00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.10.17 02:01:39 --- join: crc (crc@58-pool1.ras11.nynyc-t.alerondial.net) joined #forth 02:07:47 --- join: fridge (~fridge@dsl-203-33-161-152.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 02:33:12 --- join: mur (~mur@smtp.uiah.fi) joined #forth 02:35:16 hey, crc 02:35:27 --- quit: mur_ (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 02:38:13 --- quit: arke ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") 02:39:39 hmmm.... I type two words, and mur_ and arke are gone ... I wonder, what will happen after this line ... possibyl a major server breakdown. 02:45:26 Hi swsch__ 02:45:50 Take a look at the current RetroWeb, ye mighty, and despair ... 02:46:31 I've looked at what I've been doing, and lo and behold, I'm back to lispy syntax 02:46:47 ( p ." hello world" ) 02:47:02 cool 02:47:11 * crc likes lisp for some things 02:47:37 I'm really in love with my tag stack, because now the paren highlighting works in vim 02:47:57 and it's a lot less finger twiddling on a german keyboard. 02:48:45 It looks like a very nice approach 02:49:08 hm... not the reaction I expected. 02:49:15 why? 02:49:17 hoped for, but not expected 02:49:21 :-) 02:49:51 It's closer to html, for one thing. 02:50:12 Yes, but cleaner and still Forth-like 02:50:13 you get to lose all of those nice one-keystroke wiki markups, for another. 02:51:11 I think that it could still be useable as wiki markup, though. 02:51:20 me too 02:51:38 It's better for actual webpages :-) 02:51:54 definitely. that's what I want it for. 02:52:18 I intend to use RetroWeb for a webpage I'm designing for the company I work for :-) 02:54:03 You didn't include the retroweb.conf file you mentioned in INSTALL.rw though 02:54:06 --- quit: hefner ("damn you, rising sun") 02:54:26 oops, obviously the symlink was not enough to get it included. 02:54:33 I'll upload it right now. brb 02:55:20 :-) 03:00:57 ok, it's in the retroweb.tar.gz on the site 03:01:51 hmm... html is tags and attributes and content. 03:02:13 retroweb can handle each of these 03:02:42 there's room for local customization as shown in (css) 03:02:48 I think I'll call it 1.0 03:03:00 excellent 03:03:21 * crc will look into setting up the retroforth.org server to allow RetroWeb pages :-) 03:03:38 did you notice any gross errors in the tarball? 03:04:02 no 03:04:10 everything looks fine now :-) 03:04:13 if not, we can announce it first on the mailing list :-) then on the forum :-) 03:04:29 Announce it 03:04:37 does the site run on apache? 03:04:42 And we can do a freshmeat announcment 03:04:47 Yes, it runs apache 03:05:02 fine, configuration is not going to be a problem then. 03:05:07 It's a shared server though 03:05:09 I'm not doing anything special 03:05:29 shared server ... then it depends on what you can do on the directory level 03:06:13 most of the stuff I'm having at VirtualServer level now should be moveable to Directory level, too. So if you can override things with local .htaccess files, it should work. 03:06:14 I was able to set up .fml files to do something pretty close to what you've done with RetroWeb 03:06:31 Then it should not be a problem. 03:07:10 If all else fails, we could try to redirect to my company webserver. 03:16:15 --- join: mur_ (~mur@kyberias.uiah.fi) joined #forth 03:19:11 --- quit: mur (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 03:20:04 http://retroforth.org/www/readme/INSTALL.rw 03:20:06 :-) 03:20:58 Now to figure out how to set 'index.rw' as the default index file... 03:22:10 rah rah rah! 03:22:11 * crc has begun moving things to the root www/ directory; so expect errors to abound for the next few minutes... 03:23:03 that would be the line DirectoryIndex index.rw index.html 03:23:17 which makes apache try index.rw before index.html 03:29:02 http://www.retroforth.org/index.rw 03:29:38 Two changes needed to work on retroforth.org: 03:29:48 use /bin/bash not /bin/dash 03:29:53 And use exec ~/www/.retroweb 03:29:55 :-) 03:30:18 Is there a way to override the DirectoryIndex if I can't access the Apache configuration file? 03:30:28 :-) dash is supposed to be smaller and faster than bash, which is important for our high load environments :-) 03:30:52 But this server doesn't have it :-( 03:31:11 And as a shared server I doubt they would add it just for me :-( 03:31:36 http://httpd.apache.org/docs/mod/mod_dir.html#directoryindex 03:31:58 you should be able to use it in .htaccess 03:32:59 or in your configuration 03:33:08 dang, forgot to hit the return key. 03:37:58 That works :-) 03:38:01 http://www.retroforth.org/www/readme/ 03:38:56 --- join: saon (Ecoder@c-24-129-95-254.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 03:40:30 grrrrrrreatttt :-) 03:41:21 * swsch__ looks at how much work is involved with announcing a project on freshmeat 03:42:58 swsch__: it's not that hard 03:43:14 * crc announces every release of RetroForth there and has since starting it 03:44:18 Now to start recoding the retroforth.org site in RetroWeb... 03:45:02 btw, what version of RetroForth are you using in RetroWeb? 03:47:36 errr... 03:47:58 how would I know this without .version ? :-) 03:49:08 heh, I even already had an account there. 03:50:06 re version: IIRC, I used the rf as supplied in the retrowiki tarball 03:50:15 Which version are you running it on? 03:50:51 The one you had in the retroweb tarball 03:51:08 So it's running 7.4 03:51:49 I'll be finishing 7.5 soon (still considering that version# idea and writing documentation) 03:52:46 when was the screenshot at freshmeat taken? 03:53:00 Umm, back in 2002 03:53:09 When it was a very limited ForthOS 03:53:31 I really should update it 03:54:57 at least it's an eye catcher ... reminds me of something, brb. 03:57:06 http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20010111 03:57:09 :-) 03:58:11 --- join: crc_ (crc@58-pool1.ras11.nynyc-t.alerondial.net) joined #forth 03:58:24 --- quit: crc (Nick collision from services.) 03:58:27 --- nick: crc_ -> crc 03:58:53 back :-) 03:59:49 funny cartoon 04:00:14 * crc remembers RetroForth from the days he took the screenshot that's on freshmeat 04:03:20 It's kind of hard to show a screenshot of a programming language... 04:10:04 crc: does it have anything to do with the forthos from andy valencia? 04:10:16 no 04:10:27 That's based on eForth and some bits and pieces from VSTa 04:10:51 --- quit: mur_ (Remote closed the connection) 04:11:04 RetroForth/Native was inspired by ColorForth and cmForth for the most part 04:12:28 --- join: mur (~mur@mgw2.uiah.fi) joined #forth 04:25:24 ok, I'm pending in freshmeat... 04:25:44 That'll take anywhere from 1 to 24 hours 04:25:48 Then it'll be listed 04:28:11 time enough to go fill the washing machine, I guess 04:28:14 brb 04:47:46 --- quit: saon (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 04:59:08 --- join: ^moritz (~noni@p5487CC67.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 04:59:13 <^moritz> hello 05:00:00 hello ^moritz 05:18:56 hi ^moritz, how are your forth studies coming along? 05:24:25 <^moritz> hm 05:24:27 <^moritz> quite ok 05:24:38 --- quit: onetom (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:24:53 --- join: onetom (~tom@160.114.27.131) joined #forth 05:24:55 <^moritz> having a problem but i want to figure it out alone. it's more fun that way. 05:33:28 --- join: mur_ (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 05:36:17 <^moritz> solved :) 05:37:16 so fast ... you're getting good :-) 05:43:38 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:10:48 --- quit: mur_ (Remote closed the connection) 06:12:42 --- join: mur (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 06:56:04 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 07:46:37 --- join: mur_ (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 07:53:08 --- join: hefner (~hefner@pool-151-196-9-125.balt.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 07:58:08 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:00:54 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 08:00:54 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Herkamire 08:24:58 --- quit: mur_ (Remote closed the connection) 08:26:54 --- join: mur (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 08:36:27 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 08:42:50 hehe the people on CLF dont seem to like graspforth :P 08:43:02 i dont either but thats just cuz its written in c 08:45:52 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 08:57:48 --- quit: crc (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:21:44 --- join: mur_ (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 09:32:10 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:35:35 --- join: crc (crc@101-pool2.ras11.nynyc-t.alerondial.net) joined #forth 09:36:02 --- topic: set to 'http://www.orangetide.com/forth/ -- Links about FORTH. We love AlonzoTG, om. wasnt he banned?' by qFox 09:36:22 --- quit: onetom (Read error: 232 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:41:08 swsch__: I see that RetroWeb 1.0 has been added to FreshMeat, that has to be one of the fastest processing times I've seen yet :-) 09:45:39 heh 09:56:16 eh? 09:57:03 qFox: he submitted it this morning and it's already approved 09:57:09 oh ic 09:57:19 It took nearly 24 hours before they approved RetroForth intially 09:58:34 seems to get lost in the crowd though 09:59:09 That's part of FreshMeat... :-( 09:59:17 took about that long to approve isforth too 09:59:35 --- join: onetom (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 09:59:45 i think they actually check and make sure its a for real project and not some bs like youg et on ebay 09:59:58 "selling hyperspace wapr drives" %92837546289374659 each 09:59:59 Probably 10:00:07 $ not % 10:00:21 and its WARP grrr 10:00:22 Though my "Simple C Compiler" only took about six hours to approve 10:00:28 damn i really do need to learn to type! 10:00:40 :) 10:00:48 they must like c more than forth 10:00:49 I440r: how did you write isForth if you can't type? 10:01:00 i have a trained chicken here 10:01:12 hehe 10:01:28 * crc thought that tcn helped to get it going :-) 10:01:30 monkeys in disguise... 10:02:16 he helped me get the terminal in canoniacal mode with no echo 10:02:33 which basiclaly opned up the flood gates 10:02:42 i didnt know ANYTHING about doing syscalls heh 10:03:12 * crc uses as few syscalls as possible 10:03:42 Then again, that's probably why RetroForth is much easier to port than isForth :-) 10:04:43 but being NON portable was one of my primary goals :) 10:05:44 why? 10:08:29 Portability was never a goal with RetroForth, though it's nice that it is easy to port 10:10:25 well the ppc port is nice as is the fbsd port and neither of them was THAT difficult to port really 10:10:45 but my goal is to have a working forth compiler. not one that works EVERYWHERE 10:10:51 and i want the sorces to be readable 10:11:07 portable sources are always chock full of #ifdefine this and #ifdefine that 10:11:17 Not RetroForth's sources 10:11:36 how does retro run in linux 10:11:40 All OS-specific code is in separate files 10:11:44 you link to libs ? 10:11:49 Syscalls 10:12:06 crc thats how isforth is too. to a degree 10:12:16 No external libraries unless you _want to add them_ 10:12:18 You have a 'linux.asm' 10:12:19 the only truely os specific file is the syscalls file 10:12:34 It includes the portable compiler and Forth-level stuff 10:12:48 *all* OS-specific code is in linux.asm 10:13:13 No #ifdef crap 10:13:15 :-) 10:13:15 well does retro run in fbsd ? 10:13:17 on a ppc ? 10:13:29 hehe 10:13:40 It runs on Windows, Linux, and FreeBSD with the normal syscall interfaces 10:13:51 BeOS, Haiku, and SCO OpenServer using libc 10:13:54 And as a ForthOS 10:14:06 how do you resolve the differences between the linux x86 and the fbsd mmap syscall ? 10:14:06 (Other OSes should work with the libc varient) 10:14:13 I don't use mmap 10:14:15 plus the fact that linux has calls that fbsd doesnt and vice versa 10:14:20 ! 10:14:31 reading files with read is SLOW man lol 10:14:42 The only routines you need for a new port are 'key' and 'emit' 10:14:59 File I/O is coded for each OS, using that OSes syscall interface 10:15:59 The default builds are very minimal :-) 10:16:27 heh isforth was never intended to be minimal eitehr - if it was more minimal it would probably have been easier to port :) 10:16:33 :-) 10:17:09 --- quit: qFox ("this quit is sponsored by somebody!") 10:17:12 I have a growing "code library" that can be included by simply copying the files to a specific directory and rebuilding the source 10:17:53 (In 7.5 you have to specify them in the build scripts too, otherwise they *might* be included out of order with some filesystems) 10:18:30 freshmeat must have posted it just after I stopped watching ... now it's already waaay down in the middle of the page :-) 10:18:52 Yup 10:19:03 btw, RetroWeb is using 7.5-beta1 :-) 10:19:20 * crc checked a few minutes ago 10:22:55 I'm wondering how hard CGI would be for retroforth. 10:23:19 POST data sits on standard input, so the shell should be able to pipe it into rf 10:23:32 where do I get GET data? 10:24:19 was it as environment variable? 10:24:45 probably ... how do I access environment variables from retroforth? 10:25:26 I think I need a decent assembly tutorial and a few days to digest this... 10:28:07 swsch__, look in the isforth sources for how to read environment vars :) 10:28:22 retro has to have some mechanism built in that tells you where they are tho 10:28:35 and the format they are in is VERY os dependant 10:28:50 I440r: can is there a system call to get environment variables? 10:28:58 there isnt one 10:29:00 I440r: RetroWeb is Linux only :-) 10:29:04 That sucks 10:29:12 the environment is not part of the kernel 10:29:19 * crc will look into it after I finish 7.5 10:31:31 * crc has been getting spoiled by his work on RetroForth/Native where Forth IS the environment 10:32:17 http://linuxassembly.org/articles/startup.html has some information on getting environment variables 10:38:21 --- join: crc_ (crc@218-pool1.ras11.nynyc-t.alerondial.net) joined #forth 10:38:33 --- quit: crc (Nick collision from services.) 10:38:37 --- nick: crc_ -> crc 10:40:47 It'll require some changes to the startup code 10:40:53 * crc sighs 10:43:47 I'll take a look at it ... remembering stuff from waay back they ought to be somewhere near argc and argv 10:44:13 crc, why should it not work on windows? 10:44:32 swsch__: no I/O redirection for Win32 programs 10:44:46 Which is bullshit 10:44:57 what's the relationship between x.org x11r6 and xfree86.org? 10:45:30 x.org's server is a fork of the last XFree86 release before they changed the license 10:45:56 and for this pile of crap they threw away the x11r6.6SI :( 10:46:00 * crc hasn't tried X.org yet, but hears that it's nicer than the current XFree86 release 10:46:52 is the problem on win32 getting the console stream to write on or the redirection? 10:47:34 the redirection 10:47:58 ??? 10:48:13 You CAN'T redirect input or output under Win32 10:48:21 I mean, I can do stuff like type | more 10:48:24 Unless you go through a lot of really ugly hacks 10:48:58 --- join: Klaw (~anonymous@c-67-171-207-91.client.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:49:04 dir and more are built into the command interpreter 10:49:26 ah, yes. one of those "small" differences. 10:49:29 crc: oh 10:50:00 It *sucks* 10:50:26 * crc hates Windows more and more as he learns the shortcomings of the Win32 API 10:50:50 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-160-164-129.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 10:51:09 errrrr ... on Win2k I just typed "darcs --help | more" and got paging 10:51:27 then I tried "darcs --help > dh.txt" and got the result in dh.txt 10:51:27 * Hyrax can't use Windows with cygwin... 10:51:38 But cygwin has it's share of suckiness 10:51:46 and darcs is a win32 application for the commandline built with haskell 10:51:54 Odd 10:52:05 * Hyrax can't use Windows without cygwin... 10:52:12 * Hyrax can't type 10:52:27 * crc tries "rf >temp.txt" and gets NOTHING in temp.txt 10:53:20 eh? Thats why I use cygwin, at least my windows systems "feels" and for the most part acks like linux. 10:53:42 Yes, but I don't want to depend on cygwin1.dll 10:53:56 (Especially since I have to use kernel32.dll anyway) 10:54:06 --- join: tom_ (~tom@cab.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 10:54:49 yeah, a 5 k exe depending on a 100 k DLL does not make a good impression. 10:55:01 Right 10:55:27 that's why I find the .net forth so funny. 3 k exe for hello world, if you have the 30 MB .net framework installed :-) 10:55:41 swsch__: it makes a great impression, if they already happen to have the 100k DLL ;) 10:55:42 --- quit: tom_ (Client Quit) 10:56:05 hefner: but why should they have to install a 100k DLL just to run a small Forth? 10:56:29 they probably shouldn't 10:56:37 It's not the same, hefner, at least for me. 10:56:45 Exactly :-) 10:57:14 --- quit: onetom ("leaving") 10:57:16 I am *trying* to find a clean way to support redirection 10:57:21 --- join: onetom (~tom@cab.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 10:57:25 sure, and maybe my point is that at the same time, you're not counting the size of kernel32.dll 10:57:33 IMO the quirks, problems, bugs in the underlying OS are problematic enough, another bunch caused by dll problems is not my thing. At least not in my forth incarnation. 10:57:34 but probably I just don't have a point ;) 10:57:59 wellllll, I have a vmware box running retroforth native, too. 10:58:08 crc: have you looked at mingw? It just uses windows dlls. 10:58:20 vmware, because I have no spare machine for dabbling around. 10:58:27 so does cygwin 8) 10:58:52 Hyrax: isn't that a C compiler? 10:59:04 what good is a 5k forth if you need an extra machine, an OS or even a firmware installed to run it. 10:59:30 hefner: if they're running Windows, they HAVE kernel32.dll installed and MUST HAVE IT to run Windows 10:59:54 a little louder, I couldn't hear you 11:00:07 My lungs are getting tired :-) 11:00:46 but why should I have to install a 500 MB OS just to play with a 5KB forth? 11:00:49 Stepan: my ultimate goal is to build a custom box that runs RetroForth 11:00:59 hefner: run the native version then 11:01:03 hehe 11:03:16 * crc wishes the Kestrel project hadn't died; I would have loved to run RetroForth on it 11:06:08 --- join: mur (~mur@kyberias.uiah.fi) joined #forth 11:09:41 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:09:56 crc, what do I need to build rf on windows? 11:10:33 I have a hunch that you should not need AllocConsole, as you're already running in one. 11:10:59 You need a copy of the fasm assembler 11:11:14 AllocConsole is needed for the DLL/wrapper version at least 11:11:49 The 'standalone.asm' version doesn't use it IIRC 11:12:21 --- quit: onetom ("leaving") 11:12:21 while I'm fiddling around, does anybody know how freshmeat manages to get a 8.40/10.00 rating with 1 vote, when you can use only integers to rate a project? 11:12:25 --- join: onetom (~tom@cab.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 11:12:35 I've always wondered about that 11:14:02 --- quit: onetom (Client Quit) 11:14:09 --- join: onetom (~tom@cab.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 11:15:23 RetroForth has an 8.34/10.00 rating with two votes, that's a strange way of calculating ratings 11:16:49 Here's their formula: 11:16:49 weighted rank (WR) = (v ÷ (v+m)) × R + (m ÷ (v+m)) × C 11:16:50 where: 11:16:50 R = average for the project (mean) = (Rating) 11:16:50 v = number of votes for the project = (votes) 11:16:50 m = minimum votes required to be listed in the top 20 (currently 20) 11:16:51 C = the mean vote across the whole report 11:17:18 wow, I didn't know there was a devide symbol 11:17:37 i don't see it 11:18:04 --- quit: onetom (Client Quit) 11:18:24 They used 
÷
to show it 11:18:54 isn't 
 a block level element?
11:18:57 --- join: Raystm2 (Rastm2@AC912724.ipt.aol.com) joined #forth
11:19:12  Yes, the entire formula is in the 
 block
11:19:43  ahh
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11:28:28  crc: what site does the ratings like that?
11:28:55  crc: votes are 1..10?
11:31:34  oh freshmeat
11:32:24  Yes, freshmeat
11:32:31  votes are integers from 1-10
11:33:11  weird.
11:33:44  by that formula, two votes at 10 should give you a rating of less than 2 before you multiply in C
11:33:50  no idea what C is
11:34:06  crc, I just dug around a little in msdn and on http://www.jorgon.freeserve.co.uk/GoasmHelp/HelloWorld1
11:34:25  crc, i like the retroforth screenshot on freshmeat
11:34:26  I find it to be confusing
11:34:41  And Jeremy Gordon uses GetStdHandle to retrieve stdout.
11:34:44  slava: that was the old block editor in RetroForth/Native 5
11:34:56  crc, what does it look like nowadays?
11:35:06  no allocconsole in there.
11:35:10  Just a second...
11:37:36  slava: http://www.retroforth.org/editor.png
11:38:25  swsch__: I use GetStdHandle too
11:39:02  there are some special variables CONIN$ and CONOUT$ refering to the current screen
11:39:06  or so msdn claims
11:39:54  sorry, wrong page
11:40:08  STD_INPUT_HANDLE and STD_OUTPUT_HANDLE
11:40:18  That's what I'm using
11:40:28          invoke GetStdHandle, STD_INPUT_HANDLE
11:40:28          mov [StdIn], eax
11:40:28          invoke SetConsoleMode, eax, 5
11:40:28          invoke GetStdHandle, STD_OUTPUT_HANDLE
11:40:28          mov [StdOut], eax
11:46:50 * crc loves mailing lists :-)
11:47:44  crc, do you know that there is a function BOOL AttachConsole(DWORD dwProcessId), where the param can be ATTACH_PARENT_PROCESS?
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11:56:42  I should revive DDR someday...
11:58:58  why do people always quit when I type something complex?
11:59:52  crc, did you see the bit about AttachConsole?
12:00:27  no
12:00:52 * crc goes to the channel logs
12:03:10  interesting
12:03:25 --- join: wossname (~wossname@rn-v1w5a06.uwaterloo.ca) joined #forth
12:03:54  and from a tutorial I just found:
12:03:58   It is just a single flag in the PE header that tells the PE loader wether to create a console or not. When a console app is started from a console it uses the console it was started from, blocking it for other actions until the program ends.
12:04:31  not that I know what I'm talking about, but this could be *just* the one part missing in this puzzle.
12:04:51  Any way to know the value of ATTACH_PARENT_PROCESS?
12:04:51  I was aware of that
12:05:04  btw, the tutorial is at http://deinmeister.de/w32asm5e.htm
12:06:30  for that I usually do a grep on the cygwin include directory, but don't tell Hyrax :-)
12:06:38 * crc is reading about AttachConsole
12:09:13  I don't have the source for cygwin :-(
12:09:27  that didn't work either :-(
12:11:13  And AttachConsole doesn't work in Windows versions prior to 5.0
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12:18:55  grrr... nobody will play with me!
12:19:19  yes
12:19:32  I just called 5 friends, and nobody answered
12:22:07  7 is the number of perfection if you lived in the Middle Ages
12:26:57 * crc hates Windows
12:33:21  that is quite ocmmon feeling
12:33:56 --- part: fridge left #forth
12:34:22  crc, do you want to hear something funny?
12:34:50  please say yes :-)
12:35:16  yes
12:36:04  you have format PE console DLL at the start of rf.asm
12:36:27  why do you have format PE GUI 4.0 in shell.asm?
12:36:56  That was part of a test: using a console mode dll in a gui program
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12:37:16  'coz when I change GUI to console, rf runs within the cmd console
12:37:41  output redirection does not work, but that might be allocconsole related.
12:37:44  right, there's no need to launch a new window in that case
12:38:26  output redirection sort of works: I don't see the output in the console, but neither is it in the target file ...
12:40:06  AllocConsole opens a new window, and closes it on 'bye'
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12:45:07  swsch__: in this case it's probably better to edit 'standalone.asm' and use 'rf-standalone.exe' to test things
12:45:37  The dll version would require more even more work to handle redirection
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13:11:38  i have redirectable output for rf-standalone ... anybody interested?
13:12:05  me! me!
13:12:29  ok, standalone.asm about line 43, you invoke WriteConsole
13:12:45  msdn says: this will fail if redirected
13:12:48  :-)
13:12:56  use WriteFile instead
13:13:13  invoke WriteFile, [StdOut], emit_buffer, 1, tempX, 0
13:13:44  the second but last parameter must not be NULL, again according to msdn, but I did not grok the explanation
13:14:04  Yay! it works!
13:14:20  And if you change ReadConsole to ReadFile input redirection works too!
13:14:43  am I the man or wot :-)
13:15:04  try it with the dll version
13:16:28  If you make 'shell.exe' a console app, it works!
13:16:42 * crc will roll this into the 7.5 release for sure
13:16:55  aaahhh .... thank you, thank you ... 
13:17:10 * swsch__ bows gracefully to the applause
13:19:31 * Hyrax claps :)
13:19:35 * crc claps
13:19:47 * crc also adds another mention to the credits
13:22:12  soooooo, without doing anything, I can change the RetroWeb site and announce that starting with rf 7.5 we will be cross-platform :-)
13:22:39  who says that forth does not rock? hah!
13:22:43  yup :-)
13:25:10 --- join: OrngeTide (orange@rm-f.net) joined #forth
13:35:14 * slava is reading 'thinking forth'.
13:35:31 * crc wants a copy of that
13:35:37  amazon wants a lot for that book used. I got my copy for like $12
13:36:10  its online!
13:36:12  but incomplete
13:36:26  yea. i have the complete version. :)
13:36:27  :pserver:anonymous@cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/thinking-forth
13:36:37  oh. neat
13:36:50  slava: No cvs on this box :-(
13:37:19 * slava is also removing 2swap from factor
13:37:29  i noticed only three words use it, and they're all crap and need rewriting.
13:37:48 * crc has found 2swap to be very useful at times
13:37:54  one of them has "2swap swap". that's a sign of trouble
13:38:04  crc, for double-widh values on the stack?
13:38:41  32-bit integers only :-)
13:38:53 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth
13:39:17  http://orangetide.com/forth/thinking-forth/
13:42:16  OrngeTide: thanks
13:42:59  i'm building the ps and pdf right now..
13:43:11  good
13:43:24  http://orangetide.com/forth/thinking-forth/thinking-forth.pdf .. done
13:43:38  it's big (4M)
13:44:26  loading...
13:44:31 * crc is on a 56k connection
13:45:40  the stupid TeX fonts look like crap on a CRT. but they should look perfect if you print them. (there are some rounding problems with TeX fonts that shows up on something as low resolution as a display)
13:51:20  like if a 17" monitor was as good as a low-end printer it would be about 300dpi. so that would require a video mode of about 3000x4000. eheh. most laser printers can go to 1200dpi iirc.
13:52:26  well i've gotta go. seeya.
13:53:54  see ya
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14:00:01  OrngeTide: 300dpi displays and video cards are on the horizon.. will likely mark the end of system accessible framebuffers, too (over longer term, at least)
14:00:24  i shortened some code by a factor of two by factoring it differently: http://paste.lisp.org/display/3207
14:12:05 --- quit: crc ("Time for bed... Goodnight!")
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16:38:25  oxygene, i dunno. video cards already are cheaply available with 256Mb of memory on them. that's enough for a fairly high resolution framebuffer. 
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16:54:52  Hello Men!
16:55:04  Raystm2 hiya
16:55:40  TheBlueWizard : How's Sunday ?
16:56:27  Or is is Monday where you are ?
16:56:41  hi ray
16:57:29  it's Sunday where I'm in...and it went OK (I went to Borders bookstore and windowshopped :)
16:58:55  Hi OrngTide : Hoping your well ( raised DR. Pepper )
16:58:55  TheBlueWizard : see any thing you want so bad you could reach thru the window and run :)
16:59:34  i'm okay. i hurt my back somehow
16:59:50  lol....no, not that bad...though there are maybe four books I'd like to buy, but I can wait
17:00:50  OrngeTide : How?
17:00:50  TheBlueWizard : ? which ?
17:01:07  not sure
17:01:39  i've been finding good deals on amazon's used books.
17:02:13  dang son . my poor wife suffers back prob's ( scoliosis (sp?) )  I sympathizes and send the best back rub you can imagine ( gotten pretty good at it over the years :) )
17:02:33  hi all
17:02:43 --- quit: swsch__ (Read error: 238 (Connection timed out))
17:02:43  hacker's delight is $40 new but $12 used. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0201914654/qid=1098058035/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/102-8438608-4361705?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
17:02:53  Hello Mr Factor How are You today ?
17:03:26  Raystm2, hehe. i think it just hurts from sitting on my butt at work all day. programming is hard on one's body.
17:03:39  hello Mr ColorForth, I'm fine thanks ;)
17:03:43  OrngeTide: I agree ! 
17:04:05  mmmm.. these almond m&ms are making me feel better though.
17:04:11 * Raystm2 checking out OT's link 
17:04:26  everybody: read thinking forth
17:05:05  okay 
17:05:12  hacker's delight is one of my favorite books. if I was stuck on vacation with nothing but a cheap compiler and one book this is the book i'd choose.
17:05:27  read or read (ptense)
17:05:35  both! :)
17:05:41  he read it and you should read it.
17:06:40  absolutely. started to the other day but you get so many excellent links here that you can get easilly distracted :)
17:07:14  http://www.hackersdelight.org/ is probably better if you want to get a feel for what the book is like.
17:07:18  Raystm2: I'm thinking about buying "Fundamentals of Python Network Programming", "Draconimicom" (sp is bad, but...), " Unearthed Arcana", forgot one other book title
17:08:16  Python was the best thing i found to start a hobbiest ( me ) programming education. :)
17:08:24  i think there is a log posted up of #forth somewhere. sometimes I run into it when i'm googling.
17:08:41  oh the thinking forth ?
17:08:48  anybody read SICP?
17:09:16  yea. it's great:)
17:09:25  Structure n interp ?
17:09:29  Raystm2: Python is quite pleasant to write in, and yet it is pretty powerful, and it has an excellent collection of libraries
17:09:36  http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html
17:09:50  TBW : agreed !
17:10:20  i ended up buying the print version for $18 used a couple years ago.
17:10:54  but I do hit into small annoyance here and there with Python...nothing terrible...and when compared with many other labguages, it is nothing to grumble about :)
17:10:56  oh and scheme and Lisp ( common or otherwise)  helped me immensly :)
17:10:56  anouther great url
17:11:03  i usually use the electronic version because I'm out of space for my books and overflowing bookshelves make it hard to find what you want. most of my shelves are layed two levels deep
17:11:26  i think forth and lisp are the coolest languages
17:11:27 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth
17:11:50  they both have very useful features that C totally doesn't have.
17:11:56  nice prob to have :)    slava : I can agree that statement
17:12:00  C is PDP/11 assembler. ;)
17:12:08  ah
17:12:42  and they are are opposite ends of the spectrum. it proves that having many of these cool language features isn't a function of how high-level or low-level your language is. it proves that C could have had these things if it was designed better.
17:12:54  slava, agreed.
17:13:01  wizzards wouldn;t let us touch the pdp so I switched to electronics in a special High school to touch a computer :)
17:13:02  although pdp-11 assembly is really fun:)
17:13:14  is it
17:13:51  I 've played with 'c' and I like it too but you need a damn team to get anything done -- I could be wrong :)
17:13:59  factor was my first C program. it was fine for this purpose, but eventually i want to move away from C and metacompile instead.
17:14:03  6809 is pretty fun too. i like architectures with a lot of addressing modes. i guess i'm lazy.
17:14:33  slava, factor would be neat if it could be bundled into it's own OS or a shell for another OS. 
17:14:43  not that it isn't already neat. :)
17:14:52  a shell?
17:14:56  you bean isntead of /bin/bash?
17:15:06  well instead of everything.
17:15:15  that would require a lot of coding ;)
17:15:16  like have linux kernel and factor and nothing else. 
17:15:37  have factor use directfb and even provide the gui. :)
17:16:11  directfb might be worth looking at. does it have more graphics primitives than SDL?
17:16:22  i should make an IsForth boot disk. IsForth can run indepedently. it would be a small bootdisk since I wouldn't even need libc.
17:16:23  Raystm2: you don't need to have a team to program in C...in fact I do that "all the time"
17:16:37  slava, it's on par with what SDL does.
17:16:49  yeah, isforth + linux kernel would be a cool OS:)
17:16:51  if you want to draw a circle or something you still have to do that yourself.
17:18:18  TheBlueWizard : again I was wrong, But I don't mind being wrong in front of my "betters" . I learn that way :)
17:18:24  OrngeTide, SDL_gfx has circles etc
17:18:28  i wish 3d cards were openly specified. then i wouldn't be forced to do opengl under x11. i could do my own graphical environment and still get full access to the card.
17:18:31  slava, yea. that's not SDL though
17:18:39  that's just something someone wrote for DSL
17:18:40  er.. SDL
17:18:42  man i honestly cant believe this channel now
17:18:46  I440r_, what?
17:18:48 * slava humps I440rs' leg
17:18:50  i sat in here SOLO over over a year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
17:18:59  down doggie
17:19:07  I440r_, you should have advertised. :P
17:19:12  lol
17:19:17  seems i didnt need to :)))
17:19:21 * OrngeTide donates to the #forth advertising budget.
17:19:40  well you wouldn't have had to sit all alone for a year.
17:19:49  heh
17:20:00  clog was one of the first in here :P
17:20:02  build it and theu will come all over you. Come together right now over me >
17:20:09  when i started joining this channel it was already quite busy
17:20:17  that was about a year ago i think
17:20:17  there are a few forthers in #c on efnet. some of them come over here
17:20:34  yea?
17:20:38  get them ALL over here
17:20:38  but they didn't find out about #forth until recently. 
17:20:39  c sux 
17:20:54  c pays the bills.
17:20:58  I440r, write me an arbitrary precision integer package in asm or forth
17:20:59  true
17:21:04  I440r, then i won't need C for factor
17:21:07  but that doesnt mean it doesn suck :P
17:21:25  slava if i knew math im sure i could do it
17:21:26  some of them pay the bills with java. but prefer to use c whenever possible. ehhe
17:21:46  java is the only language that has earned me money
17:22:12  i'm still trying to write an assembler for gforth to write my first metacompiler in. most of my problems is I'm wasting a lot of time trying to make the assembler do everything but be super simple.
17:22:38  heh
17:22:53  with x86 its not possible for the assembler to be even SLIGHTLY simple
17:22:55  i've never had a job doing anything but hacking C, and always hacking it on a linux host or a linux target.
17:22:58  OrngeTide, can you post your assembler?
17:23:05  I440r_, yea. it's all convoluted. 
17:23:19  slava, when it can assemble something I will.
17:23:20  writing the 8051 assembler was easy
17:23:20  I440r, unless its slava's crap assembler with like 4 instructions needed for stc
17:23:32  slava that almost counts :)
17:23:46  slava, yea. mind is going to need like 1-8 instructions for everything. :)
17:23:49  s/mind/mine
17:23:51  slava: you need arbitrary integer math pkg?
17:24:00  TheBlueWizard, no i already have one in C
17:24:07  i'm doing MOV first. because that seems to be the best example of how crappy x86 is
17:24:09  OrngeTide : were you certified to get that job ?
17:24:18  OrngeTide, MOV is actually 485394543534 different instructions
17:24:20  ah ok
17:24:20  Raystm2, certified?
17:24:24  slava, yup.
17:24:44  i just noticed that cmucl's disassembler uses nasm syntax
17:24:46  that's cool
17:24:54  slava, it's gross as hell. there are 20 different basic variants of MOV. and then you can prefix it and turn it into a bunch more
17:25:18  i like pygmy's forth syntax assembler the best. but it's 16-bit. 
17:25:36  actually i found a pygmy for ARM7. that's pretty neat. 
17:27:41  OrngeTide : Yeah what education did you need to get to get a job programming ?
17:27:52  Raystm2, i needed to know how to program.
17:28:04  i'm a community college dropout that makes 6 figures. :)
17:28:43  actually after the dot-COM bomb I make just a hair under 6 figures now.
17:28:55  so sorry for you :)
17:29:00  ha ha
17:29:08  lol
17:29:17  yea. but my rent is 2/3rd what it used to be. so it all evens out.
17:29:40  currently making 0 figures thou so sorry for me :) ( early early retirement )
17:29:54  that stinks.
17:30:18  i was only working about 10 months last year. and 4 months the year before that.
17:30:44  yeah I quit working at 39 .  now I'm approaching working from the retirment point of view.
17:30:52  it was really hard to find a job here since 2001.
17:31:07  I'm sure. almost have to invent one.
17:31:13  my coworker retired to mexico at 45...
17:31:21  good plan :)
17:31:29  yea. he married a rich woman.
17:31:47  smart
17:31:48  with internet you can live anywhere for that matter. also nice plan
17:31:52  she made a bunch of money off real estate so they retired to a huge mansion. :P
17:32:03  though he should've picked Costa Rica :)
17:32:06  yea. he has DSL and will be working part time for my company just for fun
17:32:25  that's the point of view i'm talking about.
17:32:27  OrngeTide: you own your company?
17:32:32  TheBlueWizard, costa rica would be cheaper. but this is like a mexican resort city.
17:32:48 * TheBlueWizard nods
17:33:14  TheBlueWizard, no. I always say "my company", because I tend to work for start-ups and have a personal attachment to the company i work for.
17:33:36  plus I get lots of stock options which are only worth something if the company does well
17:33:54  otherwise they are worth nothing. or worse cost me money.
17:34:51  my buddy left a company and they said he owed them $60k because of the stocks he bought with a promisary note (they weren't "options")
17:35:23  ouch!
17:35:57  basically we all signed promisary notes for our shares so we could avoid AMT (large flat tax). but not everyone realized they *had* to pay for the shares. 
17:36:45  some companies would play the smoke and mirror games with its employees....can be nasty
17:36:51  my current company is avoiding that by making it optional to pay in cash right now to avoid AMT. I don't have that kind of cash so I'm going to have to pay AMT later. but at least I also don't take any risk
17:36:53  read that fine print. You only get one chance to negotiate your pay.
17:38:11  well the problem this company did was they required to sign the promisary note to sign on. (illegal) and they said (verbally) that you wouldn't have to pay that money, despite it stating clearly (in writing) that you do have to pay it.
17:38:28  sue
17:38:32  and win
17:38:46  or pay a buck a week 
17:38:56  they assumed the shares would be worth more in the future and really pushed canidates on that. never stating that there was the possibility that the shares would be worthless.
17:39:29  Raystm2, no. everyone sued. after a VP quit and the company got mad at her for leaving and tried to sue her for 1.2M is when she got a lawyer and let all the other employees piggy back on her case.
17:39:40  like the 'Simpsons' dot com show with the ceo pulling shares off of a toilet roll .
17:40:12  the company was in a serious bind though. they can't just throw-away/payback shares, because that's unfair to people who weren't employees that bought shares and lost money.
17:40:25  ehehe.. that's what this place was like :)
17:40:31  he he
17:40:36  rule #1: if you don't understand what you're about to sign on, then DON'T! :)
17:40:50  my first job after dropping out of college and they gave me like 10,000 shares. it was madness.
17:41:00  or bring your lawyer brother inlaw into the meeting late :)
17:41:21  not that I have one -- wishing I did
17:41:28  TheBlueWizard, I understood because it was stated clearly. the moral of the story is don't listen to what people say to you while you have a legal document to sign.
17:41:57  yeah...that too...talk is cheap...naym talk is nothing
17:41:58  like if you hire some contractors to work on your house. don't listen to what they say to you. if it's not in writing then it doesn't exist.
17:41:59 --- quit: ows (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
17:42:20  cuz while you're trying to sign it these guys will promise you all sorts of things.
17:42:40  snow job
17:42:50  been there, Hence my "retirement" attitude
17:43:00  they may even be sincere about it at the time, but they always "forget" or they might not even have the authority to make those kinds of promises.
17:43:26  or the promise drys up and you just have to 'understand' .
17:43:41  no money means no monesy
17:43:50  heh...clever lies...but lies nonetheless
17:43:54  never worry about being someone's friend when you are signing something either. if you have a problem, bring it up. you shouldn't sign something just because you don't want to seem unfriendly or don't want to annoy them.
17:44:28  yea. contractors always come by when the job is 50% done and ask for the other half of the payment.
17:44:35  agreed. learned that one a little too late. but that's what experiance is. learning just a little too late,.
17:45:09  "you got to understand my position" .. etc.. my friend has all sorts of problems and I told him NEVER pay the other half until they are done. if you pay them early then you'll never see them again.
17:45:44  yeah.
17:46:14  and if they start harassing you with the payment, call cop
17:46:31  worse case scenario. the guys business goes belly up because he ran out of money before he could finish. hopefully you can use the other half you kept to hire another contractor to finish it up. that's what I say. i don't pay people out of sympathy.
17:46:52  TheBlueWizard, they'll usually only ask like 3 times then move on to one of their other customers.
17:46:56 --- join: mur_ (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth
17:47:19  what happens is running a business is always more expensive than you originally intend. and you go around trying to get money whenever some major problem arises.
17:47:37  despite knowing all this i still want to start my own business. hehehe
17:47:57  brb p call
17:47:57 --- quit: Raystm2 ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby")
17:48:58  well i'm going to go watch a movie with my cat. i've got to take advantage of this "lazy sunday" while I still can.
17:57:34 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
18:00:33 --- quit: TheBlueWizard (Nick collision from services.)
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18:00:51 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard
18:06:12 --- quit: tathi ("leaving")
18:29:27 --- join: Raystm2 (Rastm2@ACA5EA48.ipt.aol.com) joined #forth
18:29:56  Ray's back.
18:30:18 * TheBlueWizard gasps!
18:30:23 * Raystm2 watching "Masterpiece Theater"
18:30:33  gasp again :)
19:04:56 --- quit: mur_ (Remote closed the connection)
19:06:05 --- join: mur (~mur@smtp.uiah.fi) joined #forth
19:11:22  all bye
19:12:05 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth
19:21:54 * slava decides to write asteroids game in factor.
19:22:07  this is gonna be fun.
19:26:27  I did one in Python once -- Very fun. especially since you can design your own weapons :)
19:33:22 --- quit: wossname (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
19:38:31  asteroids is fun! :)
19:40:30  steroids and hemroids aren't fun.
19:41:35  ;)
19:41:51  my cat keeps sitting on my keyboard. cats are dumb.
19:42:05  i'm gonna call it factoroids :)
19:42:13  good thing I can hit ctrl-U and clear all the junk out of my input buffer. :P
19:43:04  you need to write othello/reversi after that.
19:43:37  once something has othello, asteroids, and minesweeper it's a complete desktop environment.
19:43:54  lol
19:44:34  well time to go pick up my italian food i ordered. mmmm. ttyl!
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20:53:58  ghost Son
20:54:25  ? :)
20:54:39  is this religous ? :)
20:55:03 --- quit: Sonarman (Nick collision from services.)
20:55:11 --- nick: Sonarman_ -> Sonarman
21:10:51 --- join: colorg (r@core-dc-1-13.dynamic-dialup.coretel.net) joined #forth
21:11:00  B00
21:17:42  b0h
21:17:52  bah
21:18:00  be
21:19:06  starting to get like the 3 stooges be a bay be e be be i bicky by be o bo bicky by bo be u bu bicky by bo boo
21:19:35 * colorg plays hopsheg
21:19:53  ? :)
21:19:57 --- nick: colorg -> ok
21:20:14                  # to be followed by an address to jump xp to, enabling
21:20:14                  #  jumping arbitrary data in a thread. Pushes
21:20:14                  #   take-off address to TOS. Land on an XP and you
21:20:14                  #    have the ends of the shegment you just hopped.
21:20:14                  #                       ( --- presheg_xt )
21:20:15  __CODE  7 "hopsheg"     HOPSHEG
21:20:17        hike_xtp
21:20:19          BUMP
21:20:21          = SI to B                       # push take-off xtp to TOS
21:20:23          =       @ SI to SI              # put new xtp in force
21:20:25                                          #       checked vs gas
21:20:27                          next_           #  jump there
21:21:06  DTC in osimplay, caching TOS in B, enter/next ...
21:23:11  In other words, I don't like byte-prefixed strings.
21:33:10  so the count byte in a name field in a Forth word header is redundant.
21:36:21  what language is this/
21:37:50  osimplay x86 asm-in-Bash
21:38:08  bizarre
21:38:10 --- quit: warpzero (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:38:33  What did you think it was?
21:39:06  no idea
21:40:53  = @ SI to SI    is e.g.   mov (%esi),%esi
21:41:19  hike_xtp, BUMP and next_ are macros, as they often are
21:41:31  and __CODE too
21:45:35 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.103.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth
21:46:45  = is a shell function. It's all shell functions. It's all shellscript.
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22:22:53 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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22:46:43  lol "ok" is a freekin cool nick for in here lol
22:46:51  why the fsck didnt I think of that one lol
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22:53:54  :o)
22:54:41  I just wanted something short to not wraparound a paste to the channel, and there it was :o)
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22:57:38 --- nick: ok -> colorg
22:58:08  have at it
22:58:24  colorg : is colorg colorf 1+ ?
22:58:48  It's a defeminized colorga so Brazilians wont hit on me
22:59:18  That would be chom(colorga)
22:59:53  I won't make you explain :) babel fish -- here I come :)
23:00:18  colorga ia a color organ program. 
23:01:17  the cycluphonic method.
23:02:43  http://linux01.gwdg.de/~rhohen
23:03:04  linking :)
23:04:05  yeah i got ie and I don't think it loaded correctly : )  oh well 
23:04:31  Get a realm browser. That page is Lynx-clean
23:04:35 --- nick: mur_ -> mur
23:06:37 --- quit: colorg ("ircII EPIC4pre2   cLIeNUX. Can you say that?")
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.10.17