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08:39:06 <fridge> http://www.star.net/people/~mvs/
08:43:25 <fridge> fun toys for all on that site
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08:51:37 <Robert> Neat :)
08:59:33 <fridge> eek
08:59:37 <fridge> I just had a coke
08:59:39 <fridge> first in ages
08:59:47 <fridge> my stomach really isn't agreeing with it =\
09:01:20 <ianp> a255that stuff is acid
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09:14:27 <Robert> Hi Topaz 
09:14:34 <Robert> Have you used AVR Studio?
09:16:22 <Topaz> yes
09:16:38 <Topaz> i run it with WINE ;)
09:17:44 <Topaz> i only use the old version though (3.51 or whatever)
09:17:48 <Robert> Hehe
09:18:00 <Robert> OK, just wondering if you can simulate a serial port from the simulator
09:18:11 <Robert> So I can use a vt100 terminal with it
09:18:15 <Topaz> hm, actually i think you can do something a bit like that
09:18:27 <Robert> Cool, what?
09:18:28 <Robert> (brb)
09:18:46 <Topaz> (there's a OS sim called 'simulavr' which is apparently easily hackable apparently, as long as you can cope with C)
09:19:05 <Topaz> er, a few too many 'apparently's in there
09:20:55 <Topaz> hmm, you can set up 'port stimuli' files, although no serial port, it appears :/
09:34:51 <Robert> :/
09:38:02 <Robert> Hmm..
09:39:22 <Robert> "That's actually best, because I never liked chemistry that much, except for the computers...and the part where we melted moon rocks with a big radio transmitter and analyzed the He, Ne, Ar, Kr and Xe isotopes which leaked out."
09:39:26 <Robert> Hah
09:39:28 <Robert> http://www.lightner.net/lightner/bruce.html
09:39:33 <Robert> Seems like his simulator can do that.,
09:39:46 <Robert> And he sure looks like a cool guy from that page ;)
09:45:05 <Robert> Bleh, can't find it anywhere, though.
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10:13:01 <Robert> Hi
10:14:15 <hrmpf> hi
10:14:23 <hrmpf> how
10:14:34 <hrmpf> show is life?
10:14:54 <hrmpf> man, gotta stop my fingers... 
10:15:43 <Robert> Hehe
10:15:56 <Robert> Not too bad, I found something to live for again, and it was on my shelf all that time! ;)
10:16:05 * Robert points at an AVR board
10:16:32 <hrmpf> running forth i suppose...
10:17:53 <Robert> I plan to use Forth for a part of the project, yes.
10:20:14 <hrmpf> I found some links to a Forth Shell for Linux (broken ofcourse), called sforth. you know anything about it? 
10:21:04 <Robert> Sorry, no.
10:21:17 <Robert> But I know some people have used other Forths for that.
10:21:48 <hrmpf> okay? like using  gforth or something
10:22:29 <Robert> I think it was gforth, yes.
10:22:38 <Robert> Probably something like isForth would work as well.
10:23:21 <hrmpf> It seems to be a good idea to use forth for a ahell in *nix, but i don't have the knowledge to write it myself. yet, that is...
10:24:26 <Robert> :)
10:24:31 <Robert> What kind of Forth experience do you have?
10:24:45 <Robert> Or other programming experience for that matter.
10:25:00 <fridge> theres always bashforth
10:25:05 <Robert> Haha
10:26:02 <hrmpf> did some programming in basic on the CBM 64 loooooooong time ago, tried pascal a bit. 
10:27:11 <Robert> Cool. I started with BASIC on PC (but I do have a C128D on the shelf :) and later went on with Pascal.
10:27:17 <Robert> But that was also pretty long ago.
10:27:54 <hrmpf> C & C++ doesn't like me... Started to look into forth for maybe two months, but haven't had the time to really *try* yet. working too much
10:28:00 <Robert> :(
10:28:24 <Robert> After a one-hour crash course in Forth internals (from Speuler in this channel), I could write my own Forth.
10:29:24 <hrmpf> okay?!? I know forth is "simple", but you got to be kidding!!! 
10:29:41 <Robert> Really, no.
10:29:44 <Topaz> i've written my own FORTH, i just don't know the complexities of FORTH well enough to use it for anything serious ;)
10:30:09 <Topaz> but i shall endeavour like i do with most languages, churn out a few years worth of useless crap first :D
10:30:13 <Robert> hrmpf: And you can run it with very little memory. I have a Forth system running on 128 bytes of RAM.
10:31:13 <hrmpf> so writing a FORTH is easy, but using it is the hard part... ;)
10:32:00 <Topaz> well, FORTH is so unlike any other (procedural) language, that there's rather a lot to learn
10:32:21 <ianp> hrmpf: other way around....
10:32:22 <Topaz> FORTH is kinda strange, in writing a program you are essentially altering the FORTH environment to do what you want
10:33:53 <Robert> Yeah.
10:34:22 <Robert> I did one of the most useless demonstrations of that ever, when adding inline brainfuck functionality to my Forth, in a few lines.
10:35:08 <Topaz> haha
10:37:06 <hrmpf> what do you have to know about forth, and computers in general to write a forth system?
10:38:09 <Topaz> well, you'll need to know assembly, with a grasp of the different addressing modes
10:40:24 <Robert> At least that's a great help.
10:40:37 <Robert> Theoretically you can get away without knowing your machine, but...
10:40:50 <hrmpf> so assembly is used to write the basic forth system, then u expand by using the forth system...
10:41:07 <Robert> Usually, yes. But some Forth systems are based on C or Forth.
10:41:53 <Robert> I was a pretty lousy assembly coder when I started using Forth, and even I could write a working Forth.
10:41:56 <Topaz> afaik you only need to implement 13 words in assembly
10:42:02 <Topaz> (or C, or whatever)
10:42:12 <Topaz> which will provide you with a fully functional, but extremely slow FORTH
10:42:24 <Topaz> (after you've written the rest of the words in FORTH)
10:42:40 <Robert> Hehe.
10:43:18 <Robert> However, every truly brain-damaged coder will optimize words that will be used only once, by a korean student, in 15 years.
10:43:27 <Robert> At least I do that kind of stuff.
10:43:58 <Robert> brb
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10:57:03 <hrmpf> I have a 8031 board(http://www.tecel.com/t1/), what do I have to know to write a forth for it?
10:57:21 <Robert> 8031 assembly. :)
10:57:37 <Robert> Is it a microcontroller with non-writable code memory?
10:59:03 <hrmpf> no, think it adresses all in one mem space. 
10:59:33 <Robert> Cool... Then I guess all you need is to learn its assembly language.
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11:04:01 <Robert> Hi, hefner 
11:04:04 <hrmpf> understood, but which (13) words do I have to write in assembly to get a really slow, but functional system? 
11:04:32 <hefner> hello
11:04:36 <Robert> hrmpf: Hmm... Probably something like  @ ! + - SWAP DUP DROP OVER : ;   etc.
11:04:54 <Robert> hrmpf: There's a document called "levels of Forth" (or something like that) which deals with this.
11:05:26 <hrmpf> okay, I'll start there. thank you
11:06:51 <Robert> But really, 13 words gives you a toy system.
11:07:19 <Robert> I think even Chuck Moore (who is known to be a pretty fanatic minimalist) has listed more words than that.
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11:09:11 <hrmpf> I'm just interrested in learning forth. Maybe use it in a project I'm working on, but I have to learn to use it first... 
11:10:35 <hrmpf> I the first system I write is a toy system, it's still a system. And a step forward from point zero... 
11:11:00 <Robert> Yeah.
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11:11:34 <Robert> But you will notice it's a pain in the ass trying to construct everything in a Forth system from just one dozen of asm words.
11:11:47 <Robert> Not saying it's not possible, it's just harder and less efficient.
11:12:59 <hrmpf> so more asm words, higher efficiency. 
11:14:05 <hrmpf> makes sense, but where to draw the line between just a lot of assembly code, and a forth system
11:20:20 <Robert> You can write a Forth system in assembly language.
11:20:38 <Robert> But sooner or later you start coding Forth, and then the system is extended with those definitions.
11:21:19 <hrmpf> okay
11:21:23 <Robert> IsForth is one example, it contains some (actually, tons of) word definitions in asm and then it loads even more word definitions in Forth.
11:21:38 <Robert> When it's done, you have a Forth system you can start working with.
11:22:15 <Robert> I tried to make a small DOS Forth, the assembly part became about 3-4kB
11:22:35 <Robert> But then I could probably skip half of that.
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11:26:16 <Robert> Hoi :)
11:29:01 <qFox> hya
11:29:09 <qFox> how ya doing?
11:29:18 <Robert> Goed :D
11:29:22 <Robert> And you?
11:29:42 <qFox> prettty great
11:29:43 <qFox> :)
11:30:00 <qFox> sorry, dont know any swedish, nor will i be bothered to try ;0
11:30:10 <Robert> Haha
11:30:13 <Robert> It's OK :)
11:30:16 <Robert> I forgive you.
11:30:23 <qFox> :)
11:30:31 <Robert> One word that's easy to remember though, "bra" (good, fine)
11:30:33 <qFox> school's taking up pretty much all of my time, as i expected
11:30:46 <Robert> I see... I'm not too busy, so far.
11:30:48 <qFox> pity i get entirely different idea's by that word ;)
11:30:57 <Robert> Hehe.
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11:31:08 <Robert> Heh.
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11:33:24 <qFox> i love this keyboard
11:33:35 <qFox> totally stops functioning exactly once a day
11:34:08 <hrmpf> sounds like a Micro$oft product...
11:34:17 <qFox> wrong
11:34:26 <qFox> but you'l llaugh anyways
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11:38:22 <jim> hrmpf: you can certainly write a forth for your 8031 board... but it might be of better use to you if you play with a forth that's out there for awhile first
11:38:55 <Robert> This is of course very individual, but I learnt Forth by writing one.
11:39:59 <jim> individual, true :) I know a guy who wrote a forth but didn't learn forth :)
11:40:25 <Robert> Oh, you mean PROPER Forth? ;)  That took longer.
11:40:47 <qFox> its trust btw
11:40:48 <I440r> i have an 8051 forth :)
11:40:51 <qFox> :p
11:41:21 <I440r> but it definatly wont work on anythning other than the specific Cygnal 8051 it was written for
11:41:39 <qFox> how can you write a forth without learning it :s
11:42:18 <Topaz> well, for a start, you're going to do stuff 'your way' instead of the 'proper' way ;)
11:42:24 <hrmpf> did the egg come first, or was it the chicken?...
11:42:27 <jim> the reason I suggest learning forth before writing one, is the skills you gain in learning forth go almost directly to understanding asm much more deeply
11:42:33 <Robert> I440r: Code runs from ROM/flash on the 8051, right?
11:42:43 <hefner> jim: how so?
11:42:48 <qFox> Robert> trust ergo track keyboard, a rather old one "designed for 98"
11:42:52 <I440r> flash
11:42:56 <qFox> but its a very good and relaxed keyboard
11:42:56 <Robert> qFox: Tss.. :)
11:43:05 <I440r> but with cygnal you can write to flash while running FROM it
11:43:08 <I440r> including erase
11:43:13 <qFox> thing worked great for 5 years or more, but it broke down eventually
11:43:26 <jim> in asm, you very often have to prepare for things before doing them, especially where it comes to using the stack
11:43:33 <qFox> so i got this one on ebay (thing wasnt sold anywhere, accidentally found one on ebay)
11:43:36 <qFox> but its fucking german
11:43:38 <Topaz> i love my keyboard, it's older than me :D
11:43:45 <qFox> including the (hardware, keys) layout
11:43:48 <I440r> jim you mean you have to actually THINK about what your about to do???
11:43:49 <I440r> !!
11:43:50 <qFox> its so evil >:(
11:43:50 <jim> in forth, there's a stack you can play with
11:43:57 <I440r> man thats bad!
11:44:02 <qFox> but i won another one, this time the correct one :p
11:44:09 <I440r> making all those poor coders actually THINK!
11:44:10 <I440r> lol
11:44:51 <jim> it's the ones that don't think that make me want to know what cities they drive in so I can avoid them :)
11:45:41 <qFox> well, i'd say you would need at least some knowledge about the mechanism of forth if you're going to write a forth
11:46:07 <qFox> Robert> aside from being german, this fucking mud just stops working once a day. quite annoying.
11:46:21 <qFox> no idea whats causing it
11:46:21 <Robert> qFox: Uh, what mud? 
11:46:24 <qFox> keyboard
11:46:29 <Robert> Oh.
11:46:31 <Robert> :)
11:46:32 <Robert> Fun
11:46:36 <qFox> no
11:47:36 <wossname> get a model m
11:48:51 <Topaz> ooh, mine is a model m
11:48:54 * Topaz reads the underside
11:49:07 <wossname> hehe
11:49:37 <wossname> they click in a satisfying way and make for a good bludgeoning weapon
11:49:59 <Topaz> yeah
11:50:02 <Topaz> the proper 'clunk'
11:50:21 <Topaz> though i tend to keep my parents awake at night, heh
11:50:35 <Topaz> the sound of clicking permeating the walls
11:51:50 <jim> oh, that's just crickets
12:04:44 <qFox> oh this thing is a weapon allright. its monstrous
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12:29:55 <madwork> OK, I have a chunk of memory that's in no-way associated with variables or the Forthy dictionary (other than the words used to access it). I'm not currently using the C@ and C! words... question is, do I use them, or use something like PEEK and POKE to access this memory?
12:30:11 <qFox> poke?
12:30:18 <qFox> isnt poke asm?
12:30:26 <qFox> no wait
12:30:27 <madwork> Also BASIC. Does it matter, though?
12:30:27 <qFox> pascal?
12:30:31 <qFox> basic! thassit :p
12:30:36 <wossname> playing on a 6502 ?!
12:30:38 <madwork> Yea, C64 nostalgia kicking in. ;)
12:30:49 <madwork> POKE 53280,10
12:30:52 <qFox> haha, sorry i just knew that word but couldnt place it by the correct language ;)
12:31:13 <madwork> Anyway, it would be something like: 255 0x C000 POKE
12:32:28 <qFox> dont know. i remember peek and poke were like store and fetch operations but syntax, nooooo
12:33:15 <madwork> Syntax huh?
12:33:24 <qFox> well... thats syntax isnt it?
12:33:45 <madwork> How is it syntax? It's just some forth words.
12:34:05 <qFox> my bad, sorry
12:34:10 <madwork> I could call it: 255 0x C000 SCREW.THE.POOCH for all it matters
12:34:22 <madwork> The main question here is would it be kosher to use the C@ and C! words in this particular case.
12:34:43 <qFox> why not?
12:43:35 <fridge> it's a matter of taste
12:46:47 <qFox> see no reason why not to.
12:47:03 <qFox> unless you simply dont have them.
12:48:25 <madwork> Just wondering if people would be confused by them. Maybe I'll jsut stick with POKE.
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15:23:40 <kc5tja> Bac
15:23:41 <kc5tja> k
15:23:46 <Robert> Hi
15:26:18 <kc5tja> madwork: In Forth @ and ! are equivalent to a cell-wide PEEK and POKE, while C@ and C! are equivalent to character-wide PEEK and POKE, respectively.
15:28:31 <tathi> hmm...
15:30:36 <tathi> looks to me like he was asking a naming question.
15:31:30 <tathi> whether to use c@ and c!, or to make up other names to emphasize the conceptual separation of that other chunk of memory.
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16:06:47 <warp0x00> kc5tja: hey help me out here for a sec
16:07:04 <warp0x00> with a little theory
16:17:11 <madgarden> kc5tja, re C@ and C!... yep. I just wasn't sure if it was appropriate for the context, since you can't do a C@ on value reference in this situation.
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16:42:58 <warp0x00> sup madgarden 
16:48:24 <madgarden> warp0x00, yough. Not much... in the final weeks of a big project at work.
16:48:32 <warp0x00> ooh fun
16:48:38 <madgarden> And Forthy is a rather large part of it.
16:49:20 <madgarden> tathi, yea, that's exactly what I was getting at.
16:51:24 <tathi> madgarden: so...what's this other chunk of memory for?
16:53:09 <madgarden> General use. You specify the single chunk of memory's size, then you do whatever with bytes. In my case, I'll mostly be using it to store arrays of keypresses for testing purposes.
16:53:43 <madgarden> Forthy has a stack type I could use, but I'm not quite done that bit and it's somewhat clunky currently.
16:58:32 <tathi> so then users would mostly use peek and poke, and only use @ and ! to access variables or mess around with Forthy's dictionary?
16:59:53 <warp0x00> swap:((a: b:) (*b *a))
16:59:55 <warp0x00> hmm
17:00:38 <madgarden> Yea, though I think I may use C@ and C! anyway. The "users" are mostly just me or other developers writing tests or poking at the firmware remotely.
17:00:38 <warp0x00> wrong window lol
17:00:47 <madgarden> @ and ! work only on value references. It's not really an "address" in the normal forth sense. You can't increment these references and do other such manipulation of them.
17:01:00 <tathi> oh, ok.
17:02:42 <tathi> Personally, I don't really see a problem with using C@ and C!
17:02:51 <tathi> But then, I'm a big fan of Forth.
17:03:05 <tathi> And I always thought PEEK and POKE were kind of corny :)
17:05:08 <madgarden> Hehe. But they're cute. ;)
17:05:18 <madgarden> Anyway, gonna use C@ and C! I think. 
17:05:32 <slava> madgarden, yes you can
17:05:48 <madgarden> I can what?
17:05:57 <slava> madgarden, cells * + @ is common in forth
17:06:04 <madgarden> Yea, I know.
17:06:06 <slava> obviously @ works with any integer :)
17:06:13 <madgarden> I'm talking about Forthy value references.
17:06:18 <slava> oh sorry
17:06:31 <madgarden> I'm using @ to fetch from them, but I could have named it anything.
17:06:38 <madgarden> get/set
17:07:01 <slava> would be nice to increment them to reference inside an array etc
17:07:12 <madgarden> Yes, and that's what that data block is for.
17:07:59 <madgarden> index @ dup 10+ c@ 2+  c!
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17:13:14 <warp0x00> sweet
17:13:30 <warp0x00> i knew my language could turn into a forth variant with a little love
17:13:46 <dionyso> hey
17:13:49 <madgarden> In Forthy, if you wanted to index into an array variable, you'd store a stack/array in that variable, and then pick values out of it by offset.
17:14:06 <slava> madgarden, same in factor and it makes the stack a bit deeper, its annoying sometimes
17:14:11 <slava> i prefer linked lists where possible
17:14:25 <madgarden> Makes the stack deeper?
17:14:33 <dionyso> is it possible to get a GUI for colorforth
17:14:39 <dionyso> i need some kind of advanced forth development environment
17:14:58 <slava> madgarden, stack size is virtually unlimited
17:15:09 <dionyso> slava: you're wrong, the stack is limited to 1mb
17:15:10 <slava> madgarden, oh i misread
17:15:17 <slava> madgarden, i thought you said 'make the stack deeper?'
17:15:28 <tathi> dionyso: did you try #c4th ?
17:15:34 <slava> dionyso, what stack? :)
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17:15:51 <tathi> oh.
17:15:59 <tathi> that's that damn troll again, isn't it...
17:16:17 <madgarden> slava, eh? I'm confused. :) I just talked about having array variables in Forthy.
17:16:32 <madgarden> You'd have a stack-value stored in a variable.
17:17:20 <madgarden> Then, items in this stack could be indexed like an array.
17:26:50 <warp0x00> oh fuck
17:26:55 <warp0x00> my language is lambda complete
17:26:59 <warp0x00> this is not what i wanted
17:27:26 <slava> lambda complete?
17:27:40 <warp0x00> i think anyway
17:27:54 <warp0x00> hmm
17:27:59 <madgarden> WTF is lambda complete?
17:28:04 <warp0x00> well
17:28:11 <warp0x00> you can emulate the lambda operator?
17:28:24 <madgarden> I don't know what the lambda operator is.
17:28:41 <warp0x00> theory of programming languages 101
17:28:50 * madgarden shrugs.
17:29:05 <warp0x00> more like 400
17:29:06 <warp0x00> but
17:29:15 <warp0x00> i dont even understand it well enough to explain it
17:29:48 <madgarden> So then, it's probably not needed if it's that complicated.
17:30:07 <warp0x00> yeah
17:30:12 <warp0x00> its the basis of all functional langauges
17:30:13 <slava> warp0x00, how is that a bad thing?
17:30:25 <warp0x00> my language isn't functional
17:30:26 <slava> i'm aware of the lambda operator, yes
17:30:31 <slava> i just never heard the term 'lambda complete'
17:30:59 <bent> what is he lambda operator?
17:31:00 <bent> :)
17:31:13 <warp0x00> meaning it can do all the things that lambda calculus can, slava?
17:31:21 <bent> i know that in scheme, (lamba ...) creates a headerless word and returns it
17:31:50 <warp0x00> okay i can make add and subtract
17:31:56 <warp0x00> that means i can make multiply...
17:31:59 <warp0x00> FUCK
17:32:00 <slava> you can do integers with lambda
17:32:21 <warp0x00> i think i can do integers in my language too
17:33:16 <warp0x00> add:( (:a :b) ; ( %*a %*b ) )
17:33:20 <warp0x00> sure enough
17:34:25 <bent> warp0x00: how does your language work?
17:34:30 <warp0x00> oddly
17:34:45 <bent> i can tell :)
17:34:48 <bent> can you elaborate?
17:35:10 <warp0x00> uh i typed that wrong  add:( (a: b:) ; ( %*a %*b ) )
17:35:18 <warp0x00> um
17:35:32 <warp0x00> hold on let me figure out subtract
17:36:32 <warp0x00> subtract:( (a: b:) ; *a (%*b c:) ; *c)
17:37:00 <warp0x00> bent: like lisp everything is a list
17:37:09 <slava> warp0x00, false
17:37:13 <slava> warp0x00, lisp has any data type
17:37:24 <warp0x00> well so does this
17:37:29 <warp0x00> but they're all presumably lists
17:37:40 <bent> slava: technically, everything is a list :)
17:37:45 <slava> an array is not a list
17:37:46 <bent> slava: well
17:37:54 <bent> slava: ok, you're right.
17:37:59 <bent> (add 1 2)
17:37:59 <bent> :)
17:38:00 <warp0x00> how so slava 
17:38:10 <slava> an array has O(1) random access
17:38:30 <bent> an list has O(n)
17:38:31 <bent> :)
17:38:43 <warp0x00> um
17:38:50 <warp0x00> unlike lisp everything is a list
17:38:57 <warp0x00> how does that sound
17:39:07 <kc5tja> O(1) vs O(n) is dependent on implementation.
17:39:15 <kc5tja> And array is just a list of all like-typed items.
17:39:19 <warp0x00> yeah i think im right on this one
17:39:22 <kc5tja> A list is an array of any-typed items.
17:39:46 <bent> aah.
17:39:47 <bent> :)
17:39:52 <warp0x00> aaanyway
17:39:57 <slava> kc5tja, i mean list = linked list
17:40:00 <warp0x00> in my language everything is a list
17:40:10 <warp0x00> how its implemented isn't specifiied
17:40:17 <bent> slava: linked list is not always O(n) either.
17:40:30 <bent> slava: it can also be O(s-n) :)
17:40:41 <randolm> bah
17:40:45 <bent> hi wossname :)
17:40:48 <warp0x00> and i have no idea how to explain this
17:40:54 <warp0x00> hey kc5tja can you help me find a word here
17:41:01 <randolm> warp0x00 - what's the real cool thing that makes your language awesome
17:41:07 <randolm> hello arke:l
17:41:19 <kc5tja> warp0x00: Which word?
17:41:33 <warp0x00> kc5tja: something in a chain of action/reactions
17:42:00 <warp0x00> something that is caused by something else and causes other things
17:42:28 <bent> a domino stone? :P
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17:43:16 <warp0x00> randolm: the thing that makes my language so cool is that its not functional i guess i dont know
17:43:26 <warp0x00> though i dont think languages can be nonfunctional
17:43:31 <kc5tja> An event.
17:44:10 <warp0x00> add:( (a: b:) ; ( %*a %*b ) ) < does that look anything like the lambda for add kc5tja 
17:44:17 <warp0x00> natural numbers
17:44:49 <warp0x00> it basically takes two lists and merges them
17:44:52 <warp0x00> actually thats all it does
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17:48:25 <randolm> actually, robert had a plan for a language much like this, i think
17:48:57 <warp0x00> really
17:49:07 <randolm> if you're saying there is nothing but lists and functions, and a list can be nothing but empty or a reference to a list
17:49:25 <warp0x00> oh no it has more syntax than that
17:49:41 <warp0x00> but thats about it yeah
17:49:42 <kc5tja> warp0x00: Seems very lambda-ish to me, yes.
17:49:55 <kc5tja> Though I don't know what %*a and %*b means.
17:50:20 <warp0x00> put the list called a in this list
17:50:25 <warp0x00> put the list called b in this list
17:51:40 <warp0x00> the full english i guess is
17:51:48 <warp0x00> there is a list called add and it is a procedure
17:51:59 <hefner> put the lotion in the basket
17:52:28 <warp0x00> if the input is two lists name those lists a and b
17:52:35 <warp0x00> stop excecution
17:53:00 <warp0x00> whenever the lists a and b get a value
17:53:05 <warp0x00> put the list called a in this list
17:53:10 <warp0x00> put the list called b in this list
17:53:14 <warp0x00> return this list
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17:54:57 <randolm> add(a ()) = (a), add(() a) = (a), add(a b) = 
17:55:20 <randolm> that won't work. i wish i retained roberts snippet
17:55:35 <warp0x00> Robert: hey you
17:56:34 <randolm> he's asleep in sweden :o
17:57:54 <warp0x00> Robert: hit me or warpzero back when you wake up
18:01:28 <kc5tja> warp0x00: Gotcha.
18:03:56 <warp0x00> kc5tja: does that make sense?
18:04:41 <kc5tja> Yes, it behaves like a dataflow language.
18:04:54 <warp0x00> well it is a dataflow language
18:06:17 <warp0x00> a very lambda/lisp-like one
18:08:23 <warp0x00> with some neat OO features
18:08:32 <slava> OO?
18:10:08 <fridge> OBJECT ORIENTATED
18:11:00 <slava> i know what it means
18:11:04 <slava> how is it OO though
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18:25:57 <fridge> I know
18:26:00 --- quit: warp0x00 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
18:26:01 <fridge> I was being obnoxious
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18:52:08 <das> hello
18:52:11 <slava> hi
18:53:27 <das> well, got my serial bootstrap cable working for my DSP, but have trouble disable the watchdog, so I'm running out of RAM (via code composer) till I get the rest of my forth up and debug things
18:54:14 <kc5tja> re das
18:54:17 <das> yah, I've been busy on my DSP SwiftX port
18:54:37 <das> hello kc5tja
18:55:31 <das> I got autobaud and reset working
18:55:56 * kc5tja has been reading up on USB.  Man, that is really an elegant serial I/O system.
18:56:12 <kc5tja> Firewire is technologically superior, but USB has one thing going for it that Firewire doesn't: simplicity.
19:05:28 <warpzero> slava: its object oriented because i made it that way? what do you mean?
19:05:39 <slava> warpzero, does it offer the OO features?
19:05:46 <slava> encapsulation, inheritance, polymorphism
19:29:05 <warpzero> yeah
19:29:15 <warpzero> it offeres inheritance and encapsulation
19:29:37 <warpzero> but i think its polymorphism is different from your standard polymorphism
19:29:39 <slava> and polymorphism? thats the most important
19:31:32 <Herkamire> usb is simple?
19:31:47 <I440r_>  usb slave is simple
19:31:51 <I440r_> master isnt so simple
19:32:12 <slava> hi I440r 
19:32:26 <Herkamire> I'm mostly conserned with writing USB support into my OS
19:32:52 <Herkamire> for starters just the keybord
19:33:42 <Herkamire> well that's cool
19:33:46 <Herkamire> it should be easy to make devices
19:33:58 <I440r_> hi slava :)
19:34:27 * I440r_ didnt get to sleep till 2 am last nite
19:34:43 <I440r_> was working on my apartment - still lots to do but not doing any tonight lol
19:36:53 <das> you got the new floor in?
19:39:00 <warpzero> slava: standard polymorphism is being able to take multiple types right
19:39:22 <slava> well, not only that
19:39:31 <slava> suppose i have a class Component with a method paint()
19:39:37 <slava> i can override this in subclasses Button, TextField etc
19:39:42 <I440r_> not quite
19:39:44 <slava> and then do x.paint() in code
19:39:49 <slava> and it calls whatever paint() is relevant
19:39:54 <I440r_> one more full row plus another row of about half a foot
19:40:00 <slava> not a hard-coded reference to Foo.paint()
19:40:04 <I440r_> and thats just the big room
19:40:11 <I440r_> still have the kitchen and the bathroom to do
19:41:43 <das> is your landord paying you for the repairs/upgrades?
19:42:24 <I440r_> heck no
19:42:41 <I440r_> but then im getting a VERY good rate for the place plus a VERY huge pipe lol
19:42:52 <I440r_> and he will cut me some slack i recon
19:43:20 <I440r_> some of the shit im going to do HE said he would do - he will do them eventually, im just not prepared to wait for it.
19:43:28 <I440r_> so those ones he will pay me back for
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20:05:53 <I440r_> nite ppl, im exhausted here... im going to go zzz early tonite lol
20:06:07 <I440r_> maybe i can actually get up when the alarm goes off :)
20:06:16 <I440r_> instead of ignoring it for an hour
20:07:36 <das> heh... I set an hour early, in case I do that. But I often just get up.. Then I'm tired because I woke up an hour early.
20:07:45 <das> Anyone know of any good ethernet controllers (16 bit port) to use on micocontroller board?
20:13:37 <warpzero> oh yeah slava 
20:13:40 <warpzero> of course it does that
20:14:23 <warpzero> you kindof have to help it alittle for the default event
20:14:26 <warpzero> but other than that yeah
20:33:57 <slava> damn i'm having a hard time with the stack
20:39:49 <hefner> how so?
20:51:07 <slava> hefner, can't come up with a good-looking way to express some graphics code.
20:52:07 <kc5tja> das: I can't think of any.  I know some microcontrollers have the Ethernet adapter right on-board, like Atmel's ARM9 products.
20:53:04 <bent> wb kc5tja 
20:53:12 <kc5tja> bent: For now.
20:53:20 <kc5tja> Just stepped out of the shower.
20:53:21 <bent> kc5tja: just finished shower, i assume/
20:53:22 <bent> aah
20:53:23 <bent> :)
20:54:00 <das> Yah, as do some coldfire parts. I'm looking for one you use on a microcontroller that does not have built in ethernet. I'm finding a few possible solutions.
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21:54:59 <bent> hi jdrake 
21:55:25 <jdrake> yo
21:56:31 <bent> ask away :)
21:57:22 <jdrake> I had a hypothetical question that I was wondering about. In comparison to a language like C++, with a package like a small word processor - such as AbiWord weighs in at 5mb (for windows). If the equivalent product was made with forth, how big might the resulting product be? 
22:00:24 <bent> ...heh, nobody answering? :)
22:00:31 <bent> may I ask why you want to know?
22:01:00 <jdrake> Well forth is often used for embedded work, so what about a smallish computer platform
22:01:42 <jdrake> For example the 'kestrel' if it had an office program made for it
22:06:31 <bent> hmm
22:06:39 <bent> like a dedicated "typewriter terminal"?
22:07:38 <jdrake> Hmm, not quite, but close
22:07:43 <jdrake> Have you ever read 'Rama II'
22:09:11 <jdrake> Here is a vision - it requires something wildly different from the consumer society we have however.
22:09:35 <jdrake> A computer terminal that is graphical (they are easier for many people :-)
22:09:43 <jdrake> But low powered
22:10:23 <jdrake> Includes or easily downloadable applications, such as a word processors, spreadsheets, etc.
22:10:39 <jdrake> Must be cheap to make and be able to last
22:10:55 <jdrake> So you could buy one now and still be using it in 20 years without it being 'obsolete'
22:13:34 <bent> hmm.
22:13:36 <bent> interesting.
22:13:41 <bent> it definetely won't be 5mb :)
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22:51:26 <kc5tja> Back, but I'm really busy at work.
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23:09:48 <Robert> warpzero: Hey you. Out there in the cold?
23:09:52 <jdrake> You guys seen one of these dirty buggers? (a pesty animal) http://b3ta.goatpod.co.uk/dirty-bugger.jpg
23:10:29 <Robert> jdrake: I've got a couple of those under my bed.
23:10:47 <jdrake> Robert, man, they must be annoying
23:11:05 <Robert> jdrake: Let me tell you one thing - they bite HARD.
23:12:08 <jdrake> I bet with that beek
23:12:20 <hefner> I can't belive that's a real animal
23:12:47 <Robert> hefner: If it isn't, please explain what it is I have under my bed.
23:13:24 <jdrake> hefner, why can't you believe it is a real animal?
23:13:41 <hefner> it looks like something from photoshop, with those wings
23:13:46 <hefner> I've never seen anything like it :)
23:14:45 <Robert> hefner: If you have a good telescope, point it at Neptune. That's where they live.
23:14:53 <jdrake> This is the one animal that proves evolution ;-) No God would be crazy enough to create one :p
23:15:43 <hefner> it looks like it has human eyes
23:16:06 <jdrake> hefner, yes it probably does
23:16:20 <jdrake> It was a really good job though wasn't it
23:18:14 * kc5tja sighs
23:18:35 <kc5tja> I need a new job.  Preferably one that doesn't require me to move out of state.  Especially since I've renewed my lease for the house that I live at.
23:19:11 <jdrake> kc5tja, If I win the lottery I would hire you to do something or another :p
23:19:41 <kc5tja> Dude, we can't have a radio in the NOC anymore.
23:19:45 <kc5tja> It's fucking rediculous.
23:20:04 <jdrake> 'NOC'?
23:20:09 <jdrake> What do you do anyways
23:20:11 <kc5tja> Network Operations Center
23:20:37 <kc5tja> http://www.cari.net
23:20:41 <kc5tja> I'm tech support here.
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23:25:25 <jdrake> http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1113457.html?menu=news.quirkies
23:30:26 <bent> dammit
23:30:35 <bent> anybody know of a program like AutoCAD but free?
23:32:23 <bent> hmm, qCAD
23:32:29 <bent> looks just like AutoCAD
23:32:30 <bent> :)
23:39:43 <Robert> bent: Are you Sonarman?
23:39:53 <kc5tja> No, he's not.
23:40:03 <Robert> Oh.. Do I know him?
23:40:10 <kc5tja> Yes.
23:40:20 <Robert> Under what nick?
23:40:55 <bent> arke
23:40:55 <bent> :)
23:40:56 <kc5tja> He is the Artist Formerly Known as Arke.  :D
23:41:03 <bent> "artist" hah :)
23:41:12 <bent> i found a free cad program which is kinda like autocad
23:41:13 <Robert> Oh
23:41:26 <Robert> The old name got too infamous, eh?
23:41:50 <kc5tja> Maybe I'm going about life all wrong.
23:42:21 <Robert> Any other options in mind?
23:44:39 <kc5tja> jdrake: That's rather amusing.  That's just the type of thing an intelligent dog would do, too.
23:44:45 <kc5tja> "I like noise, so..."  *click!*
23:45:45 <jdrake> http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_982290.html?menu=news.quirkies.unlucky :-)
23:45:55 <jdrake> ananova is nice to read sometimes every few months
23:46:17 <bent> argh1!!
23:46:21 <bent> :/
23:46:24 <bent> its not free afterall.
23:46:25 <bent> damn.
23:51:28 <bent> hmm
23:51:37 <bent> if my file share stuff worked, i could just go steal AutoCAD
23:52:37 <jdrake> "A Dutch town hopes Scottish highland cattle will drive away gay couples who use a local park to have sex."  Disturbing for kids no doubt
23:52:49 <bent> hehe
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23:54:14 <kc5tja> Scottish Highland cattle == sheep?
23:54:32 <kc5tja> That very name just makes no sense to me.  :)
23:54:39 <kc5tja> I don't associate cattle with Scots.
23:55:00 <bent> HOLY SHIT!
23:55:10 <bent> $3750 for AutoCAD!
23:55:42 <kc5tja> Well, you're looking at a CAD package powerful enough to design aircraft and spacecraft with.
23:55:58 <bent> heh
23:56:08 <bent> man, i just want something simple
23:56:10 <bent> :)
23:56:23 <bent> time to steal it.
23:56:26 <kc5tja> Look for AutoDraw or whatever it was called.
23:56:43 <kc5tja> It's much simpler than AutoCAD.  And not nearly as powerful.
23:56:50 <kc5tja> And no built-in Lisp environment either.
23:57:14 <bent> err
23:57:19 <bent> seems that it wasnt autodraw
23:57:43 <kc5tja> What wasn't?
23:57:49 <kc5tja> I thought you were looking for AutoCAD?
23:57:57 <bent> yeah
23:58:00 <bent> err
23:58:09 <bent> i need something for free
23:58:16 <bent> because i dont have $3750
23:59:04 <jdrake> bent, Dia
23:59:42 <bent> jdrake: heard of that..
23:59:46 * bent googles
23:59:47 <kc5tja> I absolutely cannot STAND dia.
23:59:53 <kc5tja> Dia is the biggest piece of crap I've ever used.
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.09.23