00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.10.09 00:03:52 i should probably write some EBNF 00:04:45 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 00:04:53 Fare' eforth code words... 00:04:54 "bye" "?rx" "tx!" "!io" "doVar" "up" "doUser" "doLit" "doList" "next" 00:04:55 "?branch" "branch" "execute" "exit" "!" "@" "c!" "c@" "rp@" "rp!" 00:04:55 "r>" "r@" ">r" "sp@" "sp!" "drop" "dup" "swap" "over" "0<" "and" "or" 00:04:55 "xor" "um+" "cmove" "fill" "+" 00:04:56 "<" "cell+" "cell-" "cells" 00:06:35 Most egregious ommission? /mod ? */ ? 00:06:44 2/ ? 00:07:05 "cells" is a 2 bit upshift 00:18:43 brb -- going for lunch early. 00:19:54 lunch? 00:19:58 its 1am! 00:21:01 --- quit: mur_ (Remote closed the connection) 00:22:22 --- join: mur (~mur@mgw2.uiah.fi) joined #forth 00:22:58 try 9am 00:22:59 :p 00:23:53 he he 00:33:06 Our microwave is broken, so I had to grab something while the store was still open. I probably won't eat this for another hour or so. 00:33:26 warpzero: But be aware, though, I work graveyard shift. I've already been at work for 3.5 hours. 00:34:23 i worked grave at a gas station once 00:42:17 They do um* and um/mod with UM+. I don't think I will. 00:42:37 Thats . . . interesting. 00:43:14 I suppose it proves something. 00:43:47 ls 00:49:36 OK, I am now a might bit miffed at SuSE. 00:49:52 Well, not so much at SuSE, but rather, at autoupdate. 00:50:35 I just got done telling it to autoupdate --noupdate (which downloads the RPMs, but doesn't install them). So, it downloads them. Then it proceeds to PURGE THEM, all the while registering in its database that the RPMs are somehow installed. GGAAHHH!!!! 00:50:37 I haven't updated cLIeNUX in 2 years. 00:51:20 they have yet to improve on source tgzs 00:51:28 You also don't use cLIeNUX as a server in a commercially hosted environment. 00:51:56 True. 00:52:04 colorg: I fully agree. Slackware TGZ files are sweet -- just raw .tgz file with an optional "post-extract" script that is run. Plain as day simple. 00:52:25 I also wouldn't have something called "autoupdate" in such an environment 00:52:38 colorg: You have to. 00:52:46 Borscht. 00:52:53 colorg: Maintaining several thousand boxes by hand is impossible. 00:53:48 How many of them did you just break? 00:54:06 None. 00:54:39 This one server thinks it has the latest version of the software it has though, when it clearly doesn't. Otherwise, it's still operational. 00:55:27 My ISP is a Slack shop 01:00:13 I'm gonna make DI 4. __ENTER adds 4 to the xt ptr in basically every word. 01:01:26 I *wish* we were a slackware shop. 01:01:38 We'd eliminate 80% of the server-related update issues. 01:02:08 Apparently, autoupdate did, in fact, update the server. Or, at least if it didn't, the packages it said were ready for it have already been installed. 01:02:24 I hand-checked about half of the components it said were ready, and all the version numbers match. 01:04:07 well, I guess that's why they call it work 01:12:54 --- quit: tgunr (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 01:14:31 --- join: tgunr (~davec@vsat-148-63-4-107.c001.g4.mrt.starband.net) joined #forth 01:15:51 so a FOUR register saves a byte of code per word, plus 01:16:12 I'm down to a 12k 32-bit eforth 01:16:36 You said your kernel was +- 8k. With what? 01:40:08 Yes, it's 8KB. 01:40:20 I don't understand what you mean by "with what" though. 01:43:36 --- quit: tgunr (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 01:44:53 MM, files, processes? 01:45:09 It's just a core Forth environment. 01:45:17 --- join: tgunr (~davec@vsat-148-63-4-107.c001.g4.mrt.starband.net) joined #forth 01:45:18 Memory management consists of the HERE pointer. 01:45:24 No files -- not even blocks yet. 01:45:30 No processes -- it's not running under L4 yet. :) 01:45:53 Right now, it includes the interpretter. 01:45:56 No compiler as of yet. 01:46:08 OK, so it's a Forth, not an OS. So what do you mean by kernel? 01:46:13 And words in the runtime don't even exist yet. I hope to get those running shortly. 01:46:46 I don't recall using 'kernel' in the context of FTS/Forth, except to say that it'll eventually run under L4. 01:47:01 oh maybe not 01:47:14 That being said, though, a Forth "kernel" is often just the core functionality of the most minimal Forth system. 01:47:28 65 words or so 01:48:02 And realistically speaking, FTS/Forth, once it gets the compiler and block words put into it, would be about as capable as MS-DOS (maybe moreso, since you can program it directly out of the box). 01:48:06 :) 01:48:12 So it's an OS of sorts if it runs on bare hardware. 01:48:28 Though, I'm not going for that -- I'm definitely going for true multitasking. 01:48:47 brb -- provisioning a storefront for a customer. 01:49:03 ack 02:48:19 eforth thread words start with call DOLST. That's supposed to be cell-aligned. I don't see why. 02:51:27 back 02:51:53 x86 fetches instructions faster if they're cell aligned. 02:51:58 (well, dword aligned) 02:52:06 And even faster still if its cache-line aligned. 02:52:13 This is why gcc puts so many NOPs in your code. 02:52:37 --- join: mur_ (~mur@mgw2.uiah.fi) joined #forth 02:53:52 yeah, I don't see a system/structural reason. The xt increment thingy nis a plain + 4 (now DI :o) ) 02:54:54 I can think of no other reason than execution speed. 02:56:44 thanks 02:57:08 The Linux guys obsess over cache lines 02:59:27 Well, when the CPU runs as fast as it does, it can take several hundred clock cycles (worst case; average of about 30) to fetch a memory location. That kind of defeats the purpose for running the CPU so fast. :) 03:00:25 yeah, and why I'm not real worried about alignment 03:01:18 With the $four register and no aligns 32-bit osimplay eforth is < 12k (doesn't run yet) 03:02:51 I can see what's going on though, and should be able to debug the thing. I'm just letting it seep into my brain now basically. 03:03:18 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:11:20 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@203.148.241.62) joined #forth 03:18:25 --- join: mur (~mur@mgw2.uiah.fi) joined #forth 03:22:12 --- quit: Hyrax ("The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese") 03:29:53 --- quit: mur_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:34:11 Jesus H. Christ on a stick. He builds the header links at init time. 03:35:53 He couldn't solve the forward link problem in gas :o) I got help from a Linux kernel guy with that for H3sm. 03:36:14 Hah. 03:36:36 gas can't do forward references at all? 03:37:21 I think it can for local labels only, and only if you tag a 'f' on the end. 03:37:25 jnc 1f 03:37:26 ... 03:37:29 1f: etc... 03:37:31 It's a "one-pass" assembler 03:37:33 err 03:37:39 1: etc.. 03:38:03 The prooblem is the links in a dictionary do a weave 03:38:12 One pass, perhaps, but shouldn't it be able to patch that afterwards? 03:38:50 I remember it was a freaking bear in H3sm. Took some thinging, but then it took 20 seconds in Bash :o) 03:39:46 thing/think 03:40:52 And as I posted last night, I have the links working fine at assembly time in Bash 03:51:18 I did it with m4 actually, for the gas version of H3sm 03:57:39 iick. 03:59:21 Argh 03:59:57 These java exercises are SO stupid. Instead of declaring a variable, they declare it, and define two functions, one to set and one to get its value! 04:00:16 So instea of 1 code line you end up with 20 (since the functions need to be well-commented!) 04:01:12 Java is a sick joke. 04:01:28 Obstacle-Oriented Programming. 04:01:45 Java isn't all that bad if you code it sanely. 04:01:55 pass. 04:01:56 Robert's requirements are artifical: imposed by the instructor. 04:01:57 Just what I was going to say, heh. 04:02:00 Exactly. 04:02:10 These people use such an odd coding style. 04:02:25 I freaking hate it when people complain about object oriented programming, when every well-written, highly factored piece of code out there is arguable object oriented. 04:02:28 Every one. 04:02:40 All object orientation does is formalize the process of factorization. 04:03:10 On the other hand, you could ask how sane forcing _everything_ into classes is. 04:03:14 That's all structured programming did too. That's why I don't have FOR in my languages. 04:03:37 And in practice, Java isn't exactly the ultimate piece of performance/freedom. 04:03:49 Robert: Java uses classes as the basic unit of modularity. When you think about it in the global scope, it makes some sense. 04:04:24 Robert: Consider: when you execute Mozilla, it loads both the code and the data. But if you re-run it, while the original is running, the same code is still used -- it just instantiates a new data segment for the process. 04:04:28 kc5tja: Sure, it's a decent module system. But sometimes you have useful functions that you'd like to make global. 04:04:34 It's Sun trying to use Open Boot to out-Microsoft Microsoft without Mitch Bradley and without the lock on the PC 04:04:57 colorg: You are aware that OpenBoot is Forth, right? 04:05:08 Yes. Mitch Bradley. 04:05:14 Sun. 04:05:34 He left, and we get Java. 04:05:38 Robert: And how do you tell the Java runtime what file those global functions are located in? 04:06:02 colorg: I don't get your comment regarding out-Microsoft Microsoft then. 04:06:09 kc5tja: Magic. 04:06:20 kc5tja: OK, I admit I wasn't thinking about its runtime system. 04:06:22 Robert: Too bad computers aren't magic. 04:06:28 They tried to create an OS without the box 04:06:39 The language and the runtime are intertwined, as it is in every language. 04:07:00 kc5tja: Some languages aren't all that bound to the runtime model. 04:07:31 Robert: Oh, I strongly disagree. You can blame C for everything from the Unix runtime environment to the Windows runtime environment. 04:07:41 I love it when people say, "C doesn't have a runtime environment." Uh huh. 04:07:42 Right. 04:08:21 libc 04:08:30 brb -- facilities monitoring. 04:08:37 colorg: Ignore that -- that's just the library. 04:08:45 Look at something more fundamental: the C calling conventions. 04:09:12 That varies. 04:10:02 Irrelavent/ 04:10:04 OK, I am failing to jump from machine code to COLD. 04:10:05 It varies for Java too. 04:10:12 And for Forth. 04:10:31 That's why there is a distinction between API and ABI -- one is abstract, the latter is concrete. 04:12:25 kc5tja: You can use C on everything from microcontrollers to interpreted scripting engines... It does affect the environment, but not as much as Java. 04:12:58 I disagree 04:13:00 COmpletely. 04:13:07 The C VM is a PDP-8. That's not much of a runtime. 04:13:18 The Forth VM is a dual-stack architecture. 04:13:21 Not much of a runtime. 04:13:32 The Java VM is a single-stack VM -- not much of a runtime. 04:13:39 A lot more than C, which is why I wrote osimplay. 04:13:46 No, it's not. 04:13:50 I don't know where you get this idea from. 04:13:56 2 stacks is. 04:14:04 The 68000 CPU has *8* stacks. 04:14:08 C vs Forth performance numbers 04:14:08 A0 through A7. 04:14:17 Because CPUs are optimized to run C. 04:14:22 C'mon -- next one. 04:14:47 UNLESS you hard-compile the Forth to 1-stack code 04:15:02 so I write assembly in Bash 04:15:19 Just because the "default" runtime environment is established in ROM to be C's basic execution environment does not make it any less influential on the system than, say, if Forth came in ROM. 04:15:49 --- quit: madgarden_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:15:53 --- join: madgarden_ (~madgarden@Kitchener-HSE-ppp3576522.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 04:15:53 --- nick: madgarden_ -> madgarden 04:20:32 what's the difference between jmp *(%eax) and jmp (%eax) ? 04:23:49 As I'm not familiar with AT&T syntax, I really can't tell. 04:24:21 Is there any good reference on AT&T syntax? 04:24:43 the as.info in the GNU sources 04:25:12 the GNU infos are awesome. THe format sucks, but,.,. 04:25:52 I rather like GNU Info format. 04:26:01 The browser for it stinks though. :) 04:26:09 there ya go 04:26:33 qFox: Good afternoon 04:27:58 well jmp to a register should just jump to the address in the register on x86, not fetch one first, right? I can't seem to NEXT to COLD 04:28:40 Yes 04:28:52 But AT&T syntax might be confusing some things. 04:29:05 --- join: crc (crc@126-pool1.ras11.nynyc-t.alerondial.net) joined #forth 04:29:34 For example, I know that in Motorola syntax, MOVE.L (a0),D0 fetches memory from the address in A0. But, JMP (a0) will jump to the address *in* A0, not *at* a0. 04:29:40 NEXT is supposed to be jmp *(%esi) 04:29:50 I'm wondering if AT&T syntax is making a similar interpretation. 04:30:07 x86 isn't as fetchy as Moto either 04:30:56 = COLD1 to $xt 04:30:56 __NEXT # to high level COLD start which 04:30:56 # QUITs to the interpreter. 04:31:51 and I put a bailout at COLD1 and segfault anyway, but I can bail before the above 04:32:07 $xt is SI 04:32:42 so it should jump to COLD1: 04:33:51 I'll have to write a small test program tomorrow. 04:37:47 * colorg reads INTEL386.TXT 04:39:02 Damn, there is a fetch. 04:46:06 Hmm... 04:46:23 According to http://www.objsw.com/docs/as_196.html, "AT&T absolute (as opposed to PC relative) jump/call operands are prefixed by `*'; they are undelimited in Intel syntax." 04:47:06 So it looks like jmp *(%eax) means to jump to the absolute address in EAX. However, I'm unaware of a relative branch, so I'm thinking that jmp *(%eax) and jmp (%eax) refer to the same instruction. 04:50:00 thanks 04:50:22 yeah, without the * you get the same code and a warning 04:50:37 FF26 for esi 04:50:56 I beat. Seeya. 04:51:15 I'm beat that is. Obliviously ;o) 04:51:18 --- quit: colorg ("ircII EPIC4pre2 cLIeNUX. Can you say that?") 04:52:22 kc5tja: any more progress on FTS/Forth? 04:52:41 crc: Not tonight, no. Been too lazy and wiped. 04:52:52 I did get it to interpret words yesterday morning though. 04:52:56 cool 04:53:03 Hello (prints hello world) and bye (quits the Forth environment). 04:53:07 * kc5tja is really happy with it. 04:53:22 Is it online yet? 04:53:33 No, again, I've been too tired/wiped. 04:53:40 ok 04:55:37 I should probably just get it done now. 04:55:39 BRB 05:01:39 * kc5tja is uploading now. 05:09:34 --- join: mur_ (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 05:11:11 OK, the new site and project is uploaded. 05:13:14 Got it, now to figure out how to compile it... 05:13:47 Type "./forth" in the current directory, then "go" at the OK prompt. That'll produce a "a.out" file which you can execute. 05:14:04 The definition of "go" is in block 2, IIRC. 05:16:12 it didn't work :-( 05:16:49 What version of gForth are you using? 05:20:04 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:20:58 0.6.2. 05:21:08 What didn't work though? 05:21:15 I'm not using anything that would require 0.6.2. 05:22:55 The error displayed is: 05:22:56 in file included from *the terminal*:1 05:22:56 in file included from *evaluated string*:-1 05:22:56 in file included from *a block*:100 05:22:56 *a block*:112: Dictionary overflow 05:23:11 ?!?! 05:23:16 Dictionary overflow?! 05:23:19 Then the block starting "( ELF Process Image ) -4k- here elfHeader !" is shown 05:23:30 Backtrace: 05:23:30 $40184E34 throw 05:23:37 What version of gforth are you using? 05:23:41 0.5.0 05:24:04 What line is the error referring to? 05:24:07 After the backtrace is shown, no input is processed and I have to manually terminate the gforth process 05:24:24 I'm not sure 05:24:26 * kc5tja wonders if 0.5.0 allocates only a 16KB dictionary or something. 05:24:39 You may need to recompile 0.5.0 to support a larger dictionary then. :( 05:25:00 I'll just update to 0.6.2 05:25:23 Type in "dictionary-end here - ." and tell me what value you see. 05:25:32 (on a fresh gforth run) 05:25:39 Mine comes up to be 4MB. 05:26:01 117216 05:26:07 WWHHOOAA!! 05:26:11 DUDE! 05:26:15 That is HILARIOUS! 05:26:25 GForth 0.5.0 allocated only a 128KB dictionary space! 05:26:39 So does RetroForth... 05:26:56 Any way to easily change the dictionary size? 05:27:15 I don't know; I seldom use gForth 05:27:24 No, in RetroForth I mean. 05:27:36 If not, I suppose one could modify the compiler to compile code into blocks. 05:27:42 Yes, just change the line telling the number of bytes to reserve 05:27:50 Yeah, FTS/Forth will be the same way. 05:27:55 Change the line, then recompile the kernel. 05:27:57 I have 128k dictionary, 256k code 05:28:00 Yup 05:28:03 Is GoForth taken? 05:28:10 Baughn: GoForth? 05:28:16 Not sure. 05:28:29 I've never heard of a GoForth 05:28:38 Good, good. 05:28:53 * crc wonders if he should increase the default memory allocations in RetroForth 05:28:57 * kc5tja has exclusive rights to the name "Forth/4" though. :D 05:29:02 So, don't use it! :D 05:29:40 Hmm. What's the smallest possible turing-complete forth? 05:30:48 That depends on the architecture in question, I suppose. 05:31:26 16KB is considered "average" size for a nominal Forth environment on 16-bit architectures. 8KB for 8-bit machines. I'd wager it'd be approximately half that size for a minimal, yet Turing-complete, Forth. 05:36:43 kc5tja: 0.6.2 works, though I have to use CTRL+D to quit gForth after running 'go' 05:36:52 Correct. 05:37:05 Sorry, I forgot to mention that. It's because I redefined BYE as the target-compiled word. 05:37:13 ok, not a problem 05:37:26 * crc sort of figured that was the case 05:38:11 OOPS. I have a bug in the interpreter. Unrecognized words are supposed to print ": undefined?" after them 05:38:39 On block 72, to get the correct behavior, change the definition of notDefined to this: 05:38:42 ,: notFound .name ," : undefined?" type cr ;, 05:39:58 * crc has no idea how to use the vibe editor 05:40:25 '72 vibe' takes me to the block; from there I'm 100% lost 05:40:39 * kc5tja sighs -- I need to write up some basic documentation, I guess. 05:40:46 VIBE is inspired by VI. 05:40:54 Pressing any of the arrow keys takes me back to the previous code block 05:40:55 In command mode, use h j k l to move the cursor. 05:41:00 Use i to insert. 05:41:09 Use x to delete the character under the cursor. 05:41:18 Use dd to delete the current line. 05:41:44 That's about all I implemented, realistically (capital-R enters "replace" mode, but that's more a convenience) 05:41:57 In insert mode of some kind, use ESC to go back to command-mode. 05:42:04 Capital-Q is to exit VIBE. 05:43:30 ok, notFound is working properly now 05:44:23 * crc has always used a line-oriented editor with blocks 05:44:25 My next immediate step is to get it to interpret numbers. :) 05:44:33 How hard will that be? 05:44:36 crc: Ahh. 05:45:04 It can be somewhat of a challenge. 05:46:09 How hard would it be to use vibe with a Forth other than gForth? 05:46:26 If it's an ANSI Forth, it's trivial. 05:46:49 It's not an ANS forth. 05:46:56 If it's a non-ANSI Forth, some Forth-specific details, like the dictionary search code, might need to be adjusted. Otherwise, porting ought to be relatively painless. 05:47:25 It's designed with the assumption that the *only* input device available is *only* able to generate ASCII codes. 05:47:25 ok 05:47:34 I don't even assume the presence of function keys. 05:47:36 * crc might attempt to port it to RetroForth/Native 05:48:01 If you look somewhere between blocks 40 and 60, there is a line editor, IIRC. 05:48:16 That's good; the native keyboard driver only supports the standard keys (no ctrl/alt, function keys, arrow keys, etc) 05:48:19 Type (in GForth) 40 60 index to show a listing of the blocks in that range. 05:49:26 that's a nice word :-) 05:49:37 Odd blocks are for comments? 05:49:51 Yes. 05:49:55 Oops -- forgot to tell you. 05:50:05 Use \ in Vibe to toggle between source and shadow comments. 05:51:29 Oh, and [ and ] to go down by two and go up by two blocks. 05:51:33 Man, I'm spacing it. I'm sorry. 05:51:42 That's ok 05:53:23 the line editor is in block 8 05:53:34 hmm...I must have moved it then. 06:06:54 Since FTS/Forth for Linux won't have character-level keyboard interaction for quite some time, I'm going to expand on the line editor a bit. 06:07:01 Probably devote about three blocks to it, instead of just one. 06:07:30 One of the things I'm planning is a block import and export functionality, that saves source blocks in a form that is directly executable by the line editor to reconstruct the blocks. :-) 06:07:47 Kind of like how Smalltalk exports class and method definitions to "change files." :) 06:08:51 cool 06:09:06 Mine is really limited, but I'm used to it 06:09:37 FTS/Forth is currently line-buffered? 06:09:53 As a natural consequence of reading line information from stdin, yes. 06:10:12 accept is implemented in terms of the read() system function. 06:10:12 So is RetroForth :-) 06:10:18 (Except for the native version) 06:10:46 It's not too difficult to turn off the line buffering under Linux though 06:10:48 Yeah, I really don't know what I'll do for Forth/4 yet. 06:11:04 I remember it being a rather significant amount of ioctl invokations. 06:11:23 And, then you have to catch CTRL-C to restore the terminal state, since Linux doesn't do that for you. 06:11:31 (which is RETARDED, but I digress.) 06:12:20 It takes about 13 lines of assembly to enable it... 06:12:31 Hmm 06:12:43 I'll code it when I need it. 06:12:52 * kc5tja still doesn't relish the thought of implementing it yet. 06:12:52 :) 06:12:56 :-) 06:28:48 --- join: Hyrax (~das@adsl-64-219-100-33.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 06:31:36 --- quit: mur_ (Remote closed the connection) 06:32:23 --- join: mur (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 06:34:18 Anyone here familiar with Mutt by any chance? 06:34:36 --- join: snowrichard (~richard@adsl-068-209-159-248.sip.shv.bellsouth.net) joined #forth 06:34:42 --- quit: snowrichard (Client Quit) 06:34:54 I'm trying to set my reply-to address, but it's not working. 06:48:20 --- quit: crc (Client Quit) 06:50:41 --- join: crc (crc@172-pool1.ras11.nynyc-t.alerondial.net) joined #forth 06:55:59 --- join: jdrake (~jdrake@CPE00045afdd0e8-CM014410113717.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 07:20:17 When a server goes down, I get pissy. 07:20:28 But when my next shift is late . . . I get rather mad. 07:20:42 This is getting rediculous. 07:38:11 Yay, they finally showed up. Whoopee. 07:40:27 Going home. 07:40:30 And then to bed. 07:40:34 Screw this crap. 07:53:08 --- join: Raystm2- (Rastm2@AC893DC7.ipt.aol.com) joined #forth 08:08:16 --- join: mur_ (~mur@kyberias.uiah.fi) joined #forth 08:09:51 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:10:47 --- quit: mur (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 08:10:53 --- part: Raystm2- left #forth 08:12:41 --- join: Raystm2- (Rastm2@AC893DC7.ipt.aol.com) joined #forth 08:12:41 --- quit: Raystm2- ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 08:41:05 --- quit: crc (Client Quit) 08:47:22 --- join: Raystm2 (Rastm2@AC893DC7.ipt.aol.com) joined #forth 09:11:02 --- quit: mur_ (Remote closed the connection) 09:12:22 --- join: mur (~mur@mgw2.uiah.fi) joined #forth 09:13:24 --- quit: Raystm2 ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 09:16:40 --- quit: jdrake (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:16:53 --- join: jdrake (~jdrake@CPE00045afdd0e8-CM014410113717.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 09:31:46 --- join: Serg[GPRS] (~z@193.201.231.126) joined #forth 09:32:11 hi ! 09:32:37 Hi Serg :) 09:33:00 --- join: whatever (thin@bespin.org) joined #forth 09:33:16 --- nick: whatever -> futhin 09:33:23 fu, thin. 09:33:29 Er, hi futhin 09:34:22 hi rob_ert 09:34:25 ;) 09:34:55 i miss the old rob_ert :~( 09:34:59 Aw, poor futhin. 09:35:17 Want something to poke fun of? 09:35:44 not really heh 09:35:48 Hehe, good. 09:35:56 * Robert keeps it away 09:36:00 :P 09:36:06 keep what away? 09:36:26 The C program 09:36:36 I was thinking about scaring you with the ugliest piece of C code EVER 09:36:37 But... 09:36:41 ooh 09:37:36 hmm 09:37:47 was it from an obfuscated C coding contest? 09:37:55 or was it something you coded? 09:38:14 c = a +++ b ;)) 09:38:27 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 09:38:27 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Herkamire 09:38:38 or even c = a +++++ b ;) 09:39:15 futhin: Nah, just a simple hack 09:39:28 futhin: But I added some features, and didn't fix the structure up 09:39:43 futhin: So it's a 100% unreadable program, even though it's just a few pages of code. 09:42:10 C is illegal anyways 09:42:16 all C coders are criminals 09:42:17 Tss 09:42:31 ssT 09:43:12 i abandoned coding C coz it was way too anti-intuitive 09:44:10 Adjust your intuition 09:49:31 lol 09:50:04 if C or pascal or some other procedural language is your first language to learn, there's a huge learning curve 09:50:22 and then when you approach some other language like forth/lisp/etc you have to deal with another learning curve 09:50:30 as its a different paradigm 09:50:57 so C isn't so much intuitive as it is learned by the majority of people first 09:52:19 hi 09:52:24 futhin! :) 09:52:54 --- quit: Serg[GPRS] (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:53:12 moo arke 09:53:41 --- join: Serg[GPRS]_ (~z@193.201.231.126) joined #forth 09:54:02 Don't know about that... I think C is pretty "intuitive" (or rather, similar to the usual mathematical notation). 09:54:02 I doubt there's a single "intuitive" language. 09:54:11 dhamn... phone call dropped my IRC link... 09:54:27 hey ops, kick my ghost hard !! 09:55:01 C is far from intuitive language!! 09:55:01 --- nick: Serg[GPRS]_ -> Serg[GPRS] 09:55:40 intuitive language is such which one can use without konwing rules or notation 09:55:52 without learning it at all 09:55:57 just go and start coding 09:56:10 in this case, intuitive language would be the language that has the LEAST rules or notation 09:56:20 as there's not gonna be any language with zero rules or notations 09:56:26 i consider Perl and Forth more intuitive 09:56:33 i dont 09:56:38 basic might be quite intuitive 09:56:46 but it is not naturally intutitive at all 09:56:46 at least, i did not do SU MADDENING errors in them 09:57:02 but by patterns it is intuitive 09:57:04 basic, forth. not perl. 09:57:04 commands follow each other 09:57:14 i mean now classical baisc 09:57:16 not vb or such 09:57:22 they arent tbecasue of extensions 09:57:30 fire the Basic out of torpedo tube, like trash !! 09:57:45 but even you coudl write to computer text what to do 09:57:50 that woudl not be intuitive perhaps either 09:57:56 its culturally biased anyways 09:58:13 but it woudl be more intuitive, for those who can speak andunderstand language 09:58:25 but not "universally" intuitive 09:58:33 if anythign can be universally intuitive ever 09:58:44