00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.11.12 00:00:09 2) they both work well with integers 00:00:15 3) they both access memory directly 00:00:30 both abstractions of machine language and componant languages. 00:01:00 4) they are both explicit about the size of data (eg if it's a byte, or word) 00:01:15 but as far as syntax... nothing comes to mind 00:01:35 asm is not an abstraction 00:01:46 it least not ppc asm 00:02:02 both a crutch to a mind that is not suited to working with long trains on 1's and 0's so it is an abstraction. 00:02:12 it's a direct translation to/from the binary instruction set 00:02:24 it's not an abstraction 00:02:27 it's a translation 00:02:47 ppc asm is not at all abstract. you tell the machine EXCACTLY what to do 00:02:51 but if you could right in binary you would not need to be "contained" by the asm lang. 00:02:54 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:03:15 on PPC asm has an exact 1:1 relationship with machine code 00:03:35 i'm not pointing to the asm LANGUAGE 00:03:41 but not vise versa. 00:03:43 i said look at the code 00:03:44 i.e. 00:03:48 mov ax, 1 00:03:51 mov bx, 1 00:03:54 add ax,bx 00:04:02 thats a really simplified example 00:04:07 also 00:04:12 there is not a 1:1 relationship with machine To asm the other way. 00:04:12 somemacrothatdoessomething 00:04:16 anothermacrothatdoessomething 00:04:22 futhin: you were saying asm seemed kinda like RPN. RPN is a syntax. which is a property of language 00:04:33 you can do more with machine than you can do with asm. 00:04:41 whatever 00:04:46 a3rdmacrothatacts on the results of the previousmacro 00:04:55 sure i said rpn-like 00:05:02 stack-like/rpn-like 00:05:04 lalala 00:06:34 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 00:08:27 Herkamire: "whatever" just tells me that either your too tired to argue about it with someone you think is not at your level or you wish not to express that you agree with someone of that level or you don't have time to educate me -- either way your right :) 00:09:42 Raystm2: well he said ppc has a 1:1 relationship and you just said he was wrong 00:10:15 nut uh -- i said that asm was an abstraction of machine. 00:10:20 all langs are. 00:10:47 at least thats what I hope I said and if not I'm saying that now. 00:11:32 and if i said the other thing then I am sorry. 00:11:47 yeah but 1:1 means the abstraction has a 1 to 1 relationship 00:11:57 only one way. 00:12:28 asm to machine : it means that for every asm there is a machine for it 00:12:29 for every mnemonic the computer has there's a name for it, the collection of names is called "assembly" 00:12:41 er 00:12:51 for every instruction that does somehting there is a mnemonic for it 00:12:52 assembler is more accurate. 00:13:06 and also 00:13:11 I suppose there is some abstraction in asm 00:13:14 for every mnemonic there is an instruction for it 00:13:32 you can refer to addresses by name instead of number 00:13:41 but code like this is not abstract: 00:13:50 li r3, 4 00:13:59 addi r3, r3, 7 00:14:17 an assembler would translate it directly into machine code 00:14:37 and a dissassembler would translate it back exactly the way it is there 00:15:24 cduce : for every legal machine instruction that can possible be created is not represented in assembler. 00:15:27 well i'm off to bed 00:15:38 Raystm2: you're thinking of x86 :P 00:15:39 ok g'night see ya soon :) 00:15:52 abstraction 00:15:52 00:15:52 1. Generalisation; ignoring or hiding details to capture some 00:15:53 kind of commonality between different instances. 00:16:25 Raystm2: I could be wrong, but I don't think that's true of PPC asm 00:16:41 on ppc you specify which instruction you would like by name 00:16:49 I also could be wrong and am glad for your input :) 00:16:53 unlike x86 where asm is a sort of high-level language. 00:17:09 --- nick: cduce -> futhin 00:17:13 x86 asm is an abstraction 00:17:31 you say MOV and it could assemble countless different instructions 00:17:33 not so with PPC 00:18:08 ah okay your right, I know absolutely nothing about PPC and was thinking x86 this whole time. So I lose to your experiance. 00:18:22 thank you :) 00:18:25 mov is a strange encoding on x86 00:19:13 I learned programming on a mac 00:19:39 it strikes me as very odd that ASM doesn't seem to mean the same thing on x86 as on PPC 00:20:02 on PPC it's a language where you specify exactly what instructions 00:20:15 PIC is the strange one :P 00:20:44 on x86 you say what you want to happen, and the compiler chooses an instructior (or instructions?) for you 00:21:01 I haven't worked with PICs yet 00:21:06 heh 00:21:21 nah, there are only 2 or 3 cases on x86 where there are multiple available instructions 00:21:41 oh 00:21:56 you mean where there are multiple instructions that do the same thing? 00:22:35 and how many cases where one mnemonic compiles to different instructions depending on context (like MOV) 00:22:52 heh 00:23:09 there are a couple cases for multiple instructions that do the same thing, but they're rare 00:23:11 but all instructions on modern pentiums are read and created in a special optimizing section ( has to do with hyperthreding and I forget the section name ) so what you code could be very different the what the machine does. . 00:23:29 one notable one is that a lot of immediate values can be encoded as 8, 16, or 32 bits 00:23:37 and you can pretty much chose which of those you want 00:23:51 Raystm2 - yes, the decoding and microcoding section 00:24:18 thank you solar_angel :) 00:24:26 sure 00:25:24 MOV is still the same instruction though, there's just a dozen different encodings that can be used depending on the instructions. 00:27:12 ya that's right -- 8, 16, 32 , reg to reg , reg to mem, mem to reg, and some special cases that involve indirection into memory ? 00:27:46 like treat the value in reg as a pointer in mem + offset. 00:28:04 heh 00:28:10 there's a lot more than that. 00:28:26 okay cool. :) 00:28:30 you can add two registers, multiplying one of them by 1, 2, 4, or 8, and add a constant value, and THEN use that to index memory 00:28:36 all in one instruction 00:29:26 plus sign extened or no sign extend. 00:29:36 or zero extend 00:29:45 * Raystm2 gets out masm manual :) 00:30:04 heh, something like that. 00:30:17 no, i think it's all sign-extended 00:30:19 oh and all the control regs too 00:30:23 of course 00:30:30 oh you mean MOVZX and MOVSX 00:30:34 those are sortof seperate instructions 00:30:44 okay :) 00:30:47 * Raystm2 learns :) 00:32:00 got about halfway thru Randal Hydes AOA about a year or two ago -- then found scheme for a year then just found forth so its back to AOA :) 00:34:33 aoa? 00:35:51 Art Of Assember, By Randal Hyde -- he created High level Assembler (HLA) at Webster.Com -- it's a free online Collage level course. 00:35:59 oh alright. 00:36:23 i've done a fair bit of assembler... 00:36:28 i wrote 3 FORTH interpreters in it 00:36:36 1 DTC, 1 STC, and 1 16-bit DTC 00:36:54 cool. I have yet to write one. cool 00:37:23 I want to take Dr, Tings "PHD" level course online. 00:37:24 all had a built-in OS. 00:37:44 heh, i think the whole idea of courses is highly... overstated. 00:37:49 yup , I get that -- have you tried colorforth? 00:37:58 nope, i haven't. 00:38:26 It's really fun. I wrote the worlds tinest chess OS in it :) 00:38:43 wanna see a picture of it ? 00:39:03 chess OS? 00:39:09 sure 00:39:30 i ported Conway's Game of Life to my OS's FORTH 00:39:49 yeah and operating system that is a programming language and the only ap on it currently is the worlds tinest chess :) 00:40:21 but you could get it to do most anything forth can do. 00:40:33 --- join: mur (~mur@mgw2.uiah.fi) joined #forth 00:40:43 ah. heh. 00:40:52 ya, i know what colorforth is 00:41:07 maybe even more link to pic choose c4thches2-2.html http://thin.bespin.org/c4th/ 00:41:53 sorry choose c4thches2-2.jpg i mean 00:42:02 heh 00:42:18 cute. did you write the chess program itself? 00:42:24 yup 00:42:29 heh 00:42:55 it's my only claim to fame in programming -- otherwise i'm very far behind :) 00:43:29 heh. 00:43:32 --- quit: mur_ (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 00:43:49 well, my coolest user-usable project to date is probably: http://caladan.nanosoft.ca/xmod2.php 00:43:59 okay :) 00:44:10 i should do more with xmod3 though, get it ready for release. 00:45:02 hey now that's cool :) 00:45:32 heh, you like my mod player? 00:45:35 did you try it out? 00:46:03 I wouldn't know what to do. 00:46:17 okay. it's not hard to do, and there's a windows version 00:46:19 download the file 00:46:20 unzip it 00:46:26 put it somewhere 00:46:30 put the files somewhere anyway 00:46:34 ok 00:46:35 then you need a command prompt 00:46:35 --- quit: retrobot2 (Remote closed the connection) 00:46:40 like, a dos box-ish thing 00:46:49 go to the directory that you extracted it to 00:46:53 and type "xmod2 alive.mod" 00:47:51 3 min : on dial up :) 00:47:58 heh 00:48:17 I don't get dsl till the 17th 00:48:26 fair enough 00:48:30 * solar_angel waits patiently. 00:48:39 * Raystm2 misses fixed wireless 00:48:57 I was just a block from the other dish too. 00:49:11 fast let me tell ya about fast :) 00:49:14 xmod3 is better... loads s3m's, does interpolation... 00:49:25 but it's not done yet, so i'm not releasing it. 00:49:25 then aT&T went cabel . 00:50:21 cool ; 1 min 00:50:45 * Raystm2 is opening promt while waiting 00:50:53 okay :) 00:51:35 --- join: retrobot2 (crc@bespin.org) joined #forth 00:51:35 RetroForth Bot -- Type retrobot2: 00:51:50 retroforth2: 1 1 + . 00:51:56 errr 00:52:05 retrobot2: 1 1 + . 00:52:12 oh I'm writing a chess for that thing too to play in query chats :) 00:52:15 retrobot2: 1 1 + . 00:52:22 nope, gotta turn off that damn bolding 00:52:32 heh 00:54:51 okay vScaned -- unziped to it's own directory and ready for commands 00:56:46 hmm tryed your command and got xmod2 is not recognized as an internal or external command ? 00:56:52 --- quit: Serg_penguin () 00:58:26 oops let me introduce myself : Ima Dumbass :) 00:59:15 hrm... 00:59:20 okay, are you in the right directory? 00:59:27 no hehe 00:59:37 am now tho. 00:59:38 heh, the idea of a virus in an application cross-compiled from a linux box is kinda funny 00:59:48 okay... 00:59:49 is it 00:59:52 anyway 00:59:58 now that you're in the right directory, try it again :P 01:00:20 ya waiting -- it took the command but waiting :) 01:00:34 waiting? 01:00:40 hrm... do you have something using your sound card? 01:00:58 it should look like it's not doing much, honestly 01:01:00 sound card is a contoller on mobo 01:01:02 but you should HEAR it doing something. 01:01:11 yes, but are you, like, playing mp3's or the like? 01:01:31 speakers on now :) 01:01:37 *lol* 01:01:41 well does it work with speakers on? 01:01:55 nope not yet 01:02:08 hrm. that's odd. 01:02:16 control-break it and try again 01:02:23 lots of things dont run on this p4 from compaq -- gerrrrrr. 01:02:25 and make sure you're not playing mp3's or somesuch :P 01:02:28 ewww, compaq. 01:02:31 desktop or lappy? 01:02:35 dt 01:02:48 ick. why in goddess's name did you get a compaq? 01:02:54 it was cheap what can i say. 01:02:57 really? 01:03:04 they're usually really expensive? 01:03:11 yeah about 430 us 01:03:28 weird 01:03:35 it just returned from second try. 01:03:57 checking sound settings b4 third. 01:04:12 hrm... 01:04:19 COOOOOOOL 01:04:22 it worked? 01:04:25 yup 01:04:28 cool. 01:04:31 there are other songs there too 01:04:35 just do a directory list 01:04:39 and play anything called a .mod 01:04:42 I'm a musician I wanna do this too damn 01:04:56 hehehe, so this is something you like the looks of? 01:04:57 alive it great 01:04:59 i didn't compose the music 01:05:04 i just wrote the player 01:05:08 cool hehe 01:05:24 feel free to make some mods :P 01:05:52 there are a few programs to do it 01:05:55 supid compaq -- lots of noise during playback but i get that during dvd's too. 01:06:02 noise? 01:06:19 that sucks. xmod2 uses a reverb filter as well, which sometimes makes things sound a little odd 01:06:34 yeah you can here the &^(($@ chip hyperthreading thru all the apps on some channels. 01:06:45 peachy 01:06:49 hehe 01:07:11 but some say you have to have an ear for the noise -- not every one hears it. 01:07:25 or so compaq claims 01:07:41 they call it a "global" problem. 01:07:49 some machines make more accoustic noise than other 01:07:50 i call it a (*&( up 01:07:50 others* 01:07:53 yep 01:08:40 okay how do you make a mod then sdl hooked to python maybe ? 01:08:56 oh read the readme ray. 01:10:03 what's that? 01:10:16 it's a protracker mod 01:10:21 you can dig up any tracker you want 01:10:25 while i'm doing that -- i invite you to look at the html of the code of that chess and in the code you will see an even tinier chess game :) 01:10:53 I'm not familiar with that but i'm sure google is ;) 01:11:14 this is just way cool thank you so much ;) 01:11:37 sure thing :) 01:11:41 and if you make any mod files, i want to hear! :) 01:12:10 don't worry I will . I'll do my last cd i recorded in it :) 01:12:33 * Raystm2 12war plays 01:12:36 heh. 01:12:46 12th warrior. great song. 01:14:01 * Raystm2 earplug phones so as not to disturb sleeping family 01:14:52 *grins* 01:15:02 i've composed a few mods in my time, but they're terrible 01:15:06 i'm not much of a musician :P 01:15:36 mod files basically work like this: you have a list of wave files (sortof), and you can play them, up to 4 at a time, at different speeds 01:15:47 there are also certain effects you can use 01:15:49 and that's that :) 01:15:57 it's like a piano roll 01:16:59 this is very neat = l likey 01:17:05 :) 01:17:31 aurora.mod 01:17:42 there's some good music made with such a limited format :) 01:17:43 like enya even 01:18:08 I've been looking for a way to perform with my computer. 01:18:13 *nods* 01:18:14 this might be it. 01:18:16 well, trackers are a great way. 01:18:26 protracker is one of the absolute oldest 01:18:30 there are more recent ones 01:18:34 can they be keyed to input devices then 01:18:35 a lot of people swear by fasttracker 2 01:18:44 input devices, like midi? 01:18:45 googleing 01:18:48 yea 01:18:53 or switches even 01:18:58 hrm... not sure 01:19:05 it's more like writing a piano roll 01:19:10 okay. 01:19:32 need to close some of these windows Ive got running dang :) 01:19:37 heh 01:21:05 bookmarking fasttracker2 - when is your next iteration schedualed for then? 01:21:20 what do you mean, my next player? 01:21:26 yah 01:21:41 actually, if you use FT2 and save in original fasttracker format (.mod instead of .xm), xmod2 should be able to play that 01:21:56 it's not quite as flexible as .xm, but it's supported by xmod2 :P 01:22:13 and you don't need my music player... the trackers all have their own playback engines 01:22:26 * Raystm2 still closing windows apps doh! 01:22:42 hejh 01:22:43 heh* 01:23:27 ack play back 01:24:03 azure not 01:24:08 oops now 01:24:13 heh 01:24:16 that one is 8-channel. 01:24:25 sounds great too . 01:24:33 yep 01:24:46 it's possible to compose some pretty incredible stuff with that format. 01:24:53 it's why a lot of amateur musicians like it. 01:25:20 requires nothing but a computer. 01:25:21 well then I can 't use it sorry , I'm just a pro lol 01:25:39 *lol* hey, if you're a pro, so much the better 01:25:52 i'd love to hear something that a pro puts together 01:26:36 I've beed playing and writing music so long -- it's the longest thing I've done in my life -- next to masterbating or eating or something -- shitting I guess. 01:26:59 over 30 years now 01:27:52 36 years actually 01:28:19 heh. 01:28:26 I've played before whole statiums and for just the bartender too. 01:28:37 well hey, if you compose something, i'd love to hear. 01:28:55 I will , don't worry -- you have a fan now :) 01:29:36 bladerun plays 01:29:41 *grins* 01:30:00 hey, if you've got mod files that play through xmod2, drop me an email (email on my page). feel free to attach it. 01:31:21 I think the first thing I'll do is based on a Heinlein novel "the moon is a harsh misteress" called "Throwing Rocks At The Earth" . 01:31:42 oh cool :) 01:31:47 --- join: mur_ (~mur@smtp.uiah.fi) joined #forth 01:31:52 i used to use something called moddvkit 01:32:04 it's ancient, and meant for a 486 running dos, but it works 01:32:19 really -- googleing that to then :) 01:32:40 you get the best links in this channel I swear. 01:32:49 heheheh. 01:33:01 i recall it also came with some samples 01:33:07 so i didn't have to rip them :P 01:33:15 mix1 hey hehehe hey 01:33:24 hehe 01:34:02 * Raystm2 has been tempted to rip but has fought the temptation sucessfully so far. 01:34:11 --- quit: mur (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 01:35:30 I wanted to rip Joe Campbell's "Mythos" 10 hour series on DVD but I saved my self in time :) 01:35:30 oh? 01:35:39 that's not what i meant by rip :P 01:35:45 okay hehe 01:35:56 basically, if you open a mod file in a tracker, you can pinch all the instruments used to put it together 01:36:05 so if you hear a noise in a mod file that you like, it's possible to pinch it 01:36:08 oh no way -- wow 01:36:13 or if you've got synth equipment, you can make your own 01:36:25 you can basically but 31 random arbitrary wave files inside a mod file 01:36:36 they can be anything you want so long as they're 8khz mono and under 64k 01:37:03 right -- alas down to just guitars anymore. but best friend has great synth. 01:37:13 *nods* fair enough 01:37:55 I bought a roland guitar sys DR something something but i think I broke it. 01:38:31 meep. 01:39:20 it was great for practice -- had a drumulator and 3 programable tracks that you could program from the guitar as input -- i'm lookin for a gr09 tho. there great. 01:40:04 heh, cool. 01:40:22 it plays "with you" in real time as accompaniment -- strings horns -- hell whole orcastras if you want. 01:40:36 really cool. 01:40:50 that sounds really neat. 01:41:10 hey, it sounds like i just put a musician in touch with a new way to make music 01:41:15 and that's always a good thing :) 01:41:24 yup :) 01:41:28 thanks ;0 01:41:38 my new friend hehe 01:41:39 sure thing, i'm eager to know what you come up with :) 01:43:28 i was thinking of doing a performance piece that involves all my talents -- colorforth -- music -- welding and metal fab -- what ever i can lump together as a show of a life time of changeing occupations and the like. 01:43:47 hrm... now that's interesting. 01:44:10 pretty much all things that fascinate me, although i do my own FORTH instead of Colorforth 01:44:18 this one was fun: http://caladan.nanosoft.ca/diypower.php 01:44:35 and forth: http://caladan.nanosoft.ca/cyvos.php 01:44:52 now that i'm in my mid life crisis i need a project that is important to the world as pay back for a great life sofar :) 01:45:05 hehehehe. you're hitting mid-life? 01:45:10 41 01:45:14 *nods* 01:45:31 well, now i don't feel so old. 01:45:40 hehe 01:46:03 i'm 23... 01:46:54 a baby still -- i used to hate that when older women used to say that to me at that age :) 01:47:41 heh 01:48:01 well, meet me in a decade or so when i'm no longer so eager to reveal my age :P 01:48:23 your site reminds me i need a pwrsup for my P2. 01:48:24 hehe 01:48:27 heh 01:48:42 it was my first real time doing much with sheet steel 01:48:49 cool. 01:48:55 the rubber mallet on anvil trick works surprisingly well 01:50:36 I build WBPV 90.1 Fm in Highschool in my freshman year - printed the boards and solderd the componants - made the cans -- bought the turn tables and cartmachines and got a broadcasters licene higher than my instructors. be came that GM and did all my class work from it for 4 years . 01:51:12 spent over 1700 hrs in ti 01:51:13 it even 01:51:25 heh. 01:51:45 it's still on the air too. 01:51:49 cool. 01:52:08 i like electronics... 01:52:17 we also designed the tv station for the school but we didn't build that . 01:52:17 did you design it, or work from plans? 01:52:25 plans mostly. 01:52:30 *nods* okay.\ 01:52:33 cool 01:52:44 i'm about to start teaching myself RF design 01:52:48 parts of the transmitter came preassembled. 01:52:53 i'm decently failiar with electronics, but haven't done much RF. 01:52:55 cool. 01:53:38 ya i remember watchin a guest lecture tell us about safety around the rf rectifier inductor. 01:53:52 when one of my buddies asked 01:54:14 "where?" and the instructor touched it . 01:54:30 which rectifier was that? 01:54:35 burn a pin hole in to his finger and chared the bone 01:54:43 ouch 01:55:18 a coil in the RF section of a telivision set. 01:55:59 oh damn. 01:56:09 yeah rf burn 01:56:30 wait... in a TV set? there shouldn't be any RF powerful enough to burn in a TV set. 01:56:41 there's the flyback transformer, which can be lethal for other reasons 01:56:41