00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.11.13
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00:42:57 <qFox> http://www.frozenreality.co.uk/comic/bunny/
00:43:03 <qFox> today's is cool :D
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04:53:29 <robert> Hi wincent 
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05:06:55 <Serg[GPRS]_> re
05:07:03 <crc> Hi Serg[GPRS]_
05:07:15 * Serg[GPRS]_ is watching "Prey for Rock'N'Roll" w/ Gina Gershon
05:14:38 <robert> Privet, Serg
05:15:30 <robert> btw, my math lecturer's name is Serguei Shimorin. Any idea where he might be from?
05:15:47 <Serg[GPRS]_> sure russian
05:16:08 <Serg[GPRS]_> 95% at least
05:17:01 <robert> Thought so, but someone else said he thought it was a serbocroatian name or something
05:17:49 <Serg[GPRS]_> it might be anything slavish, but .. 
05:18:13 <Serg[GPRS]_> consider number of ex-USSR escaped scientists
05:18:18 <Serg[GPRS]_> ;)
05:18:49 <Serg[GPRS]_> USSR shot it's head and had a 'brains leak' , he-he
05:20:10 * Serg[GPRS]_ calls phone, may fall offline
05:22:29 <Serg[GPRS]_> am i online ?
05:22:34 <Serg[GPRS]_> yes !
05:22:46 * Serg[GPRS]_ is giving away my old tubed radio
05:23:14 <Serg[GPRS]_> a friend of mine asks it to make great loudspeaker out of its case - good wood !
05:23:36 <Serg[GPRS]_> brb 10-2- min
05:24:01 <robert> Tube radio? Cool
05:38:45 <Serg[GPRS]_> aha
05:40:01 <Serg[GPRS]_> 9 (11?) IF contours, 6 valves in AM tract
05:40:25 <robert> Receiver only?
05:40:49 <Serg[GPRS]_> mixer - 2xIF - tube diode detector - 2 audio, A class
05:41:00 <Serg[GPRS]_> aha, household one, not TRX
05:41:18 <Serg[GPRS]_> + vinyl player, dead from factory ;(((
05:41:19 <robert> AM only?
05:41:28 <Serg[GPRS]_> AM + USSR FM
05:42:04 <Serg[GPRS]_> LW, MW, 25-31, 40-75 meters SW
05:42:11 <Serg[GPRS]_> scale in meters
05:42:14 <Serg[GPRS]_> brb
05:42:47 <Serg[GPRS]_> we'll shoot it by his 3Mp Olympus be4 taking apart ;))
05:43:47 <robert> Hehe, cool
05:44:04 <robert> I'd like to experiment a little with tube radios some day
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05:54:10 <Serg[GPRS]_> nice !
05:54:22 * Serg[GPRS]_ is off, need phone at belt
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05:56:21 <robert> Hi aum 
06:00:12 <aum> yo
06:00:50 <aum> caught me at a bad time - 3am, just finished a prog, time for bed
06:00:54 <aum> back in a few hrs
06:02:15 <robert> OK, see you then!
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06:37:39 <robert> Hi
06:37:47 <allefant> hi
06:57:17 <allefant> hm. when i compile my forth with my forth, there are always XTs into the previous dictionary
06:57:42 <allefant> i wonder how i can solve that, so that i have only one self-referencing dictionary in the end
06:57:44 <robert> XTs?
06:57:57 <allefant> execution tokens
06:58:00 <allefant> i.e. references
06:58:35 <allefant> : : ... ;
06:58:57 <allefant> so the new : word will still consist of references to the dictionary it was compiled in
06:59:02 <allefant> not the new one..
06:59:16 <crc> you're metacompiling?
06:59:22 <allefant> yes
06:59:46 <allefant> I440r told me what i do is metacompiling, at least :)
06:59:59 <crc> it sounds like metacompiling :-)
07:00:14 <crc> What threading model is it?
07:00:21 <allefant> ITC
07:00:23 * crc likes learning about new Forths...
07:00:34 <allefant> i'm following the very old F83 model
07:00:44 <allefant> this will have no use, it's just for fun
07:00:51 <crc> ahh, very cool
07:01:03 * crc prefers STC, but ITC is cool too
07:01:05 <allefant> (well, and for a uni course, where i chose that topic)
07:01:28 <crc> :-)
07:01:41 <allefant> STC is subroutine threaded?
07:01:50 <crc> Yes
07:02:15 <allefant> what was it again? a word is compiled into a number of CALL instructions?
07:02:21 <crc> Basically
07:02:31 <robert> But doing optimizations gets easier.
07:02:36 <crc> Though you can also inline definitions
07:02:39 <allefant> yes, i see
07:02:44 <crc> STC is *very* simple to deal with
07:02:56 <allefant> maybe i should change the model
07:03:08 <robert> All depends on what you want to do...
07:03:12 <allefant> would make it much faster
07:03:18 <crc> Yes
07:03:25 <robert> Personally I think ITC would be better to learn Forth with.
07:03:26 <allefant> i profiled the VM, and 90% of time is spent in NEXT :P
07:03:28 <crc> No lookups of addresses at runtime :-)
07:03:32 <robert> Heh!
07:03:41 <robert> How does your NEXT word look, allefant?
07:04:40 <allefant> had to look it up.. it advances the IP, and reads the next XT from there
07:05:23 <allefant> and every CODE-word has a jump to NEXT in it
07:05:30 <allefant> at the end
07:06:00 <robert> You could inline that.
07:06:18 <robert> Is there no way that you could optimize NEXT a little?
07:06:37 <allefant> i could optimize my VM
07:06:45 <allefant> so NEXT needs less instructions
07:07:04 <allefant> or i could replace my VM by x86 instructions :)
07:07:23 <allefant> anyway, i first need a solution to metacompile it
07:07:35 <allefant> without an always growing dictionary
07:07:41 <robert> Are you using a traditional Forth VM, or an entire virtual machine with its own instruction set?
07:07:48 <allefant> the latter
07:07:57 <robert> Why, if I may ask?
07:08:10 <allefant> it already was done when someone in here told me it is bad
07:08:51 <allefant> already had sent off my project proposal, which had contained the VM at that point, and the idea to build a Forth with ti
07:09:07 <robert> But you're running it on x86?
07:09:11 <allefant> yep
07:09:25 <robert> I wrote a VM and built a Forth in it once, but for the AVR chips.
07:09:37 <robert> With non-writable code memory, so I had to do that.
07:10:30 <allefant> i think i need to have an dictionary offset
07:10:54 <allefant> so whenever an XT is looked up, the offset must be added
07:11:20 <allefant> or i just replace dictionary entries
07:11:27 <allefant> which will be hard with the way i built it
07:12:21 <allefant> hm, or i do a relocation pass, which goes though all the dictionary, and replaces references to old words with new references
07:14:02 <robert> Can't you just build all the new ones from scratch, using only machine code (for the VM) as a base?
07:14:42 <allefant> that's what i'm doing right now
07:14:45 <tathi> http://www.ultratechnology.com/meta.html
07:14:49 <tathi> have you seen that?
07:15:13 <allefant> reading it now
07:17:46 <tathi> I guess the core of metacompiling, IMO, is that you have two separate dictionaries to deal with.
07:18:04 <tathi> the target dictionary (the new system you're building) and the host dictionary (the system that you're running).
07:18:27 <allefant> yes, i have 2. but the new one has references to the old, in my case :|
07:22:36 <tathi> yeah, you have to be a bit careful when you're compiling into the new...
07:29:25 <tathi> hmm...what do you reference in the old dictionary?
07:31:52 <allefant> just trying to figure out.. my ideas is now, find out all the references, store in a table, and replace after compilation
07:31:59 <allefant> for example:
07:32:14 <allefant> 5 CONSTANT F
07:32:27 <allefant> F will have a reference to the old (CONSTANT) word in it
07:32:45 <allefant> since the new (CONSTANT) word is only compiled further down
07:32:58 <allefant> but i can't re-order, since (CONSTANT) already requires constants
07:33:34 <allefant> that means, (CONSTANT) will be something i need to relocate
07:34:14 <allefant> DEFER (CONSTANT) maybe, if it just wouldn't be a CODE word
07:34:28 <allefant> DEFER-CODE
07:34:35 <allefant> i wonder if i can write something like that
07:35:54 <allefant> or maybe i can re-order it after all
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08:56:35 <robert> Hej.
08:57:00 <PurpleHaze> hej hej
08:57:11 <robert> Kapten Haddock.
08:57:37 <PurpleHaze> :)
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10:21:07 <arke> robtrob! 
10:21:51 <robert> Archengel.
10:33:03 <arke> :P
10:33:13 <arke> Du aber auch ^_^
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13:23:39 --- nick: rob_ert -> sONARMAN
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13:35:50 <Serg[GPRS]_> re
15:52:57 --- log: started forth/04.11.13
15:52:57 --- join: clog (~nef@bespin.org) joined #forth
15:52:57 --- topic: 'i still love you all, even if some of you are pedantical..  compassion for ones fellow morons (and we are all morons)'
15:52:57 --- topic: set by cduce on [Thu Nov 11 23:58:51 2004]
15:52:57 --- names: list (clog Serg[GPRS]_ wossname robert Sonarman cmeme PurpleHaze aum wincent qFox I440r ender`work @arke OrngeTide Herkamire fridge ASau mur @hyrax @skylan @onetom @warpzero @Fractal @madwork ianp)
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15:55:33 <robert> Hi
15:55:37 <zardon> hello
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18:10:21 <robert> Hi Wizard
18:11:00 <TheBlueWizard> robert hiya (I notice that the first letter is no longer capitalized...hmm)
18:11:13 <robert> I'm running in low-power mode.
18:11:21 <robert> You may also notice that I'm purple and not pink.
18:11:33 <TheBlueWizard> oh? hmm
18:18:30 <I440r> tbw :)
18:18:48 <I440r> no you arent you blue
18:18:55 <I440r> tbw is red
18:19:17 <robert> Hm?
18:19:26 <TheBlueWizard> I440r hiya :)
18:19:32 <I440r> colorized nicks hehe
18:19:39 <I440r> in xchat :)
18:19:41 <robert> Oh
18:19:41 <I440r> tbw hi :P
18:19:54 <robert> irssi only uses 3 colors for nicks.
18:19:59 * TheBlueWizard checks his robe....still blue
18:21:07 <robert> I wonder if one could make a natural language based on Forth. 
18:21:27 <robert> That would be perfectly free of inconsistensies, I hope. ;)
18:21:52 <robert> Or..what's the word, when one word/expression can mean several things?
18:22:00 <robert> Ambiguos, or something
18:22:06 * robert can't spell.
18:22:42 <robert> Ambiguous*
18:22:56 <robert> Sorry - it's late and I'm having funny ideas.
18:23:50 <TheBlueWizard> maybe you would want to take a look at Lojban...it is grammatically unambiguous (though it is possible to construct a semantically ambiguous sentence in Lojban)
18:24:21 <robert> Got enough natural languages to deal with at the moment, but thanks anyway.
18:25:33 <I440r> lol YOU started it 
18:25:42 <robert> Sshh!
18:25:56 <TheBlueWizard> OK :) (Lojban is a constructed language; one of its design is that there is no ambiguity in parsing a Lojban sentence)
18:26:10 <robert> Yeah, I've heard about it before.
18:26:28 <robert> Trying to learn Esperanto now - not as good technically, but has a lot more followers.
18:26:43 <TheBlueWizard> human languages are quite complicated
18:26:47 <robert> Oh, and German. Terribly flawed, but pretty popular.
18:31:17 * I440r wants to learn chinese
18:31:24 <I440r> mandarine AND cantonese
18:31:29 <I440r> cantonese is way harder
18:31:37 <Sonarman> i can help you with it :)
18:31:45 <I440r> you can ?
18:31:49 <Sonarman> not mandarin
18:32:00 <Sonarman> but cantonese
18:32:06 <robert> Sonarman speaks commiespeak
18:32:12 <Sonarman> hell no
18:32:14 <robert> How much of it do you know?
18:32:16 <I440r> how do you know cantonese ?
18:32:18 <Sonarman> i speak CAPITALISTSPEAK
18:32:25 <robert> Yeah... ;)
18:32:31 <Sonarman> mandarin is communistspeak
18:32:34 <robert> Or at least ex-capitalistspeak.
18:32:39 <Sonarman> hehe
18:32:47 <Sonarman> i know a fair amount
18:33:01 <Sonarman> I440r: school
18:33:01 <robert> Are you fluent in it?
18:33:11 <I440r> how do you say "your place or mine" to a hot chinese chixy ??? :)
18:33:12 <Sonarman> somewhat
18:33:21 <Sonarman> I440r: that i don't know :(
18:33:22 <robert> Cool.
18:33:23 <I440r> you learned cantonese in school ?
18:33:26 <Sonarman> yeah
18:33:43 <I440r> where the (#$&($ did you go to school ?
18:33:49 <Sonarman> san francisco :)
18:33:52 <robert> s/did/do/
18:34:03 <robert> He's just a little boy, I440r.
18:34:06 <robert> A tiny, tiny, kid.
18:34:08 <Sonarman> ngoge nguk dinghai neige?
18:34:11 * robert points
18:34:25 * Sonarman hides behind the big people
18:34:26 <I440r> i dont liek pinyin
18:34:27 <robert> Can you pronounce that?
18:34:28 <I440r> its afu
18:34:57 <Sonarman> sure i can pronounce it
18:35:14 <I440r> pinyin was devised by russian linguists so to westerners its just ALL WRONG!!! lol
18:35:25 <Sonarman> that's jyutping
18:35:31 <Sonarman> designed by hongkongers
18:35:38 <I440r> aha
18:35:47 <Sonarman> and it doesn't suck (much)
18:36:05 <Sonarman> btw, that above meant "my house or yours"
18:36:19 <Sonarman> but it probably would just sound strange to a chick :)
18:36:23 <I440r> if i learned mandarin would i uderstand cantonese ?
18:36:27 <Sonarman> no
18:36:28 <I440r> lol
18:36:42 <TheBlueWizard> I440r: just say the phrase "woo woo WHOO whoo-ah" to that hot chinese girl :)
18:36:46 <Sonarman> but it would make it easier to learn :)
18:36:56 <I440r> heh
18:37:00 <Sonarman> TheBlueWizard: :)
18:37:06 <I440r> i got the rosetta stone cd's for mandarin
18:37:13 <Sonarman> those look cool
18:37:26 <I440r> or i could just say "your place or mine?" lo
18:37:28 <I440r> lol even
18:37:41 <Sonarman> but you want to be able to impress 'em :)
18:38:01 <robert> Just wear your cowboy hat and bring your gun
18:38:05 <robert> That'll impress them.
18:38:13 <I440r> mainland chinese wimmin are way better looking than the ones from hong kong
18:38:19 <robert> "oooh, a Texan psycho!" they'll think.
18:38:31 <I440r> i am NOT psycho!
18:38:33 <I440r> *twitch*
18:38:40 <robert> No, sure you're not. :)
18:38:42 <Sonarman> Mark
18:38:44 <I440r> :)
18:38:47 <Sonarman> Mark, give me the gun, OK?
18:38:47 <robert> You're not texan, right?
18:38:48 <I440r> ya ?
18:38:53 <I440r> no. i just live her
18:38:55 <I440r> here
18:38:59 <Sonarman> Just, hand it right over, and no one will get hurt
18:39:02 <I440r> lol
18:39:04 <I440r> noooo way
18:39:14 <I440r> besides i have 4 more where that one came from
18:39:18 <I440r> and thats just counting handguns :P
18:39:27 <Sonarman> you're crazy :)
18:39:36 <robert> :D
18:40:50 <I440r> i also got 6 sets of grips for a 1911 here that i made myself
18:40:57 <I440r> not finished or checkerd yet
18:41:01 <I440r> one set made from ebony
18:41:27 <Sonarman> I440r prays every night for a burglar to enter his home
18:41:32 <robert> Haha
18:41:34 <I440r> no
18:41:56 <I440r> i just pray i have what it takes to defend myself if it DOES happen
18:41:59 * TheBlueWizard chuckles
18:49:22 <I440r> well im gona go work on some more grips hehe
18:49:35 <Sonarman> have fun :)
18:49:36 <TheBlueWizard> grips?
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19:28:01 <I440r> for 1911's
19:28:10 <I440r> pistol grips :)
19:28:33 <I440r> no : sleep bed go tuck light off ; immediate   
19:28:49 <I440r> hehe
19:29:21 <TheBlueWizard> :)
19:35:47 <aum> on the PIC micro, sleep is a single CPU instruction
19:36:11 <aum> : sleep ]asm sleep asm[ ;
19:37:21 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go to bed...all bye
19:37:31 <aum> l8r
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20:23:20 <retrobot2> RetroForth Bot -- Type retrobot2: <forth code here>
20:24:03 <Sonarman> retrobot2: : test 2 . ; test
20:24:05 <retrobot2> Sonarman: 2 
20:24:11 <Sonarman> retrobot2: ." hello"
20:24:12 <retrobot2> Sonarman: 2 hello
20:24:19 <Sonarman> hehe
20:24:29 * Sonarman pets retrobot2
20:24:37 <crc> .
20:25:01 <crc> retrobot2: ." I need fixing a bit..."
20:25:03 <retrobot2> crc: 2 I need fixing a bit...
20:25:06 <crc> Hmm
20:27:31 <crc> retrobot2: ." hello"
20:27:33 <retrobot2> crc: hello
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