00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.12.10 00:16:36 --- quit: Raystm2 ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 01:14:06 --- quit: saon (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:27:17 --- join: Baughn (~svein@cloud.brage.info) joined #forth 04:36:52 --- join: asau (~user@83.102.133.66) joined #forth 04:37:19 --- nick: asau -> ASau 04:42:33 --- part: madgarden_ left #forth 04:44:10 --- quit: fridge ("Leaving") 04:44:37 --- join: solar_angel (~jenni@MTL-ppp-156039.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 04:45:38 Dobry den, solar_angel! 04:45:50 hello ASau 04:47:07 --- join: Teratogen (~leontopod@intertwingled.net) joined #forth 05:16:01 What's there, on the other side of the planet? 05:16:15 Guten Tag, Teratogen! 05:52:00 Privet, ASau 05:52:22 And hi to Teratogen, solar_angel, etc. 05:52:30 hello :) 05:52:36 Fun waking up at sunset 05:52:44 Eternal darkness..mmm 05:52:54 that sounds cool. 05:53:36 It's not.. brb 06:09:51 Continuous sleep for 36 hours makes very specific feeling. 06:11:06 --- quit: Baughn ("Client broken") 06:11:19 --- join: Baughn (~svein@cloud.brage.info) joined #forth 06:12:04 ASau: You tried that? 06:12:18 * rob_ert returns from the shower. With tea and sandwitches 06:13:42 i find when i sleep for more than 24 hours, i start getting odd pains all over 06:14:22 That makes sense. That aside, how *can* you sleep that long? 06:14:23 rob_ert: Don't you find sandwiches get a bit soggy when you make them in the shower? 06:14:33 Do you ever sleep that much without being seriously ill? 06:14:45 Baughn - it's not hard if you're up for 36h in a stretch 06:15:01 i actually sleep shorter spells when i'm ill because i'm not up as long... 06:15:07 solar_angel: I am young and energetic. I *will* fail to understand such things. 06:15:08 holden: No, I use an umbrella 06:15:10 when i'm healthy, my day is 36h up. 06:15:26 Healthy...right. 06:15:30 Baughn - stay up for 36h each day, and then try. 16h sleep is pretty much essential then. 06:16:07 solar_angel: Why do you stay up that long anyhow? Work? 06:16:10 24 is a bit unusual though 06:16:13 no, not work... 06:16:18 it's my natural biorhythm 06:16:30 i'm way more productive and have a lot more energy during the day if i follow that schedule 06:16:38 No place for naturalness in this world 06:16:44 You have to WORK at THEIR hours 06:16:47 this world can bite me. 06:16:49 Mine is, unfortunately, 27 hours. It's annoying, that's what it is. 06:17:24 solar_angel: That world DOES bite me 06:17:28 * solar_angel and her family are planning to start a commune. screw workin for The Man. 06:17:29 And it hurts. 06:17:51 Viva la revolution. I should do the same, one day. 06:17:58 * solar_angel grins. 06:18:19 Vive le Canada! :) 06:19:01 anyhow... 06:19:32 solar_angel: A commune of forth programmers? Do you take lispers? 06:19:37 lol Baughn. 06:19:39 Hehe. 06:19:42 we're not all forth programmers. 06:19:45 i think i'm the only one. 06:20:03 actually, we have a pretty wide range of skills. 06:20:32 steampunk :) 06:20:52 Oh, what a coincidence 06:20:52 I'm also the only Forth programmer in my family 06:20:56 heh 06:21:22 i'm not the only hardware geek though 06:21:25 not by any stretch 06:21:57 I don't even know any such people over here. 06:22:20 my partner loves doing soldering... so i lay out components and she solders them all down for me. 06:22:22 it's fun. 06:22:53 The only hardware hacking I do is with FPGAs. >_< 06:22:54 i just hope my friend/pupil can move up from NZ when we get set up. 06:23:03 fpgas are fun... but that's just barely hardware :P 06:23:12 I'd love being able to do more, but components are horribly expensive over here. 06:23:19 where are you? 06:23:45 there's a running gag in this house that i can make anything out of two transistors, a few resistors, and some chewing gum. 06:23:45 Ye olde city of polar bears, Tromsø. (In Norway) 06:23:54 Baughn: Köp via internet, då 06:24:05 rob_ert: Sure. Where from? 06:24:09 solar_angel: You should give her the schematics to a 4004, a bunch of transistors, and a big smile. 06:24:17 Baughn: I use mouser.com and futurlec.com 06:24:23 a 4004 06:24:24 ? 06:24:29 oohh, the processor :P 06:24:37 Right 06:24:38 well, we did price out transistors in quantities of 10k 06:24:48 i'd get a kick out of building a mini from transistors 06:24:55 Yes... 06:25:12 That's my goal for learning about CPU design 06:25:18 or motivation, rather 06:25:26 rob_ert: Ooh... thanks. Maybe my dream of an AI-controlled mini-destroyer will take place after all. 06:25:38 Baughn: :D 06:25:52 heh, actually, i'm thinking of making the transistors. 06:25:57 Now I just need to make it self-replicating... how to do that... 06:26:05 just to be excessively perverse. 06:26:12 heh 06:26:25 * solar_angel mentions something about her army of self-replicating laser-wielding spider robots. 06:26:39 solar_angel: I'm afraid that would be taking it a step too far. But if you got a lot of wire, you could always make relays. 06:26:47 It's actually doable, by now. 06:27:08 Assuming you consider other boats to be fair game for raw materials. 06:27:09 why would that be a step too far? 06:27:31 * Baughn goes off muttering about self-replicating machine shops. 06:27:54 solar_angel: Have you read the story about the first transistor computer+ 06:28:02 On the university of manchester, iirc. 06:28:28 150 transistors. It was LESS reliable than the vacuum tube machines. 06:28:37 heh 06:28:50 well, part of that was the logic family more than anything else. 06:28:57 RTL sucks 06:29:21 I don't know much about transistor manufacturing, but you'd have to make them VERY reliable to enjoy using the computer. 06:29:28 I'm not so sure they used RTL. 06:29:35 i actually *do* know a bit about transistor manufacturing. 06:29:39 More like DTL, but don't quote me on that 06:29:41 and yes, they did use RTL at first. 06:29:50 DTL didn't come around until much later 06:30:03 Robert, I've succeded in that (sleeping so long) several weeks ago. 06:30:08 ASau: Uhm, OK 06:30:28 solar_angel: OK. Out of curiousity, what did they use all the diodes for? 06:30:50 I think they used 5-10 times as many diodes as transistors. 06:30:58 I.e. a thousand or something. 06:31:03 i think overall i'm more comfortable manufacturing IC's than transistors though. 06:31:05 really? 06:31:06 interesting. 06:31:11 You can make a wired ROM from an array of diodes 06:31:26 yes, you can make wired rom... and there are a bunch of other possibilities 06:32:09 I had an old synthesized ham radio set where you had to program the channel frequencies using diodes soldered onto a board inside :) 06:32:26 holden: Heh, fun. 06:32:35 Out of sheer curiosity and no desire at all to make Berserkers, how do you make a transistor by hand? Any links? 06:32:37 anyway, it might be DTL though... 06:32:45 holden: What's your call sign? 06:32:55 Baughn - um... no, no links at all. nobody does it. it's considered "impossible" 06:32:56 I let it expire but it was M1CJD 06:32:56 http://www.computer50.org/kgill/transistor/trans.html 06:33:07 holden: OK. SM0YSR here 06:33:32 ohhh, GERMANIUM transistors 06:33:36 now that's the problem right there. 06:33:37 "The 1955 machine had a total of 200 point contact transistors and 1300 point diodes and had a power consumption of 150 watts. There were considerable reliabilty problems with the early batches of transistors and the average error free run in 1955 was only 1.5 hours." 06:33:51 solar_angel: I guess that settles it. Rod-logic it is. 06:33:52 silicon is much more reliable to start with 06:34:24 solar_angel: How about the quality of homemade transistors, do you know anything about thay? 06:34:27 that* 06:35:25 You know, I wonder how long it will be before someone *does* come up with a self-replicating machine. 06:35:54 The basics seem to be in place.. 06:36:54 depends... 06:36:55 Hmm... would be interesting to code an intergalactic worm. 06:37:05 The aliens would be SO pissed off at us 06:37:24 * rob_ert giggles like an UFO nutcase 06:37:44 I could use steam engines for power... 06:38:41 Optics will be a problem. CCDs aren't especially easy to make. 06:38:48 One of my christmas gifts to myself is a solar ang^W panel. 06:38:51 Harvest digital cameras from tourists? 06:38:58 Haha. :) 06:39:26 Too bad the earth is so damn heavy 06:39:32 I want to make a space probe. :( 06:39:52 lol robert. 06:39:58 anyway, as i was saying... 06:40:14 homemade transistors... 06:40:23 they require a lot of things that most people don't have in their home... 06:40:37 A simple generator can be made with just wiring, by using electromagnetism instead of ferro-magnetism... just need to keep it running. 06:40:57 Or... not. 06:41:13 I found an old steam engine. 06:41:19 Perhaps I could use it to run a computer... 06:41:25 but assuming you're not afraid of GVD and cathode sputtering... 06:41:40 I am afraid of TLAs I don't get 06:41:46 gas vapor deposition 06:41:52 Sounds scary. 06:41:57 it is, a little 06:42:04 I think I'll buy my transistors, thankyouverymuch 06:42:06 it requires the use of high vaccuum equipment 06:42:28 Ah. Rod logic, definitely rod logic. 06:42:46 Hm... 06:42:53 * rob_ert got an interesting idea. 06:42:54 well, i have to work out how to do a lot of this technology if ever i'm going to complete the design for my self-replicating spider robots. 06:43:16 You do that, and I'll handle the self-replicating ravenous micro-destroyers. 06:43:19 actually, i've been slowly working on a process for making IC's using inkjet technology... 06:43:20 You can integrate sillicon transistors on a chip, right? So why not integrate a lot of vacuum tubes in one glass bulb? 06:43:24 * Baughn already has half a design. ;) 06:43:25 Youcan 06:43:30 rob_ert - it's been done. 06:43:32 get a "microprocessor" 06:43:39 solar_angel: Entire computers? 06:43:40 solar_angel, copper-oxide diodes are reality of the past. 06:43:43 entire computers?!?! 06:43:49 VLSI tubes?! 06:43:50 that's scary. 06:44:00 Yes. 06:44:01 ASau - copper oxide diodes? 06:44:05 that's really old-school. 06:44:05 But it would be VERY cool. 06:44:21 It might even work half a second befor one of them malfunctions! 06:44:25 Copper oxide is semiconductor. 06:44:26 Imagine a 2x2x2m tube. 06:44:39 yes, i know about copper oxide... it's just way oldschool. 06:44:59 Does it *work*, though? 06:45:04 does what work? 06:45:12 Copper-oxide transistors. :D 06:45:20 About a century ago it was usual thing. 06:45:23 yep, they do. not particularly well, but they do work. 06:45:29 What's the simplest transistor one could make? 06:45:41 rob_ert - probably germanium point-contact. 06:45:45 I'm comparing to rod-logic here. Humor me; how hard is it to make a Cu transistor? 06:45:57 Germanium is hard to work with. 06:46:00 Baughn - um... it's not really useful for transistors. 06:46:01 Germanium is too rare in ship hulls. 06:46:01 solar_angel: Ah, OK. I'll ask mom for some Ge then 06:46:06 solar_angel: Aww... 06:46:19 germanium is hard to work with, yes... it's just probably easier for an average hobby-type than doing zone-refining 06:46:26 doping and heating 06:46:39 (That said, i'm planning to do the zone refining, doping and firing of silicon) 06:46:53 At home laboratory??? 06:46:58 sure, why not? 06:47:09 my home is already mostly laboratory. 06:47:29 Ge is too sensitive to pollutions. 06:47:33 i used to be set up for serigraphy at one time. 06:47:41 It's too easy to oxidize. 06:47:45 next time around i'll set up for lithography. 06:47:58 sure, Ge isn't *reliable*. it's just easier to do without needing all the fancy evil heavy equipment. 06:48:10 which is exactly why i'm not touching it. 06:48:42 That's why I like steam engines. They will burn *anything* - dropped branches, bunker oil, whatever they can get at. 06:48:43 I'd rather think about metal oxides. 06:49:09 i'm just partial to silicon, personally. 06:49:33 and i've always wanted to build a high-power inductive heating system :P 06:49:41 Baughn, steam engines waste too much energy. 06:50:05 ASau: What's your point? Ease of duplication is the issue for me. 06:50:23 asau: How do you think most big power stations work? 06:50:52 holden - well, a steam turbine isn't exactly the same as an old-style steam engine... 06:51:00 but the point is valid regardless. 06:51:02 It is a steam engine though 06:51:07 yes, yes it is. 06:51:23 as for ease of duplication... try a tesla turbine. very simple to make and mass-produce. 06:51:27 10% efficiency would be enough for this, though. 06:51:36 Tesla? Looking up. 06:52:00 it's a turbine powered by fluid adhesion 06:52:23 What kind of fluid? 06:52:26 one moving part, no fins or flutes or pits or whatnot, very smooth operating. 06:52:32 virtually any kind of fluid 06:52:35 that sounds like a tesla turbine 06:52:36 water, steam, oil, thick sludge 06:52:42 Ooh... 06:52:47 I440r - right, that's why i'm describing a tesla turbine' 06:52:53 aha lol 06:53:02 i only saw the description you gave heh 06:53:07 holden, atomic power stations do not burn anything inside. 06:53:19 ASau - no, but they're still steam engines. 06:53:29 I440r_: In isForth, how do I read a word from the input stream? 06:56:32 hrm... i wonder how much hardware task switching via the mmu will complicate the implementation of a FORTH kernel. 06:56:56 solar_angel, I know. Original point was: "s. e. can burn anything." 06:57:08 ah okay. 06:57:26 * solar_angel is planning to run a steam engine of sorts from the output of a central-tower heliostat array. 06:57:58 solar_angel: You're starting to sound very independent. Good luck on that. 06:58:04 thanks Baughn :) 06:58:49 Yes, your commune would be very unique, as one of the few making its own ICs. 06:58:58 * solar_angel grins. 06:58:59 exactly :) 06:59:06 I'll talk the local anarchists into dealing with you. 06:59:12 lol 06:59:17 we're not anarchists, we're communists. 06:59:19 there's a difference. 06:59:22 solar_angel: I should ask, what source of income are you planning? 06:59:29 Baughn - income? 06:59:32 solar_angel: So you're going to be democratic? 06:59:33 solar_angel: Anarchists are a subset of communists, so... 06:59:44 solar_angel: It's not like you can make *everything* yourself. 06:59:46 rob_ert - um, no they're not, they're not even remotely similar. 06:59:50 Baughn - we can't? 06:59:52 why not? 07:00:03 solar_angel: Raw materials, for example. I've tried smelting ore; it's a bitch and a half. 07:00:08 solar_angel: Yes they are. Unless you're thinking of some very special kind of movement. 07:00:39 rob_ert, anarchist have nothing in common with communists. 07:00:48 Anarchists are capitalists. 07:00:50 Baughn - depends on the raw material. there are a few raw materials that we'll have to trade for (metals in particular), but we'll produce most of them. 07:01:04 No. 07:01:08 solar_angel: Internet connection? 07:01:12 You're thinking of capitalist libertarians. 07:01:24 Baughn - heh, well okay, internet connection is something we're going to try to maintain as long as we can. 07:01:29 solar_angel: So you're going to trade, which was more or less my point. 07:01:39 there'll be some trade, but it'll likely be relatively limited 07:01:50 They don't even like being called anarchists. 07:01:52 we might just scavenge the raw bits we need though 07:02:07 solar_angel: Not sustainable. Besides, how will you ever get iPods? 07:02:13 The word "anarchist" is mostly reserved for the communist anarchists. 07:02:28 Baughn - frankly, buying into the consumerist world is just asking for trouble. we simply won't get ipods. 07:02:40 rob_ert, anarchists' program has nothing in common with communists'. 07:02:58 You'd better read something on the problem. 07:03:24 solar_angel: Thus my implied :P. If you can make ICs, you can certainly make LP players if you want them. 07:03:36 ASau: Depends which communists. 07:03:51 Baughn - well, the other thing is, there are often simpler ways of doing things that require less resources. 07:03:56 ASau: Anarchists call themselves communists, and Soviet communism "state capitalism" 07:04:17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_communism 07:04:18 solar_angel: Simpler, yes. Better? 07:04:25 better is relative. 07:04:36 certainly the quality of goods has gone down *drastically* in recent years 07:04:41 so yes, in some ways, better is possible. 07:04:49 but mostly *simpler* 07:05:05 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_objections_to_marxism 07:05:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism 07:05:29 our computers are likely to be minicomputer-style... mostly small and medium-scale integration IC's... 07:05:36 Frankly, I'd prefer gleemen to CDs. The social aspects are useful. 07:05:41 simply because they're easier to build, maintain, repair, etc. 07:05:47 solar_angel: Making CPUs, then? 07:05:59 the CPU would be just a bunch of logic IC's. 07:06:11 i've already designed my fair share of computers 07:06:15 solar_angel: That's what they used to be. Ok, "processor board". 07:06:19 yep 07:06:20 exactly 07:06:28 (...and so on, I'll stop flooding links) 07:06:36 we have several historic computers in this house that are designed like that 07:06:39 we have a Xerox Star here :P 07:06:46 solar_angel: You'll have to write all your own software. Ok, you're a forther; any other programmers around? 07:06:50 and a couple PDP-11's. 07:06:55 Heh. 07:07:01 Now you're making me jealous. 07:07:06 Baughn - i've already written most of an OS, a compiler, a standard library, a wealth of other libraries 07:07:12 Not only you know people, but you have PDP11s? 07:07:12 sound, graphics, text handling. 07:07:21 heh 07:07:22 solar_angel: What language? 07:07:38 Baughn - i change languages like i change moods. 07:07:56 my compilers are for Forth, O4, Omen, Orange, and a couple others. 07:08:06 solar_angel: Let me rephrase my question. What *computer*? 07:08:11 (a few of those are interpreters or dyninterpreters) 07:08:15 ditto for computers :P 07:08:23 i've been primarily working on x86 for convenience 07:08:26 but i'm not tied to it 07:08:41 i'm planning to get a FORTH system running on the Osiris when i finish building it 07:08:49 solar_angel: You're really making me jealous over here, you know. Maybe I'll stop by once. 07:08:56 lol 07:09:18 that reminds me, i still have to write my new malloc. 07:09:34 solar_angel: It's not the kind of thing I'm likely to do (extropian here), but it's still very intriguing. 07:10:01 * solar_angel smiles. 07:10:27 extropian ? 07:10:45 rob_ert: Think "realistic transhumanist". 07:10:52 (Damn it, I sound like a Forth interpreter when I'm asking people to define words) 07:11:00 transhumanist? 07:11:06 lol robert 07:11:06 You're trans? 07:11:28 Not really; it's more like they're extremists. 07:11:34 i'm confused now. 07:11:39 * rob_ert is, too 07:11:46 who's transing what in the wherenow? :P 07:12:00 rob_ert, just compare Bakunin's program with Lenin's. 07:12:06 Feel the difference. 07:12:17 ASau: Of course there's a difference 07:12:26 ASau: Lenin was one kind of communist, Bakunin was another. 07:12:41 communism without totalitarianism. now there's a thought. 07:12:43 rob_ert, Bakunin never was a communist. 07:12:52 That's your definition. 07:13:03 solar_angel: That _is_ anarchism. 07:13:05 rob_ert, sorry, that's not my definition. 07:13:21 Let me put it like this, then: Transhumanists are working actively towards a technological singularity. Extropians try to make the best of things as they are, instead. (Which includes maximizing progress, but hey... it's not a goal in itself.) 07:13:23 rob_ert - um... no, it's not. anarchism also implies a certain disdain for structure and organization. 07:14:01 solar_angel: Not really, just that they're done on a voluntary basis. 07:14:18 ahhh, i see. 07:14:20 As opposed to the "do as we say" attitude of e.g. the Soviet union 07:14:21 you're an anarchist, right? 07:14:28 rob_ert: That just doesn't *work*, though. Tragedy of the commons? 07:14:54 rob_ert, I doubt you know well enough what S.U. was. 07:14:54 Voluntary work doesn't even work in a single family, how can it scale to a nation? 07:15:23 * solar_angel gives the orders, everyone else does what she says. works for her :P 07:15:25 I wouldn't call myself an anarchist, even though I share their vision of the perfect society, I doubt it's possible to implement here. 07:15:47 ASau: No, but on the other hand, I haven't been in any anarchist society either. 07:15:54 I just use my right to dream. 07:16:13 Possible to implement NOW, that is. 07:16:23 I'm convinced it will be possible sooner or later. 07:16:45 Just as today's "democracy" was unrealistic 200 years ago. 07:16:51 rob_ert: Put that way, we agree. I just happen to be the kind of person who'd overwrite the laws of physics to do it. 07:18:02 rob_ert, I was studying SU history more thoroughly than we were taught. 07:18:05 democracy? what democracy? 07:18:36 solar_angel: The Norwegian kind, for example. 07:18:38 we've just evolved a way for the people on top to placate the need for power process for those they enslave without actually abdicating the power. 07:18:41 rob_ert, democracy existed in Ancient Greece. 07:18:53 solar_angel: Even that wasn't possible back then. 07:18:58 Every citizen had at least two slaves. 07:19:22 solar_angel: It isn't a true democracy, but it does keep the arbitrary torture down. 07:19:30 ASau - that's a very practical arrangement. 07:19:36 speaking as someone who has two slaves. 07:19:52 Heh 07:20:41 Just a correction: every citizen had to own enough. 07:21:03 Otherwise he was not citizen. 07:21:33 Just like the western world until <100 years ago 07:21:58 I really think I prefer the western world *today*, though. 07:22:08 Hell, the americans call their society based on slavery democracy 07:22:29 Just to be able to cry in front of their flag and shoot iraqis in the name of democracy 07:22:51 * solar_angel laughs. 07:23:07 That, and their economy appears to be collapsing. What will happen if that happens, I don't know. 07:23:29 France will buy the USA and turn it into a theme park 07:23:33 As a revenge for Disney 07:23:50 Fall of rome, film at 11? 07:24:22 I don't like the USA, but I do think we're better off than we would be if it *collapses*. 07:24:31 Right 07:25:03 nah, i think the USA collapsing would be the best thing for the world right now 07:25:16 the american IP law system is stifling creative folks the world over 07:25:28 and don't get me started about the leeches that do nothing but hoard resources and don't actually produce anything 07:26:25 But think if what could happen. 07:26:37 I'm most worried about the inevitable convulsions. 07:26:51 Dying or not, they certainly have a large military. 07:27:11 true. 07:27:13 Yeah. Imagine Dick and Bush using that to control the world. 07:27:18 Er, wait, nevermind 07:27:30 Imagine them failing, and falling back to nukes. 07:27:33 But seriously, things could get a lot worse even in the US 07:27:36 Hehe 07:27:38 Tasty. 07:27:42 hrm... dirty jokes in mixed company. gotta love the new world order. 07:27:45 :P 07:28:16 rob_ert: Rules of Life, #1: Things can *always* get worse. 07:28:24 Baughn, you think so because you're American and can't imagine another way, don't you? 07:28:39 ASau: I'm what from where now? 07:28:43 * Baughn is Norwegian. 07:29:03 Yes, what would we be without the internet? 07:29:03 Terribly bored, I think. 07:29:22 I can imagine *plenty* of other ways, it's just that some are more entertaining than others. 07:29:52 Or, as someone pointed out on the radio an hour ago, the USA is imitating Argentina right now debt-wise. 07:29:54 Baughn, well, substitute "American" with "Norwegian." 07:31:57 Radio is not reliable information source now. 07:32:35 I never claimed it was. The numbers check out, but USA has a slightly different role than Argentina in the world economy. 07:32:54 All bets are off if that changes, but it doesn't seem likely to. 07:33:17 now is a great time to short sell the US dollar :P 07:33:23 Be it in Russia, Norwegia, USA or Zimbabve. 07:33:35 Now is a great time to buy from companies using USD. 07:33:39 And I do. 07:33:51 * rob_ert pats his growing collection of electronic toys 07:34:12 Now is, in fact, a great time to notice that some countries are wavering in the direction of the EU. 07:34:35 Baughn, and it changes nothing. 07:35:00 ASau: What would, then? 07:36:28 I know the answer, but you'll laugh at it. 07:36:43 That's why my answer is: 07:36:45 nothing. 07:37:06 ...you're right. I *would* laugh at that, but I was expecting it. 07:37:24 Murphy's Laws rule the World. 07:37:56 "If anything can go wrong, someone will eventually find a way to make it do so"? 07:39:19