00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.12.03 01:01:48 --- nick: onetom_ -> onetom 01:25:39 --- join: Raystm2 (~Ray@adsl-68-93-40-34.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 02:03:29 --- join: scope (~junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 02:26:05 --- join: paintcan (~randolm@rn-v1w5a06.uwaterloo.ca) joined #forth 02:42:24 --- nick: paintcan -> wossname 02:58:54 --- quit: Raystm2 ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 03:43:24 --- quit: onetom (tolkien.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:43:24 --- quit: fridge (tolkien.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:45:05 --- join: onetom (~tom@cab.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 03:45:49 --- join: fridge (~fridge@dsl-220-253-75-214.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 03:45:51 --- quit: onetom (Killed by sagan.freenode.net (Nick collision)) 03:45:52 --- join: onetom (~tom@160.114.27.135) joined #forth 03:46:02 --- join: onetom_ (~tom@160.114.27.135) joined #forth 03:46:23 --- quit: onetom (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:54:40 --- join: Raystm2 (~Ray@adsl-68-93-40-34.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 04:38:25 --- quit: fca ("reboot") 04:42:16 --- join: fca (~anvil@h229n2fls31o815.telia.com) joined #forth 05:03:49 --- quit: Raystm2 ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 05:08:22 --- quit: warp0b00 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:19:18 --- join: holden (~alex@dsl-62-3-116-153.zen.co.uk) joined #forth 05:45:32 --- quit: wossname (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:46:56 --- join: wossname (~randolm@rn-v1w5a06.uwaterloo.ca) joined #forth 05:47:54 --- join: Raystm2 (~Ray@adsl-68-93-40-34.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 06:04:48 --- quit: Raystm2 ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 06:05:01 --- quit: raystm22 ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 06:44:14 --- join: raystm22 (~colorfort@adsl-69-149-55-146.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 06:44:31 --- join: madwork (~madgarden@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 06:46:33 --- join: Raystm2 (~Ray@adsl-69-149-55-146.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 06:52:25 --- join: Raystm2- (~Ray@adsl-69-149-55-146.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 06:55:23 --- join: warp0b00 (~warpzero@mi200.dn181.umontana.edu) joined #forth 06:58:33 --- join: segher (~segher@blueice4n1.de.ibm.com) joined #forth 07:00:57 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 07:14:32 --- quit: Raystm2- (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:17:21 --- quit: raystm22 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:07:28 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 08:09:45 Hi fox 08:10:11 hellloo 09:08:46 --- join: arke_ (apache@11.198.216.81.dre.siw.siwnet.net) joined #forth 09:24:42 halllloooo 09:25:39 guten morgen 09:26:08 Hi OrngeTide and others 09:31:15 is it just me 09:31:19 or are computers all wrong 09:33:25 I think you AND the computers are wrong. 09:33:29 (..about what?) 09:35:04 COMPUTERS ARE TEH SUXXX0R 09:35:25 ROFLMAO@U 09:36:17 STFU U NUB 09:39:49 is arke bipolar? 09:40:11 I haven't seen the other pole. 09:42:10 ahah:) 09:46:00 sorry, my other side was talking again, I'm back in control of my brain now. 09:48:30 for now... 09:48:31 :) 09:48:43 Which part is the evil side - the left? 09:50:04 all sides are evil. :) 09:55:06 they're both evil in their own little way 09:55:19 right side is stronger. been trying to stop masturbating for a year now. Still hasn't happened. 09:55:33 --- quit: scope (Client Quit) 10:00:06 tmi 10:10:17 --- quit: arke_ ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") 10:12:26 --- quit: OrngeTide ("gotta go") 10:18:27 Hey you, out there in the cold, getting lonely, getting old, ... 11:29:42 --- quit: warpzero ("Tried to warn you about Chino and Daddy Gee, but I can't seem to get to you through the U.S. Mail.") 11:39:26 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.103.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth 12:20:48 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 12:56:53 --- join: saon (Ecoder@c-24-129-95-254.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 13:05:27 --- quit: segher (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:24:11 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@modem-092.nyc-tc03a.FCC.NET) joined #forth 13:45:03 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 14:44:27 --- join: crc (crc@pool-70-20-179-18.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 15:01:16 prolog is fun 15:01:28 but i wonder how i'm going to hack a counter in it.. 15:01:49 Write a forth in prolog 15:02:01 ... you obviously never programmed in prolog 15:02:11 that would be quite an accomplishment 15:02:12 :D 15:02:13 * TheBlueWizard laughs 15:02:29 prolog cant even do ANY math 15:02:30 yeah, that would indeed be an accomplishment 15:02:38 heck forget math 15:02:44 it cant do mem fetch/store 15:02:53 it cant count 15:03:03 its just... whats that logic called in english? 15:03:08 predikaten logica 15:03:11 but thats dutch... 15:04:08 prolog is declarative, not procedural, so you can't specify how to carry stuff out....the correct spelling is "predicate logic" 15:04:18 right 15:04:23 qFox: can it manipulate symbols? 15:04:47 i would answer that question, but to be very honest, i'm not sure what you mean by it... 15:05:09 Like in lisp? 15:05:14 this is my start for a textbased adventure... 15:05:15 kijk :- write('Je ziet een recht voor je een magische deur die halfzwevend een eindje voor je in het bos ... staat. \nLinks is eng donker bos, rechts is het nog donkerder, maar da''s water.\nAchter je zijn een aantal nog-te-definieren monsters.\n\n'). 15:05:15 intro :- write('Goedemorgen!\n\nJe ziet niets\nJe bent in een bos.\nJe bent bang.\nRen!\n\n'). 15:05:15 ganaar :- write('Ga naar: Voor, achter, links, rechts, dood...\n\n'). 15:05:15 :- intro, kijk, ganaar. 15:05:22 ick 15:05:27 :D 15:05:28 Not lisp-like at all is it? 15:05:32 oh heck no 15:05:35 its a logical language 15:05:39 * crc likes lisp for managing symbols 15:05:41 Ahh, I see 15:05:51 and like i said, predicate logic. and really just that, predicate logic. virtually nothing else. 15:06:16 write() is one of a handfull non-logic ... words 15:06:32 (or so i was told ;) 15:06:41 :-) 15:06:45 when i asked how to increase or decrease a "variable" by one, she just laughed 15:06:45 :p 15:07:30 On average 0 percent of the daily visits are made before 0:06. Based on the number of visitors of 1 today so far, today your site may have 643 page views (+/- 642). 15:07:33 stupid nedstat 15:07:51 prolog is designed to handle relationships and things like that. In this context, Prolog is pretty powerful 15:08:02 that i'll agree with 15:08:09 its pretty wicked 15:08:16 * TheBlueWizard nodsnods 15:08:44 pity i have to do many other things or i would work far far ahead compared to lectures 15:13:04 Hi 15:14:51 hiya Robert 15:15:22 Hi TheBlueWizard, qFox, crc :) 15:15:36 crc: What are the system requrements for retroforth native? 15:15:38 Hi Robert 15:15:45 yo 15:16:02 386, 2MB ram, text-capable video card and monitor, keyboard, floppy drive 15:16:13 * crc goes to eat dinner; be back in a few minutes 15:16:17 Ah, good. 15:16:23 My 386 has that. 15:16:27 I should try it. 15:17:08 a 16-bit version is coming soon too :-) 15:17:46 * crc wants to run it on an original IBM PC 15:18:08 :D 15:20:42 Robert> crc wants you to code a forth in prolog 15:20:54 ... heck, i want you to. ;) 15:28:53 Pffft 15:28:56 Stupidest idea EVER. 15:29:10 i would say leet. but ok 15:30:02 Hmm...maybe a little. ;) 15:35:49 back 15:37:32 Got it to boot in bochs 15:37:45 I'll try it on the 386 15:37:48 :-) 15:38:09 If it doesn't boot let me know; I'm still working on the boot sector in the 7.6 release 15:38:34 * crc is 75% done the 8088 port 15:39:09 * qFox almost has his first adventure ever... and first ... somewhat real prolog app... ever :) 15:40:53 Heh 15:41:02 i'm actually enjoying this 15:41:02 Loading kernel: failed! 15:41:24 :-( 15:42:44 what bios do you have in that machine? 15:43:20 It's an IBM PS/1, 386 shipped with 2MB RAM (now 6MB), 80MB HD (now 80+210MB) 15:43:45 Don't know any details about the BIOS, but from that you should be able to find out 16:03:07 --- join: Zymurgy (zymurgy@NorthBay-ppp282262.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 16:11:08 gotta go...bye all 16:11:20 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 16:15:58 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 16:18:44 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-160-167-244.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 16:26:33 I have come up with my counterhack 16:26:40 i'll just drop marbles on the floor 16:26:44 x marbles 16:26:49 and pick one up. 16:26:56 when the marbles are up, the beast is dead 16:27:06 :D 16:27:11 prolog rox 16:31:40 nite 16:31:41 --- quit: qFox ("this quit is sponsored by somebody!") 17:00:11 * saon has fallen in love with forth 17:00:29 saon: welcome to the club :) 17:00:56 --- quit: wossname ("ffffff") 17:01:10 i hardly know any forth and managed to write a prime generator in under an hour in it 17:01:13 saon: _which_ forth? 17:01:25 and it took me over 4 hours in C after some light experience with it 17:01:29 hehe 17:02:05 crc, currently i'm using gforth on my linux box, isforth on another slackware box at school, and i'm preparing to use your retroforth on the old box in my room 17:02:19 cool 17:02:36 * crc uses RetroForth, isForth, gForth, and Win32Forth 17:03:00 The last three are for testing code that I'm porting to RetroForth though, not day-to-day use ;-) 17:19:32 hehe 17:23:56 The others are bloated compared to RetroForth 18:01:48 Hi 18:05:23 hey robert 18:05:30 How are things? 18:06:37 good i suppose 18:06:48 and yourself? 18:07:03 OK, I suppose. 18:10:15 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:26:41 --- quit: saon ("Leaving") 19:04:57 --- join: Sonarman_ (~matt@adsl-64-160-165-150.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 19:12:43 --- quit: Sonarman (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:19:01 --- nick: Sonarman_ -> Sonarman 19:41:26 --- quit: tathi ("booting herkforth") 19:51:31 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:53:52 Did it work? :) 19:55:05 yeah, works fine since I stopped being stupid yesterday. :) 19:55:18 Heheh 19:55:30 What kind of Forth is HerkForth? 19:55:38 now...if I just had ext2 file support and a postscript interpreter so I could read my docs without having to come back to linux... 19:55:42 color 19:55:55 Ah, neat. 19:56:13 though since Herkamire is into user interface stuff, it's not so primitive as chuck's 19:56:29 That's probably a good thing. :) 19:56:54 Oh, I really like it. 19:57:02 It's annoying to create a double set of words for manipulation of bytes vs. entire cells. 19:57:44 It doesn't have very high system requirements, right? 19:57:50 Herkforth? 19:57:57 The macs in my price range (free) aren't all that modern. 19:57:58 Right 19:58:12 it just needs OpenFirmware 19:58:16 Well, it needs OpenFirmware. 19:58:36 tathi: lol, I'll see if I can add those by next week ;) 19:58:49 Which the original PowerMacs don't have. 19:59:04 Oh... 19:59:06 Herkamire: thanks, that would be great :P 19:59:25 Well, I'm talking about the computers that are just a little more recent than the Apple II. 19:59:31 But I guess there are other Forths. :) 19:59:39 Robert: you can run it in x86 linux under qemu 19:59:54 err...any linux, I presume. 20:00:01 About our recent discussion on memory protection, does HerkForth use that? 20:00:12 not yet. 20:00:12 tathi: Not the same thing. ;) 20:00:21 Do you plan to implement it? 20:00:36 Robert: well, it does catch SIGSEGV and SIGILL under Linux. 20:01:07 I want to add that sort of thing in the bootable version as well. 20:01:22 Saves waiting the 15 seconds (grr) to reboot. 20:01:26 Robert: it is pretty much the same thing at this point... 20:02:01 qemu doesn't support the signal handling stuff 20:02:38 OK.. Well, I'm not going to try it anyway (at least not now). 20:02:45 I don't know if it's because qemu only knows the x86 ioctl constants or what, but it says "unsupported ioctl" or something like that 20:03:58 that's the get-terminal-size stuff, not signal handling 20:04:00 isn't it? 20:06:01 Robert: you have enough other forths for the moment? ;) 20:07:13 I got three different on-going Forth projects of my own, and I'm using isForth for the routine Forth hacking on Linux. 20:07:39 That, and I'm constantly reading some Forth article. It's been a lot of Forth lately, for some reason. 20:08:03 (OK, I know very well what that reason is. I'm deeply in love with minimalism) 20:09:07 I'm not so into minimalism as I was. 20:09:31 I'm not always into it. 20:09:34 I mean, don't add extra stuff that's just total crap. 20:10:02 Half the time I'm bashing myself for being stupid enough to work with outdated technologies leading nowhere. 20:10:09 And isForth still feels pretty big :) 20:10:12 The rest of the time I'm enjoying it. :) 20:10:16 It is... 20:10:32 But it's still possible to get an overview of it. 20:10:36 well, that's what outdated technologies are for -- fun! 20:10:45 And it's really not that complex. Like certain "portable" C Forths. 20:11:07 :) 20:11:20 I have mentioned that I'm also enjoying telegraphy on the shortwave bands, right? 20:11:29 I'm working backwards. 20:11:31 you may have... 20:11:37 But I didn't know that :) 20:11:42 My goal is to enslave humanity, and move it back to the stone age. 20:13:32 noooo! 20:26:38 --- join: saon (Ecoder@c-24-129-95-254.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 20:29:46 hello all 20:30:06 Hi saon 20:30:32 i seem to have stumbled upon an offical forth book 20:30:45 anybody know if it's worth it? 20:30:57 "official forth"? :) 20:31:13 I haven't read any Forth books, so I can't comment on that. 20:31:16 that's what i was thinking 20:31:28 forth didn't seem like a "learn from a book language" 20:31:56 it's more of a "here's a few things, hack until you know what you're doing" 20:32:00 Nah, more like "learn from your IRC friends". ;) 20:32:05 hehe 20:32:06 Hehe 20:32:12 Something like that 20:32:22 A good way to learn, in my opinion 20:33:08 i printed out a copy of the free forth primer 20:33:43 but it doesn't seem terribly organized, nor all-inclusive 20:33:54 The problem is what to include. 20:33:56 but then again, i suppose with all the different forth's out there, it's kinda hard to be 20:34:02 forths* 20:34:03 Yeah 20:34:21 What kind of Forth are you currently most interested in? 20:34:54 i've been using gforth and isforth 20:35:01 although i think isforth is sexier 20:35:15 have yet to try retroforth on linux 20:37:43 i've looked through some different Forth programs and must say that I don't really like the ANS forth standard 20:38:23 Hehe. 20:38:31 hehe, it just looks so...anti-Forthish 20:38:36 :D 20:38:44 So you're a traditionalist, then. ;) 20:39:04 an attempt to strap imperative style to a paradigm-less language 20:39:18 i suppose so :) 20:40:10 Written any (somewhat) useful/useable Forth code yet? 20:40:32 not particularly, just some hacks here and there to better understand new words as i learn them 20:40:52 slowly working my way through that forth primer 20:41:18 although i skipped ahead a bit to check out the section "what does> create do?" 20:41:25 Heh 20:41:36 Neat name for a section. 20:41:42 and i was amazed by the cool stuff you could do using create and does> 20:41:51 Yeah. 20:42:42 robert, what languages do you code in other than forth? 20:43:14 Mostly assembly language, not as much C as I used to. For school I have to use Java. And in the past, I used to do some Pascal and even BASIC. 20:43:57 Been trying to learn a little OCaml as well. And I've done a little Perl (if you count that as a language and not a very flexible all-purpose program ;) 20:44:15 How about you? 20:44:28 just C and euphoria as actual languages 20:44:39 attempted little hacks in x86/Z80 asm 20:44:56 Z80, your TI calculator? 20:44:59 yup 20:45:09 yeah :) 20:45:17 * Robert has a z80 in the junkbox he should make better use of. 20:45:34 Z80 asm lets me do all sorts of fun stuff :) 20:45:48 i need to set up an assembler for it on my linux box 20:46:17 and find my link cable 20:46:21 Maybe I should hook up some more RAM to an AVR and code a decent Forth. 20:46:44 If I only could find good I/O devices, especially for portable use. 20:48:09 i would love to have a portable forth 20:48:51 (that's a pretty ambiguous statement :) 20:48:53 i guess that qu-something-or-other is about the only portable platform forth? 20:49:14 i mean hand-held platform :) 20:49:31 --- quit: tathi ("bed") 20:49:32 I wish I could reprogram a calculator. 20:49:52 They can make them for like a dollar each, including a battery which lasts for years. 20:50:42 * saon watches as robert takes over the world with his mobile cluster of pocket calculators 20:51:00 >:) 20:51:06 Seriously, wouldn't that be cool? 20:51:16 $2 Forth computers 20:51:19 No battery limit 20:51:39 Perhaps not extremely powerful, but good enough to code games and do calculations. 20:51:43 hehe 20:52:29 i'd like a real calculator (higher-end TI, middle-range hp) built on forth 20:53:04 closest i can get is something like an hp48gII with reverse polish lisp 20:54:48 This are a little more expensive. 20:55:17 about $110 over here 20:55:24 Unfortunately I think the number of crazy Forthers is too limited to make such a low-end computer. :( 20:55:29 which is around the cost of a TI-84+ 20:55:29 Expensive. 20:55:39 agreed 20:56:11 school here mandates you either get a ti83+ (ti84+ now) or borrow one from the school 20:56:18 required for all maths just about 20:56:40 * saon doesn't like the removal of people's ability to do mental math 20:58:07 Nah, it's good to be able to do some number magic. 20:58:37 I don't think I've used a calculator so far in the math courses at the university. 20:59:18 yeah 20:59:25 i try to avoid mine 20:59:34 discover all sorts of fun shortcuts without it 21:00:16 And discover the many different errors you can make. 21:01:41 :) 21:02:35 I hate doing routine calculations without calculators/computers. 21:02:49 Stuff like when they give you a large equation system. 21:03:40 i hate doing stuff like finding all 0's of a polynomial function by hand 21:05:22 i'm out, it's around midnight here, later robert 21:05:28 OK, night. 21:05:28 --- quit: saon ("Leaving") 21:23:29 --- quit: Zymurgy ("Leaving") 21:26:22 ok, I hacked pearpc to be able to display text reasonably fast 21:31:36 now I just need to hack it to accept larger reads 21:31:44 s/reads/writes/ 21:32:03 in my larger blocks it doesn't display the whole screen 21:54:18 --- quit: Herkamire ("bed") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.12.03