole it from
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19:39:33 <robert> Hi
19:40:12 <arke> : STRUC  CREATE HERE 0 , 0 DOES> @   ;
19:40:13 <tathi> hi rob
19:40:22 <arke> hi tathi :)
19:40:33 <arke> : WORDITEM  CREATE DUP , 2   DOES> @   ;
19:40:39 <tathi> hey arke
19:40:40 <arke> : BYTEITEM  CREATE DUP , 1   DOES> C@   ;
19:40:44 <arke> : ENDSTRUC  SWAP ! ;
19:40:45 <tathi> doing structures in forth?
19:40:58 <arke> tathi: just an idea.
19:41:20 <arke> in fact, I came up with it and its the same way many other people seem to do it.
19:41:25 <arke> unions should be simple too :)
19:41:39 <tathi> yeah
19:41:57 <robert> Good if you want named structures on a machine with 4kB in RAM.
19:42:40 <arke> i dont like the idea of named structures like that. 
19:42:47 <arke> If I'm gonna do something like it, I'll just do
19:42:56 <arke> : offset create , does> @   ;
19:43:37 <arke> and theres a plus sign between @ and ;
19:44:30 <robert> Real forthers have a good memory and know how to use +
20:02:58 <Sonarman> real forthers know the address of their data
20:03:16 <robert> Exactly.
20:03:48 <Sonarman> real forthers don't even fetch from that address, they just assume the most likely value
20:04:14 <robert> One step too far, remembering the address is realistic
20:04:32 <Sonarman> PEEK 43827
20:05:44 <robert> Hrm.
20:06:01 <robert> I should resume that stupid Forth project.
20:06:13 <robert> 512b limit.
20:06:51 <robert> Perhaps I could accept 1kB... perhaps.
20:07:36 <robert> <3?
20:07:38 <Sonarman> people in Bangledesh don't have ANY bytes, and you're going to waste yours?!?
20:07:49 <Sonarman> Bangladesh
20:07:51 <robert> Of course not.
20:08:32 <robert> f0rtH r3v0lutionary f0rc3s
20:09:06 <robert> Armed with forty forth flags, and a pig.
20:09:57 <robert> Forth traditionalism can be seen as a memory exercise.
20:10:08 <robert> "Oh, you'll learn to remember the block numbers"
20:13:54 <robert> Time to try to sleep a little, I guess. Night
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