00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.10.02 00:10:02 I may be totally wrong, but IIRC FPU's do their calculations with 64 bit numbers 00:10:16 following some IEEE standard I can't remember at all 00:19:24 IEEE is just a representation standard. FPUs are free to use any internal representation they want. 00:19:33 Intel's FPUs, for example, use 80-bit wide numbers. 00:23:36 see how wrong I were? :-) time for another coffee ... 00:47:38 iirc ppc does 80-bit FP too, but when you store to memory, it get's truncated 00:48:00 but I suppose for these attractors, you wouldn't need to go to memory ever 00:49:12 herkamire: I just tried your code with swiftforth's floating point routines 00:49:26 did it work? 00:49:31 and it works ... so it's probably the sin precision 00:50:06 swsch: thanks :) 00:51:14 wait a minute... if the OS swapps our process out, it dumps all your registers to memory right? 00:51:28 and then brings them back when it swaps you back in 00:51:36 the kids will love it :-) 00:52:02 and on a pre-emptive multitasking system this could happen at any time 00:52:42 So this means that our 80-bit FP registers could get rounded to 64 at any time right? 00:53:08 I don't think so. 00:53:25 The "save as 64 bit" is probably an option to allow 00:53:35 interfacing with IEEE compliant software packages 00:53:52 I'm very sure that there must be a way to store the 80 bit FPs to mem 00:54:38 Herkamire: The Intel FPUs stores its state in full 80-bit precision. 00:54:58 kc5tja: cool. 00:55:07 When you load a 32-bit FP value or a 64-bit FP value, it's always up-converted to 80-bits. 00:55:27 is there an instruction to write a 80-bit fp register to memory? 00:55:27 The PowerPC FPUs, IIRC, do work only in 64 bit width. But I'm not too sure on that. I don't know the technical details of the PPC FPU. 00:55:37 could be ppc is 64 00:55:40 Herkamire: Of course. How else does it save its state? :) 00:55:45 I think it's more though 00:56:08 kc5tja: I thought maybe there was some fancy "save all fp registers" instruction or something rediculously high level 00:56:47 I found some silly high-level cisc instructions in PPC when I was reading through a ppc asm book 00:58:34 like lmw (load multiple word) which loads x consecutive int registers from memory 00:58:37 Herkamire: There is that too. :-) 00:59:09 you specify the number of bytes to load, and it doesn't even have to be a multiple of 4 01:00:31 "The PowerPC architecture cautions programmers that some implementations may run this instruction with greater latency (perhaps much greater) than a sequence of individual load/store instructions that produce the same results." 01:01:13 I remember that later m68k had something similar, too. with the same caution. 01:01:39 I haven't read the sections about FP yet. 01:01:44 I'll probably have to sometime 01:02:47 I'm more interested in the vector unit and making some fast routines to do 128 and maybe 256-bit math 01:02:48 movem instruction. And it was substantially more powerful than the PowerPC equivalent actually. 01:03:11 I don't think the vector instructions work on words that big. 01:03:17 ppc, being RISC isn't supposed to have stuff like that at all. 01:03:22 (e.g., a single 256-bit FP value) 01:03:41 right. the vector unit doesn't to values bigger that 32 bits 01:04:05 Altivec? That's silly; I seem to recall it could pack 2 64-bit values in a single Altivec register. 01:04:09 I was thinking along the lines of arbitrary precision math functions 01:04:28 I'm not sure about 2 64-bit values 01:05:12 except I might just implement one high precision, and not go arbitrary 01:07:55 bedtime here 01:07:59 night 01:08:19 --- quit: Herkamire ("bed") 01:09:17 --- join: OrngeTide (orange@rm-f.net) joined #forth 01:21:32 --- quit: OrngeTide (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:21:32 --- quit: warpzero (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:21:32 --- quit: kc5tja (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:21:32 --- quit: Fractal (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:21:37 --- quit: Teratogen (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:21:40 --- quit: I440r_ (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:21:40 --- quit: ianp (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:21:40 --- quit: skylan (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:23:07 --- join: skylan (~sjh@vickesh01-4677.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 01:23:32 --- join: OrngeTide (orange@rm-f.net) joined #forth 01:27:41 --- join: I440r_ (~mark4@216-110-82-59.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 01:29:16 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.103.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth 01:30:57 --- join: Teratogen (~leontopod@intertwingled.net) joined #forth 01:31:52 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-75-242-200.san.rr.com) joined #forth 01:36:47 wtf? 01:36:57 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 01:37:10 --- join: imaginator (~George@georgeps.dsl.xmission.com) joined #forth 01:37:17 cool ... 01:37:30 I didn't know that cursing at ChanServ gives you operator status :-) 01:39:12 Heheheh :D 01:46:19 God, not now. 01:46:22 * kc5tja is getting sick. 01:46:29 The back of my throat is getting all inflamed now. :( 01:46:55 Next up, just because I know how my body will respond to this ailment, post-nasal drip and sore throat. 01:46:58 >:( 02:01:55 I'm with you, only two days ahead :-/ 02:02:14 I so don't want to be here. 02:02:37 #forth is not the worst place, if you've got the flu 02:02:41 When I leave work, I'm going to go to the supermarket, and pick up either a big box of strawberries, or invest in some quality, high-pulp OJ. 02:03:02 "I so don't want to be here." == "I so don't want to be working." 02:03:08 :-) 02:03:40 How many kids are waiting for you at home? 02:03:48 Seriously, I want to be home, playing with my ham radio. 02:03:52 0. 02:04:01 I have no family. 02:04:04 well, then you have a point 02:04:32 Sometimes I enjoy the calmness of the workplace 02:04:50 Yes, sometimes. 02:04:53 with only a complete hydraulics plant besides me 02:04:54 But not when you're sick. 02:05:15 * kc5tja is starting to get unusually drowsy too. 02:05:22 I wonder if I'm getting a fever. 02:05:30 drowsy? 02:05:42 car? public transport? 02:06:12 perhaps you should make your way home while you still can. 02:06:19 Car. I'm awake enough to drive. 02:06:21 trust me, my wife is a MD :-) 02:06:58 This is only now starting to come on. 02:07:13 If it gets worse by tomorrow, I'll have to purchase some Dayquil or something. 02:07:18 * kc5tja cannot afford to be sick, even one day. 02:08:05 can you afford to wreck your car due to a sneezing attack and spend a week in hospital? 02:08:52 almost happened to me two months ago. 02:08:52 Since that isn't going to happen, it's non sequitor. 02:08:53 As I indicated, I'm getting a sore throat, not an itchy nose. 02:09:06 Well, don't sneeze and drive. :) 02:09:19 Lots of lag. I'm probably going to get disconnected again. >:( 02:09:22 NOW he tells me :-) 02:09:52 Now I tell you what? I already said that the next things that will happen will be post-nasal drip and sore throat. :) 02:09:57 Scroll up if you don't believe me. 02:10:19 Now he tells me to not sneeze and drive. :-) 02:10:25 Ahh 02:11:50 * kc5tja sighs -- I wish our FAQ system was replaced with a wiki here. 02:11:58 That would be *sweet*. 02:13:52 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:19:23 you know 02:19:26 i really dont like wikis 02:19:49 Wikis rock. 02:26:16 well 02:26:17 goodnight kc5tja 02:26:30 dream wiki dreams 02:26:56 --- join: fridge (~matt@dsl-220-253-75-187.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 02:27:17 A wiki is only as good as the people that contribute to it. 02:27:53 OIC 02:28:18 I had to reinstall my linux machine today 02:28:19 It's like how #Forth is only as good as the programmers that chat here. 02:28:35 I got hacked =( 02:28:49 I chose ubuntu instead of debian 02:29:02 What is ubuntu? 02:29:27 ubuntulinux.org, it is based off debian 02:29:50 but the installation is a lot nicer, it detects and configured everything I had 02:32:26 What server program was hacked? 02:34:38 heh, it was my own fault 02:34:50 root pw was in dictionary 02:34:55 lol. 02:35:05 most of the time I'm good with having passwords that look like line noise 02:35:12 that was the only exception 02:35:16 and it bit me in the arse 02:35:18 and they cought it :) 02:35:25 oh well, lessons learnt 02:35:33 Not your fault. The flaw is in the others, not you. 02:35:41 they downloaded some irc bots 02:35:47 and irc bouncers 02:35:54 at least you got free software :p 02:36:01 they'd only been in about 4 hours when I noticed 02:36:30 odd thing 02:36:38 the .bash_history was intact 02:36:48 with one of the last operations being rm .bash_history 02:36:53 it didn't seem to work ;) 02:37:11 at least they tried 02:37:26 i would think a problem with rights, but if they have root.. 02:37:28 had 02:38:31 So they got in through sshd? How did they end up doing a dictionary attack if the login is denied and a delay occurs? 02:38:52 I dunnot 02:39:07 there was about 6000 'failed password for root' entries in the logs 02:39:10 * imaginator wonders if sshd starts denial of IP addresses or ranges after a while. That might be a neat trick. 02:39:20 what word did you use that was in their dictionary anyways? 02:39:27 diamond 02:39:42 lol, okay next time at least start with a z ;) 02:39:56 it was changed once to let my gf shutdown the machine 02:39:56 zztop 02:39:59 :p 02:40:00 and never changed back 02:40:07 ah 02:40:28 it'll be more like eiF8fielbai5ohThooyai8Ji 02:40:33 heh 02:41:07 i hate those passwords, i never use real words though (for important stuff...), but most easyaccess things arent exactly complicated 02:41:24 as a result i hate those password format enforced logins 02:41:44 "must contain at least one upper, on lowercase, and one number" 02:42:03 and at least 6 or 8 chars 02:44:40 I also usually turn off root logins via ssh altogether 02:45:09 just never bothered to apply my checklists to my home machine 02:45:10 isnt that done by default? 02:45:17 no 02:45:19 oh 02:45:21 * kc5tja uses computer-generated, fully randomized passwords a lot. 02:45:21 heh ok 02:45:33 I use easy-to-remember passwords only for my low-priority stuff. 02:45:36 kc5tja, yeah, I usually do 02:45:50 this was just one that had been left for about 5 years 02:45:51 kc5tja> so you have either a good mem, or a memo containing these passes? :\ 02:46:07 just never occured to me to change it 02:46:46 I use a program on a palm pilot that uses a master pw 02:47:09 to store a whole heap of different passwords 02:47:13 right 02:47:35 qFox: I've been using the same set of passwords for the last 12 years. 02:47:47 Not a one has been able to crack them. 02:48:05 that wasnt my question though :) 02:48:12 I just memorized two "seed" passwords, and then the various methods of permuting them to arrive at other passwords. 02:48:27 right 02:48:40 The mental requirements are quite minimal. 02:57:31 --- join: crc (crc@45-pool1.ras11.nynyc-t.alerondial.net) joined #forth 03:25:00 --- quit: imaginator (".") 03:25:21 --- join: ianp (~ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 03:25:29 --- join: Fractal (jah@selling.kernels.to.linus.torvalds.at.hcsw.org) joined #forth 03:30:20 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@203.148.241.62) joined #forth 04:34:09 --- quit: crc ("Time for bed... Goodnight!") 06:07:53 --- quit: qFox ("this quit is sponsored by somebody!") 06:08:01 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 07:10:41 Going home. 07:49:37 back 07:52:11 Hi :) 07:53:25 --- quit: tgunr (Read error: 232 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:12:22 --- join: saon (Ecoder@c-24-129-95-254.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 09:22:29 --- join: thefox (~fox@adsl-68-121-160-4.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) joined #forth 09:27:38 Hi, thefox 09:27:47 hi 09:28:12 hi thefox 09:28:20 I was just quoting an, er, "politically incorrect essay" of yours in a work I do for school. 09:28:32 thefox, is the source of your forth gui online anywhere? (maybe i asked already i can't recall :) 09:28:42 thefox, the one that ran inside the mouse 09:29:57 no, I just haven't been around to it for a while, working on newer stuff can be very time intensive. 09:31:06 I do plan to post some screen shots, source, etc. sometime. I have almost been neglecting my site. The folks I am working with don't want me to make too much public and even asked that I take some stuff down. 09:31:46 But I will post more docs and source from some of the older projects, in fact I have some other upgrades I plan to add to that proj just for fun. 09:39:18 OK, bedtime for me. 09:39:25 Night 09:39:31 have there been any news or particularly interesting discussions here recently? 09:40:27 hey thefox :) 09:40:27 thefox: Some flamewars about comments vs. self-commenting code, in case you haven't got enough of that debate. Otherwise, some people have made progress on their Forth(ish) languages, like slava's factor. 09:41:01 isforth has been ported to both freebsd AND linux-ppc 09:41:07 almost ready to release too 09:41:19 just consolodating some of the changes into all versions 09:41:20 I440r_: Who did the PPC port? 09:41:21 I have been writing a lot of documentation recently. Write a few lines of code, write a few pages of documentation. 09:41:25 tathi 09:41:41 i need to continue with my documentation too 09:41:45 I440r_: Cool. In case I'd ever get one of those computers. 09:45:04 Any opinions on the eb and flow in c.l.f? I think it has been more civil and open, but I still see a very high percentage of threads that just make me cringe. 09:45:22 Some more than others. 09:45:50 clf is mostly blah these days, very little of interest in there 09:46:00 I don't read it at all 09:46:14 I did enjoy seeing Elizabeth post the story about how they got everyone fired at one company by accident. 09:46:24 theres more talk in here than on clf 09:46:42 lol i missed that one! 09:46:48 Heh, sounds like I missed something then. 09:47:22 They got called in to help with a project that had several man months invested and wasn't getting anywhere. They did their 09:48:14 magic and did it in three days. Later they learned that they manager who had called them in and all the programming staff had been fired because Forth Inc. had shown them up so badly. 09:48:34 lol 09:48:57 Some people have strong emotional reasons for really not liking Forth. The problem is that it is too good. 09:49:18 Of course too good, is very very bad for people who don't want to be shown up. 09:50:05 thefox: hi! :) 09:50:14 thefox: any progress on aha? 09:50:26 thefox: Did she mention what tools the previous programmers had used? 09:51:02 I got Chuck to tell me some untold stories about the early days at Forth Inc. Apparently Elizabeth had the business sense and learned to seriously downplay what Chuck was really doing and charge for enough hours to prevent people from getting fired for being shown up too much. 09:51:23 lol 09:52:10 does chuck have any interests in forth inc any more ? 09:52:22 So I think it is funny that people think she must exagerate on the productivity stories when according to Chuck they learned not to admit that some multimonth projects were really done in a couple of days. 09:53:01 hehe. 09:53:21 the power of non-bloat. Its magic :) 09:53:52 No. You can read her comments in the google archives from this week. Bernd had mentioned that I had told stories about Scott Adams and Dilbert but confused Pacific Bell with Packard Bell. 09:54:15 thefox you know scot adams ? 09:54:22 he as absolutely one of my heros :) 09:55:04 worked as a bank teller and got held up at gunpoint TWICE!!!! lol 09:55:27 I corrected him and mentioned some of the waste and low productivity problems that I had seen at Pac Bell and Bank of America. Elizabeth then offered a story about how Forth Inc. got everyone fired on one job by being too politically incorrect and showing up the employees. 09:55:47 --- join: zer0`` (email@host217-42-111-133.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 09:56:26 I have always said that as a consultant that is part of the job, don't every say, "I know everyone here has already wasted two weeks each on this project but I expect that I can do it in ten minutes." 09:57:02 you wouldn't believe how much time is wasted in large corporate java projects 09:57:17 Instead you have to cheerfully say that you think you can get it done before the deadline now looming only two weeks away. Go home, do it in ten minutes, test it very well for a day or two. Deliver in less than a week. 09:58:10 unless your working for a company that already uses forth :) 09:58:28 das works for the company in longivew texas i was contracted to - they use forth exclusivly 09:58:53 they even inherited a c based product from a company merger and then ported that to forth 09:59:05 I440r, any notable savings in lines of code or performance? 09:59:16 Apparently in the early days Forth Inc. was sometimes too honest about their productivity. They admit to the first 10x but kept the second 10x a secret. So today many Forth programmers don't believe a second 10x is possible or ever existed. 09:59:29 slava dont know. ENORMOUS savings on maintainabiltiy tho 09:59:48 and i consider that to be the MOST important thing 10:00:05 it can be huge and klunky for all i care. as long as i can maintain it im happy 10:00:17 super small/fast/OBFUSCATEED code is just JUNK 10:00:34 as long as corporate IT INSISTS on huge teams of mediocre programmers with a few 'architects' leading, i don't think forth and lisp will gain much traction 10:01:27 if you have 100 people who can barely understand the benefit of a subroutine -vs- copy and paste.... 10:01:33 yes, and I don't see that as a big problem. 10:01:50 some fundamental changes are needed in the industry, i think 10:01:55 * t3h_ch1k3n recommends "XP installed" 10:02:01 the industry wont change 10:02:05 too many projects fail, or miss deadlines, or are cut back etc 10:03:30 before compiler: 10:03:31 Timing [ 30 fib ] 10:03:31 2077 10:03:36 after 10:03:36 either that, or they have ONE really good programmer who does everything 10:03:37 Timing [ 30 fib ] 10:03:37 389 10:03:40 computer 'science' is in its infancy, it is more a black art today and mostly marketplace hype. The main purpose of a PC is promote a PC. It is communication media and the message is THIS IS COMPUTING. 10:04:28 thefox, actually i think computer science is slowly maturing -- we have sophisticated algorithms -- but software engineering is at the 'scratch glyphs on cave wall' stage 10:04:36 my dad is the sole coder for his company, and he wants it that way, because everybody thats been trying to help him has just been sucky 10:04:41 and got things done even slower 10:05:04 The industry has momentun and will not make the kind of major changein direction that some of us would like to see. But we can create the niche that we want, or we work under that assumption and keep trying. 10:06:15 --- join: tgunr (~davec@vsat-148-63-4-107.c001.g4.mrt.starband.net) joined #forth 10:08:38 I have been working on an essay about why Forth is so niche and that the problem is not with Forth. It is a problem that modern civilization is struggling with and IMHO is characterized by the mosly linear concepts implemented in mostly linear algorithms in mostly linear computers. 10:09:18 forth is non-linear? :) 10:09:29 or rather the development process with forth? 10:10:10 Modern civilization greatly favors and over emphasises the use the left brain, linear, proceedural, method oriented, and most importantly, capable of operating with a very narrow focus. 10:10:18 slava: I'd hope 'people who can barely understand the benefit of a subroutine -vs- copy and paste' are far below mediocre 10:10:37 (and I'm rarely accused of optimism..) 10:10:50 Only about 2 or 3 percent of adults in modern civilization maintain a fair balance between right and left brain activity, we call them 10:10:54 ... creative people. 10:11:33 hefner, he he 10:12:07 People who want limited scope, who enjoy being a cog in big machine, who like to be yoked in sync with the rest of the team an only have to look at the road right in front of them can only deal with linear tools. 10:13:13 So left brain activites, like those promoted in schools, like literacy itself, are a good match to C and Java. But Forth allows someone to step outside of the box, less rules, more right brain activity is possible. 10:14:03 More balanced brain activity is possible. Many people working with 'super learning' claim that getting both sides of the brain operating together can result in a 10x improvement. 10:14:09 I'm about as creative as your average hamster.. I'm probably in the wrong channel. 10:14:38 average hamster.. 10:14:41 And the right side of the brain is the only side that can 'get it.' The left side will dismiss these concepts as not-linear, not important, not scientific.\ 10:14:50 qFox: Hoi. :) 10:15:09 It can't get it. But people who like Forth tend to be that 2% that we call creative. They want out of the box. 10:16:02 So the problem is not with Forth but with a culture in transit as right brain activity is on the rise in our culture. Electronic media foster right brain activity, unless you are a computer programmer. ;-) 10:16:21 in that case squeak must be the ultimate right-brain programming tool ;) 10:16:43 which would neatly explain, why so few people get it. 10:16:46 So to me the question is not how do we change Forth to make it appeal to the 98% who prefer C? But rather how do we get more than 2% of the 10:18:09 people in our culture to cultivate their creative brain activity? Forth will remain a niche language as long as only a couple percent of people are comfortable with the big picture, with getting outside the box, with experimentation and creativity. Most people are happy with a job on the assembly line. ;-) 10:18:42 yup. 10:18:56 * Robert will try to avoid that line. 10:19:20 * t3h_ch1k3n laughs at the average hamster 10:19:24 :( 10:19:27 Logo, LISP, and Forth are examples of languages that require more right brain activity, more balanced brain activity than say C. 10:19:52 thefox: What do you think about more complex functional languages (Haskell, ML etc.)? 10:20:05 thefox: what about SML or Ocaml etc. 10:20:12 argh robtrob 10:20:15 :) 10:20:38 average hamster? I like to think of C programmers as Cockroaches 10:20:46 das: Haha 10:20:53 i'm a cockroach? :) 10:20:56 das: How terribly kind of you. 10:20:57 I am not an expert on those languages, nor have I found any research about brain activity in those languages. I have read that LOGO fosters right brain as well as left brain activity, and more than other languages. 10:21:34 thefox: why should "right brain languages" appeal to the majority? If I compare them to other "RB" activities, I'd see them like oil painting compared to pencil dabbling. 10:21:38 I believe that LOGO and Forth and LISP all can provide a system view with lots of flexibility. Forth is the least boxed in because it is the simplest. 10:21:44 Just because there are more of them than us does not mean they are correct 10:22:18 I suspect that haskel and ML and Ocamml also require more right brain activity. Parallel thinking is right brain. 10:22:35 das: I don't see how that makes them annoying bugs you stomp on, but of you're they don't have to be right because they're many. 10:23:04 ...of course you're right, ... * 10:23:16 Robert, it is the latter 10:23:44 swsch: right brain oriented languages do not appeal to the majority. The majority prefers freedom from thought and a more structured environment. 10:23:52 often somebody uses C not because they feel its 'correct' but because it solves a problem 10:24:12 and because everybody else uses it and "OMG I CAN CODE C++ I AM SO COOOL" 10:24:17 I know, I used to be one of those. 10:24:32 And then along came Robtrob and showed me Forth :) 10:24:38 s/Robtrob/Robert 10:25:03 I did? 10:25:10 Heh, cool. 10:25:21 It is not a matter of correct or not correct. We evolved bi-cameral brains to do both in parallel, modern civilization with its emphasis on literacy is dominated by left brain. This makes it hard for people to see the big picture today. 10:26:02 slava, well I program C as well, I just don't buy into because that is the language everyone else uses, it is the one we must use. 10:26:24 Some arts have exercises to foster right brain activity to counter overly left brain thinking and to get a more balanced brain function with a higher functionality. Hey these things are specialized and both are important. 10:26:39 das, C is relatively portable, good compilers exist 10:26:52 thefox: IMO it's more akin to avoiding strenuous work. If you get paid enough for being a mediocre mainstream programmer, why should you take the burden to become an excellent forth programmer? And judging by my experiences, you need a lot more practice with "free" languages to work serious magic, to be considered creative. 10:27:12 People who don't feel compelled to do what everyone else is doing are more likely to be attracted to Forth. 10:27:32 If there is a problem with popularity of Forth I see it as really a cultural problem, most people are sheep. 10:27:56 * swsch gets some medicine for daughter 10:28:35 It might be nice to have a few more of them be willing to try getting outside of the box. But for those of us that prefer it there Forth's niche nature is not a problem. 10:28:45 slava, I agree, I use C quite a bit, I just don't beleive that because many others use it for a certain type of work, that everyone must. In embedded systems where portability is not as much of and issue, Forth is often the better tool for the job. 10:29:34 das, sure i agree that forth is better than C in many cases, but you can't simply discount C 10:29:55 das, my interpreter compiles without modifications on a large number of *nixes, 32 and 64-bit, i don't think this would be possible with any other language 10:30:14 One of the things that I enjoy about SVFIG meetins is that half the people probably have an IQ of 150 or higher. Hey, is it really a problem that Forth appeals to only a couple percent if for the most part they are the more intelligent and creative 2% of our human population? 10:31:15 Anyway, this one reason why I find all the 'I love -insert-crap-language-name- and it is popular. How can we make Forth more popular? Make it ... 10:31:50 slava: I don't discount it. Like I said, I use it where it is the better tool for the job. For many things, Forth is not a good fit. I just don't like the attitude many have that because many know C, it should be used everywhere, even where Forth is a much better tool for the job. 10:33:24 slava: I don't used interpreter Forth's much any more. Most of the Forth work I do now is natively compiled. 10:37:53 well guys, I think I will go do some real work. Been fun visiting #forth. Chat you later. 10:38:12 bye thefox 10:38:44 thefox any chance chuck can comne back in here any time ? 10:39:54 swsch: They question is why should some programmers strive for the best, for perfection, perhaps to a degree viewed as excessive by the majority? 10:40:45 Most people don't, and are happy to do a less challanging more reliable thing to make a living. There is nothing wrong with that. Forth is there to appeal to those who want to go that way. 10:41:33 I see it as no different than any other art. Some people will devote their lives to obsessive practice in a effort to seek perfection in their art. 10:41:39 perhaps because the can't draw a straight line or sing a clean note and need something to compensate? Because they might have become artists, if they had not become distracted by bits and bytes? 10:43:07 Most people are not like that. They don't want that, they don't like that, only a few percent even care about trying to learn to play the violin and even fewer become first violin in a phiharmonic orchestra. Those that do sacrifie to seek their own perfection. 10:43:52 s/violin/forth 10:45:15 There are those who see Forth as no different than any of the other 30 langugae that they use, or minimally so. And naturally the way they use Forth follows exploiting this minimal difference when it is the best fit. That's fine. 10:46:11 Is that the "you can write fortran code in every language" syndrome? 10:46:16 But Forth is also favored by the smaller percentage of those interested in more creative, more immersive, more intuitive, or more fun programming. 10:46:54 * t3h_ch1k3n :) 10:47:06 If I should be honest, what interests me absolutely most with Forth is the minimalism. 10:47:30 I just don't see it as a problem. I think it is something that we should understand and accept. Forth is a fair left brain language but it was designed to be a both brain language and I think each side can get its own 10x. 10:47:41 Not saying it can't be useful, but that's what made me really interested. 10:47:51 and he got me into it. 10:47:58 :) 10:48:00 Those who only use Forth as left brain will never get beyond the left brain 10x, but if they are happy with that good for them. 10:49:54 How many Forth programmers around here use other "niche" languages? ruby, ocaml, haskell etc. 10:50:09 Well anyway, I will be going. just wanted to comment on swsch's quesions about why people would take on the 'burden' to become an excellent Forth programmer. 10:50:17 swsch: I do. 10:50:25 swsch, I also use *cough* java 10:50:30 thefox: thanks for your time. 10:50:32 --- quit: thefox () 10:50:40 Robert: which one(s)? 10:50:56 swsch: Learning OCaml. 10:50:58 slava: hello slava! 10:51:11 * slava 's bank account likes java 10:51:21 Robert: why ocaml? 10:52:02 swsch: I was checking different SML compilers, but they all seemed to have their issues, and I noticed there were a lot of libraries and bindings available for OCaml. 10:52:03 slava: yes, the training sessions I gave for Java were the best paid ... does that tell me something? 10:53:27 robert: how does programming in "rich" ocaml feel compared to "spartan" forth? 10:55:00 swsch: To be honest, named local variables are a blessing sometimes. Just like garbage collection, pattern matching, good list handling etc. Oh, don't forget the EXISTANCE of a type system. So for some tasks it's a lot easier to get things done. 10:55:44 Robert: out of curiosity: did you ever try to solve the same problem in both ocaml and forth? 10:56:02 you NEED named local variables if you don't have a visible stack 10:56:08 swsch: I use Forth for other things, one thing I've found it to be extremely good at is providing powerful but easy/efficient scripting, and also quickly hacking together an assembler or such for a VM project. 10:56:27 swsch: Not what I can remember, no. But I've done more Forth than OCaml. 10:57:02 I had a Ruby script generating navigation bars for web pages 10:57:31 it used REXML, was quite natural to develop in Ruby and the XML was quite simple. 10:57:45 It had to be, since it was intended to be managed by "user". 10:58:11 Problem: My way of doing things made the script incredibly slow. 10:58:28 (When was the last time you waited for 5 minutes for a script to complete?) 10:58:34 Heh. 10:58:44 Over the last days I rewrote it in Forth. 10:58:54 5 minutes? 10:58:54 Guess what: No XML 10:59:01 are you implying that xml is "slow"? 10:59:11 more or less plain text input 10:59:20 lightning fast execution. 10:59:36 i've never had performanec problems with any xml parser 10:59:39 slava: no. I'm saying that my way of doing things with ruby and REXML are slow 10:59:46 i never use DOM models, just streaming input 11:00:00 It must be me, since other ruby programmers don't complain about the speed. 11:00:56 The point is that having a large library of ready-made tools at your fingertips 11:01:14 does not necessarily make things easy or "good". 11:01:40 At least that's the lesson I took from this experience. 11:01:43 you should use java for web apps 11:01:47 * swsch shrugs 11:02:19 slava: It's not a web app ... I'm generating static html snippets to be included via SSL 11:02:29 oh ok 11:02:30 it's a long story... don't ask 11:02:50 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-160-164-95.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 11:03:18 not SSL, SSI ... what time is it? 11:30:43 "RIAA Sues another 762 Over File Sharing. Total number of suits filed by the music industry since 2003 exceeds 5500.". 5 times as many casualties in the war on piracy than the war on terror. 11:35:15 lol 11:35:48 theres better things to spend money on than fruitlessly going after people that want to listen to songs before they buy the album. 11:35:52 and thats what 75% of people are doing 11:39:28 --- join: futhin (thin@bespin.org) joined #forth 11:39:28 --- mode: ChanServ set +o futhin 11:39:34 hi futhin 11:39:37 hi slava 11:39:50 what does your nick mean? 11:40:15 t3h_ch1k3n, i can't wait until music pirates get reclassified as terrorists. 11:40:24 then the patriot act applies. 11:40:33 Hehehe. 11:40:38 futhin, my nick? 11:40:38 That will be fun. 11:40:43 slava: yeah 11:40:48 A lifetime on Guantanamo! 11:40:49 patriot act just proves that this is a dual monarchy of press and gov't 11:40:58 futhin: HI THERE SEXY OP 11:41:01 it's like 1984. but big brother is the RIAA 11:41:32 futhin, its my first name 11:41:48 slava: whats your name? 11:42:02 slava pestov :) 11:42:08 HE IS T3H RUSSI4N 11:44:05 t3h_ch1k3n sp3ndz t00 much t1m3 on t3h comp 11:44:13 y3s 11:44:16 ph33r 11:44:25 --- nick: futhin -> fu7h1n 11:44:38 1 ph33r n0n3 f0r f0rth sh4ll gu1d3 m3 11:44:45 now i'm as l33t as kuro5h1n 11:45:07 N0T 4S L33T 4S T3H CH1K3N 11:45:39 f0r7h 1z l4m3 bu7 it 1z t3h l34zt l4m3! 11:46:08 do script kiddies actually talk like that ? 11:46:12 f0rth 1z n0t l4m3 11:46:12