00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.11.25 00:08:34 --- quit: Sonarman ("leaving") 01:34:26 --- join: tea (~tea@cap052-025.kcn.ne.jp) joined #forth 01:35:03 --- part: tea left #forth 01:35:09 --- join: forther (~chatzilla@adsl-64-172-46-249.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 01:36:18 --- quit: imaginator (".") 01:38:19 --- quit: wossname (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:50:56 --- quit: forther (Remote closed the connection) 01:59:16 --- join: crc (crc@0-1pool20-6.nas31.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 02:56:34 --- quit: Raystm2 ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 02:57:18 --- nick: rastm2_ -> RaySt 02:57:34 --- nick: RaySt -> RayStMarie 03:43:49 --- join: ASau (~root@83.102.133.66) joined #forth 04:00:10 --- join: holden (~alex@dsl-62-3-116-153.zen.co.uk) joined #forth 04:41:48 --- join: wossname (~randolm@rn-v1w5a06.uwaterloo.ca) joined #forth 04:44:01 --- nick: RayStMarie -> rastm2_ 04:46:48 --- join: Raystm2 (~vircuser@adsl-68-93-115-44.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 04:59:53 --- quit: cmeme (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:00:42 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.2) joined #forth 05:00:59 --- quit: cmeme (Remote closed the connection) 05:01:44 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.2) joined #forth 05:15:39 --- join: crc2 (crc@0-1pool40-40.nas36.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:15:53 --- quit: crc (Nick collision from services.) 05:15:54 --- nick: crc2 -> crc 05:36:40 --- quit: crc ("" Time for bed... Goodnight!" type cr bye") 05:37:47 --- quit: Raystm2 ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 06:34:24 --- quit: madwork_ (Remote closed the connection) 06:41:32 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 06:41:41 Hi tathi 06:41:47 Any luck yet? 06:45:35 Oh yeah. 06:45:55 Cool. :) So it's running fine? 06:45:55 Herkamire knew where the major problem was. 06:46:02 Yup. 06:46:03 sup in this forth 06:46:08 Got anything done in it, yet? 06:46:31 Well...we wrote a word to save a linux version to the hard drive 06:46:35 What kind of Forth is it anyway, colored/white or threaded/native code? 06:46:50 warpzero: Forthing in C. ;) 06:46:55 And I wrote a script to extract it under Linux so now you can get changes back from the bootable version. 06:47:03 herkforth is a colored forth. 06:47:08 native code. 06:47:27 not exactly your standard color forth though. 06:47:54 has a nice user interface and *gasp* documentation! 06:48:04 is there a windows version? ;) 06:48:24 tathi: Haha. :) 06:48:31 Robert: !? 06:48:43 wossname: no, sorry, it's written in PowerPC assembly language. 06:48:59 Runs under Linux or standalone. 06:49:14 :) 06:49:15 Though...actually I think you can run it under qemu on other Linux platforms. 06:50:16 I should get a mac some day. 06:50:33 Next time they give away one for fre.... 06:51:13 free* 06:52:19 "they" :) 06:53:02 would never buy a mac, eh? :p 06:53:10 They, as in those nicknames on IRC who actually have physical bodies. 06:53:21 (so called Swedes) 06:55:57 what kind of madman gives away a computer? 06:57:09 Good question. 07:00:22 --- join: crc (crc@0-1pool220-175.nas17.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 07:01:10 hi crc 07:01:21 Herkforth boots on my computer now! 07:01:24 Hi tathi 07:01:25 cool 07:01:35 And it saves to the hard drive. 07:01:40 very cool 07:01:50 And even can save a Linux version to the hard drive so you can get the changes back into Linux. 07:01:55 Yay! :) 07:01:57 ! 07:02:00 Awesome! 07:02:22 * crc is impressed 07:02:22 I need to get RetroForth/Native to a more useful state :-( 07:02:49 :-( 07:05:39 --- join: crc2 (crc@0-1pool228-6.nas19.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 07:05:55 --- quit: crc (Nick collision from services.) 07:05:57 --- nick: crc2 -> crc 07:06:06 back :-) 07:07:12 Hi crc 07:07:45 Is there any "standard" name for a word dropping the 3rd stack item, i.e. one step from NIP? 07:08:25 Not that I know of 07:08:38 OK, then "DRIP" it is. 07:08:44 hehe 07:09:21 : drip >r >r drop r> r> ; ? 07:10:13 * crc is planning to add cinvoke to RetroForth/Windows 07:10:24 * crc hates the inconsistancy of the Win32 API :-( 07:10:44 crc: Kind of. 20 lines of C code. ;) 07:10:52 (writing an optimizing compiler) 07:10:54 ick 07:11:48 * crc only does simple optimizations like automatic tail recursion and inlining of a few primitives 07:12:35 I've been coding a bit on the STC bootable Forth system, and noticed how terribly ugly things get without register caching. 07:12:53 So I'm going to try it out, at least. 07:14:45 hehe 07:15:37 I only cache a few things in registers: TOS, SP, and RP 07:17:40 Yeah, I cache TOS in a register, but it STILL gets messy. 07:18:03 how so? 07:18:09 Anyway... If I finish this I'll do some benchmarks and see if it's worth continuing. 07:18:36 For example, something as simple as DUP becomes lea esi,[esi-4] / mov [esi],ebx 07:19:01 Or the other way around, if you want to avoid writing to esi before using it. 07:19:25 Hmm, my DUP is: 07:19:25 sub esi,4 07:19:25 mov [esi],eax 07:19:31 Still, 5 or 6 bytes and two instructions there. In most cases this could be optimized away completely. 07:19:44 DROP is just "LODSD" though 07:19:52 completely? 07:20:04 Hehe. A trick I got from colorForth is to use lea instead, because it conserves the flags. 07:20:27 And LODSD is strongly discouraged for performance reasons, they say. 07:20:53 heh, it's fast enough for me :-) 07:21:38 Yes... Imagine some simple code like "dup +" for multiplication with 2, that could be compiled to "add register,register" instead of "sub esi,4 / mov [esi],eax / add [esi],eax / add esi,4 / mov eax,[esi] 07:21:53 Yeah, proibably is "fast enough" for most application. 07:22:06 But now slava challenged me to write a free Forth compiler generating fast code. 07:22:34 But how fast does it need to be? 07:24:38 challenge slava to write a compiler for factor that generates fast code :-) 07:24:44 Hehe! 07:25:14 I know, it doesn't have to be very fast, but it feels _wrong_ to make inefficient code when you can easily make it efficient. 07:25:27 Or rather, to generate inefficient code. 07:25:49 I'd rather have somewhat slower code that's easy to follow though 07:26:13 Oh, I'm talking about the compiler here. The code itself will be identical. 07:26:57 * crc doesn't understand 07:27:04 Which part? 07:27:31 First you said that you were challenged to write a forth compiler generating fast code 07:27:45 Now you say that you're talking about the compiler. 07:28:24 fast compiler <> fast code 07:28:48 Sorry, perhaps I misunderstood you somewhere. Which code were you talking about, when you said that you'd rather have code that's easy to follow than fast code? 07:29:27 When you said it feels wrong to generate inefficient code 07:31:11 So did you mean the code of the compiler, or the generated code? 07:31:25 both :-) 07:31:59 I like slower, easier to understand code better than fast, harder to follow code 07:33:13 But nobody except the CPU is going to follow the compiled code. 07:33:51 Until you have to debug it 07:34:21 * crc often looks at the compiled code when debugging the compiler 07:34:27 Debugging the compiler, yes, but that's a one-time task. 07:34:47 And nothing for the "end user". 07:34:53 Unless you add new compiling words later on 07:35:00 Then _they_ have to be debugged 07:35:11 Yep. 07:35:18 But that's life. :) 07:35:47 I've spent nearly three months debugging the compiler in RetroForth 07:36:16 Then you know how much fun it can be. ;) 07:36:17 Mostly due to the addition of compiling words like =if 07:36:19 Yes 07:36:24 It's a LOT of fun 07:36:44 Obscure bugs that arise semi-randomly are always fun to hunt down ;-) 07:36:51 * Robert knows. 07:39:18 * crc is working with RetroForth/Windows and the Allegro game library right now 08:05:00 * crc plays with multiple entry points in forth words 08:06:54 : nip swap : drop [ $ad 1, ] ; | define 'nip' and 'drop' 08:07:05 This could lead to some interesting uses... 08:08:51 Hehe. :) 08:09:17 Can your Forth do that? 08:09:51 Nope. 08:10:16 Add it! ;-) 08:11:23 I think it's overkill. 08:11:44 ASau: why? 08:12:57 It adds complexity to compiler, it adds complexity to the language. 08:13:18 And it adds nothing to code readability. 08:13:23 It's a simple macro: : : create here -5 + h0 ! ; 08:13:47 I'd rather say, using it reduces readability. 08:14:39 It can save a good deal of overhead if used carefully though 08:15:16 Several bytes for "swap"? 08:15:40 You could wind up using it accidentally if you miss a ; off the end of a word. 08:15:43 I don't thing it's that "good deal." 08:16:03 ...think... 08:16:05 My : nip ... example is five bytes smaller 08:16:33 In a large program, using it carefully can save a kilobyte or more 08:17:33 I think, you would save more when you cache TOS and inline that "nip". 08:18:28 You can. But you can save more memory when you do both 08:18:28 Or when you properly utilize Forth's fine granularity. 08:19:06 fine granularity? 08:19:11 I don't think readability is good one to sacrify. 08:19:25 I have no trouble reading it 08:20:12 Well, if you train enough, you might become able to read APL "line noise." 08:20:33 But that's not called readability AFAIK. 08:20:58 I don't think that : nip swap : drop [ $ad 1, ] ; is "line noise" at all 08:22:11 But that's less readable than 08:22:19 : drop [ $ad 1, ] ; 08:22:23 : nip swap drop ; 08:22:35 : nip swap 08:22:40 : drop [ $ad 1, ] ; 08:22:43 ( end of code ) 08:22:57 I normally wouldn't put them on the same line. 08:23:10 IRCP does not provide ACID. 08:23:20 IRCP? ACID? 08:25:04 Internet relay chat protocol. 08:25:14 --- join: madwork (~madgarden@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 08:25:31 Atomicity, consistency, isolation, durability. 08:26:03 hmm 08:26:11 Dobry vecer, madgarden! 08:26:29 I'm studying RDBMS. 08:26:41 Berkeley DB, particularly. 08:27:20 I see 08:27:52 I think, we need it in Forth. 08:31:05 We need something that can make Forth usable. 08:31:21 how is forth not useable? 08:31:49 I mean real life usability. 08:32:24 Minor projects are not enough. 08:32:37 I use a spreadsheet-like app in Forth as the basis of some payroll software for the company I work for 08:32:37 Anyway, when I find something, I report. 08:33:39 :-) 08:33:50 What I'd liked to see is a kind of UNIX shell. 08:34:00 But not the shell itself. 08:34:27 Well, I won't explain it right now. 08:35:04 * crc will look forward to hearing more of your ideas soon 08:35:12 * crc has to go: lunchtime ;-) 08:35:14 --- quit: crc ("" Time for bed... Goodnight!" type cr bye") 08:57:45 Yeah! 08:57:59 PFE has rc-file! 09:22:07 hmm 09:22:18 * tathi wishes he had been paying attention for that multiple-entry-points discussion 09:26:00 from a Forth standpoint, I like it. 09:26:34 However, if you're on a RISC architecture, which doesn't have a full call instruction, it makes for a more complicated implementation. 09:26:57 --- join: swsch (~stefan@p5091FD1E.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 09:30:09 I think, if you can insert additional entry point in a word, 09:30:44 you should better divide that word into two ones. 09:36:40 well, sure. 09:36:47 I like to still write them on separate lines. 09:36:53 --- quit: holden (Remote closed the connection) 09:37:16 I suppose that really it's something that should just be done by an optimizing code generator. 09:37:46 I guess it makes more sense in a colorforth than in a punctuated forth. 09:37:57 Because there you just have an additional red word in the middle. 09:38:01 So it's not so much visual clutter. 09:39:42 A red word between several green ones should break them into two significantly different parts. 09:40:08 Visually they're unrelated. 09:40:14 not necessarily. 09:40:21 There's too sharp border. 09:40:42 it doesn't happen all *that* often, but I've had several cases where it was clearly one word. 09:40:59 and there was just as clearly a "sub-word" that you might also want to call. 09:41:33 but the whole thing was short enough (7-9 words, with no conditionals) that factoring it was NOT helpful from a readability perspective. 09:41:46 I'd prefer to have two different words. 09:42:19 Factoring should help much, when you return to that code in future. 09:42:24 no. 09:42:27 that's what I'm saying. 09:42:33 Factoring made the code significantly LESS READABLE. 09:42:51 Granted, this was colorforth. 09:43:13 And I think I've only ever run across two cases where this was the case. 09:43:33 And if it was part of your forth, I think most people would grossly overuse it. 09:44:13 But there are (IMO) occasions when it's a useful technique. 09:44:19 As a matter of exception, it is good to have possibility. 09:44:46 Yeah, that's all I'm saying. 09:44:55 But do not use it so frequently. 09:45:14 It's certainly not a technique I'd recommend using frequently. 09:46:20 I don't believe we all can find enough cases where we need two entry points of equal rank. 09:46:49 It should be two mutually recursive functions. 09:46:56 Or smth of that kind. 09:48:11 Having several exit points is much more frequent. 09:50:31 Well, I don't believe there's enough cases when even three entry points are necessary. 09:51:19 Yikes. I think three would be too much. 09:51:48 I often have foo and ?foo 09:51:55 ?foo checks a condition, and does foo if true. 09:52:06 And two lines instead of one (or two, if you break line) does practically no matter. 09:52:29 I like to have my definitions on one line. 09:52:34 I've defined "??". 09:52:46 And I have "foo" and "?? foo" 09:53:00 that works. 09:53:03 oh. 09:53:10 usually it's not just checking a simple condition. 09:53:45 but anyway. 09:53:49 I'll quit arguing now. 09:54:22 I've to code that condition somewhere. 09:55:03 : ?this cond ?? this ; 09:55:15 It takes enough place on line. 10:04:26 --- quit: wossname (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:06:08 --- join: wossname (~randolm@rn-v1w5a06.uwaterloo.ca) joined #forth 10:07:33 Hi Asau! 10:10:28 --- join: allefant (elias@L0662P14.dipool.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 10:11:09 my forth slides are done: http://student.cosy.sbg.ac.at/~epschern/CB/slides.pdf :) 10:17:58 Hmm. 10:18:10 Is that all? 10:18:26 That looks to be incomplete. 10:19:08 i know.. only made slides for one half 10:19:18 the other 15 minutes i'll spend without slides 10:19:23 i guess i started too late 10:20:08 i plan to run my forth in that last slide 10:20:17 and then just show some example code 10:53:03 allefant, examples are *good* 10:55:11 --- join: holden (~alex@dsl-62-3-116-153.zen.co.uk) joined #forth 11:04:21 yes - so two advantages: more examples, and less slides to write :) 11:10:37 the audience will probably appreciate it. 11:10:53 Is there a standard byteswap word? >< ? 11:11:04 interactive sessions are not seen that often 11:12:11 madwork, what do you need it for? 11:13:27 Swapping bytes. :P 11:13:50 I've seen >< used in a few places... PFE, CamelForth. I'll just go with that. 11:14:45 serves me right for asking such a question. I once asked a pupil in class, how he'd go about solving a given problem. His answer: 11:15:05 ... systematic 11:15:10 heh. 11:15:17 :-) 11:15:45 Well, in my case, I'm swapping bytes in a word read from eeprom in order to construct a serial number. 11:16:14 This will be used as and ID while logging test results. 11:16:32 W.BYTESWAP just seemed too... crappy. 11:16:33 :) 11:16:39 --- join: Raystm2 (~vircuser@adsl-68-93-115-44.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 11:18:19 I'd probably avoid the problem by doing something like c@ c@ swap ... 11:19:37 Well I'm swapping bytes in the TOS value. 11:20:04 So... 11:20:04 : >< 11:20:04 dup 255 and 8 << 11:20:04 swap 8 >> 255 and or 11:20:04 ; 11:21:48 but what would be the word to swap the high and low 16bit then? 11:22:13 maybe byte>< and word>< 11:22:19 w>< maybe 11:22:26 Haven't needed it. 11:22:37 If I don't need it, i don't define it. :) 11:22:41 heh 12:07:51 What's the correct way to call FIND in ANS Forth? 12:07:57 C" DUP" FIND 12:08:09 ? 12:11:21 --- quit: swsch ("Leaving") 12:11:45 For the life of me, I can't seem to FIND anything under Win32Forth. 12:11:53 Above works fine under MinForth. 12:22:44 Win32Forth eg. WTF? 12:22:44 c" dup" ok. 12:22:44 find ok.. 12:22:44 .s [2] -7619284 0 ok.. 12:23:53 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-160-165-166.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 12:24:00 Sonarman! :) 12:24:09 ih 12:24:16 hello 12:25:40 Hi Sonarman 12:36:11 bortbor olleh 12:37:20 Hrm 12:38:45 hehehe. 12:38:46 bortbor 12:38:49 thats great 12:38:49 haha 12:38:55 robtrob in reverse = bortbor 12:38:59 thats a sweet name :) 12:39:16 borborta. 12:39:28 (is living away) 12:39:32 whats that mean? 12:42:27 hrm 12:50:03 hi Robert 13:30:02 --- quit: allefant ("Client exiting") 13:37:34 --- join: imaginator (~George@georgeps.dsl.xmission.com) joined #forth 14:13:21 --- quit: wossname (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:14:34 --- join: wossname (~randolm@rn-v1w5a06.uwaterloo.ca) joined #forth 14:23:18 --- join: oyd (~Miranda@80.178.221.206.forward.012.net.il) joined #forth 15:43:02 --- join: Topaz (~top@sown-87.ecs.soton.ac.uk) joined #forth 15:48:24 Hi Topaz and oyd 15:48:52 hi robtrob 15:52:35 lo 15:56:44 --- quit: Topaz (Remote closed the connection) 15:57:43 hey 15:59:34 Have you been here before? 16:05:12 I have 16:05:22 Sorry for not remembering you then. :) 16:05:26 Hi, anyway 16:06:07 not too oft. 16:32:28 --- quit: oyd ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org") 19:05:00 --- quit: rastm2_ ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 19:09:08 --- join: OrngeTide (orange@rm-f.net) joined #forth 19:09:31 man. i can't wait till tomorrow. those commodore 64 joystick things will be released. 19:09:43 :) 19:10:52 http://www.asm.qvc.com/Documents/CrossChannelQVC.wmv .. the commecial for the thing. 19:11:11 http://dtvhacking.info/ .. and a site about hacking it. (apparently it has solder pads for keyboard and IEC floppy)_ 19:11:33 Hi 19:42:52 hi Robert 19:43:01 SNIP I say... SNIP!! :) 19:43:27 hi 19:43:48 OrngeTide, ooh! The C64 DTV! Where where?? 19:44:51 madgarden, qvc has an exclusive deal. starting at 12:00a EST they will be selling them. 19:45:01 (friday) 19:45:20 the commecial is kinda cool and retro:) 19:46:11 --- quit: tathi ("bed") 19:49:24 omg 19:49:50 c64 dtv looks like /the/ toy to get 19:51:05 yea. and i've seen screen shots of it booted into basic with a ps/2 keyboard attached... 19:51:19 it's a tweaked c64. it has a 256 color video mode. and 128k of RAM 19:51:19 hrm, forget basic :/ 19:51:37 think of the joys of machine language on that 19:51:42 well the point is. the ASIC on it is essentially a c64. you could totally write a 6502 forth for it. 19:51:46 what mode does it do? 19:51:55 it has it's own special mode. 19:51:58 rather, modes. but i mean 'highest' 19:52:07 320x240 is what it normally runs at. 19:52:21 so, half of memory gone to video 19:52:27 wait, that doesn't calculate 19:52:33 the real c64 can do an 80 column mode if you tweak the video out just right. i dunno about this joystick 19:52:36 or does it? yes :l 19:52:48 320x240 with 8bits per pixel is 64K 19:52:58 there are plenty of real c64s to have 19:53:12 actuall 76800 bytes 19:53:28 yea. but this can fit in a backpack 19:53:38 much cooler, yes 19:53:42 if i hacked it i could take it with me. :P 19:53:57 it's priced to sell, too 19:53:59 some of the games preloaded on it are fun too. 19:54:02 yea. $25 19:54:41 there is that xgamestation for $200 .. which is an 80mhz ubicom SX52 chip with some sprite hardwae and 128k of ram. but $200 is a lot. (does come with a classic atari joystick) 19:55:07 i think i saw that one. looked cool, but you can't beat 25 bux 19:55:22 although for $70 you can get a 16mhz arm with 320x240 backlite lcd. :P 19:55:32 :o 19:55:34 yea. i'm going to order at least one. 19:55:59 the only thing about gameboy advance is that the flash rom carts are really expensive. 19:56:10 also i prefer TV-out over an lcd. 19:56:20 much better, yes 19:56:31 gameboy advance input device leaves something to be desired 19:56:32 it has better hacker appeal because you can share the experience with fellow hackers. 19:56:58 expect a new small demoscene about this one 19:57:21 well CH Ting did a demo at SVFIG last week where he turned a GBA into a digital oscilloscope. so that's some serious inputs. he thinks he'll be able to get 6ghz (i think it's 200mhz right now, which is still really really good) 19:57:38 geeze, but such hardware hackery :/ 19:57:48 yea. if I this dtv64 is as easy to hack as it looks it's totally going to be demoscene time 19:58:11 yea. inputs on gba require you to build a special cart for it. or use it's funny serial port. 19:58:27 i think the nintendo DS does bluetooth. 20:00:01 i don't think that dtv64 has any kind of flash or anything. it wouldn't be hard to hook a PIC to it's floppy port and access MMC cards though. :) 20:00:38 ;p 20:00:39 although it would be cool and retro if you could use those little answering machine/dictation tapes. but that's too much work compared to MMC. (mmc is just a 1-bit SPI) 20:01:44 Blazin' Forth on the DTV would be cool. 20:01:45 i'm terrible with hardware, i'll probably have to try my hand at poking large DATA blocks into memory 20:02:36 well c64 floppy drives are actually just rs232 ports. so worse case is you can just use your PC to emulate a drive. there are a bunch of freeware programs for DOS and Linux to do that. 20:03:11 asm ide for c64.. http://www.djupdal.org/cbm/64asm/ 20:03:13 hrm, qvc.com is selling a lot of these game-controller sized systems 20:03:34 ah, there's the 64 20:04:08 WHere's the qvc page for them? 20:04:36 http://www.qvc.com/asp/frameset.asp?dd=/scripts/drilldown.dll?class=C862!frame=left!level=2!parent=0010%2523AC862&nest=/drilldown/class0003.html?tmp=hp&cont=sn 20:04:37 :l 20:06:20 they don't make mention of any BASIC capability on the page, but the enlarged picture shows some port-looking bits at the bottom 20:06:54 no, just a power switch :) 20:07:22 I've seen screenshots of the BASIC. 20:07:57 hm 20:08:35 Here: http://www.jammingsignal.com/c64/aic/64dtv/page1.htm 20:08:59 --- join: Sonarman_ (~matt@adsl-64-169-92-83.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 20:09:37 Perhaps wire up a serial port to the DTV and plug into a serial-to-USB adapter. 20:10:34 :o 20:10:53 --- quit: Sonarman (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:17:01 wossname, yea. the hackability of the thing is unofficial. 20:17:36 screenshots. http://www.jammingsignal.com/c64/aic/64dtv/page1.htm 20:18:18 madgarden just pasted that link :p 20:19:34 i don't know, i don't want to try to be an early adapter of such hardware if it needs any form of hardware augmentation 20:20:22 It'd be nice to have the serial and PS/2 ports already in place. 20:21:25 heh, somebody could do such mods for $ 20:21:38 don't think it would pay as well as xbox and ps2 mods tho :l 20:22:16 hehe. 20:22:38 those xbox modes have a microcontroller on them much more powerful than a c86 20:22:40 er.. c64 20:23:03 s/modes/mods 20:31:55 usenet posting with info gotten from an interview of the ASIC designer of the thing. http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=nl&lr=&c2coff=1&frame=right&th=dfdb71878523cff8&seekm=10o4tlhnr4dqq57%40corp.supernews.com#link1 20:35:20 Yea really... it's almost suprising that there's not a C64 emulator pack out for PS2/Xbox etc. I know there are other emulators officially released for console systems. 20:36:12 yea. i have a bunch of different emulator packs for xbox and ps2. although around christmastime those direct-to-tv joysticks sell like hotcakes. 20:36:54 bleh, i wonder why there are no 'educational' tv systems 20:37:10 they could package them as small systems rife for programming opportunity and a manual full of small games 20:37:37 i suppose it wouldn't sell 20:37:48 who wants their child to turn into a furry toothed geek :l 20:40:20 wossname, there are. http://www.xgamestation.com/ 20:41:15 but i don't see how they stay in business. even though they cost $200. 20:41:24 i doubt they sell more than one a week 20:41:53 $200 bucks is too high for my budget 20:42:09 i guess there's a lot of decently paid tech geeks who enjoy this as a hobby 20:42:26 Andre Lamothe, ah 20:42:28 >:( 20:42:28 I wouldn't be suprised if retro-styled computer systems make a low-priced comeback. 20:42:39 These DTV joysticks may just be the start. 20:42:55 would be a very happy thing 20:42:59 INDEED. 20:43:14 i don't really like andre lamothe so much, though 20:43:27 he's built his entire career around being in the same place for decades 20:43:35 I almost got hooked up doing a game for him. 20:43:40 really? 20:43:43 Yep. 20:43:50 anything interesting? 20:43:53 https://xess.com/prod034.php3 .. $150 gets you a 200kgate FPGA, 32Mbyte sdram, ps/2 keyboard/mouse port, vga out, and a 1 digit LED :) 20:44:19 Yea, a kung fu action sorta thing. 20:44:26 Here's an old WIP for win32: http://www3.sympatico.ca/ppridham/misc/tmp/SakfuWIP.zip 20:44:28 that fpga could easily hold multiple machineforth cpus. 20:44:35 Going to totally redo this game though. 20:45:06 nice hardware 20:45:26 I just want a 3GHz C64. 20:45:30