00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.10.08 00:02:08 --- join: ez4 (~ez4@pcp01518726pcs.reding01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 00:03:40 kc5tja: nice :) 00:05:08 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Miranda@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 00:06:08 --- part: Serg_Penguin left #forth 00:08:20 --- join: wossname (~wossname@rn-v1w5a06.uwaterloo.ca) joined #forth 00:12:00 Herkamire: Unit tests keep failing on me though. Not sure what's happening. 00:14:37 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Miranda@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 00:15:13 --- part: Serg_Penguin left #forth 00:16:04 Got it. 00:16:09 Lots of silly mistakes. 00:16:13 Thank goodness for repeatable unit tests!! 00:16:22 --- join: colorg (r@core-dc-5-60.dynamic-dialup.coretel.net) joined #forth 00:16:42 ZO... 00:16:56 Ja? 00:18:27 This is what I had to do to do front-linked absolute address CFAs in eforth in Bash... 00:18:27 . 00:18:28 . 00:18:56 __CODE () { # ARGS... lex name label 00:18:56 # handrolled forward ref to absolute addresses 00:18:56 tfref=$((tfref+1)) 00:18:56 echo $tfref 00:18:56 aq ${CFA[tfref]} # CFA 00:18:56 aq $LFA # LFA 00:18:58 LFA=$H # for LFA in later word 00:19:00 _NAME=$H # for LATEST 00:19:02 ab $1 00:19:04 ascii $2 00:19:06 L $3 # 00:19:08 HL 00:19:10 CFA[tfref]=$H 00:19:12 } 00:23:29 --- quit: Herkamire ("bed") 00:23:46 plus a tfref=0 external to the macro 00:25:04 Interesting -- you use environment variables for assembler labels. :) 00:25:35 I am here because regular labels are a shade less direct. 00:26:04 L $3 isn't useable as an absolute addy 00:26:23 * kc5tja nods 00:27:35 so..... 00:27:35 . 00:27:36 . 00:27:44 ----------------------- 00:27:44 000005ee fb 05 00 00 e2 05 00 00 04 exit ASCII 00:27:44 000005fb (O) EXIT 00:27:44 000005fb 00:27:44 000005fb 81 306 04 00 00 00 + 4 to SI 00:27:45 00000601 8b 065 = @ BP to SI 00:27:47 00000603 81 305 04 00 00 00 + 4 to BP 00:27:49 00000609 ff 046 jump @ SI 00:27:51 ----------------------- 00:27:53 0000060b 15 06 00 00 f6 05 00 00 01 ! ASCII 00:27:55 00000615 (O) STORE 00:27:57 00000615 00:27:59 00000615 81 306 04 00 00 00 + 4 to SI 00:28:01 0000061b 8f 003 pull @ B 00:28:03 0000061d 133 pull B 00:28:05 0000061e ff 046 jump @ SI 00:28:07 ----------------------- 00:28:11 is an osimplay listing 00:28:16 and you can see the CFA and LFA 00:29:06 the 3-digit jobbies are octal 00:51:56 --- quit: ez4 (Remote closed the connection) 01:02:12 I hate it when you have an idea in your head, but for some reason you just can't seem to express it. 01:03:54 mweh? 01:04:00 bmmmmmmah? 01:04:23 kc5tja: heh, I get that 01:04:35 but usually in relation to existence 01:04:52 "Many things on my mind, words in the way" Sly Stone 01:10:55 colorg: Yes, totally. 01:11:21 Well, the word search code I've written isn't behaving too well, and I am thinking I'll need to start it over from scratch again. 01:11:42 * kc5tja wasn't sure how to code it with unit tests (since it's in the wee hours of the morning, despite being on a waking schedule, I'm still not intellectually with it yet) 01:11:44 what kind of word search? 01:11:50 dictionary lookup. 01:12:19 kc5tja: I'm completely useless on the midnight->8am shift 01:12:19 Fancy? Like with vocs and so on? 01:12:33 kc5tja: just a reactive sack of potatoes 01:12:37 =D 01:12:57 colorg: Right now, no. I'm just scanning an array. 01:13:00 Or, at least, TRYING to. 01:13:05 I can't possibly see why it's failing. 01:13:50 fridge: Yeah, me too. THis is why I often say, "Yeah, I'll try and get some coding done tonight!", only to waste the night away at homestarrunner.com or something. 01:14:20 h3sm has two FINDs. One regular one, and one for abbreviations that always goes to the base of the dictionary and keeps the shortest unique match 01:14:43 JET Thomas helped me with the latter idea 01:14:52 colorg: Eventually, my dictionary search code will also have two find words: one for the Forth vocabulary, and one for the compiler vocabulary. 01:15:06 ick. 01:15:43 But since I don't have a compiler yet implemented in the run-time, I don't have much need for a compiler search word. :) 01:15:49 It's one of the nastier basic routines in a forth 01:16:03 colorg: Yes, it is. 01:16:13 And it's very hard to test. 01:16:20 postpone can be hairy 01:16:41 I'm real proud of H3sm postone buddy 01:16:50 I'm not even sure I'm going to include a postpone. 01:17:35 I'm probably just going to have explicit COMPILE and [COMPILE] words, like the older Forth systems. 01:17:48 Also, there's the S" ..." EVALUATE text-substitution approach too. 01:19:38 It just occured to me that I have to handroll my stack pointer for osimplay eforth 01:19:49 Hmm...it's crashing at "fwli @," for some reason. >:( 01:19:53 kinda like that forward reference CFA 01:20:47 wtf is that? 01:23:39 fwli is a variable name (Forth Word List Index) and @, is the fetch word. 01:23:59 Remember this code is written for the cross-compiler; @, in the cross-compiler will be @ in the compiled Forth environment. 01:24:07 (once I get the interpreter running) 01:24:26 cross-compiling. ick. 01:25:33 cool. I have an osimplay state var lasthere I can set to the base of the stack 01:27:31 Now I remember why I like stc. You don't keep your own RP. 01:28:35 * kc5tja nods 01:28:39 My Forth is STC too. 01:29:25 There's only 2 hardware calls in eforth. HMMMMMmmmmmm 01:30:52 * kc5tja thinks he fixed the biggest bug in his find code. 01:30:59 Now it's a matter of getting it to recognize a word! 01:31:00 :) 01:33:33 yeehaw. I think I fixed the bugs. I'm sure there's a stack leak somewhere though. But a quick unit test ought to help locate/isolate that. 01:37:16 unix gives evry executable a separate stack memspace right? 01:37:27 I'm rusty 01:38:08 i.e. the only forth stack I have to provide space for is the data stack right? 01:38:36 sure. Unix gives Bash like a meg of stack. 01:38:49 SO..... 01:39:48 whew, been a while 01:54:58 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Miranda@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 01:57:28 Hi Serg 01:59:03 hi 01:59:20 * Serg_Penguin expected channel to blink like ICQ, but it just turns italic 01:59:30 on new message 02:00:37 now i read the book "religion of money", teeth-busting criticism of today's western civilisation and culture 02:01:30 :) 02:02:07 it's RU, i don't know EN trans8ion 02:02:31 teeth busting? 02:05:16 RU idiom of 'very hard criticism' 02:06:24 or teeth-(crushing,breaking,smashing) 02:11:34 colorg: Unix gives every executable a whole different address space all-together, yes. 02:12:20 * kc5tja likes that phrase -- teeth busting. :) 02:14:53 ha-ha ^)) 02:15:06 how many times your windows were shot out ? 02:15:07 w00t!! Name search indeed leaves no cruft on the stack! 02:15:24 Serg_Penguin: When I was living on Bleeker Street in Utica -- about once a week. 02:21:01 Ladies and gentlemen, I am pleased to announce that FTS/Forth 0.2.1 shall be on the website soon. It now has a minimally working word interpreter! 02:21:26 It still lacks support for numbers, however. But I have gotten it to successfully execute Hello and bye (note: case is sensitive, for now). 02:21:27 Neat. :) 02:21:59 Is the compiler doing any optimizations? 02:22:42 Let's see how well this will work. 02:22:52 * Robert tries to compile lynx on a Minix box 02:23:47 kc5tja: what ???? your home caught bullets once a week ??? 02:24:03 how terrific ! 02:24:06 No, the only optimization the compiler is performing is tail-call optimization. No other optimization is being performed. 02:24:33 * Serg_Penguin had never been under fire, despite all the recent crime in RU ;) 02:24:49 Serg_Penguin: Yep. It's all settled down now. But while I was living there, a crack-house was across the street, and there were two bars on either side of our house. 02:25:01 Well, I should say, it LOOKS like it's been settled down now. 02:27:16 Dude, I really need to consider getting a UPS for my computer. Even one that just lasts some 10 minutes. 02:27:25 We're having rolling blackouts again. 02:28:22 Pretty ironic that California of all places should suffer from that. 02:29:10 hehe ;)) Moscow never had blockouts, ex for real damage 02:29:16 blAckouts 02:29:54 I don't find it surprising at all; California is the richest state in the Union, and therefore, the most wasteful of our resources. 02:30:06 California still has that "magic goldrush" mentality, even after all these years. 02:30:29 kc5tja: Actually I was thinking of the high-tech industry. 02:31:09 Robert: Yes. High tech requires power. 02:31:19 And we can't afford to deliver the power for a variety of reasons. 02:31:39 This is one reason I want to get off the grid. 02:32:00 By doing so, I not only help the power company, I also free myself of power expenses. :) 02:33:11 That's one reason I want to develop my own computer running Forth -- reduced power consumption. 02:33:39 Serg_Penguin's references to DC and regen receivers interests me for the exact same reasons. 02:37:40 And although I use compact flourescents for my lights in my room, I'm further interested in adopting LED spot-lighting for further power savings. 02:39:34 i think of combining modern LED light w/ old hand-crank tungsen spotlight ;)) 02:39:49 to have hand-crank LED spotlight ;)) 02:39:56 Hey, that'd be cool, I guess. 02:40:28 Also, a hand-cranked radio receiver too. 02:40:34 newly-made hand-crank costs ~3$ here 02:40:56 no-o-o-o! radio must run from Ni-MH 02:41:15 Serg_Penguin: The problem with a NiMH battery is you need a power source to recharge it. 02:41:21 What if you don't have that power source? 02:41:56 hmm... why so ? nuke strike ? yet another revolution ? 02:43:20 Well, like I said, I want to bring myself as far off the grid power as possible. 02:43:43 The less money I spend on big power utilities, the more independent I am. 02:44:10 my parents are doing the same 02:44:16 growing own food 02:44:23 fridge: I *so* want to do that. 02:44:26 catch and store their own water 02:44:55 not sure what their plans are for power 02:44:57 Yeah, well, THAT will be kind of hard to do here in California. :) Southern California is a desert. 02:45:32 here power is cheap 02:45:36 OK, so in eforth SI is the current xt, SP is data, BP is the threader return stack pointer. 02:46:08 my aunt recently paid <20$ per month for EVERYTHING, incl. power 02:46:32 Serg_Penguin: Our house is paying around $150/month for power. 02:46:40 What else is likely to be dedicated to the Forth VM? 02:46:46 And rates will only go up with dwindling oil supplies. 02:47:01 hmm... how much do 1 KW cost ? 02:47:06 colorg: There might be a register used to cache the top of data stack. 02:47:08 yay for blackouts 02:47:36 kc5tja: ah yes, I un -#iffdef'ed it so there IS. 02:48:19 wow 02:48:24 I haven't been watching the news much 02:48:29 didn't realise oil had gone up 02:48:32 in B 03:00:50 Serg_Penguin: No idea. In June 99, our price was 10.2 cents per kWh. 03:01:11 Serg_Penguin: Now-a-days, our power utility bill is presumably closer to the 13 cent range. 03:01:17 (the graph predicted 11.3) 03:02:08 Therefore, the total cost of 1kW depends on how quickly it's consumed. 03:04:47 I remember, before the government stepped in to control the rising costs of "deregulated" utility costs, they were predicting it'd rise as high as 25 cents per kWh too. 03:08:04 heh 03:08:44 not sure how the government can justify the deregulation if it caused prices to go up 03:10:34 I dunno. 03:10:51 But the nationwide average for electricity is somewhere in the 7 to 8 cents range. So even at 13 cents, we're WAY high. 03:11:26 I think I'll set up a 4 register :o) 03:20:49 I stand corrected. We actually are paying about $0.26/kWh. 03:21:10 hell high ! 03:21:10 Up from, get this, $0.04/kWh in 2000. 03:21:14 So . . . you folks can do the math yourself. 03:21:15 :) 03:21:31 colorg: a 4 register? 03:21:49 Serg_Penguin: Yes. It's incredibly high. 03:21:53 Absurdly high, in fact. 03:24:12 4 occurs in a lot of code words. If you have a constant 4 register you get a slight win maybe. 03:24:30 colorg: Ahh, gotcha. 03:24:52 + byte 4 to BP is 3 bytes, + D to BP is 2. 03:28:14 so I just beat eforth by a hair :o) 03:28:26 * kc5tja nods 03:28:41 Once I get FTS/Forth self-hosting, one of my next big revisions for it is to implement additional optimizations. 03:29:06 But, I'd like to get FTS/Forth working under L4 and Linux before I persue those things. 03:29:14 eforth doesn't seem to have * or / in code. 03:30:03 The kernel is currently 8.5KB in size -- I suspect a large part of this is the sheer size of a lot of native code, inlined sequences. 03:30:10 or a shift. 03:30:38 What's FTS? 03:30:49 FTS/Forth is the Forth I'm developing. 03:30:53 FTS == Falvo Technical Solutions. 03:30:57 Falvo ah 03:31:01 http://www.falvotech.com 03:31:01 :) 03:55:14 --- join: crc (crc@137-pool1.ras11.nynyc-t.alerondial.net) joined #forth 04:04:38 He's got upshift 3 in code but not 2* :/ 04:04:55 He's got upshift 2 rather, in code but not 2* :/ 04:06:18 Yeah, I heard that eforth was a bit eccentric. :) 04:07:03 it's got about 42 code words at this point. The magic # seems to be about 65 04:07:33 I do about 80 with 3 stacks 04:11:10 see ya later 04:11:13 --- quit: colorg ("ircII EPIC4pre2 cLIeNUX. Can you say that?") 04:11:14 I have no idea what my word count is. 04:56:00 --- quit: wossname (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:11:04 --- quit: Serg_Penguin ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org") 05:19:42 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 05:19:42 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Herkamire 05:20:45 re Herkamire 05:21:15 hi kc5tja :) 05:21:32 how's FIND coming? 05:21:34 Herkamire: I got FTS/Forth to execute words from the "Forth command prompt." 05:21:44 nice :) 05:22:23 * kc5tja needs to re-implement the dictionary search code though, eventually. I won't do it just yet, but once I get the Forth and compiler dictionaries in place, I'll need to refactor the dictionary search code at the very least. 05:24:17 * Herkamire nots 05:25:12 this is one of the best milestones :) 05:27:16 Yep. 05:28:39 And I was thinking, since Io runs under L4 (see www.iol4.com), and my Forth will run under L4, maybe I can just get the two languages to work cooperatively in the same operating environment, providing an OS that is still minimal and meets my needs, and yet, still is appealing to others!! 05:28:55 BTW, I think I have a good name for FTS/Forth under L4 -- Forth/4. :) 05:29:00 What do you think? 05:29:45 hehe 05:40:48 --- quit: crc (Client Quit) 05:53:42 --- join: wossname (~wossname@rn-v1w5a06.uwaterloo.ca) joined #forth 06:56:45 --- quit: mur ("Reconnecting") 06:57:16 --- join: mur (~mur@mgw2.uiah.fi) joined #forth 07:20:08 --- quit: fridge (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:22:42 --- quit: Robert (Remote closed the connection) 07:31:26 --- join: Robert (~pink@c-bf5a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 07:40:33 ok, now I'm really going to improve herkforth 07:45:12 going to make it so I can change the length of data, and create new data objects in the editor 07:45:15 about time 07:48:11 Sure, I make my Forth so that it interprets "Hello" and "bye", and he has to "compete" by adding the cure for AIDS in his Forth. Sure, pity the poor. ;P 07:51:46 hehe 07:51:52 how long have you been working on yours? 07:53:48 oh, I guess I've only been working on mine for a year and a half 07:53:51 bit more I guess 07:54:37 I don't know how long I worked on asm stuff before I imported it into svn 07:55:13 hehe... still chuckling about the cure for aids 07:55:27 I just want to be able to type and edit strings man! 07:56:15 I've been working on mine for about the same period of time. 07:56:28 We started our respective projects about the same time. 07:56:57 Besides, I'm joking. 07:59:07 I know you're joking :) 07:59:40 I thought you're project was newer 08:00:00 cool cool 08:02:50 man, I've mostly forgotten how my bootstrapping process works 08:03:02 this is a good test for my coding style and editor :) 08:03:10 That just goes to show you how often I get burnt out working on my projects. 08:03:21 if I can figure out how it works quickly, then it's well organized, and the editor works well 08:03:53 kc5tja: I'm asuming you didn't work on fts nearly as much when the kestrel was looking promising 08:04:08 I have really hardly put any energy into other programming projects. 08:04:34 it hit me that I've only "finished" one programming project in my life... 08:04:45 and I've been trying hard ta make sure I see this one through 08:05:13 "finished" meaning done to the point that I can give it out to non-geeks and expect it to work properly 08:05:57 True, to a point. 08:06:15 Hey, I am going to try MenuetOS on my box, as well as IoL4. I'll be right back. Need to reboot for this. 08:06:29 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 08:19:27 --- join: mur_ (~mur@kyberias.uiah.fi) joined #forth 08:22:47 --- quit: mur (Read error: 238 (Connection timed out)) 08:44:10 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-75-242-200.san.rr.com) joined #forth 08:44:10 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 08:44:17 Back 08:44:37 Though I'll be crawling into bed in 15 minutes. 08:51:21 --- join: skylan_ (~sjh@vickesh01-4738.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 08:57:32 --- quit: wossname ("my system is chained to the circle of pain") 09:03:54 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 09:17:25 --- join: wossname (~wossname@rn-v1w5a06.uwaterloo.ca) joined #forth 09:17:30 --- join: mur (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 09:23:40 --- quit: mur_ (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 09:30:40 --- join: Robert_ (~pink@c-bf5a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 09:31:20 --- quit: Robert (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:32:43 --- nick: Robert_ -> Robert 09:32:53 --- quit: Robert (Nick collision from services.) 09:33:31 --- join: Robert (~pink@c-bf5a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 09:44:51 Off to bed. 09:50:08 --- join: tgunr (~davec@vsat-148-63-4-107.c001.g4.mrt.starband.net) joined #forth 09:56:56 --- join: Raystm2 (Rastm2@AC95A45D.ipt.aol.com) joined #forth 09:57:54 Hi Raystm2 09:59:00 Hello, Robert, How are you today ? 10:01:05 Could be worse... No school, and I got a chance to code. .) 10:02:09 --- quit: wossname (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 10:02:19 that's great! I have just returned to the channel after two days of intensive push to finish my c4thchess 0.5 and c4thches2. 10:02:37 0.5=.05 10:03:07 the first has a bug but I suspect I know what's wrong, just not how to fix :) 10:03:30 Neat :) I'm not a chess player, though. 10:04:13 nobody is anymore :) really . I just had a solution pop in head and had to try and works! :) 10:04:41 the c4thches2 is bug free and work fine. 10:04:56 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 10:05:58 Tim Neitz has offered to host the code, and Howerd Oakford has expressed intrest in it also. so I'm sorta exited about it. being my first published software work :) 10:07:19 oh hey and Robert, the thing can be adapted to other boardgames rather easily and I'll probly do card games next. 10:07:57 Hehe. 10:08:10 I don't play many board games at all. Gomoku would be the exception. ;) 10:08:17 took about a week in color4th. about 2 mo.s in gforth. might take a year in python .and a team in c. :) 10:08:38 I don't know that game. must be fun -- no ? 10:08:59 It's very simple, 5-in-a-row. Like tic-tac-toe, but with a 19x19 board. 10:09:07 I bet you've heard of it, under some other name. 10:09:26 In Swedish it's "luffarschack", which literally means "bum chess". :) 10:09:27 sorta like connect-4 ? 10:09:35 ha ha 10:09:39 Because all you need is pen & paper. 10:09:47 A bit like it, yes. 10:10:13 oh I think my daughter and I play that game . make boxes fill in initial ? 10:10:23 most wins ? 10:10:39 hi 10:10:54 Hey there qFox ! 10:11:28 you back on that project Robert? ;) 10:11:34 Raystm2: Hm, I don't think so. The first one with 5 of his own initials in a row wins. 10:11:40 qFox: Nah. 10:11:56 That code is safely backed up and thrown away now! 10:12:00 Robert: got ya okay 10:12:32 hehe 10:12:48 hehe 10:13:13 dang after two days of Moore-dvorak I can't type :) 10:13:31 e is where the d is :) 10:13:34 Hah. 10:13:48 hdhd 10:13:51 I tried dvorak...for a couple of hours. 10:13:54 It drove me nuts 10:14:42 I never thought I would till c4th but it's surprisingly fun to use. like a game controller. 10:15:08 Interesting 10:15:30 Do you types the words manually, or do the core words have their own keys? 10:15:32 type* 10:16:12 took about 45 min to get used to all the diff keyboards in c4th. you type them manually but they pack as you type and become the core words 10:16:37 if you make error in word you must retype whole word 10:16:45 Heh, OK. 10:16:46 cuz its packed 10:17:02 Convenient way to code? 10:17:29 but it's compiled and optimized and put into the place in RAM image 10:17:43 next re-load and it's active. 10:18:08 very fast to develop working code. 10:18:45 but your always backing up with two floppys swaping almost every change. 10:19:05 good if you could use HD too maybe spare. 10:19:28 I should test it seriously some day.. 10:20:44 some of us are working on ways to make the experiance more widely available. It truley is a treat to blow a weekend with and have a full understanding of just about the whole machine in one head. 10:21:15 That's how computer systems are supposed to be. :) 10:21:22 If it's realistic or not, I haven't figure out yet. 10:21:46 Mark Slicker and Howerd Oakford and others are working on net wide devel tools to make the experiance better. 10:22:38 "net wide"? 10:23:50 my idea is for a floppy image that can poll your system. determine the net attachment, connect on line. goto a autoresponder with the results of the poll. concatenate and make a custom image for your specific machine. and copy that back to the floppy so that on next boot your in a native c4th :) 10:24:37 Yeah you know connect on the web to other c4th users for team devel and comm. 10:24:56 block passing really. 10:25:15 That would be really cool, and I have thought about something similar. 10:25:32 I'm not 100% convinced the block model is good for general computing, though. 10:25:50 can't be that hard . e-mail autoresponder and a database and the polling image on floppy ? 10:26:24 The problem would be to actually get anything to hang out, in this world with a billion different video cards, and twice as many sound cards. 10:26:29 it's a start because that's the model in c4th, doesn't have to stay that way with development. 10:26:30 hand out* 10:28:14 download :) 10:28:45 the poller and a general c4th known to work on the widest amount of machines. 10:28:57 and the comm proggy 10:29:27 or a general kernel known to boot on the widest num of machines for that matter. 10:30:01 Yeah, but.. Getting the machine-specific drivers? 10:30:12 Just look at how many of those there are. 10:30:15 hell if its a download anyway just get direct from database right? 10:30:18 It would take AGES to port. 10:31:41 well theres two approaches to that too. offer machines that do already. or teach a course on line of the general concepts and the links to the manufacturers 10:32:40 if the tutorial is good anyone could bring up there own on there machine and get a lilttle more intimate 10:33:08 "If computer programmers get the memory allocation wrong, why are we letting the computer programmers do the memory allocation? The computer can do this. The world has moved on since the design of languages like Fortran and C." 10:33:08 10:33:08 "So for other newer languages, we have garbage collection, we have sensible memory allocation, and this means we can take things away from the programmer, so that providing the language has done it right, the programmer cannot make that mistake anymore. And this works out incredibly effectively when you look at the kind of bugs you get in software. Even when just doing it by getting programming interfaces right, we se 10:33:09 e huge improvements." 10:33:17 -- Alan Cox 10:35:00 Who here programs for the world. I program for myself and if you use it all the better. -- Ray St. Marie 10:35:11 he he 10:36:07 Raystm2: Yeah, better standardized hardware would be good... 10:36:59 any hardware must to be competitive, have a basic set of functions that they share in the archtitectures that they serve. those are to be exploited. 10:37:44 maybe you don't drive the newest games but then you can do otherthings well. 10:38:45 or maybe the newest games port to us someday like they do everybody else :) dreams 10:38:57 --- join: wossname (~wossname@rn-v1w5a06.uwaterloo.ca) joined #forth 10:39:50 that's when hardware complies. to public buying presure. follow that and devel for those devices. 10:43:09 Hehe 10:43:50 "public buying pressure", heh. You mean Microsoft ads telling the sheep what to buy? ;) 10:44:05 baaaaaaaa baaaaaaaaa 10:44:11 got one of those too damn 10:44:22 I r a cheap sheep 10:44:42 Heh 10:45:13 couldn't resist. they got the Blue Man Group Inside beating on PVC tubing. 10:45:19 Well, seriously, the number of people who know there aren't goblins running your computer is pretty small. And how many have even heard about Forth or compatibility problems? 10:46:04 And the number of your offspring shall be numbered with the stars in heaven -- 10:46:36 bible misquote 10:47:32 Pink Floyd - Sheep, there's a bible misquote to be proud of! 10:47:37 he he 10:48:32 seriously == sounds like teachers are needed and that's where you and i and the rest come in. doc your troubles with your sucesses and the students will get it. 10:49:30 people get here eventually. they see it and either someone they can relate to has made it interesting for them or they don't find that info and they quit it. 10:50:05 it takes many points of view to get the message to the wider audience. 10:51:09 and a lot of in your face money savings and performance trial wins 10:51:38 the next wave is ultra optimized. 10:52:01 leaving the past to fend for itself. 10:52:28 building on the sucesses and droping the don't do's 10:53:02 Perhaps... Either that, or things get even worse. :) 10:53:10 I gotta agree. 10:53:20 But I tend to be an optimist, even though I won't realistically believe this will be over soon. 10:53:29 he he me too . 10:55:44 I guess that many see forth as fractured. they are trying to see forth as a language but they see every one in it building there own language. forth is the language that we use to describe the differences between those custom systems and many just don't get that. "my 'does>' does this compared to x's that does 'that>' ". 10:57:25 when you write, your communicating your code to the future you or person that has to fix. you may make references like the one above to your reciever. 10:57:59 and that's the real uber lang of forth. 10:58:45 how do we create words that speak to the machine and ourselves in the future. that's the talent of the best coders. 10:59:04 they get more people interested. 10:59:32 tons of them in c and lisp and python. eloquent (sp?) coders. 11:00:24 I don't really see the "fractured" nature of Forth as a problem. 11:00:45 Perhaps if you were trying to use it as some sort of ultimate language, but most implementations seem to be rather specialized instead. 11:01:02 that's cuz your deep in it. most newbies might not wait as long as you to arrive at the assumption. 11:01:06 forth is more like a language for highly individualized commandos 11:01:19 he he 11:01:25 the arguments you see here about the definition of the simplest words :o 11:01:35 I don't know if this changed very much since I started coding Forth a couple of years ago. 11:01:42 he he 11:01:48 I came to Forth with a low-level point of view, really. 11:02:04 huh is that right? 11:02:10 So I wasn't afraid of implementation-specific details. In fact I enjoyed the freedom. 11:02:14 you a hardware guy? 11:02:57 Not really, I just liked playing with assembly language. I've become some of a hardware freak lately (esp. since I got my ham radio license), but back then it was just writing software. 11:03:58 Perhaps not the best way to do it, but I was new to programming, and only into it to have fun and see what I could do with the machines. Didn't care THAT much about the result, especially since I was totally isolated (and not just socially, I had no good internet either, so no other coders at all to talk to). 11:04:20 oh wow, I used to have a second class broadcasters licence, had to get it when i built a 10 w public radio station with the class in freshman electronics .( went to "special HS") 11:04:50 robert you are lying you were an elite coder when you started forth ;o 11:05:06 it is simply true that forth has ruined your c!!! 11:05:09 Isolated? are you in sparsly pop area ? 11:05:15 he he he 11:05:25 Raystm2: Not really, 30km from Stockholm. 11:05:38 Raystm2: But none of the other kids out here were coding. 11:05:48 oh mentally isolated ? 11:05:48 emotionally ? 11:06:54 That too, but I also had no connection to other coders, which is what I have today through IRC. 11:06:57 right I get that , glad to have the 'special' school when I was a kid. 6 area towns sent the smartest kids into lab situations in computing, design, electonics, metal fab, 20 more 11:08:13 Here they mostly supress people who try to learn on their own. :) 11:08:15