00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.10.03 00:08:46 --- quit: Sonarman ("leaving") 01:12:03 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 02:26:27 --- quit: crc (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:40:16 --- join: paintcan (~wossname@rn-v1w5a06.uwaterloo.ca) joined #forth 03:45:32 re paintcan 03:46:55 Morning 03:49:47 good morning! 04:39:52 Hmm...can anyone else see http://www.dilbert.com ? 04:40:32 re kc 04:49:45 re warp0b00 04:51:25 dilbert is dead 04:52:34 :~( 05:07:11 no one read dilbert anymore so they stopped doing it 05:12:54 Dilbert is a huge comic. I don't know where you got THAT idea from. 05:13:12 --- quit: warp0b00 (Remote closed the connection) 05:13:34 My sister dumped a few kilograms of comics (including Dilbert) on my floor. 05:13:53 people stopped reading it when scott adams revealed himself to be a transsexual communist spy 05:14:26 uhhh . . . yeah. Right. 05:14:36 And I'm the King of New York. 05:15:16 hey, cool 05:15:51 where's your castle 05:24:20 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 05:24:20 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Herkamire 05:32:31 Hi Herkamire 05:32:47 --- join: crc (crc@77-pool1.ras11.nynyc-t.alerondial.net) joined #forth 05:41:49 --- quit: paintcan (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 05:44:26 --- join: paintcan (~wossname@rn-v1w5a06.uwaterloo.ca) joined #forth 05:44:45 hi Robert :) 05:46:17 --- quit: crc ("Time for bed... Goodnight!") 05:49:13 oop. gotta go 05:49:26 See you later then :) 06:00:37 Well, that certainly was quick. 06:03:02 --- join: saon (~Ecoder@c-24-129-95-254.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 06:03:32 hello forthers 06:05:03 greetings 06:09:42 Hi sa 06:09:44 ib 06:09:46 Argh! 06:09:47 Hi saon 06:10:06 Have you made any progress? 06:13:00 some 06:13:23 i've played with allocating memory areas 06:13:50 but i can't figure out what the word "cells" is supposed to do 06:14:19 Multiplies with the word size. 06:14:30 So in a 16-bit Forth it's equivalent to 2* 06:14:36 On a 32-bit Forth, 4* 06:14:42 ah, i see 06:15:17 so, could i modify part of that feasibly to change the cell size of the elements of the array? 06:15:39 like different types in c 06:16:08 No; the size of a cell is intrinsic to the Forth -- it represents the size, in bytes, of the native CPU word size. 06:16:48 (the only exception is when running Forth on an 8-bit computer, where the cell is still 16-bits wide, because that's the smallest width that will contain an address on most 8-bit CPUs) 06:17:01 okay 06:17:01 But you can just as easily define similar words for making arrays of other things. 06:17:16 : FooBars 16 * ; 06:17:19 (for example) 06:17:28 assuming FooBars is expressed in only 16 bytes. 06:17:48 cool 06:18:04 More portably, : FooBars [ 4 cells ] literal * ; 06:18:33 I wrapped 4 cells inside square brackets so that the number is computed once (during compilation) instead of at run-time, everytime. Makes things go faster. 06:18:42 Especially if it is used a lot 06:18:47 Robert: As far as cells go, you are correct for byte oriented processors. Not true for processors that have a least addressable unit that is 16 or 32 bits. 06:19:39 Hyrax: Ah, OK. Never worked with any of those. 06:20:03 While technically true, I'm trying to keep it simple in my explanation. 06:21:28 kc5tja: 8 bit byte on most processors is the least addressable unit, so your explanation fine. 06:22:48 Robert: They can be a bit tricky, especially when trying to write portable code. 06:23:42 Plus there are ambiguities in how ANSI Forth handles more-than-8-bit-minimum-word-size architectures too, IIRC, so as far as I'm concerned, it's all pretty much moot. :) 06:23:54 Hyrax: Then I'll stay away from them in the future as well. ;) 06:25:37 Robert: If you stay away from Forth on DSPs, you won't have a problem. Portable code is not as important on them anyways, as they are special purpose. 06:26:07 Hyrax: Never touched a DSP. 06:32:00 * saon mucks around in linux 06:32:15 Having problems? 06:32:43 last night i wasted half an hour trying to mount my other hard-drive because i typed: "mount /dev/hdb /mnt/hd" instead of "mount /dev/hdb1 /mnt/hd" 06:32:50 and couldn't figure out what was wrong :/ 06:33:08 but i got it figured out and got all of my old interesting program code transferred 06:33:25 except there's one thing that concerns me 06:33:37 Heh. 06:34:07 in some of my c programs, gcc refuses to compile because of undefined references to sqrt and floor even though i have "#include " 06:34:25 is it different on *nix? 06:34:28 Is it a linker error or compilation error? 06:34:36 Because you'll need -lm for the linking. 06:35:15 hrmm, i was thinking it was a compilation error, but, it could be linking, brb 06:37:48 hrmm, well, -lm fixed the compilation problem, now i just need to revise the code since it's dumping random data from memory in parts of the program :/ 06:38:10 Hey, now that is always fun. :-) 06:38:32 like, it'll run and generate the primes, but when it goes to print them out, the last one on each line isn't actually part of what was sieved 06:38:44 Heh. 06:38:54 You're using -Wall, right? 06:39:03 So you don't get any stupid printf() format string errors. 06:39:08 ... 06:39:12 * saon slaps forehead 06:40:26 hrmm, it dumped an error saying "control reaches end of non-void function" 06:40:42 Forgot a return :) 06:40:48 Among other things too. -Wall I find can be annoying at times, because it'll gripe about seemingly trivial things. But believe me, in a big program especially, they're important. :) 06:41:31 i think the problem is with the display formatting routine i wrote, but, imma fix that return problem real quick just to see what it's deal is 06:41:35 At the high school programming classes the need for support dropped 50% after a guy started using -Wall. 06:41:48 And by 100% when he actually started READING the warnings. 06:42:58 lol 06:43:18 my high school offers no programming courses :'( it's terrible 06:43:34 We had some elementary C++, that's all. :) 06:43:37 i think there's maybe 4 programmers in the school out of 2k students 06:43:45 To be honest, I learnt much more by playing at home. 06:43:50 Heh. 06:44:02 and the others are ones that know basic c for programming a lego-mindstorms robot :/ 06:44:10 That's no fun to hear. 06:44:36 There were two programmers at my old school, me and the -Wall guy. 06:44:53 yeah, there's really very little interest in computers out here 06:44:53 And a few people who were forced to code by the school, but didn't enjoy it much. 06:45:15 Well, "out here" for me means near Stockholm. 06:45:19 i don't think anyone should code if they don't like coding, it's just a waste of time 06:45:29 Depends, sometimes it can be useful. 06:45:35 out here for me is northern florida 06:45:50 where nobody does anything except eat sleep and go to church 06:45:57 Hehe 06:45:58 Fun! 06:46:00 oh yeah, there's sports too 06:46:15 Every geek's favourite. 06:46:20 oh yes 06:46:33 my friend and i are starting a computer club just to see how many people will join 06:46:45 Over here we have that, with "church" replaced by "alcohol". 06:46:57 So hardly any better. 06:47:00 we're getting some old proliant's from a semi-local bank :) :) 06:47:20 Proliant? 06:47:30 compaq (now hp) servers 06:47:41 Cool 06:47:44 :D 06:47:54 I have my own computer club, most donations are from mom's job ;) 06:48:03 coolness 06:48:48 the problem my computer club faces right now is storage, there's no secure place to put computers and the school isn't willing to offer any 06:48:51 Oh, and my old school. 06:49:02 mostly because they don't particularly like me or the sponsoring teacher i think 06:49:12 I got an 80186 based CP/M computer and 500 floppies. :D 06:49:21 because we almost cost IT their jobs 06:49:29 Awww. 06:49:33 80186, w00t 06:49:40 * Robert has about 10 computers at his room. 06:49:48 Storage problem solved. 06:50:00 lol 06:50:10 i've got 4 in mine, but, they don't all work at the moment 06:50:10 Actualy it's not as bad as it sounds. 06:50:25 Hmm... I only think a few ones here are broken. 06:50:28 Robert: Sounds like the perfect machine to make a ham radio BBS with. :) 06:50:32 But only 3 are up and running. 06:50:34 lol 06:50:43 Also, are you sure its running CP/M on an 80186? 06:50:56 kc5tja: If I only could figure its hardware out - there is NO documentation. Yeah, CP/M-86 (version 2.1 or something). 06:51:13 i've got an old 386 around here somewhere for computer club, methinks the hd is broken though 06:51:13 Ahh! A rarity, dude! That product eventually became DR-DOS! 06:51:31 kc5tja: The company that made those computers went out of business like 20 years ago, and the ones who took over the project...hmm...no idea what happend to them. 06:51:35 kc5tja: :) 06:51:52 Yeah, it's pretty unique. Its main programming language is Comal. 06:51:57 CP/M-86 is MS-DOS compatible. 06:52:02 Comal -- not familiar with it. 06:52:10 Though the name very, very vaguely rings a bell. 06:52:14 But I usually use the Pascal IDE. 06:52:24 Comal, mix between Pascal and BASIC. 06:52:31 comal == dyslexic ocaml 06:52:48 Backwards compatible with BASIC, but with some elements from Pascal to make it less useless. 06:52:52 saon: Heh, right :) 06:53:25 I should see if I can get one of those things running again, I have some space in the corner. 06:53:32 lol 06:53:55 If I could figure out how to interface its RS232 port, I'd network it. 06:54:04 it'd be fun to make an old machine that used forth as it's main operating environment 06:54:16 "make an old machine"? :) 06:54:28 lol 06:54:39 I'm working at that, except I'm making a..new..system. 06:55:36 Got to see if I can get the block editor to work properly. 06:56:53 heh, my friend has an old AT&T UNIX PC in his room, running "UNIX 3.0" 06:57:05 i've been trying to figure out how to program on it 06:57:29 C 06:57:30 :) 06:57:34 it's no help that there aren't man pages or even descriptive help facilities 06:57:37 Guess what the first thing I lost when I learnt forth was? 06:57:43 My floppy with C64-Forth. :( 06:57:52 that sucks 06:58:05 Yeah, but my C128D lacks a monitor anyway. 06:58:05 i must learn to use ed 06:58:14 Hehe, have fun. 06:58:23 Doesn't it even have vi? 06:58:27 lol, nope 06:58:30 Wow. 06:58:37 ed/red is it, if i want a better one, i have to write it first 06:58:39 btw, the CP/M system only has ed. 06:58:55 And the editor in the Pascal IDE, which is hell of a lot better. 06:59:20 well, there's a really really crappy program called "word 1.0" which i believe microsoft made, but it's no good for program code 06:59:30 For the UNIX system? 06:59:40 yeah, very odd i thought 06:59:47 Cool. 07:00:10 the user has a gui and all, with some applications on it including a word-processor and paint program 07:00:28 but i just gained root on it and bypassed the gui 07:00:34 much more appealing to me that way 07:00:51 On a slow computer, that might be a good move. ;) 07:00:56 ah, the monochrome green command line :) 07:01:11 Since I moved all graphics to the other computer, I've stopped using X on this one. 07:01:15 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.103.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth 07:01:16 Which is very nice. 07:01:57 Hi warpzero 07:02:08 i like my X interface (standard svga, running fluxbox as the wm with my own personal theme) 07:02:14 it's very friendly for me 07:02:24 and minimalistic enough for me too 07:02:35 * saon hates using kde/gnome 07:02:42 xfce is a little better, but, not much 07:02:56 fluxbox/blackbox stays out of my face nicely 07:03:08 if only they had geoshell on linux 07:03:11 This is odd, the editor skips the first 8 bytes on _odd_ blocks. 07:03:13 I wouldn't mind KDE or Gnome if they didn't try to go all hog-wild with all that crazy-ass eye-candy. 07:03:15 hey Robert 07:03:22 I like WindowMaker. And I've grown an affinity to twm too. 07:03:26 kc5tja: i hear you on that 07:03:28 amiwm is still one of my favorites though. 07:03:38 I use icewm, because I like the Windows look. ;) 07:03:43 UUGHG! 07:03:45 * kc5tja vomits 07:03:50 kc5tja, i agree, all that eye-candy distracts me 07:03:50 Haha 07:04:10 i haven't used window-maker enough to decide whether i like it or not 07:04:13 At least use the OS/2 Warp 3 theme. The lines are cleaner and the color choice is superior. 07:05:14 but i LOVED geoshell on windows, i had my system tray on a bar, tasks on another, direct command line, and commonly used apps. i tucked them all against different parts of the screen so there was NOTHING on the screen until i wanted to put something there 07:05:27 just move the mouse to that particular edge for the bar to pop out with what i want 07:05:35 i miss having that 07:05:39 i like windowmaker because there are no F***ING BARS 07:06:06 anybody tried afterstep? 07:06:46 I've never used it, but I've heard WindowMaker was a better, more complete WM. 07:06:55 This was a while ago though. 07:07:14 that's what i've heard too 07:07:23 i just hate bars 07:07:37 icons 07:07:39 thats cool 07:07:47 bars NO NO NO NO NO NO 07:08:19 I find no real distinction between bars and arrangements of icons. 07:08:40 well id prefer neither 07:08:50 theres no reason for anything to be on your screen but windows 07:09:04 at least with icons its not taking a chunk out of your usable space 07:09:38 * kc5tja nods 07:10:47 i tend to use one fullscreened app per workspace anyway 07:11:06 so bars just piss me off 07:11:58 * kc5tja misses AmigaOS screens. 07:12:36 Kind of the same thing, where it's usually one application per screen (though not necessarily full screen windows, the effect is the same), and the screens themselves can be depth arranged and dragged up and down. 07:12:51 amiwm has screens, but it's just not the same thing. More a hack than a useful feature. 07:14:49 God darn it -- I need to find some folks to play some quality D&D with. I totally miss RPGing. 07:15:06 i hate rpgs 07:15:29 Too bad -- you really miss out. 07:15:49 bleh 07:15:53 some tabletops are good 07:16:00 but D&D sure aint one of them 07:16:01 tabletops? 07:16:05 LARP is horrible 07:16:15 Ummm..who said anything about LARP? :) 07:16:26 Sure as HELL not me. :) 07:16:38 and computerized RPGs suck even more 07:16:43 Not all of them. 07:16:48 But that's not what I want. 07:16:59 I prefer the face-to-face variety of RPGs. 07:17:11 like i said 07:17:15 They're more fun because you can argue with the GM and bribe him with food and stuff. 07:17:19 there are some good tabletop rpgs 07:17:28 D&D isn't one of them though 07:17:46 D&D is THE tabletop to play. Especially 3rd edition. 07:18:10 rpgs that are all about levels and monsters aren't fun 07:18:19 That depends. 07:18:31 * kc5tja would like to play a game based on The Window someday. 07:18:45 Window is a game system that looks really good, but isn't quite so hack-n-slash. 07:19:26 well im just not a big rpg fan 07:19:34 rpgs that are about solving problems are fun though 07:20:05 I solve problems all day at work. 07:20:09 I don't want to solve more when I get home. 07:20:45 bleh 07:20:53 yaea ya just wanna shoot sumthin huh 07:20:56 monsters-experience-level games are boring 07:21:07 if i want to shoot something ill play quake 3 07:21:48 Well, I don't wanna just shoot something either. 07:21:54 The fun of D&D comes from the player dynamics. 07:22:09 no the player dynamics are just annoying 07:22:15 warpzero: You're foolish. 07:22:22 NO YOU 07:22:32 The whole point of RPGing is to get together and have a good time. 07:22:47 i thought it was to win 07:22:47 :p 07:22:55 qFox: Winning is secondary. 07:23:01 Id rather program it's a more productive puzzel :) 07:23:29 warpzero: DON'T YELL AT ME. 07:23:53 kc5tja: BRUSH YOUR TEETH AND GO RIGHT TO BED 07:24:19 warpzero: Like I said, you're foolish. And your obvious attempts to make me upset won't work. So don't even try. 07:24:33 im not trying to make you upset 07:24:45 * Raystm2 remembers growing up abused :( 07:25:19 i dont understand how im foolish because i dont like RPGs 07:25:45 warpzero: I was responding to your "player dynamics are just annoying" comment. 07:26:00 they are 07:26:14 Well, (a) don't play, and (b) don't interfere with those who desire to play. 07:26:18 are they 07:26:27 lol 07:26:47 hey that's what my congressman say's 07:26:50 Because when I was playing D&D every week, I had some spectacular times with my friends. 07:27:20 well everyone ive ever played D&D with has been obnoxious 07:27:21 * Raystm2 remembers D&d fondly on long voyages 07:27:36 are they 07:27:49 Well, then you've been hanging with the wrong crowd then. 07:27:55 always or never 07:28:45 you really have to start at _the_ right age to benifit from the comradre 07:28:46 Either that, or you just don't know how to get into the gaming mindset (which isn't an offense; some people can't. Most of my family can't get into it at all either.) 07:28:55 Well, if I want to play a game kc5tja I just prefer something mindless like quake or DDR. 07:29:17 And if I want to hang out with my friends, I'll hang out with them. 07:29:21 Raystm2: I disagree. I was already 26 to 27 years old when I started. I hardly consider that "the" right age. Most RPGers start before they're teenagers. 07:29:51 there are many "right' ages -- mind sets -- same thing 07:29:53 warpzero: Oh, so playing a game of D&D with your friends doesn't constitute hanging out with them. Riiiight. 07:30:45 well ive never had fun playing D&D 07:30:49 so whatever 07:31:07 many kids program much better than me and I am not at thier programming age yet. 07:31:21 Well, there you go. I wouldn't blame the game; sounds like a personal problem to me. 07:31:30 i do blame the game 07:31:35 For what? 07:31:39 Because you can't interact with others? 07:32:00 I can interact with others just fine. 07:32:01 thats hardly fair 07:32:13 I meant in a gaming scenario. 07:32:13 The game makes people more obnoxious by virtue of levels and stuff. 07:32:20 More obnoxious how? 07:32:22 D&D takes a really creative group and if you didn't have fun you just didn't meet your group. 07:32:52 kc5tja: my character is a higher level than yours therefore my dick is bigger 07:33:03 he he 07:33:16 i seriously can't stand anything with levels in it 07:33:18 109 keys on his keyboard :) 07:33:37 shoot'em up's have levels 07:33:38 some rpgs everyone starts out the same and they stay that way 07:33:43 THOSE are good RPGs 07:33:48 warpzero: Dude, that's all meant in gest. C'mon -- WE do that to other programmers just because we program in Forth ALL THE TIME. But you don't complain about it here. 07:33:56 And it's not meant in any serious capacity anyway. 07:34:05 i just dont like levels 07:34:07 * Raystm2 re-educated thanx 07:34:46 i think that games should be about your skill not how many experience points you ahve 07:34:56 there are many levels of many kinds of education in this chat. 07:35:03 warpzero: But how do you judge your skills? 07:35:10 How can you even GAIN skills if you don't have experience? 07:35:22 I find my self low on some and high on others. 07:35:25 in the usual human way 07:35:25 XP is just a way of quantizing it. 07:35:35 warpzero: It *IS* the usual human way. 07:35:38 yeah but when you quantize it you just open this whole can of suck 07:35:58 came here to find people who know more than me so I have to be sh*t on by the elite every once in a while to get manna 07:36:10 n\p 07:36:15 Heheh -- programming mana. 07:36:18 just like d&d 07:36:21 Anyway, I gotta go home. 07:36:27 thanz 07:36:31 kc5tja: thats why i like starcraft and not warcraft 3 07:36:35 no friggin levels 07:36:40 Starcraft rocks too! 07:36:43 * kc5tja loves the game. 07:36:45 slowly take time kc5 no rush hour today. 07:37:00 kc5tja: well seeya 07:37:16 Raystm2: 82.5MPH is the speed I drive in my car. I already gave the reasons why: minimum specific fuel consumption. Besides, it **IS** rush hour. Right now. 07:38:30 hey I believe that with the kinds of modern street construction there is a perfect speed to carry the weight of the car smoothly thru the sinusoidal waves of the streets. 07:38:52 but I like to live too. 07:39:08 Fear is what kills. 07:39:13 and I need your knowledge so be careful 07:39:19 agreed 07:39:34 If you know how to handle the car, and you are confident in your abilities with the car, then you can handle yourself in accident situations. 07:39:54 * kc5tja has *avoided* more accidents by good sports car handling and judicious use of *acclereation* than I have otherwise. 07:39:56 agreed practice makes perfect 07:40:20 BTW, if you want to learn how to handle your car, attend and participate in autocross racing. 07:40:50 It's perfectly safe. You never exceed 80MPH, and unless you drive an SUV (which they won't let you, guaranteed), there is no way in hell you'll flip or roll the car. 07:40:53 No way. Just won't work. 07:40:54 you would sh*t your pants when I was driving. I've taked driving to new hights but now that I know how I'm more thoughtful to the other drivers 07:40:59 situational awarness is more important than being a rally car driver 07:41:19 zardon: Who said anything about rally car driving? 07:41:42 Autocross is when you're driving on tarmac, with turns coming at you some 4x to 8x faster than what an Indy car racer would experience at full speed. 07:41:50 The track is delineated with soft rubber road-cones. 07:42:10 sounds fun :) 07:42:12 In short, you learn how your car handles. 07:42:14 Oh, it IS fun. 07:42:17 VERY fun 07:42:20 worth cash 07:42:38 Hard on the tires though, so make sure you have cash to replace your tires more often. :) 07:42:44 a school comes with your first farrari.. 07:43:07 you have to be trained to operate. 07:43:10 As well it should 07:43:11 smart 07:43:16 agreed 07:43:29 you should know all about all your tools 07:43:43 Yep. 07:44:01 be safe bro 07:44:05 Anyway, peace. I'm going home, to bed. 07:47:50 zardon : agreed being able to read the road and anticipate and react with caution is the hallmark of excellent driving at any speed. 08:44:32 --- quit: paintcan (Read error: 242 (No route to host)) 09:20:52 --- join: paintcan (~wossname@rn-v1w5a06.uwaterloo.ca) joined #forth 09:25:08 hiya 09:25:13 --- nick: w0rk1ng_ch1k3n -> t3h_ch1k3n 09:35:47 --- join: crc (crc@207-pool1.ras11.nynyc-t.alerondial.net) joined #forth 10:50:59 hi 10:51:03 Hello slava 10:51:05 anybody familiar with the method of characteristics used to solve PDE's? 10:51:38 crc, what's new? 10:52:10 I just uploaded RetroForth 7.4 10:52:33 Nothing major much beyond that... 10:52:40 Nascar needs an automated system to time cars in pit road to fine drivers that can't survive at 55. 10:53:09 sorry just jumped in there :) 10:53:22 :-) 10:54:15 they havnt found a system they like yet ? oppertunity calling ? 10:56:11 forth and nascar. customizing speed demons unit 10:56:17 unite 10:57:36 slava: PDE's ? 10:58:39 Poly-dimentional Eulclidian universes? 10:58:54 oops Euclidian 10:59:36 is it a "have to ask..." problem ? 11:00:38 Partial Differential Equations ? 11:04:14 Pretty-Dumb-Exercise? :) 11:09:06 The general form of the time-independent, elliptic, scalar PDE is 11:09:11 -div( c*grad(u) ) + a*u = f 11:29:27 partial differential equation 11:37:08 okay thanx -- did not know until you said and I got educated cuz of it so thanx again:) 11:38:18 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@ppp-66-124-254-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 11:42:23 --- quit: saon ("Leaving") 11:43:32 is there a standard word for case-insensitive string comparision? 11:44:40 Checking ans please hold.......... 11:46:00 thanks. i already looked, but i may have missed it 11:46:12 i don't recall there being one, though. just thought i'd ask 11:46:48 okay me neither. probubly a process more that a standard word. 11:47:01 What are you up against? 11:47:31 are you comparing ascii chars? 11:48:32 yeah. i guess i'll just convert one of them to lowercase first 11:49:59 yeah just adding (what 20h ?) and subtracting the dif and comparing twice might be a general solution . ? . ? 11:51:13 yeah 12:01:07 sonarman: I had a thought . no really I did. You might could use 'abs' if you set the values right then 'abs' would always return the match. dykwim? 12:03:01 hmm... no, i don't follow 12:05:28 well you know how abs always returns the positive value of negative or positive numbers given to it. subtract a number from the letter your comareing that makes it - if uppercase and + if lower then abs then add the original constant back in to always get the lower case . get it ? 12:06:34 I guess the constant would be what ever is before lower case 'a'. 12:09:39 ah, i see now 12:09:40 : >upc dup 'a - abs + ; 12:10:52 thanks, but how is that better than : >upc $DF and ; ?:) 12:12:14 I didn't think of it that's why :) 12:12:22 he he good job! :) 12:13:19 :) 12:14:38 only problem is that that borks up some non-alphabetic characters 12:15:18 --- join: swsch_ (~stefan@p5091E56C.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 12:15:45