00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.11.22 00:13:33 hmm 00:14:03 well arrays are pretty basic so i hope its some super leet chuck moore array technique ;) 00:15:01 well it's like the code ASCII converter.. but seams like folks don't "see" that one right off. I hope we can do something more intuitive. 00:20:40 any suggestions? is there something you'd like to see. maybe the chess code in both ways (orig - which is simple pointer passing - / - new array type instead making half the pieces redundant and making the code even smaller. ) 00:25:33 well he didn't need the array if he kept the alphabet in the same ordering as ASCII 00:25:48 then all he would've needed to do was add the same amount to each letter.. 00:27:11 yeah -- your right about that. guess the concern was packing the code and making sure that the most frequent letters were smallest. 00:39:31 i guess it seems a little weird at first to be dealing with arrays in 51512341234 , 1234141234 , 141423142 , format 00:54:25 hehe 00:55:12 It took me a sec or two to see it but the each two digit number reading from right to left is an Icon :) 01:05:07 futhin; that's numbers read the way the number inventers ment them to be -- refering to the Islamic :) 01:29:11 --- quit: OrngeTide ("bye") 01:33:19 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 01:45:16 --- quit: qFox ("this quit is sponsored by somebody!") 01:47:22 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 01:54:54 Guten Tag, qFox! 01:55:17 --- quit: crc (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:59:57 Morning. :) 02:07:45 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.103.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth 02:14:18 lo 02:20:01 Hey qFox 02:26:25 hey 02:26:29 sup 02:26:40 Just woke up, going to school in a while 02:26:46 good boy :p 02:26:46 Then back to the Java coding... heh 02:26:51 bad boy 02:26:53 :p 02:26:57 :D 02:27:17 Well, it's due wednesday and I spent a couple of days coding the translator. 02:27:33 i have to code java in the last semester of this year too :p 02:28:27 >:) 02:28:34 Well, this is at least fun 02:28:42 its not math. 02:28:42 :p 02:29:01 Even though my only motivation is to piss off the teacher, heh 02:29:09 haha 02:32:45 Gigabytes of sources, wah! 02:33:02 We have to print everything on paper. 02:33:15 I'm looking at 'make NOCLEANDEPENDS=YES clean' results. 02:33:24 ASau: :D 02:34:49 It's working about an hour, and it's produced about 1G of free space. 02:41:06 i'm finally gonna register a domain :p 02:41:23 i noticed qfox.com is available btw, wonder how much they're asking for it 02:41:30 although i really dont like .com anymore 02:41:40 it lost its magic i think 02:44:54 it had a cool website on it a long time ago. pity it was japanese or something :p but it did look pretty good 02:45:04 some company called foxq claimed it :p 02:45:21 * robert pets robos.org 02:47:09 i guess my next thing to fix for my website is the coding pages 02:47:17 Hehe 02:47:25 I'm always a bit late with that 02:47:31 so that i too can boast with my cool scripts :p 02:47:37 : 02:48:22 Ha! It has finished with 1,2G free space. 02:48:27 I like it! 03:22:30 --- join: saon (Ecoder@c-24-129-95-254.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 03:42:15 --- join: madgarden_ (~madgarden@Ottawa-HSE-ppp4084027.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 03:42:16 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:54:12 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 04:10:45 --- quit: saon ("Leaving") 04:29:24 --- quit: Serg_penguin () 04:52:06 hm. i'm gonna cause some havoc in tibia and get my account banned 04:52:13 had enough of the game :) 06:08:02 --- join: crc (crc@0-1pool108-34.nas53.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 06:47:47 * robert returns 06:48:42 Hi robert 06:48:51 Hi crc 07:05:28 * crc works on RetroForth 7.6 07:07:54 * robert works on a text-mode adventure in Java. 07:08:04 (Feel free to puke at me) 07:08:05 text adventures are the shiznit. 07:08:10 --- nick: madwork__ -> madwork 07:08:51 Why Java? 07:09:15 sadomasichism 07:09:29 Because I hate you all, and I want to contrubute to the collapse of society. 07:09:34 (school assignment) 07:09:45 That's why I'm writing a text adventure in the first place.. 07:10:23 write a forth in Java, then use that to write the text adventure ;-) 07:10:37 That was plan A. 07:10:59 But then I found an even funnier way to twist the assignment. 07:11:51 how? 07:12:53 All text in the program is machine-translated from Esperanto run-time. 07:13:17 ick 07:13:35 hahaha having fun in tibia 07:13:41 throwing massive firefields in front of the bank 07:13:43 ppl dying 07:13:45 getting upset 07:13:55 i loot someone, and she's now blaming someone who's begging me for 200gp 07:13:56 hahahhahaha 07:13:59 sorry :p 07:14:29 Heh. 07:27:17 Tibia... I haven't played that for years. 07:27:20 Weird. 07:31:01 --- quit: Raystm2 ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 07:31:32 its so much fun like this 07:31:33 :D 07:31:41 from level 14 to 11, mlevel 22 to 15 now 07:31:45 Is that some kind of game? 07:31:52 and soembody is giving me firebombs and gfb's to kill more :D 07:32:03 but i think that i'll get that autoban after one more now 07:32:24 its funny how you DONT get a count when ppl are dying from your flames when you're dead 07:32:25 hehe 07:35:39 Poor qFoxö 07:36:34 haha some guy wants me to pk some afkers now :D 07:36:55 i'll post some pics soon :D 07:37:20 btw, gfx of tibia are worse then diablo or uo ;) 07:42:52 Pong 4-ever. 07:46:36 hehe 07:48:24 --- quit: crc ("Time for bed... Goodnight!") 07:53:29 Yea, I'm really suprised the graphics haven't been updated. 07:54:52 I play 3d pong... adds shadows to the paddles and ball 07:56:37 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 08:04:03 :) 08:05:01 (: 08:07:16 )( 08:09:51 :: 08:11:03 duza zaba 08:14:10 we panic in a pew 09:14:35 --- join: arke_ (apache@11.198.216.81.dre.siw.siwnet.net) joined #forth 09:15:01 hi 09:15:10 KAMIKAZE 09:15:13 --- quit: robert ("You die") 09:15:50 Hmm. 09:16:02 Robert, what have you done? 09:17:04 lol\ 09:17:39 --- quit: arke_ (Client Quit) 09:17:57 --- join: arke_ (apache@11.198.216.81.dre.siw.siwnet.net) joined #forth 09:19:56 --- join: allefant (elias@L0664P09.dipool.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 09:21:12 Guten Abend, allefant! 09:21:16 Wie geht's? 09:23:31 guten abend allefant und Asau 09:24:54 guten Abend, und danke, gut :) 09:25:16 Wie ist das Wetter da? 09:25:32 how serious should i take the channel rules in the topic? 09:25:48 Es schneite am Sonnabend hier. 09:26:18 ziemlich kalt. schnee war hier letzte woche, hat hetzt so 5-10 grad 09:26:24 jetzt 09:26:48 Hmm. Es ist warm. 09:26:58 nicht fÃ¼r mich 09:27:05 hÃ¤tte lieber 25 grad 09:27:36 Bitte, schreibe ohne Umlaut. 09:28:10 Ich habe russische Buchstaben an diesen Plaetze. 09:28:28 ich hab xchat auf UTF8 eingestellt 09:28:52 "Plain console" hier. 09:29:15 wuerde in meinem fall nichts aendern, die console ist auch UTF8 09:29:44 Meine ist nicht. 09:29:49 KOI8. 09:30:47 warum nicht unicode? 09:30:50 CGI:IRC macht bei umlauten auch nicht mit :) 09:32:29 Wir haben unsere Standards in Russland. 09:32:35 hey, didn't you read the rules? 09:33:14 Herkamire, anyway it's silent here. 09:33:34 "Another way" is the same way. 09:39:49 read the rules? 09:39:53 wtf? 09:40:11 i really dont hope you're gonna tell me there are channel"rules" now 09:40:51 get over it 09:40:57 anyways you can see the rules on joining the channel 09:41:06 --- part: qFox left #forth 09:41:06 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 09:41:25 ehm. well, if its spammed in another chan 09:41:28 :\ 09:42:31 hmm? that must be a client issue 09:42:59 don't rules contradict the principle of forth? 09:43:02 nah its just echoing notices fucked up 09:43:23 he sees chanserv on a different chan and echoos it in the first open window, #forth isnt the first open window with chanserv... 09:44:55 allefant: the rules aren't new, i just made them written 09:52:06 Dispute about rules, you lawyers! 09:53:18 ASau: is that a troll? :) 09:54:48 nm 10:06:45 --- join: Robert (~pink@c-675a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 10:08:50 Robert: hey asshole 10:09:01 Fuck you. Why the hostility? 10:09:04 Robert: your kamikaze made CGI:IRC go ballistic. 10:09:05 I died. 10:09:07 :) 10:10:11 Eh? 10:10:13 --- quit: arke_ ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") 10:24:05 Robert: i imagine he's just trying to be funny, due to the smiley 10:24:20 He failed. 10:24:55 What rules? 10:25:52 allefant, this word rocks, whatever it means: "schnee". 10:25:53 :) 10:26:17 heh 10:26:45 you would pronounce it: shna 10:26:59 and it means snow :) 10:29:37 does ( normally support multiple lines? 10:30:53 allefant: can be either way 10:32:07 looks like ANS says under file access words that ( is extended to support multiple lines when found in files 10:32:15 Traditionally, it supports multiple lines on single screen. 10:32:30 madwork: joining the channel tells you the rules.. they're simple "don't troll, don't spam, and speak english" 10:33:00 you should rename yourself to bush. 10:33:34 yes, multiple lines make more sense. single line just was easier with my F83 derived TIB model 10:35:15 I'm not real big on forth parsing being line-based 10:37:56 in my case, i could just get rid of any input buffer, and make PARSE directly read, i guess 10:38:21 wouldn't have >IN anymore then though 10:38:46 dunno what's right for you. 10:38:55 I generally think of of my parsing one character at a time 10:54:36 : ( key [char] ) =; ( ; immediate 10:55:41 or, for ans, something like: : ( key [char] ) = if recurse then ; immediate 10:56:37 need to make it tail-recurse 10:57:00 ANS has INPUT-SOURCE and >IN and TIB and so on 10:57:22 so KEY is only used somewhere in the parser 10:58:39 yeah, I never really figured out ANS input handling 10:59:38 it's different depending where the input is coming from 10:59:48 it always seemed silly to me to scan through files for newlines 11:00:02 true, i'll change mine 11:00:13 unless it's the terminator, like for \ but then ou shouldn't be saving it as you go 11:00:41 perhaps line-based stuff makes sense for screens, since it's broken into fixed-length lines. 11:26:37 Herkamire: =; ? 11:26:43 thats cool! 11:27:00 like jump if equal to zero in forthish way.. awesome 11:27:02 =; is equivilent to: = if exit then 11:27:07 we're coming closer to assembly! :D 11:27:29 forth is becoming more and more low level ;) 11:27:38 heh, I think the only standard control flow words I use are: if then ; 11:27:55 you don't use for next? 11:28:02 or that doesn't count 11:28:15 I do use for/next, but it does it n times, not n+1 times or whatever the stupid standard says 11:28:16 i guess for next falls into the category of looping words 11:28:43 and while I'm being technical, I suppose my ; isn't completely standard either 11:28:48 the only standard is chuck moore's standard, but the non-backwards compatibliity standard always overrides his standard 11:29:01 and innovation overrides it all 11:29:14 hmm... well, when I say "the stupid standard" I mean ANS 11:29:49 i don't care about ANS 11:30:15 I have to say my favorite herkforth word is 0; which is equivilent to: dup 0= if drop exit then 11:30:33 its a cool idea to add ;-type words 11:30:38 0; =; etc 11:30:41 thats an awesome idea 11:31:07 yeah, I have: 0; 0=; (which drops either way) <; <=; >; >=; <>; if; 11:31:20 >:D 11:31:43 0; is the special case which only drops if tos is 0 11:33:21 are you still using a destructive if? 11:33:26 yeah 11:33:34 why? 11:33:55 never tried it non-descructive 11:34:17 haven't been able to see where it would be useful 11:34:53 I think generally I want the value within the if/then or after, but usually not both, so either way there's going to have to be a drop and/or dup 11:35:32 I tried a non-destructive IF for a while... 11:35:46 i think it reduces the code a little bit, like the asm code for if would be reduced by one mnemonic perhaps, and plus, the whole "dup if" is just so common 11:35:49 tathi: did you find much use for it? 11:35:50 I came to the conclusion that it was about 50/50 which way I wanted it. 11:36:05 And...I'm pretty sure that I've seen the same thing from Chuck somewhere. 11:36:19 1xforth paper, yeh 11:36:19 yeah chuck mentions its 50/50 11:36:29 so it might be nice to have both 11:36:40 Though I gather non-destructive is simpler in hardware... ? 11:36:43 wouldn't coding a non-destructive IF reduce the asm code a little bit? 11:36:59 cuz you just leave the TOS alone 11:37:01 and just test on it 11:37:01 yeah, on PPC certainly. 11:37:23 so there you go, non-destructive IF is better overall. and ya get rid of the annoying "dup if" 11:37:26 oh wow. I just grepped for "dup if " in my herkforth sources, and only found it twice 11:37:38 futhin: you learn to work around it. 11:37:44 Herkamire: how about dup if ? 11:38:50 tathi: was just saying 'annoying' for the sake of injecting emotion into the argument heh 11:39:16 futhin: I figured :) 11:39:28 anyone here play with the latest isforth? 11:39:35 it is broken for me 11:39:36 futhin: 5. but every one works better destructive 11:39:50 in every case is returning a flag 11:40:04 yeah 11:40:47 I don't see how non-destructive IF helps with "dup ... if" 11:41:38 I440r I440r_ yo i load up isforth and type some number like 8888 and it doesn't recognize it 11:42:01 ok 11:42:02 8888 8888 ? 11:42:10 futhin: 1.15b ? 11:42:15 tathi: yes 11:42:24 weird. 11:42:42 I've used it on a couple of other people's boxen 11:42:45 I'm using 1.15b 11:42:53 tathi: the kernel.com works, but after extending it, it doesn't recognize the big numbers.. 11:43:15 I think what would be more useful is an IF that would drop only if TOS was 0 11:43:34 IMO, the problem is there's a convention that forth words eat their arguments. 11:43:42 Herkamire: good idea 11:43:54 but... looking at my code 11:43:56 If you start breaking that, then you have to remember which words do, and which words don't. 11:44:02 I use if on 23 lines 11:44:22 2 times I have " dup if " 11:44:46 both of which I only want the value within the if. so it's " dup if ... then drop " 11:45:41 oh, they are both " dup if ... exit then drop " 11:46:17 Herkamire: do you have a ; that you could use in that case? 11:47:43 err...never mind. 11:48:08 I asume you mean without the "..." above 11:48:14 I was thinking about making one 11:48:37 wow, looks like I did 11:48:40 named it ?; 11:48:44 and I even used it :) 11:49:09 equivilent to " dup if exit then drop " 11:49:35 yah, exactly. 11:50:16 you could make it look forward and extract ... from the buffer ;) 11:50:18 ?; ... 11:50:22 I just looked for the definition of 0; and looked near there :) 11:50:56 futhin: huh? 11:51:00 extract what? 11:51:18 futhin: that sort of thing tends to lead to complications though... 11:51:47 yeah, I don't read ahead in herkforth 11:52:56 there are no parsing words 11:53:10 nice 11:53:19 so you don't have ' 11:53:34 how do you get the xt of a word? 11:53:53 oh wait 11:54:03 isn't IF a parsing word? parses for THEN? 11:54:21 and you just mentioned [char] ? 11:54:57 no 11:54:58 futhin: where'd you get the idea IF is a parsing word? 11:55:00 IF is never a parsing word 11:55:22 and you claim to be a forth coder...shame on you :P 11:55:37 if is often defined like so: : if here 0 , ; immediate 11:56:07 I have a color for ' 11:57:01 so you can do the same sort of stuff, but arguments are explicit, and before their operators 11:58:45 parsing words are often confusing and sometimes misleading 12:00:14 while this is perfectly clear if you know what CONSTANT does... 60 constant usachz 12:00:47 if you don't... then you'll be wondering what usachz does 12:02:47 in herkforth you don't have to know all the parsing words to know what is being called 12:05:26 in herkforth you would see: 8 60 10usachz 8constant 12:06:31 all you have to know is the 6 colors 12:06:42 and you can look at any code and know what is being compiled, called, defined etc 12:07:15 well, actually: 8 60 10usachz 8set-constant 12:14:40 does it automatically detect parsing words? 12:14:52 or do you have to manually change the type of word with a word like immediate? 12:15:01 (except in this case to indicate parsing...) 12:15:16 and how do you handle words that parse double/more? 12:16:16 or other type of parsing words like ." c" s" etc, the ones that use PARSE 12:16:43 (ok, i guess constant parses to a space...) 12:46:33 --- join: saon (~Ecoder@c-24-129-95-254.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 12:51:41 --- quit: allefant ("Client exiting") 12:55:13 qFox: there is no parsing 12:55:48 oh, yeah, the editor knows about immediates, and put's it in the execute color for the compiler 12:56:02 any word that starts with , is treated that way 12:56:19 hm. does it "precompile" ? 12:56:35 like if i do : foo ; immediate : bar foo ; 12:56:48 will foo be colored like immediate? or ... default? 12:57:18 : ,foo ; : bar foo ; 12:57:21 the problem i encountered myself was stuff like : [ postpone ] ; 12:57:33 the compiler will see : bar [ ,foo ,; 12:59:26 qFox: what's that do? 12:59:30 maybe i'll do it so that postpone will be colored like an immediate, and underlined as a parsing word, including the word it parses 12:59:48 oh i always define [ as state flipping 12:59:52 (as it should imo?) 12:59:56 so [ is the same as ] 13:00:15 looks like you're defining it as "postpon ]" 13:00:30 : ] state @ 1 xor state ! ; immediate : [ postpone ] ; immediate 13:00:33 or something 13:00:58 ahh 13:01:00 postpone parses the next word, looks it up, and compiles it... 13:01:16 the cool thing about my immediate-prefix thing 13:01:18 so it wont be executed at compile time even if its an immediate (its useless otherwise) 13:01:33 is you don't need [compile] 13:01:44 eg you could do : ,[ ,] ; 13:02:04 yeah, but that sounds dangerously alot like the denotation method used in ciforth 13:02:12 it worked great, but i hated it like hell 13:02:49 It's probably not much like that 13:02:59 --- join: Aurinto (TheBlueWiz@modem-005.nyc-tc03a.FCC.NET) joined #forth 13:03:35 with denotations, ' first looks for the entire word, then looks if any word in the denotation dictionary matches the begin of the word, and executes (and parses up to there) if it does 13:03:51 yeah 13:03:54 herkforth doesn't do that crap 13:04:02 ok. sounded like it did 13:04:03 :) 13:04:24 it works great though. i mean, he had it embedded very far, including number parsing etc 13:04:39 i just couldnt work with it :) 13:04:48 the only thing it does, is when you enter a word at the keyboard in the editor in the compile color (green) it searches first for an immediate word, then for a normal word 13:04:58 oh ok, so its just for hte editor 13:05:04 if it finds the immediate version, it inserts it into the source in execute color 13:05:14 --- nick: Aurinto -> TheBlueWizard 13:05:21 hm. i would kinda hate being retricted to such a word format "just" for the editor 13:05:29 as a forther that is. 13:05:45 i wouldnt really mind if certain type of words had a certain prefix myself :\ 13:05:49 ohwell 13:06:55 --- quit: TheBlueWizard (Client Quit) 13:07:53 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@modem-005.nyc-tc03a.FCC.NET) joined #forth 13:08:18 yeah, I could see the naming convention could bother some people 13:08:19 i had this great idea for an editor, but discovered there was quite some more to it then just knowing the input/output schematics for a word while parsing 13:08:37 words like my [ example would bork it up 13:08:46 and words like PARSE would too 13:09:08 thing is, if you're using someone elses code, you're going to have to be willing to tollerate their naming conventions, or change the names of all sorts of stuff. 13:09:24 yeah 13:09:29 true 13:09:37 it's really easy to rename words in herkforth. 13:09:47 and it would be pretty easy to change the immediate-prefix 13:11:11 especially to another one-character prefix, then it would be a pinch 13:11:41 :) 13:11:43 come to think of it, it wouldn't be hard to write something that would search the dictionary and alter all the prefixes 13:12:50 anyway, the idea is that instead of immediate being a dictionary flag, it's the begining of the name 13:13:05 I like having the convention anyway (even if it didn't do anything) 13:18:22 --- join: arke_ (apache@11.198.216.81.dre.siw.siwnet.net) joined #forth 13:18:33 :p 13:22:49 Herkamire> well, i've come to the conclusion that forth as whatshisname created it, is _the_ main language, and any other forth are sub-forths 13:22:56 each with their own rules and things 13:23:45 including ans and fig 13:23:50 a slightly provocative statement, considering that Chuck Moore created several flavors of Forth in his life 13:23:55 yeah, I think of forth as a sort of general family of ideas 13:24:44 true, but hm, arent there any articles about what the "real" forth should "look" like? 13:25:45 or perhaps his first final version of forth 13:25:48 or... whatver :) 13:25:59 either way, any forth "we" create, isnt that... 13:26:04 oh there's plenty of opinions about what forth "should" be 13:26:15 they don't tend to agree with eathother though 13:26:49 :) 13:26:53 i'm off to bed 13:26:54 later 13:26:57 --- quit: qFox ("this quit is sponsored by somebody!") 13:27:41 forth != language 13:27:49 forth = philosphy and an abused name :) 13:28:43 * Robert runs back and forth, screaming "DUP! DUP! SWAP!" 13:32:29 gotta go...bye all 13:32:41 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 13:33:21 --- quit: arke_ ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") 13:38:26 --- join: OrngeTide (orange@rm-f.net) joined #forth 13:38:28 "dup swap" makes me think of rotating the square piece in tetris 13:38:52 dup swap swap swap swap drop 13:39:43 i keep swap'ing and nothing is happening! :) 13:43:33 01,00The first word sequence I ever tested when developing Forthy was SWAP DROP DUP 13:45:10 --- join: abbi (~ABleichne@p508B6C8F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 13:45:27 --- join: eskimo (~nr@219.83.19.186) joined #forth 13:47:05 --- quit: saon ("food time fooles!") 13:47:38 Eh. 13:52:10 --- part: abbi left #forth 13:57:22 --- join: Raystm2 (~vircuser@adsl-68-93-123-183.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 13:58:03 Hey Ray 13:58:37 Hey Ray, whaddya say, eh? 13:58:56 madwork: Are you constantly high? 13:59:50 No, but I probably should be. 14:05:01 I say hey. How ya'll doing? 14:05:44 building my homenet :) 14:06:00 I'm at work. 14:06:32 * Robert is doing homework. Java text adventure! 14:06:42 coo and coo 14:07:09 text adventures rock, Robert. 14:07:16 I want to make another one too. 14:07:42 I miss the old C64 days when I made a few of 'em. 14:07:55 Doing the standard 2-word parser? 14:08:17 Of course not. 14:08:29 How is THAT supposed to demonstrate how bloated Java is? 14:08:50 No sir, I'm doing runtime translation of natural languages, using regexps wherever I can, and so on. 14:09:22 Heh. 14:09:42 It will be interesting to see a text adventure maxing out your CPU usage. 14:09:46 Yep. 14:10:18 And Roedy Green's tips on how to write unmaintainable code gave me some ideas. 14:10:26 Internally, the game works with Esperanto. 14:10:40 Which is translated every time some output is needed. 14:11:11