00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.11.19
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00:08:40 <ASau> Dobre jitro!
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00:57:19 * crc wonders what OS to port retroforth to next...
00:59:48 <warp0b00> fuck
00:59:56 <warp0b00> im trying to explain range encoders to someone
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01:10:32 <ASau> Dobry den, crc!
01:11:12 <ASau> ayrnieu, if you're interested in SP-Forth you should ask the developers.
01:11:32 <ASau> They know English and are able to help you.
01:11:49 <crc> Hi ASau
01:11:59 <ASau> I think they will definitely help you, if you ask them.
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01:22:37 <ASau> Do you have native BSD version or still libc?
01:24:02 <crc> There's a native freebsd version already
01:24:36 <crc> NetBSD and OpenBSD will come after I get shell accounts on systems running them, or get around to downloading+installing them :-)
01:35:55 <ASau> What about writing (a simplistic) port?
01:36:17 <crc> for what OS though?
01:36:39 <ASau> I mean ports(7).
01:36:45 <crc> Hmm
01:37:36 <ASau> That's a common requirements for all BSDs.
01:37:45 <ASau> ...requirement
01:38:38 <ASau> I know several persons that don't consider tools that do not come from portage system.
01:38:55 <crc> I'll try to write an actual port for the 7.6 release
01:39:25 <crc> ASau: why wouldn't they consider tools that aren't part of the port system?
01:40:26 <ASau> Well, I'll try to argue like them.
01:40:50 <crc> ok
01:41:11 <ASau> When you install software through common package management system, you get consistent system.
01:41:32 <ASau> If you want to change something, you use the same thing.
01:42:01 <ASau> Using this PMS also assures you don't mess things up.
01:43:27 <crc> good points, but I wouldn't even attempt to package RetroForth for every PMS
01:43:33 <ASau> And when you have desktop installation, you utilize too much software to keep all stuff in memory.
01:43:50 <crc> I don't understand that
01:43:52 <ASau> For BSDs PMS is ports(7).
01:44:03 * crc is reading the man page
01:44:20 * crc is also reading the ports sections in the handbook
01:47:44 <crc> ASau: if they won't use tools that aren't part of the ports system, they'd never be able to build RF from source anyway
01:48:51 <crc> I use the FASM assembler, which doesn't even run on FreeBSD without Linux emulation or use of libc (and it's updated too often for me to do an actual port of it)
01:49:44 <ASau> You can port the single version, requiring Linux emulation etc.
01:50:22 <ASau> Well, if I find time, probably I'll do this.
01:50:37 * crc sighs. This looks like it'll require some changes to rdev (my top-level build scripts)
01:53:56 <ASau> Write a fake Makefile.
01:54:32 <crc> ?
01:55:23 <ASau> Do you use absolute file names?
01:55:38 <crc> ?
01:56:06 <crc> I do a lot of "cd source && ..." stuff
01:56:25 <ASau> Makefile:
01:56:30 <ASau> all:
01:56:42 <ASau>   ./sh this.script
01:56:44 <ASau> <EOF>
01:57:02 <ASau> Well, not "./sh".
01:57:05 <ASau> "sh"
01:58:24 <crc> hmm
01:58:38 * crc is quite confused now
01:59:29 <ASau> If you do not use make(1) use sh(1).
01:59:49 <ASau> Just write build scripts the way ports(7) want them.
02:00:21 <ASau> You may also write Makefile in addition to your earlier scripts.
02:01:15 <crc> My top level scripts are used to build all of the ports I have; the ports each have a simple makefile
02:10:54 * crc hates package systems
02:14:35 <crc> On FreeBSD and/or Linux, where should the retroforth binary be installed to?
02:26:01 <ASau> On FreeBSD you should install your binaries to /usr/local/bin
02:26:48 <crc> and on Linux?
02:30:20 <fridge> /proc/kmem
02:30:22 <ASau> Do the same. It won't be worse.
02:30:26 <crc> ok
02:30:36 <crc> fridge: I won't install it there...
02:31:01 <fridge> when I'm feeling tidy
02:31:49 * crc is gathering ideas for RetroForth 7.6
02:38:44 <crc> Once I have regular access to GCC 3.x, I should be able to complete the L4 port easily enough
02:44:12 <ASau> FreeBSD 5.3 use GCC 3.4.
02:44:22 <ASau> 5.2.1 use GCC 3.3.3
02:44:34 <crc> I have FreeBSD 5.2.1, but I seldom boot it
02:44:59 <ASau> Then you should have GCC 3.3.3
02:45:01 <crc> That will change in a couple of months, if I can get it to work with my network card
02:45:55 <crc> It doesn't run very well on this laptop :-(
02:46:44 <crc> I should try to get 5.3; maybe it'll work better for me
02:47:07 <ASau> Linux must have used GCC 3.4 already.
02:47:41 <crc> Most distros have 3.3 or 3.4 now; the ones I have still use 2.95 though
02:47:47 <ASau> It's strange you don't have it.
02:48:46 <crc> not really
02:49:02 <ASau> Then why not to build it?
02:49:09 <crc> I only have dialup; it takes too long to download the sources
02:49:32 <ASau> CD-R(W)?
02:49:37 <crc> ?
02:50:05 <crc> I only have a normal CD-ROM drive :-(
02:50:12 <ASau> Why not find another man at your location that has better connection or has already necessary sources?
02:50:49 <crc> I'm the only person I know in this area that uses non-Windows OSes
02:51:06 <crc> And I don't have regular access to a high-speed connection yet
02:51:59 <crc> And those who have high-speed connections (e.g., the company I'm starting to work for) don't have CD-R(W) drives
02:52:16 * crc doesn't know many people here
02:53:19 <ASau> 20 floppies?
02:53:26 <ASau> HDD?
02:53:52 <crc> I don't have a working floppy drive in this box and no external hard drive
02:54:13 <ASau> Null modem cable?
02:54:18 <crc> Nope
02:54:20 <ASau> Ehh.
02:54:30 <ASau> Cross ethernet?
02:55:18 <crc> Not yet (lack of $$$)
02:55:49 * crc has no luck here.
03:01:08 <swsch_> hi crc and ASau, I just started to read this conversation ...
03:01:25 <crc> Hi swsch_
03:02:25 <swsch_> Just for the record, a fixed installed official rf is not the ultimate
03:02:36 <crc> I know
03:02:38 <swsch_> just this week, for example:
03:03:02 <swsch_> I hacked my retroweb extensions into something allowing me to create XSL-FO files
03:03:10 <swsch_> from a more compact description.
03:03:13 <crc> cool
03:03:41 <swsch_> I copied the fo.rf into the source/blocks file, updated the makefile and voila,
03:03:54 <swsch_> there was a rwfo executable weighing in at 6 kB
03:04:06 <crc> :-)
03:04:41 <swsch_> wrapped it in a shell script, and that's all it took.
03:05:31 * crc is starting to plan RetroForth 7.6
03:05:43 <swsch_> so I'm all for providing this *lean* tool in a *lean* tarball
03:05:58 <swsch_> you might even s/lean/minimalistic/
03:06:26 <crc> is the current tarball lean/minimalistic enough?
03:06:52 <swsch_> what could you leave out without losing something?
03:07:01 <crc> Writing an actual port(7) for FreeBSD would be valuable as a learning experience for me
03:07:13 <crc> The notebook formatted manual could be removed...
03:07:49 <swsch_> ah yes. I'm continuously overlooking the notebook
03:08:06 <crc> I use the notebook tool all the time :-)
03:08:47 <crc> but no one else seems to, so I'll just be including the ascii format in the future
03:08:49 <swsch_> stop this, use retroforth instead .-D
03:09:20 <crc> swsch_: once I can get a decent editor written in RetroForth I will use it instead :-)
03:09:59 <swsch_> to be honest, a rf-editor will have a hard standing here ... I'm a long time vi(m) user.
03:10:22 <crc> My planned editor was inspired by VI :-)
03:10:47 <swsch_> good for you :-)
03:10:49 <crc> It's a port of kc5tja's VIBE editor (my port is still only about half done though)
03:11:28 <swsch_> still I'm using more of the "arcane" features lately, so switching away would need very strong arguments ...
03:11:54 <swsch_> first thing I do at client sites is install gvim on their windows boxes. 
03:11:54 <crc> My main motivation is to use it in the native version of retroforth
03:12:25 <crc> You can't run vi without installing it?
03:12:29 <swsch_> of course ... that's one of the strong arguments ... if you don't have an OS supporting vim
03:12:53 <swsch_> I could just unpack it, but I'm always sneaking in the context menu "Edit with Vim"
03:13:02 <swsch_> unnoticed for normal users, handy for me
03:14:06 <swsch_> I remember removing the password protection from an access database with vim ... open the .mdb file, view as hex, change the necessary byte, convert it back and save  it :-)
03:14:45 <crc> :-)
03:14:56 <swsch_> oops ... gotta run and collect children from kindergarten and school bus stop
03:15:00 <crc> ok
03:15:01 <crc> ttyl
03:15:05 <swsch_> bye
03:15:17 <crc> bye
03:16:12 <ASau> First thing I do after installation is:
03:16:26 <ASau> ln -sf `which vi` `which ed`
03:16:47 <ASau> Ehh.
03:16:52 <ASau> ln -sf `which ed` `which vi`
03:17:13 <crc> ???
03:17:25 <ASau> I hate vi.
03:17:31 <crc> ok
03:17:48 * crc is starting to like it; mainly because of the VIBE editor
03:18:22 <ASau> Even nano is much better.
03:18:36 <crc> I like nano
03:19:17 <ASau> My editor of choice is Emacs.
03:19:35 * crc and tcn codeveloped a simplified version of nano called TE once
03:19:44 <crc> emacs is too slow for my liking
03:20:12 <ASau> Jed is the substitute.
03:20:25 <crc> uemacs isn't too bad though
03:20:35 <crc> I've never used jed
03:20:46 <ASau> I've never tried uemacs.
03:22:24 <crc> It's small and fast
03:22:38 <crc> Not as flexible as GNU emacs though
03:22:45 <ASau> I've found it in ports.
03:24:00 * crc also wonders if he should release an updated version of RetroLisp sometime...
03:24:23 <ASau> BTW
03:24:37 <ASau> I know what OS you should consider to port RF to.
03:24:41 <crc> what?
03:24:46 <ASau> PalmOS.
03:24:55 <crc> I'm considering that
03:25:04 <crc> I still need to learn ARM assembly though
04:25:49 <fridge> I'll install the bins into /usr/local/depot
04:25:56 <fridge> and create symlinks
04:26:32 <crc> what's /usr/local/depot ?
04:38:59 <ASau> fridge, it should go into /usr/local/share/your-name
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05:11:25 <fridge> oh I see
05:11:35 <fridge> crc, it is a repository for binary packages
05:12:12 <warp0b00> sup forthers
05:12:14 <fridge> which I then use 'stow' to manage linking into /usr/local/bin, etc
05:12:52 <fridge> on systems where I have to manage >3-4 packages, say
05:13:39 <crc> ah, ok
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05:41:02 <fridge> ASau: hmm, most of my personal binaries on shared systems go into ~/local
05:46:47 <ASau> My personal too.
05:47:22 <ASau> I answered in assumption you install software system-wide.
05:48:17 <warp0b00> i put them in ~/lib
05:48:26 <fridge> ASau: is that a common practice?
05:48:27 <warp0b00> and my profile/bashrc fixes my libpath
05:49:23 <ASau> If it's not, it should be.
05:49:56 <fridge> I've not heard of it before, we mount a NFS /share where every man and his dog is able to install or overwrite others software at will, it works well, except for when libraries between different workstation versions clash
05:50:47 <ASau> man hier
05:51:52 <ASau> That's the document desribing the layout in UNIX.
05:52:08 <ASau> BSD particularly.
05:52:09 <warp0b00> oh shit
05:52:12 <warp0b00> theres a manpage for that
05:52:13 <warp0b00> wtf
05:52:17 <fridge> hah
05:52:29 <fridge> I only read manpages when something obviously doesn't work
05:55:16 <ASau> warpzero, there're man pages almost for everything.
05:56:11 <ASau> There's no man pages only for those tools, that do not work.
05:56:14 <ASau> As usual.
05:57:06 <warp0b00> there aren't any man pages for c++
05:57:44 <fridge> ASau: heh
05:57:53 <fridge> the worst system I've seen in terms of man pages is OSX
05:58:19 <fridge> very little is documented correctly, quite a lot is documented incorrectly
05:58:28 <robert> Mmm.... fun.
06:00:38 <ASau> Hmm.
06:00:58 <ASau> It looks architecture dependent files should not go to /usr/local/share.
06:01:17 <ASau> Well, then /var/your-name/bin.
06:01:19 <ASau> Like qmail.
06:02:32 <fridge> noooo
06:02:35 <fridge> not like qmail!
06:07:37 * fridge compares 'man 7 hier' between his debian system and his BSD system.
06:12:19 <robert> Mmm... now the winter is here for real.
06:12:30 <robert> -5C outside, sun sets at 3pm, and lots of snow!
06:13:30 <fridge> 3pm!
06:14:27 <robert> In a month it will be dark at 3pm...
06:26:13 * fridge rememori
06:27:02 <fridge> via logxas en Svedion
06:27:17 <robert> Jes, mi logxas en Svedio.
06:28:54 * robert debugas kaj rabigxas ;)
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06:54:54 <fridge> robert: debugas?
06:55:08 <robert> Bastardization of "debugs".
06:55:43 <robert> Like 73% of all statistics, I made that up.
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06:59:43 <fridge> you're debugging and robbing?
06:59:54 <robert> fridge: Eh....try again.
07:00:34 <robert> Or perhaps I'm the one supposed to do that.
07:00:54 <robert> frenezigas* :)
07:01:07 * robert needs to improve his dictionary skills.
07:04:47 <fridge> I need an en-eo dict server
07:04:54 <robert> Hehe
07:05:10 <robert> I use a little perl script that interfaces some online dictionary
07:06:40 <fridge> which dictionary is the most comprehensive?
07:07:19 <robert> Don't know, the best one I've found so far (which I use when the script won't return anything) is the one at lernu.net
07:08:35 <robert> Hmm... Esperanto question of the day: "Cxu vi havas rabion?"
07:17:20 <allefant> sounds Spanish
07:17:43 <allefant> except Cxu.. can't pronounce that
07:19:10 <robert> Cx is the C-with-a-hat (^) character.
07:19:15 <robert> Pronounced like ch
07:20:09 <allefant> ah
07:21:41 <fridge> A system, method and computer-readable medium support the use of a single 
07:21:41 <fridge>              operator that allows a comparison of two variables to determine if the two 
07:21:44 <fridge>              variables point to the same location in memory.
07:22:10 <robert> Hm?
07:22:25 <fridge> can someone do that in forth?
07:23:03 <robert> Already been done, the word is called =
07:25:16 <fridge> heh.
07:32:34 <robert> http://perso.wanadoo.fr/la-vortaro/index.html
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07:32:41 <robert> This must be the ugliest site ever.
07:33:04 <fridge> esperanto.org.au is pretty bad.
07:34:15 <robert> Not THAT bad.
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07:41:08 <retrobot2> RetroForth Bot -- Type retrobot2: <forth code here>
07:41:30 <allefant> retrobot2: words
07:41:31 <retrobot2> allefant: x1 .version version# $, ." " s0 | zt-free zt-make words >pad clear del tab space cr << 0; fill alias execute ' columns lines 2swap 2over chars char+ cells cell+ align allot pad */ /mod octal binary decimal hex +! 2drop 2dup tuck over -rot rot here constant variable, variable mod / - negate * + c! c@ ! @ not >> xor or and nip dup drop swap base d0 h0 last cmove reset parse type . macro forth : compile ] (create) create 3, 2, 1, , eval >number find mfind s
07:42:35 <robert> retrobot2: : 1 0 begin 0 over ! 4 + again ; 1 2 + .
07:42:36 <retrobot2> robert: begin?  2 
07:42:46 <robert> Hrm. He didn't fall for that.
07:47:07 <ASau> Robert, RF uses tail-recursion for cycling, IIRC.
07:47:42 <robert> What is the word to recurse?
07:48:01 <ASau> retrobot2: : 1 0  0 over ! 4 + 1 ;
07:48:02 <retrobot2> ASau: begin?  2 
07:48:16 <ASau> retrobot2: : 1 0   0 over ! 4 + 1 ; 1 2 +
07:48:17 <retrobot2> ASau: begin?  2 
07:49:00 <robert> Heh.
07:49:04 <ASau> Hmm.
07:49:09 <robert> Buggy, it seems.
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07:52:19 <robert> Heh, hi Teratogen 
07:52:33 <robert> Long time no Forth.
07:52:38 <Teratogen> hi hi
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09:30:19 <madwork> 01,9901New things are scary... like leaving home for the first time, or broccoli.01,99
09:33:05 <arke_> broccoli, mmmh, good
09:47:33 <robert> Heh.
09:47:57 <robert> A veggie tricked me into eating that once, I don't like it.
09:48:56 <arke_> robert: Hi. :)
09:49:10 <arke_> robert: gotten something ssh wise figured out?
09:49:15 <robert> Nope.
09:49:25 <robert> I'm still trying to debug the stupid Forth...
09:49:29 * robert is going insane
09:49:53 <arke_> too late.
09:53:16 <robert> Little broccoli men, they're everywhere, singing and dancing!
09:54:08 <arke_> :)
09:57:09 <madwork> Hello... my name is Paul, and I'm a broccoholic.
10:02:38 <arke_> HELLO. I am in dire need of a port 80 proxy which I can access from school. Anybody would like to help?
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10:23:37 <ianp> since you deopped me... NO!
10:23:41 <ianp> ;)
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11:59:05 <Raystm2> A quick hello, as i break from making repairs to this machine. :)
11:59:29 <qFox> hi
11:59:52 <Raystm2> how are you qFox? challenge going well ?
12:00:01 <qFox> sorry, hl2 came :p
12:00:33 <Raystm2> hl2? and this is?
12:00:51 <qFox> half life 2, you live under rocks? :p
12:01:15 <Raystm2> yes :) big ones :)
12:01:27 <qFox> :)
12:01:43 <robert> Hi qFox 
12:01:44 <Raystm2> alas I'm too old for fun and games.
12:01:55 <qFox> like heck you are
12:02:07 <qFox> doesnt mean you cant be impressed by the accomplishments
12:02:13 <qFox> or bash the bugs :p
12:02:20 <Raystm2> altho I understand that the fastest growing group of gamers are older than me :)
12:02:23 <qFox> its not like i'm seriously playing
12:02:35 <Raystm2> hehe
12:02:52 <qFox> i've been using their ai_disabled feature (automatically enabled when hl cant verify with steam...) as a cheat :p
12:03:04 <qFox> simply halts any and all ai related things
12:03:41 <qFox> meaning all the enemies (but also the allies you must communicate with) are frozen from their starting position (or the pos they are when you activated it)
12:03:45 <qFox> pretty neat :)
12:03:57 <qFox> saves me some wasting of time shooting them
12:05:10 <Raystm2> haahaha
12:05:13 <Raystm2> slick
12:05:37 <qFox> i must admit, it does have some nice touches
12:07:39 <qFox> but after a couple of hours i do get bored :p i'll finish it tomorrow :)
12:07:57 <Raystm2> :)
12:22:22 * Raystm2 's son needs computer -- see ya after :)
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16:05:13 <arke> hi :)
16:06:49 <Herkamire> hi
16:06:55 <robert> Hi
16:07:40 <arke> \FUCJVBNLZCK;hbljfhssssss
16:07:43 <arke> I needed 1300 on SAT
16:07:45 <arke> i got 1290
16:08:12 <robert> Hihi
16:08:20 <Herkamire> crap
16:08:22 <robert> Poor arke 
16:08:40 <Herkamire> arke: needed 1300 for what? scholorship?
16:09:02 <arke> to recognize my education here as the equivalent for high level in germany
16:09:40 <Herkamire> can you take it again?
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16:10:43 <arke> yes
16:10:50 <arke> but the next one is the new kind thats harder
16:10:53 <arke> fuck.
16:11:05 <arke> they could have given me the fucking 1300
16:11:07 <arke> FUCK
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16:11:48 <aum> hi - what's the word which produces the xt of the last-defined word?
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16:12:52 <arke> depends on the forth
16:12:56 <arke> its PREVIOUS in pygmy
16:13:01 <aum> gforth
16:13:09 <arke> try lastxt
16:13:13 <aum> ok
16:13:14 <robert> Isn't it often "last"?
16:13:35 <aum> ah, lastxt works - thx
16:13:37 <arke> chris@chris-suse:~> gforth
16:13:37 <arke> Gforth 0.6.1, Copyright (C) 1995-2003 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
16:13:37 <arke> Gforth comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details type `license'
16:13:37 <arke> Type `bye' to exit
16:13:37 <arke> see lastxt 
16:13:39 <arke> : lastxt  
16:13:42 <arke>   useraddr <72>  @ ; ok
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16:40:31 <robert> Hi crc 
16:42:47 <crc> Hi robert
16:42:58 * crc is about to leave work and go to bed...
16:43:06 <robert> OK, see you later
16:43:24 <robert> I should go to bed as well, after I fix this bug...
16:43:58 <crc> btw, who broke retrobot2 this time?
16:44:17 <robert> Is he broken?
16:44:35 <crc> Yes
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16:56:46 <ianp> docgnome then you're looking at old code running
16:57:04 <robert> Wrong channel?
16:57:10 <ianp> yes, my sincerest apologies
16:57:12 <ianp> :)
17:01:13 <robert> Yay, I fixed the bug that has been bothering me for like half a week now.
17:01:25 <robert> Turned out I had reversed the order of two instructions.
17:01:48 * robert can't decide if he's losing his sanity, or if he never had one
17:01:53 <robert> er, any*
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17:08:39 <robert> Hi slava 
17:08:43 <robert> I discovered the bug!
17:09:45 <robert> For some really fucked up reason, the stack pointer jumped into the dictionary.
17:09:55 <ayrnieu> On this day, 19Nov2003, robert discovered the bug.  Shortly after discovering the bug, his friends discovered the trojan.  Fun ensues.
17:09:56 <ayrnieu> robert - eek
17:10:07 <robert> Uhm.
17:10:25 <robert> ayrnieu... I hate to tell you this, but you seem to have missed the year 2004.
17:10:46 <ayrnieu> That's Novcheckuary, robert.
17:11:06 <ayrnieu> I guess the abbreviation leaves something to ambiguity -- but I expected you to know which year it was.
17:11:20 <ayrnieu> What was the fucked-up reason?
17:16:52 <robert> Hmm..
17:17:18 <robert> I think it's because the stack pointer was set to some value used in the memory allocator.
17:17:34 <slava> perhaps your design is too fragile and closely coupled?
17:17:45 <robert> Lies!
17:17:49 <slava> the memory allocator should not care about the stack pointer and vice versa
17:17:59 <robert> Eh, it doesn't.
17:18:06 <robert> But I was allocating memory for the stack
17:18:18 * slava is going to try implementing 'undo' in his single-stepper
17:18:27 <robert> And destroyed the return value before I could set it...
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17:42:11 <slava> onebody think 'undo' will be handy?
17:42:25 <Sonarman> in factor?
17:42:35 <slava> in the single-stepper
17:44:28 <Sonarman> what kind of operation would it undo?
17:44:36 <slava> any kind except for I/O
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22:16:31 <TheBlueWizard> all bye
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.11.19