00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.11.15 00:10:45 --- quit: skylan (Client Quit) 00:18:12 --- join: crc2 (crc@04-083.149.popsite.net) joined #forth 00:18:28 --- quit: crc (Nick collision from services.) 00:18:30 --- nick: crc2 -> crc 00:22:15 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 00:27:58 --- join: SDO (~Super@67-23-111-213.clspco.adelphia.net) joined #forth 00:42:52 --- quit: SDO ("Leaving") 00:47:17 --- join: Serg_penguin (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 00:47:36 http://cryptomancer.narod.ru/foto/vef-radio.htm 01:03:26 --- quit: Serg_penguin () 01:04:09 --- quit: Herkamire ("bed") 01:13:04 --- join: qFox (~C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 01:59:16 --- quit: cmeme (Connection timed out) 03:12:26 --- join: mur_ (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 03:15:43 --- quit: fridge (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:18:19 --- join: fridge (~fridge@dsl-220-253-75-214.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 03:18:36 --- quit: crc (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:24:39 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:35:28 "There are two ways of constructing a software design. One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies. And the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies." 03:35:33 :) 03:37:10 wow good one robert :) 03:37:33 It is sad to think that this can be applied not only to software design. 03:38:22 God dag, robert and Raystm2. 03:38:23 even my uninitiated wife is saying "Damn that's M$oft" :) 03:39:04 Dobryi utro, ASau :) 03:39:06 hey ASau: how is your part of the world doing today. 03:39:12 ? 03:39:17 And hi Ray 03:39:26 and hi robert ;) 03:40:54 * Raystm2 is very close to a colorforth workstation :) 03:41:22 both in proximity and a working machine :) 03:42:25 I can make colorforth work on the machine -- but its blind. I need to fix the display properties in the code. 03:42:27 Still no networking? 03:42:27 --- join: solar_angel (~jenni@Toronto-HSE-ppp3704838.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 03:42:32 Ah. 03:42:39 Yeah, that's a problem... 03:42:41 Hi solar_angel 03:43:07 hilo robert 03:43:17 solar_angel: hey solar_angel : I enjoyed talking with you the other morning :) 03:43:18 IRC renders all timezone information useless, heh.. 03:43:53 * robert continues coding. Time for some exceptions! 03:44:04 Hmm. Dobre jitro, solar_angel. 03:44:13 hiya Raystm2 :) 03:44:23 hi ASau 03:44:24 robert: we could use zulu time or GMT or nettime or convert from each others zones :) 03:44:29 Oh, and solar_angel... I'm still a bit curious about what exactly your Forth optimizes, and how. Do you at least have some text file describing that? 03:44:29 It should be morning there, I think. 03:44:53 ASau: Hard to tell the difference between morning and late evening. :) 03:45:03 robert - well, basically, just picture it automatically caching all the top entries of the stack in registers 03:45:08 and just reordering them as needed 03:45:25 solar_angel: Yeah, that's the straightforward part. 03:45:37 05:44 CST here so thats 11:44 GMT 03:45:45 solar_angel: But I'm worried about branches, loops, recursion, etc. 03:46:11 solar_angel: And maybe also calling non-optimized code, although that should be pretty easy. 03:46:56 heh 03:47:06 well, branch optimization was still mostly on my todo list 03:47:16 although i did have it automatically simplifying all the constant parts 03:47:41 Hmm. One more Forth? 03:47:51 Can your compiler compile words that return a non-fixed number of stack items? 03:48:28 Is it available? 03:48:37 No... 03:48:47 That's why I keep bothering her in the channel. 03:48:48 my compiler was a bit strange about how words worked 03:48:58 nope, it's not available. 03:49:09 How so? 03:49:14 (the strange part) 03:49:28 let's just put it this way: i've been pretty much poor my whole life. i figure that if i invent any useful IP, i want to keep it, on the offchance that it's worth something. 03:49:41 robert - well, for one thing, it inlined a lot of stuff 03:49:44 Don't worry - I'm not offended. 03:50:18 if i was used to a certain minimum standard of living, i'd be a lot more open with my code... but alas, it was not to be :P 03:50:29 * Raystm2 thinks that instead of a dictionary it uses an unabridged dictionary -- sware words and all :) 03:50:35 lol 03:50:45 If I were poor, perhaps I'd write useful code. 03:50:47 *shrug* 03:50:57 I am poor. 03:50:59 heh 03:51:01 So what? 03:51:12 me too at any level of income. 03:51:20 I tend to spend 03:51:35 Not sure if that fits the definition of "poor". ; 03:52:04 heh 03:52:10 no, that's not really that definition. 03:52:47 well I havn't left home in almost 2 years = no income so now I'm poor :) 03:53:01 I don't even know whether I have a place in hostile tonight. 03:53:17 ASau: :/ 03:53:21 meep. 03:53:26 you can stay here if you can get here ASau. 03:53:43 ASau> seriously? :\ 03:53:43 till I get sick of ya :) 03:54:06 qFox: Morning, little fox 03:54:11 yo 03:54:17 q 03:55:34 heh, i went from a relatively comfortable poverty in the town i used to live in to a very cramped middle-class in the city i'm now in. 03:56:05 so while i can't complain about money (i've got all the tech toys i could reasonably want, being a naturally frugal person), but i just have so little living space 03:56:35 I'll be going back to work this week -- if we want any kind of christmas. 03:56:40 Good thing that we have forests. 03:56:54 * Raystm2 thinks hollow out a tree :_ 03:57:46 That would be one objective with my low-power computer + radio modem project. 03:57:48 no forests around here... nothing but ashvault, steel and glass for hours in any direction 03:58:03 IRC is the thing that keeps me home. ;) 03:58:06 heh 03:58:11 solar_angel: That sucks 03:58:24 solar_angel: Used to live that way before, in a ghetto near Stockholm 03:58:28 where solar_angel? 03:58:45 solar_angel: Was outside ONCE alone during my first 6 years of living 03:58:51 Toronto. 03:58:51 qFox, seriously. 03:59:00 * Raystm2 is in the western most edge of Ft. Worth Texas - a damn red state shit 03:59:06 it's a NICE city. it's just... no nature anywhere. 03:59:11 and really cramped. 03:59:17 although you know the really weird part? 03:59:30 i spent a month in bangkok last year... and despite it being much denser, it was far less cramped 03:59:33 I prefer nature to cities. 03:59:40 i think i agree with that one. 03:59:47 me too 03:59:51 Too much people in cities. :) 03:59:58 yep. 03:59:59 Moscow is no better. 04:00:02 If I'm walking, I don't want people around me. 04:00:10 I bet, ASau. 04:00:53 Welcome to Siberia! 04:00:58 From Boston to Washington DC it's one big city almost and you can see it at night from space. 04:01:09 Siberia ho 04:01:09 ick 04:01:22 i'm used to living in, like, semirural eastern canada 04:01:27 theres under that there ice :_ 04:01:30 you know, a nice cozy town of 30 to 80k people 04:01:54 where you have a couple computer stores, at least one place to by electronics components even if it's just ECG, and everyone has a 2-story house for $50k 04:02:02 16k here in Benbrook but rigth next to the fastest growing city in US. 04:02:22 No electronics stores here - but lots of space, nice lake etc 04:02:33 And 30 minutes away by train there is the capital 04:02:36 Welcome to benbrook -- just south of the snow line 04:02:43 So pretty close to perfect if you want my opinion. 04:03:02 yea robert sounds nice :0 04:03:17 but cant beat my weather and heating bills :) 04:03:21 robert - cool. 04:03:34 Raystm2 - bah. i'll take cold over hot any day. 04:03:44 and I got all the best stuff in the world with in 30 miles by train :) 04:03:59 and AC will make you as cold as you want :) 04:04:29 cant afford ac --= go to the mall :) 04:04:42 Heh. 04:04:54 got horses right next door for nature. 04:04:59 3 of them 04:05:07 well that's the thing... 04:05:12 6 blocks from the lake. 04:05:15 you can also heat as much as you want too 04:05:15 I know pretty nice towns with no computer stores. 04:05:15 No electronics ones either. 04:05:15 Welcome to South-East. 04:05:15 What's "AC"? 04:05:18 I run there 04:05:21 and it's much easier to heat than chill... 04:05:24 air conditioning 04:05:25 ASau: Something they got in the US. 04:05:27 so much so you can do it with an axe and a pack of matches 04:05:37 hehe 04:06:02 Welcome to Siberia. 04:06:03 No such thing here - we got to sweat through June, Juli and August. ;) 04:06:18 You have pretty vast space to practice your fire skills. 04:06:20 ya solar_angel you got a point -- you cant take off enough clothes when you have to be out side in the heat -- but you can pile them on in the cold. :)_ 04:06:23 hrm... i guess that's something you don't see every day. a geek girl who can chop her own firewood. 04:06:23 Er, July that is. 04:06:28 I'm forgetting my English. 04:06:36 * solar_angel grins. 04:06:45 solar_angel: Even geeks have physical bodies. 04:06:56 well true 04:06:56 Even if one often forgets that~ 04:07:11 and in rural canada, being able to use an axe is a survival skill 04:07:30 How do you count 35C in July? 04:07:38 I cut off 2 fingers choping wood once and had to have them sewn back on . 04:07:44 Eeew. 04:07:48 ewwww 04:08:01 Raystm2 - repeat after me: keep BOTH hands ON THE HILT at ALL TIMES. 04:08:07 apparently someone didn't teach you how to chop wood :P 04:08:27 they work great and you would never know it happend cuz i had the surgury by a Ski doctor in a Ski town and he was used to doing feet . 04:09:24 actually I was hooking the splitter to the trailer hitch when I slipped and got pined between it and the truck 04:10:04 * Raystm2 has no problem and a lot of practice keeping his hand on the shaft :) 04:10:59 lol 04:11:05 It was a miracle surgery in my opinion. 04:11:13 fricking amazing. 04:11:36 just a scar in my palm to prove it. 04:12:00 cost a fricken forture too. :) 04:12:24 And -30C in January/February? 04:12:24 solar_angel, that's not right. 04:12:24 When you need to make precise thinks with an axe, you have to hold the tool in one hand. 04:12:42 ASau - i don't really know why you'd be making precision firewood 04:12:50 or why you'd try to do anything precise with an axe, for that matter 04:13:19 --- quit: ASau (Remote closed the connection) 04:13:22 precisly :) 04:13:54 --- join: ASau (~root@83.102.133.66) joined #forth 04:14:09 if you're doing something precise, you use a knife or a saw, not an axe. 04:14:13 * Raystm2 wants to start a precision firewood team -- Fire wood to tolarances :) 04:14:37 chainsaw artistes use axes sometimes :) 04:14:55 lol 04:15:04 i'd just use a CO2 laser at that point :P 04:15:32 cool -- gotta be a market somewhere-- for the rich perfectionist in us all :) 04:15:37 There's legend that first The Vasilijj Blazhennyjj Cathedral was built with only the knife. 04:15:47 WOW!!! 04:17:02 But you don't even have to repeat anything of that kind to understand that using knife it too long and unproductive. 04:18:00 yeah 04:18:01 You might want to look at wooden houses of Malyje Karely museum. 04:18:33 They generally were built without any nail with an axe mainly. 04:18:38 like widdling off you middling finger :) 04:19:03 like the old log cabins. 04:19:30 * solar_angel is a fan of the bow saw for any precision heavy work 04:19:53 yeah -- now that's a hand tool :) 04:20:00 I worked with bow saw. 04:20:10 Yes, it's pretty amazing. 04:20:11 and makes sweet music too right ? 04:20:17 lol 04:20:29 * solar_angel used to have quite a wood shop when she lived in the small town. 04:20:53 see -- now your missing the small town again doh!! 04:21:06 heh 04:21:12 well, it's a catch-22 04:21:15 When you getting married -- anyway? 04:21:27 i'm either poor and have space, or i'm comfortable financially and cramped physically. 04:21:37 i don't know.. have to fix my debt problems (damn university) 04:21:45 yeah that's right. 04:21:55 how deep? 04:22:00 20 40? 04:22:08 50? 04:22:16 80? 04:22:31 more than 80thou? 04:22:34 hrm... 25 or 30 i think 04:22:46 oh well that's not so bad. 04:22:54 do you latte? 04:23:02 May I ask to explain what's "catch-22"? 04:23:09 book 04:23:22 Any link? 04:23:35 catch-22 is a problem that one of the characters has 04:24:02 more like a military term that means between a rock and a hard place. 04:24:39 what the heck was the name of the book. Yosarian was the main character -- was it called catch 22? 04:25:33 And the expression Catch-22 is often interpreted as "real-life recursion gone wrong". 04:25:45 ASau: the characters problem was that he didn't want to go on another flying mission. Pilots died quickly. so.. 04:26:06 to stop flying you had to be crazy 04:26:06 --- join: Serg_penguin (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 04:26:15 Is it "between Scylla and Haribda"? 04:26:28 Dobry den, Serg! 04:26:34 but if you were crazy enough to get out -- you were crazy enough to fly 04:27:12 so they keep sending you up and adding more numbers of missions for your requirement cuz of lack of replacements 04:28:24 that's the catch-22 in a long list of "catches" that kept you in the flying corp and in the air. 04:28:45 hi 04:28:46 What war Korea- ww2? 04:28:55 Serg_penguin: hi :) 04:29:12 http://cryptomancer.narod.ru/foto/vef-radio.htm 04:29:16 Hi Serg_penguin 04:29:32 hi robert, Raystm2 ;) 04:30:13 just gave my old radio to a friend :)) it really saved my sanity in a hard time 04:30:20 * Serg_penguin is dropping tear ;) 04:30:36 Awww 04:30:50 What an antique thing you've found! 04:30:58 he promised to revive it and use next 50 years ;)) 04:31:08 it was mine, i not 'found' it ;)) 04:31:30 It was not yours originally. 04:31:37 You're not 50 yr. old. 04:31:55 but radio almost is - about 1964 04:32:49 40 years Serg_penguin 04:33:07 darn it i'm only 1 year older :) 04:33:26 heh 04:33:40 i'm 25 - 15 years be4 me ;)) 04:34:32 The shortwave radio I'm using is older than I am, too 04:34:32 heh I've been married that long (15) and have socks older that you :) 04:34:36 But not THAT old 04:34:52 lol 04:34:53 oh I wanna SWradio too :) 04:35:05 Raystm2 - my signal generator is older than you 04:35:13 is it ? 04:35:18 yep 04:35:20 Raystm2: Are you licensed? 04:35:33 eico 377 :) 04:35:40 http://caladan.nanosoft.ca/testeq.php about half-way down the page 04:35:42 Hehe. 04:35:49 all tubes, all the tie 04:35:51 time* 04:35:53 and it still works :) 04:36:00 although i think it needs some caps replaced 04:36:24 My "signal generator"... free 74hc14 samples and a xtal. 04:36:35 robert: I let my licence pass. but when I got one you had to take the element 9 and 3 broadcasters tests too. 04:37:01 What are those? 04:37:12 LOL 04:37:17 It looks that I'm only non-radio geek here. :) 04:37:20 a 74hc14?!? 04:37:28 I built a 10w public radio station WBPV 90.1 FM in highschool - it's still on the air too. 04:37:35 solar_angel: Yes.. 04:37:43 at Bay Path reg voc teck. 04:37:44 robert - great if you only need square waves, i guess 04:37:47 tech even 04:38:02 solar_angel: Yeah. btw, my DSL connection does NOT like square waves. 04:38:34 A few milliwatts of 136 kHz square wave into a small antenna in my room, and BANG 04:38:52 --- nick: ender`sleep -> enderxzebulun 04:39:15 But I do throw together other oscillators when I need them. The laziness factor causes trouble though... 04:39:29 lol robert 04:44:04 One question. How many of you use: a) Linux; b) FreeLSD? 04:44:35 I've been using NetLSD for a short period, currently using Linux and Minix. 04:44:47 Oh, and DOS and Windows and CP/M and a few others. 04:45:51 ASau I use Windows XP and 98 and Linux and the colorforth workstation I'm building as we type. 04:47:17 i use linux and Cy/VOS 04:47:23 ASau: my claim to programming fame ( just a hobbiest ) is the first person to get colorforth running on a Pentium 4 native and the Tiniest Chess Operating System in the World. 04:47:32 solar_angel: Is that your own system? 04:48:06 robert - is what my own system? Cy/VOS? 04:48:19 solar_angel: Not Linux, obviously.. :) 04:48:22 heh 04:48:26 www.cyvos.net :) 04:48:34 Never heard of it. 04:48:36 and www.cyvos.com besides 04:49:07 Raystm2: I've seen they're making 3-color LEDs now, a few more colors and you can make a ColorChess using 64 LEDs! 04:49:15 solar_angel: OK, thanks. 04:49:40 oh how cool robert :) I've gotta do that :) 04:50:08 solar_angel: Oh, so I HAVE heard of it. 04:50:14 * Raystm2 oh ya remembers also the first person to get any colorforth working on Compaq. 04:50:16 Damn my memory. 04:50:18 * solar_angel grins at robert. 04:50:31 yep. it's now a bunch of seperate OS's. 04:50:46 the 16-bit Cy/VOS Embedded port even has something working lately. 04:51:15 Impressive size of the page - do you have any users yet? 04:51:22 solar_angel: I will write a chess for it as soon as I finish the retroForth and RFBOT chesses :) 04:53:14 robert - size of which page, cyvos.net? it's a wiki, i have a regular contributor 04:53:21 who probably wrote 70% of what's there :P 04:54:04 Hmm. 04:54:04 And what do you, unixoid, think about: a) Gforth; b) PFE; c) C-Forth. 04:54:04 That's the question too. 04:54:28 solar_angel: Hehe, OK. 04:54:28 Is it you? 04:54:48 ASau: I've used gforth once or twice, for its FPU support. 04:54:55 ASau: Mostly using isForth 04:55:46 Robert, one comment: I can't count isForth for it's Linux only. 04:56:17 solar_angel: I think it could become successful - even my lame attempt at a system has one user. Look around and see if you can guess who that fool might be. 04:56:26 ASau: Didn't he get it to run on BSD? 04:56:46 Hmm. I've not such information. 04:56:46 Gah! 04:56:49 Really? 04:56:52 Mozilla Firefox sucks. 04:57:02 The bookmarking feature won't even work! 04:57:02 lol robert. 04:57:04 ASau: I wrote my first chess interpreter in gforth - -it was fun -- win32forth is great in windows. -- MVP forth taught me what forth is. ColorForth taught me what forth will become. ;) 04:57:11 robert - well, he'd be a user of it if i had something more complete out 04:57:12 --- quit: mur_ ("Reconnecting") 04:57:16 but lately i've been doing hardware projects 04:57:42 --- join: mur (~mur@smtp.uiah.fi) joined #forth 04:58:03 The new Firefox version can't even download files! 04:58:09 Maybe I need to restart it. 04:58:21 ASau: I did all those things in Windows and have yet to program anything in linux. 04:58:49 solar_angel: Here's the nice part - I left the project in a semi-working state and yet he is using it. 04:59:05 daughter gets up for school now brb :) 04:59:50 ASau: Maybe not... But I _thought_ I saw something about it. 05:00:29 Better ask I440r about the progress on that. 05:00:33 Raystm2: OK, see you 05:01:43 I know one or two men (without myself) who might be interested in Forth UNIX tools. 05:01:59 all time fave langs first -- in ordrer - colorforth - forth ( any flavor) - Lisp\scheme - Python - C - fortran\pascal\basic\perl ( share same level of love for me) - jython - java - all the rest that i learned . 05:02:01 Hrm. Need to do some homework. How ironic that one is dragged away from coding real stuff to write useless example programs. 05:02:10 robert - that's funny, actually. 05:02:32 Python rocks. 05:02:39 You prefer BASIC to Java? :) 05:02:43 MUCH!!! 05:02:49 MUCH!!!! 05:02:53 exactly :) 05:02:54 Hehe. 05:03:02 OK, I _do_ feel nostalgic about BASIC. 05:03:03 and another exclamationpoint ! 05:03:09 I prefer FORTRAN to Java. 05:03:27 I dislike Java because I have to use it. 05:03:49 But going THAT far? 05:03:58 Only In #forth. :) 05:04:18 My real life is more FORTRAN than Java. 05:04:18 yes, going that far 05:04:21 Speaking of Java - there you have my homework. 05:04:23 although you know the truly sick part? 05:04:32 Feel free to pity me. 05:04:35 What? 05:04:37 i have this cute lil 32-bit RISC architecture with 4-bit instructions... 05:04:39 it's a native stack machine 05:04:47 the first language i was originally writing for it was BASIC 05:04:59 * solar_angel waits for the incomprehensibility of that to hit you 05:05:25 solar_angel: OK, my dark secret is that I planned to use my optimizing Forth compiler as a backend to a BASIC compiler. 05:06:16 okay... now THAT is twisted. 05:06:19 hi, solar_angel ! 05:06:34 i mean, sure, i was using mine as a backend for an object-oriented C-like-language backend... 05:06:37 but that's another story :P 05:06:42 hi Serg 05:06:44 BASIC caused hard injury to my coding style ;((( 05:06:59 Hehe. 05:07:11 BASIC trains future assembly language coders! 05:07:13 back 05:07:37 That's why small kids use either BASIC or asm. 05:07:38 You may think I'm idiot, but the next programming language on top of Forth in my plans is LISP. 05:08:05 i did some lisp... what a truly bizarre language 05:08:09 I've never used Lisp, so I won't call you an idiot until I've tried it. 05:08:10 it's a prefix language! 05:08:11 robert, BASIC trains future _FORTRAN_ coders. 05:08:26 ASau - how true... although modern fortran is a pretty okay langauge 05:08:27 ASau: I haven't used Fortran either. 05:08:32 FORTRASH and ASSIC !!! 05:08:34 That was original purpose of BASIC. 05:08:50 Serg_penguin: My favourite BASIC compiler was called ASIC. :) 05:08:50 so why not Fortran straight ? 05:09:33 solar_angel, I can't say it's OK. 05:09:37 damn I forgot assembler shit. 05:10:19 I struggled one time modernistic compiler. 05:10:32 ASau - fortran has been moderized circa '90, if i recall correctly 05:10:53 It's been modernized '66. 05:10:56 It's been modernized '77. 05:10:58 It's been modernized '90. 05:11:03 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:11:11 Ive forgot how to use basic between the time I learned it and the time that I became a hobbiest. but I still had bad habits. like telling people in IRC my opinion of langs :) 05:11:12 Damn! 05:11:19 --- join: madgarden (~madgarden@Ottawa-HSE-ppp4084027.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 05:11:21 They've changed too many things. 05:11:28 ASau: list is great!! you shoud do it.! 05:11:50 list = lisp doh1 05:11:50 Raystm2: I don't think you got that from BASIC - most BASIC programmers don't know of other languages. 05:11:57 hehe 05:12:03 heh 05:12:15 I've got like 15 langs now counting BASIC hehe 05:12:39 and I've never sold a line -- other than cocain. 05:12:53 I have yet to learn a functional language properly. 05:13:09 but then I grew up in the late 70's so that was almost expected of a teen 05:13:09 robert, SML? 05:13:09 --- quit: qFox (Connection reset by peer) 05:13:10 i learned some Mercury 05:13:18 ASau: That or Caml. 05:13:24 functional languages are much hyped... but they just aren't as flexible. 05:13:59 robert, you might want to say _O'_Caml. 05:14:20 solar_angel, I wouldn't agree. 05:14:40 ASau: Isn't that just Caml with a (rarely used) object system? 05:14:51 I got the OCaml compiler, though. 05:15:12 why wouldn't you agree, though? 05:15:19 SML is much more impressive than ANS Forth. 05:15:26 solar_angel: python does rock -- thou I havn't touched it since I found scheme and forth. 05:15:48 Ehh... _Expressive_ I wanted to say. 05:16:12 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 05:16:25 Dobry vecer, tathi. 05:16:35 solar_angel: you can't beat the community at Python. great bunch of people and well organized. 05:16:50 Raystm2, you're the second forther-schematist I meet. 05:17:21 --- nick: enderxzebulun -> ender`school 05:17:40 scheme -as taught free from MIT PRESS is fabulous. execellent for design patterns. 05:17:59 Hi ASau 05:18:14 Raystm2 - heh. i'm working on a language with a very similar internal structure but a radically different dialect 05:18:17 Lisp and Forth are considered the only true extensible languages. -- ( by who? ) 05:18:21 solar_angel: Yes, I'm not too convinced about the functional model. I think my ideal language would be imperative, but still with some features usually used in functional languages - like I've heard Python is, but perhaps without the bloat and slowness. 05:18:35 it's going to look quite C-like, while having an interface similar enough that i can port all the Python modules i've written relatively easily 05:18:37 solar_angel: ack 05:18:43 what? 05:19:01 you have to know the ascii table to understand ack 05:19:04