00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.09.24 00:00:03 I overwhelmingly prefer xfig. 00:00:16 Dia doesn't even understand the concept of paper size. 00:00:18 It's rediculous. 00:00:20 hehe, well, AutoCAD doesn't have the most intuitive interface either :) 00:00:33 That's just it -- Dia doesn't have an interface. 00:00:35 then again, autocad will draw you a kitchen sink. 00:00:37 It's got . . . stuff. 00:00:43 And you kinda do stuff . . . to stuff. 00:01:05 It's hard to explain because Dia's interface is virtually non-existant. 00:01:27 aah 00:01:31 ok, i remember trying dia 00:01:34 it sucks :) 00:03:24 ooh 00:03:30 autocad 2000 lt 00:03:33 thats what im using at school 00:04:34 --- join: Serg_penguin (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 00:05:31 hi 00:06:57 re 00:07:29 * Serg_penguin slipped my foot and was taken away by ambulance car, for first time in my life 00:12:34 :/ 00:12:58 --- nick: bent -> bent|sl33p 00:14:05 Ouch. What happened? 00:14:08 How'd you slip? 00:53:09 --- join: mur__ (~mur@kyberias.uiah.fi) joined #forth 00:56:00 --- quit: mur (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 01:03:51 * kc5tja is working on the PS/2 port version of my keyboard remapping device. 01:04:05 Who knows? Maybe I can sell the idea to ThinkGeek.com and make some appreciable income that way. 01:04:56 stepped in little pit - dhamn road workers ! 01:05:03 Ahh 01:06:31 http://www.networktechinc.com/ps2-prots.html -- good link for anyone who wants to build electronics projects that mimicks a computer keyboard. 01:06:42 ambulance, x-ray, 2 days in bed and lame like gallows stool 01:08:45 city streets become impassable - time to wear paratrooper boots ;(( 01:09:11 Actually, I should get another pair of combat boots. They're amazingly comfortable. 01:09:48 i feel comfortably only in soft cheap running shoes, fake Adidas 01:11:14 they tend to be "dropout's brand" however ;(( i tryed to switch, but others, even more expensive, hurt feet and smel like rotten hell 01:11:43 dhamn 'fashion' and 'peer pressure' 01:15:10 I can't say I've ever had that experience. 01:15:50 New sneakers, even the top of the line brands here, never hurt my feet anymore. I remember as a kid, the cheap running shoes always used to give me callouses. 01:16:05 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:21:20 --- quit: mur__ (Remote closed the connection) 01:21:53 --- join: mur (~mur@kyberias.uiah.fi) joined #forth 01:38:35 Estimated cost of the QWERTY-Dvorak converter unit will be in the vicinity of $40 to $50 range. 01:39:12 * Serg_penguin will never buy it so high 01:39:58 Well, what do you want? 01:40:16 I'm just a small-timer, selling units in individual quantities, and absolutely no method of mass production. 01:40:40 Besides, that is just an estimate. 01:40:53 did u do any PR or survey: what folks want and at what price ? 01:40:53 Things can conspire to make the unit cheaper too. 01:41:14 maybe, no one wants kbd hack-in ? 01:41:16 No, because I don't need it. 01:41:38 Serg_penguin: Three people here said they wanted one. And I know of two more off channel who wants one. 01:42:23 5 units won't pay off R&D ;)) 01:42:30 Says who? 01:42:33 Have you done the math? 01:42:46 I don't even know what the full R&D costs will be yet. 01:43:03 how much does your howr cost ? 01:43:03 But I can tell you one thing -- they won't be nearly as much as for the Kestrel. 01:43:49 My brute costs, for hardware alone, is $20 to $25, depending on sources, availability, and current prices. 01:44:06 This includes the estimated cost of printed circuit board fabrication too. 01:44:14 * Serg_penguin prefers to think BIg, and even GREAT ;)) 01:44:33 does now USA folks feel they suffer from censorship ? 01:44:44 Depends on who you ask. 01:45:03 Why do you ask to begin with? 01:46:07 what is 'market wolume' of folks who feel strangulation of speech ? sell them trash-cheap SW radios of superior quality in mass number ! 01:46:32 What? That makes no sense. 01:46:33 At all. 01:46:39 aha 01:46:56 in RU it could make bomb sense ;)) 01:47:06 And they can get trash-cheap radios, en masse, by going to Ramsey, Inc. and purchasing and building a kit. 01:48:21 * Serg_penguin was disguised by quality of kits here - 0-v-IC is UTTER CRAP 01:48:49 Well, purchase better kits then. 01:48:57 xtal radio w/ IC amp ;((( - the only non-FM kit here 01:49:17 Well, what do you want from a kit that is cheap? 01:49:24 If you want high quality, buy an Elecraft K2. 01:49:34 But be forewarned: you get what you pay for. 01:49:37 K2's aren't cheap. 01:49:56 But as far as QRP rigs go, they are the #1 kit rig on the market. 01:51:35 +1 transistor may turn this kit into thing way superior to most trash-cheap SW superhets/infradynes 01:51:37 In order for a business to make money on a product, they need to make no less than 50% profit on the product being sold. Otherwise, the cost of doing business will be immeasurably high. 01:51:48 No way. 01:52:03 no way what ? 01:52:05 A single transistor won't do anything. It's the synergy of the circuit. 01:53:33 Polyakov in his books claims _microvolts_ sens from 1 transistor regen/autodyne (millivots sound output) 01:53:57 Well, that's true of most receivers too. 01:54:12 Well, most receivers worth their weight that is. :) 01:54:33 (he says what output goes to microphone input by shield cable) 01:55:31 so, +few parts - and great leap in quality 01:55:59 I refuse to claim that's a high quality design. If it was, we'd still be using regens for home audio equipment. 01:56:14 Quality is a qualitative measure anyway. What actually *IS* quality? Nobody can really answer that. 01:56:27 sure, 2 drawbacks: 01:56:36 Literally, Quality is latin, meaning, the quality(sic) of existance. 01:56:46 So if an object exists, it has quality. Literally speaking. 01:57:01 http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/cgi-bin/commerce.exe?preadd=action&key=SR2C 01:57:14 1) customer hates to think. regen takes thinking and adjusting feedback 01:57:43 2) regen has inferior dynamic range to _GOOD_ super w/ MULTIPLE CONTOUR aerial filter 01:57:45 * kc5tja would like to try regenerative reception some day. Unfortunately, I've never gotten a transistor to ever oscillate, so I'm kind of stuck on that end. 01:58:08 Yes, because it's overloading a single transistor with four different duties. :) 01:59:54 * Serg_penguin bets what newbie hardly can match superhet's tunings 02:00:14 I don't understand what you mean. 02:00:28 i offered you some scans from Polyakov, but now books are beyond my reach 02:00:50 You never sent the files. I told you I was interested in his circuits. 02:01:20 i say, superhet takes to 'match' tuning of aerial contour w/ heterodyne - hard task for newbie 02:01:24 Anyway, looking at the prices on Ramsey's website, I can see that my kit price is not too far out of the price bracket. This makes me feel good. 02:01:54 You mean to design themselves? 02:02:24 no, even to tune ready one 02:02:55 I think that's true of anything. 02:03:00 hint: first superhets had separate tuning of aerial and heterodyne ;))) 02:03:10 ???? 02:03:19 I'm not familiar with ANY (super)het that had that. 02:03:26 Old OR new. 02:03:39 There really isn't any reason for it. 02:03:56 i see one big reason: 02:04:45 u can make air filter's tuning coarse and cover all SW by few 3x bands 02:05:04 and make heterodyne tuning sharp, w/ narrow bands 02:05:38 what greatly simplifies construction 02:05:48 The way we solved that problem was to have multiple antenna input filters and different (fixed) BFO frequencies. 02:06:04 ????? 02:06:18 Then the VFO itself would only sweep from 1 to 500kHz or some such. 02:06:38 Multiple input filters selected which band you wanted to receive from. 02:07:01 The BFO is used to demodulate the RF to an IF frequency in the range of 455kHz or so. 02:07:10 aha, i got - double conversion w/ quartz 1st het and tunable second ? 02:07:22 Then a final VFO (tunable around 500kHz or so) was used to produce the audio. 02:07:28 Right. 02:09:03 think: trash-cheap infradynes have no hell of input filter, just ~40MHz lo-pass, yeah ? 02:09:58 so adding separately tuned filter gonna be good idea ;)) - gift from XX's 20-s 02:17:19 infradynes? :) 02:17:38 Never heard that term before. 02:25:29 infradyne = double superhet w/ first conversion UP 02:26:07 say, range is 0.1-30 MHz, 1st IF is 45MHz, second - 500 as usual 02:26:17 500kHz 02:26:52 so, het. range is 45.1 - 75 MHz ;) 02:28:38 Ahh. 02:28:59 I've never heard that term before, but I do recall reading that there were some good advantages to heterodyning up on the first stage, instead of down. 02:32:17 yes, getting rid of 'mirror' channel what is 90MHz away ;)) 02:32:31 but where are drawbacks too ;)) 02:33:23 Everything has drawbacks. 02:37:56 * Serg_penguin f...ing w/ MySQL 02:39:11 Oh my virgin eyes. :-) 02:40:30 seems it doesn't support nested SELECT ;(( 02:57:05 --- join: mur_ (~mur@smtp.uiah.fi) joined #forth 03:04:46 I wasn't aware that SQL even supported nested SELECTs. 03:07:09 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:07:37 Heh 03:08:03 * Robert is at school, waiting for the linear algebra lecture 03:08:19 * kc5tja is looking at the Atmel microcontrollers. 03:08:24 Dude, these things would ROCK for my application. 03:08:35 And they're rather affordable too. 03:12:37 ha-ha, SQL was named _structured_ precisely for that feature ! 03:15:57 :) 03:17:20 --- join: saon (Ecoder@c-24-129-95-254.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 03:24:28 OK, definitely going to be using the ATmega8 for my design. This is definitely a no-brainer at this stage. And I don't even need open-collector pins to drive the keyboard interface, I don't think. 03:24:36 Which saves me the cost of a 7405 chip. 03:25:57 --- join: crc (crc@75-pool1.ras11.nynyc-t.alerondial.net) joined #forth 03:45:37 --- quit: mur_ (Remote closed the connection) 03:46:09 --- join: mur (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 03:52:42 --- quit: saon ("Leaving") 04:45:28 --- quit: crc ("Time for bed... Goodnight!") 05:53:11 --- quit: Serg_penguin () 06:09:33 --- join: mur_ (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 06:19:21 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:24:32 --- join: I440r (~mark4@216-110-82-203.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 06:24:32 --- quit: I440r (Client Quit) 06:24:56 --- join: I440r (~mark4@216-110-82-203.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 06:24:56 --- quit: I440r (Client Quit) 06:28:03 --- join: I440r (~mark4@216-110-82-203.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 06:47:55 --- quit: mur_ (Remote closed the connection) 06:48:36 --- join: mur (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 07:35:04 --- join: Frek (~anvil@h229n2fls31o815.telia.com) joined #forth 07:35:24 Hej. 07:35:37 tja 07:38:55 Robert, this chan is publicly logged! 07:38:57 behave now 08:58:05 robert never behaves 08:58:11 he is a trouble maker 08:58:17 :) 09:02:32 someone has to make those too, we woudl run out of troubles in world and it was happy then! what then, it was voidness hmm 09:03:53 Hah 09:13:32 If anyone wants to see me blow steam like I440r sometimes does, head on over to http://www.falvotech.com/rants.html 09:13:55 It's a new section to my website, and I just added a second rant (the first everyone has already seen). 09:14:34 In the mean time, I really need to get to bed. 09:15:16 OK, good night. :) 09:29:55 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 09:29:55 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Herkamire 09:37:49 --- join: fridge (~fridge@dsl-203-33-167-178.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 09:51:51 --- join: hrmpf (~obi@195.18.226.13) joined #forth 09:52:01 Hi 09:52:23 Hur går det med din Forth? 09:57:26 tja, har jobba i hele dag. Blitt lite forth... :( 09:57:50 Usch 09:57:58 Nu har du en helg att ta igen det på. :) 09:59:11 ja og assembler dah... Det er jo fort gjort. men skal nok fixe den biffen oxo 10:02:47 Det går nog bra. :) 10:03:20 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 10:05:12 regner da med det... Har det egentlig ikke travelt. Det er jo en hobby, skal ikke stresse dah... 10:05:35 Hi qFox 10:08:38 hi Robert 10:08:56 hrmpf please keep that icky talk away from us ;) 10:09:17 hm, are you the same guy that was asking for a hacker yesterday in some channel on efnet? 10:10:25 i remember somebody with a nick similar to yours asking for a hacker yesterday. didnt pay attention to what followed though :) 10:11:56 --- join: ^m00h^ (~mnu@clusterfw.beelinegprs.ru) joined #forth 10:14:32 i NEVER blow steam :P 10:14:35 ! 10:15:24 * fridge raises an eyebrow 10:15:25 I'm probably not the one, haven't been using efnet for a long time. Anywayz, dont need a hacker. And if so, I wouldn't let everybody know... 10:17:06 kc5 erm you dont have a "right" not to hear the words "under god" 10:17:16 i dont understand your objection to the ruling 10:17:25 i think the ruling was the right one 10:17:47 prevent right wing activist judges from destroying the one thing that makes this country great 10:17:50 what'd I miss? 10:17:56 exactly...wth? 10:18:05 http://www.falvotech.com/rants.html 10:18:16 :) 10:18:17 I440r: what's the one thing that makes this country great? 10:18:21 GOD 10:18:38 the right of the people to decide weather to worship him or not 10:18:45 --- part: ^m00h^ left #forth 10:18:49 this isn't the holy land 10:18:57 i disagree 10:19:07 I don't see why god would make this country great more than he would others 10:19:08 but wont argue that with you :) 10:19:13 I don't think she's prejudiced 10:19:20 :) 10:19:26 herk is a girl! 10:19:26 who's god? 10:19:37 only a girl would say that lol 10:19:49 freedom of religeon is not freedom FROM it 10:19:59 I440r: not true 10:20:05 yeah, I can really pick up guys with this face: http://herkamire.com/jasondata/images/jasonshead.jpg 10:20:06 you dont have the right to not be offended 10:20:35 and if the words "under god" offend you then thats YOUR problem 10:20:49 you have the right to not wroship god 10:20:57 yo dont have the right to block me from doing so 10:20:59 i'm not quite seeing the link between the first and the second paragraph.. 10:21:06 ? 10:21:10 I'm not a girl, but I do know that most of the masculinity of god in the bible is from bad translation. not all of it, but... 10:21:33 nevermind. 10:21:35 herk therse alot of bad translations and misquotes etc etc :) 10:22:01 eek i didnt go to lunch lol 10:22:08 i was being bizzee bizzee :) 10:22:11 for a change 10:22:40 sometimes it's because we don't have the right word 10:22:56 eg, I was hearing someone talk about the translation "the kindom of heaven is within you" 10:23:21 the word translated to kingdom was actually female... but we don't have a word queendom afaik :) 10:24:14 they should have made it up 10:24:14 (not that it's relivant, but I think it's cool) the word translated to "within" also means "among" 10:25:09 I like the message that heaven is within and among you 10:26:08 I don't know why using the word god is so bad 10:26:19 BTW, I missed the conversation with kc5tja, but I think it's rather pathetic that our thing about the seperation of church and state is half lip-service 10:26:21 you read it and decide what it means to you 10:26:34 if it is allah, or the brahman or nirvana 10:26:44 just substitute where appropriate 10:26:47 =D 10:27:09 fridge: yeah, a lot of people have a quite negative emotional reaction to the word god 10:27:16 myself included in most contexts 10:27:58 probably because most of the time we hear it it's people being irrational and/or trying to change us. 10:28:34 which tends to range from irritating to downright confrontational 10:29:43 my church teaches that "god" means the embodyment of love and wisdom 10:30:01 but that's generally not what I think of when people say god 10:30:16 and I don't think it's what people usually mean either 10:31:02 What church is that? 10:31:12 Swedenborgian 10:31:17 swedenborg.org 10:31:20 Herkamire: heh 10:31:38 I've been reading a lot about him the last month =D 10:31:45 fridge: nice :) 10:31:49 great religion 10:32:10 not always real down-to-earth (get's pretty intellectual at came) but I like that :) 10:33:03 it is a practical religion, but sometimes we get all wrapped up in philosophy and forget that we mostly live in our daily lives 10:33:14 The previous owner of my parents new place left a copy of 'uses', I found it while rifiling through some stuff 10:33:54 cool. haven't read that one I don't think. it had/has a different name though... 10:33:54 then from there have been reading wilson van dusen non stop 10:36:48 --- join: swsch (~stefan@p5091EEBF.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 10:38:08 fridge: sounds like cool stuff 10:38:35 What word is normally used for clearing the data stack? 10:39:35 ...Open Firmware uses CLEAR. I'll just go with that. :) 10:41:24 Herkamire: it fits in nicely to some of my preconceived views of the world 10:41:39 fridge: have you read Life After Life? 10:42:02 fridge: swedenborg? 10:42:13 Yay, Sweden. 10:42:16 nope, I've read the design of existence and beauty, wonder & the mystical mind 10:42:26 That's one thing we've exported to the US, mad priests. 10:42:30 In the late 1800s 10:42:43 haven't actually read any of swedenborgs titles yet 10:42:45 Robert: what? 10:42:46 but I'll get there 10:42:49 haha 10:43:11 fridge: oh, I thought uses was a translation of one of swedenborg's books 10:43:36 Herkamire: Lots of Swedes emigrated to the US, among those a lot of priests that were disliked by the state church 10:43:37 nah, just another swedenborgian 10:43:57 ahh 10:44:25 lots of * emigrated to the US 10:45:08 fridge: Uhm, like 10-20% of this country emigrated. 10:45:19 In just a few decades. 10:47:16 gee 10:47:28 your state-church must have been more obnoxious than the neo-cons 10:47:31 =D 10:58:55 --- quit: swsch ("Leaving") 11:15:05 --- join: swsch (~stefan@p5091EEBF.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 11:16:22 --- quit: swsch (Client Quit) 11:29:50 --- join: swsch (~stefan@p5091EEBF.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 11:39:58 --- quit: jDoctor (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:02:02 --- quit: swsch ("Leaving") 12:02:11 --- join: swsch (~stefan@p5091EEBF.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 12:32:36 --- join: arke (apache@11.198.216.81.dre.siw.siwnet.net) joined #forth 12:32:53 hi 12:37:31 --- quit: arke (Client Quit) 12:59:55 --- quit: qFox (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:00:04 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 13:14:48 --- join: kuvos (C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 13:15:07 --- quit: kuvos (Client Quit) 13:17:52 --- join: kuvos (C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 13:18:47 --- quit: kuvos (Client Quit) 13:37:07 "RPC" in Forth is so nice and simple! 13:37:29 pls elaborate? 13:39:41 --- join: snowrichard (~richard@adsl-068-209-159-248.sip.shv.bellsouth.net) joined #forth 13:39:46 Well, I simple send some text commands over TCP to the server to be evaluated... tacked onto the end of this text is ".S CLEAR". The server types the stack back to me (which I EVALUATE, thus acquiring), and then clears its stack. It then responds with OK, which I also EVALUATE as an indication that the command is complete and the results are on my stack. 13:40:58 very elegant 13:41:32 Yes, it works so well, I'm quite pleased with it. 13:41:56 And I don't need to wrapper the calls in 1K of XML. :) 13:42:18 can you take anything away from your solution 13:42:22 so that it still works? 13:43:08 Example? 13:43:49 can't think of one ... 13:44:05 your solution must then be perfect :-) 13:44:41 no kidding 13:45:04 Heh. Well, the "protocol" is so simple. And if there's an error on the remote side, I can execute the output... "ERROR: blah blah" and report the error on my side as well. 13:45:27 How do you handle the networking stuff? 13:45:31 So, as long as the prompt and the error text doesn't change (the protocol), then I don't see any problems. 13:45:45 Just using good ol' sockets. 13:46:55 very precious information ... will be useful in two weeks :-) 13:47:26 --- join: [Forth] (~Forth@216-110-82-59.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 13:48:01 What's in 2 weeks? 13:51:28 If client makes up his mind, I might do some networking 13:51:36 Ahh. 14:01:12 --- join: tgunr (~davec@vsat-148-63-4-107.c001.g4.mrt.starband.net) joined #forth 14:13:46 --- join: swsch_ (~stefan@p5091DE64.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 14:15:38 --- quit: swsch_ (Client Quit) 14:15:46 --- join: swsch_ (~stefan@p5091DE64.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 14:18:32 --- quit: swsch_ (Client Quit) 14:20:47 --- join: swsch_ (~stefan@p5091DE64.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 14:22:20 --- quit: I440r ("going home (tgif)") 14:23:29 --- quit: qFox ("this quit is sponsored by somebody!") 14:24:16 --- nick: swsch_ -> swsch__ 14:28:17 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 14:29:35 --- quit: swsch (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:32:15 --- quit: hefner (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:34:18 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 14:35:07 --- quit: tgunr ("Leaving") 14:41:20 --- quit: swsch__ ("Leaving") 14:42:22 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 15:03:58 I don't think I440r got the whole point to the rant at all. 15:05:20 --- quit: Frek ("Client exiting") 15:09:36 Hey 15:10:18 You seem to have a lot of interesting info about connections between the Saudi court and their islamic enemies. 15:20:11 Robert, that's what they teach at school if ou hadn't skipped the classes! 15:21:32 :( 15:22:15 ok 15:22:20 my eyes explode 15:22:22 bbl 15:22:24 after sclleeep 15:24:47 :( 15:24:49 Bye mur 15:25:04 bJ 15:25:08 baaaj 15:25:16 capslock is not that visible in irc :P 15:25:28 no matter how much you press it :) 15:27:13 Robert: Was that intended for me, or for mur? 15:27:19 It's rather ambiguous. 15:27:39 kc5tja: For you. 15:28:01 But if mur has any such rants up, I'd be happy to check them out. :) 15:43:19 --- quit: [Forth] (Remote closed the connection) 15:44:54 hi 15:44:58 --- nick: bent|sl33p -> bent 15:46:23 Hi 15:49:26 brother is crying 15:49:35 hes getting really bad grades because hes not doing homework 15:49:41 and hes getting his ass reamed for it 15:50:13 I never did my homework 15:50:23 Look where it got me! 15:50:37 a forther on IRC, doing nothing but barely surviving. 15:50:38 :) 15:51:16 Heh. 15:52:34 the entire concept shat me 15:52:44 I sit at school doing work all day 15:52:48 why do more when you get home? 15:52:56 home is for homish activities 15:53:11 Yeah. 15:53:13 IRC. 15:53:23 IRC. Amen. 15:53:25 I usually don't do a lot of homework. 15:53:26 well, I didn't IRC at the time 15:53:34 more like surfing 15:53:34 But I have nice teachers ;) 15:53:36 but anyway 15:53:38 I do homework at school :P 15:54:03 i do math homework between passing period and the few minutes she uses to take attendance and do general announcements 15:54:12 did that for the last 3 years, works surprisingly well 15:59:36 Robert: Then I'll politely ignore the comment, because nothing about my rant has anything to do with Saudis. 16:05:51 kc5tja: You just mention them because...? 16:09:06 I didn't mention them. 16:09:07 Ever. 16:13:04 "e. Put another way, I'm actually supporting my troops. I'm not investing daily in oil products, which does three things. First, it keeps my money out of the pockets of the Saudis, which keeps them from forwarding the cash to Al Queda and other extremist groups." 16:13:53 All of which is very true. 16:14:30 Which part, that you never mentioned the saudis? 16:14:37 It's not a secret that Saudi Arabia harbors much of the Bin Laden family, who in turn funds Osama's operation. 16:14:56 I thought you were talking about rant #2. You really need to be specific so I don't waste time wondering what you're talking about. 16:16:25 I thought you could figure that out yourself. :) Besides, I would be careful with assuming that because a number of criminals live in a country, that country's government is funding them. 16:16:31 had a realization today 16:16:39 made me feel a little stupid 16:17:01 ESPECIALLY if the government is worried about a revolution by said criminals. 16:17:04 qemu is designed to run linux programs compiled for differenc architectures... 16:17:58 Robert: Again you are being nebulous. The comment I made regarding Saudi Arabia and their connections to Al Queda is verifyable through independent research at nearly any local library who has news archives. It is not a secret, as I've already said. 16:18:41 herkforth currently runs best as a linux program 16:22:36 Herkamire: Well...there you go. :) 16:23:22 Although, it does seem that qemu is equally moving into the systems-level emulation too. 16:27:54 oh definitely 16:28:15 --- quit: hrmpf ("sorry, had to go looking for myself....") 16:28:40 I wonder how qemu is able to emulate four different processors, all equally well. 16:29:43 I also wonder how it is able to handle shared libraries. That is, if I have a PowerPC version of mutt, for example, does it require a PowerPC version of ncurses library too? Or can it use the x86 version? 16:29:57 I'm curious about libraries too 16:30:05 not an issue for herkforth... but it would be for a lot of stuff 16:30:11 yep. 16:37:08 I think qemu translates emulated code to native code on all platforms it supports 16:38:12 not sure though. 16:39:15 when you run qemu on windoze, will it emulate linux programs? 16:39:27 From what I can see, it does that too. BUT...if emulated code makes use of function pointers to emulated code, then it "emulates" subroutine calls too. 16:39:31 if so do they get disk access and stuff? 16:39:33 Which still leaves the original question quite open. 16:40:03 Well, remember that the system call interface isn't implemented with regular subroutines. :) 16:41:33 I think this is what made me think that it translate to navite on all platforms: (from the qemu faq) 16:41:36 Q: Is QEMU a virtualizer or an emulator ? 16:41:39 A: QEMU is an emulator. It means that it converts each target CPU instruction into host instructions. Therefore, it emulates any supported target processor on any supported host processor. 16:41:44 also the fact that it emulates so fast on ppc... 16:42:13 And x86. 16:42:19 It screamed on my box. 16:42:39 faster than bochs? 16:42:46 bent: wwwaaayyy faster. 16:43:01 kc5tja: what about in comparison to VMWare? 16:43:14 bent: It emulated a PowerPC at an estimated 40MHz on my box (20x reduction in speed based on Herkamire's mandelbrot performance on my box) 16:43:37 bent: The two cannot even be compared. VMware sets up a virtual machine, not an emulated machine. 16:43:38 wow 16:43:48 hehe 16:44:07 VMWare is probaly around 10x reduction 16:44:42 No way. 16:45:02 VMware is way faster than that -- it uses the CPU itself to execute instructions -- ONLY privileged instructions are emulated. 16:45:40 linux on vanilla windows xp was running about as fast as my old 200mmx 16:45:41 That being said, qemu emulates an x86 at 25% the host speed (e.g., if I emulate an x86 on my x86 box, it'll run at 200MHz instead of 800MHz -- I openly invite bochs to compete with that.) 16:45:43 well 16:45:45 i have 1.2ghz 16:45:48 in these benchmarks: http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/qemu/benchmarks.html 16:45:49 so thats not 10x :) 16:45:55 it looks like qemu is about 40X faster than bochs 16:46:04 Herkamire: I saw 67x faster. 16:46:15 I didn't look very hard. it was rediculous 16:47:20 QEMU is about 4.1 times slower than native code on integer code. On floating point code, it is 10.1 times slower (normal as floating point emulation is not yet optimized). Note: the results are about the same whether QEMU is used as user mode or full system PC emulator. 16:47:36 bent: Well, like I said, it emulated a completely foreign processor architecture on my 800MHz Athlon at an *estimated* 40MHz (it was probably faster, actually). 16:47:43 Bochs is about 270 times slower than native code on integer code. QEMU is about 65 times faster than Bochs. 16:47:47 NOTE: as QEMU does not use a software MMU simulator, the comparison is not totally fair. QEMU should be about twice slower with a software MMU simulation. 16:48:04 60X on the first benchmark, 30X on the seccond 16:48:36 bent: For PowerPC-on-x86, you have no choice but to use a software MMU emulation though. 16:49:10 * bent thought of a ForthRISC processor 16:50:01 I ran my mandelbrot test in qemu on ppc (software mmu) and got about 10x slower than native 16:50:32 wait, I think it was 20x 16:51:01 no, 10x. because it was about 8-9 secconds native, and 93s in qemu 16:51:23 kc5tja: is there any processor you know which allows an ovveride for an instruction to take the _curent_ value of a register, regardless if that register is locked orn not? 16:51:57 bent: locked? 16:52:01 you can lock registers? 16:52:01 kc5tja: as in, it doesnt stall if the register is locked, it just uses what was before it 16:52:10 Herkamire: well, don't know how to explain. :P 16:52:55 Sounds like normal RISC to me. 16:53:22 err? 16:53:23 The original MIPS didn't have pipeline interlocks at all. 16:54:01 hehe. 16:54:12 That's where the whole branch delay slot came from. 16:54:12 that effect is what I was looking for as an _option_ 16:54:16 aah. 16:54:55 like, in the register description in the instruction word, there would be a bit that says either "true" or "cached" 16:55:09 Forth code would execute much faster with that 16:55:23 Hard to say. 16:55:46 because you always have succesive operations which are dependent 16:55:47 I personally don't think it will. 16:56:11 i was thinking a RISC which (1) allowed the lock override (2) allowed limited word index addressing 16:56:16 hoe come? 16:56:18