00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.09.18
00:25:46 <kc5tja> Greetings from work.
00:39:12 <ianp> greetings from home
00:39:21 <ianp> good day
00:39:43 <kc5tja> Heheh :)
01:04:40 * kc5tja wishes he could participate in some amateur radio here at work.
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05:41:59 <jim> greetings from chair.
05:42:23 * kc5tja is sitting in a chair too.
05:42:29 <kc5tja> Only I'm at work, and not home.  :)
05:43:30 <jim> aha :)
05:44:20 <jim> I dunno what that tells me tho :)
05:48:20 <kc5tja> hehe
06:05:25 <kc5tja> Well, all I know is that I'd rather be home sleeping.
06:05:41 <kc5tja> As it is, I have one more hour, and then it'll probably be until 8AM that I crawl into bed.
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06:37:17 * crc finally finished the basic hard drive words for RetroForth/Native
06:40:33 <kc5tja> Cool.
06:42:20 <crc> By tonight I should be able to load/save blocks and have the code cleaned up enough to release :-)
06:42:46 <kc5tja> crc: Sweet.  I still, after two weeks, have yet to add even the humble "PUBLIC:" word to FTS/Forth's compiler.  :(
06:42:49 * kc5tja sighs
06:42:59 <kc5tja> At this rate, I don't think I'll ever finish it.  :(
06:43:29 <crc> Just keep working on it
06:43:46 <crc> Eventually you'll finish it
06:44:24 <crc> It's taken me three years to get RetroForth to a point that I'm happy with
06:45:33 <kc5tja> How often have you worked on it though in those three years?
06:45:43 <kc5tja> I haven't even *STARTED* FTS/Forth itself yet.
06:45:46 <kc5tja> Well, I have.
06:45:52 <kc5tja> But, it's not a Forth yet.
06:45:55 <kc5tja> Not without that damn dictionary!
06:46:46 <crc> I spent about three hours a day working on it
06:46:51 <crc> Five days a week
06:47:05 <kc5tja> I've spent . . . . . . . . 0 hours working on it in the last two weeks alone.
06:47:15 <kc5tja> So, from extrapolation....
06:47:30 <crc> You've also been adapting to graveyard shift this week
06:47:51 <kc5tja> Yes, that has not helped.  But this extends to before the graveyard shift.
06:48:05 <kc5tja> The plain and simple truth is, I get burnt out all too easily on any project I undertake.
06:48:18 <crc> I understand
06:48:33 <crc> This is the longest I've ever spent working on a single project
06:49:06 <crc> Prior to RetroForth, I never stuck with a project for more than six months
06:49:38 * kc5tja wishes he could stick with a project even for that long.
06:52:41 <kc5tja> I was excited about the Kestrel, but that has faded away, as any new machine would not likely be purchased by other people.
06:52:55 <kc5tja> I can't think of any ham radio-related projects I want to market just yet.
06:53:27 <kc5tja> And so, that leaves only the wonky little gimmick of a kit for adapting any QWERTY or Dvorak keyboard to any QWERTY or Dvorak interface.
06:53:46 * crc would like an adapter to do that
06:55:02 <crc> I like dvorak a lot more than qwerty
06:55:58 <kc5tja> For normal typing, me too.
06:56:11 <kc5tja> But not for programming.
06:56:51 <crc> I should implement keymapping in RetroForth/Native... it only supports qwerty at the moment
06:57:17 <kc5tja> It does use table lookup to perform the mapping, right?
06:57:21 <crc> Yes
06:57:30 <kc5tja> Just overwrite the tables with the new set of information.  :)
06:57:45 <crc> I still have to make the keymaps
06:58:12 <crc> I should look through my old files, I think I had a dvorak map once
06:59:34 <kc5tja> It's easy enough to find on the Internet too.
06:59:58 * Robert gave up on dvorak after about an hour.
07:00:13 <kc5tja> Robert: You need more time than that to get used to Dvorak.
07:02:00 <Robert> I know.
07:02:15 <Robert> But more time with dvorak would have triggered a lot of mental diseases...
07:02:30 <Robert> So I decided to give up on it and return to qwerty, which I can barely type on.
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07:05:12 <kc5tja> Robert: Pity.  Dvorak really is much nicer for prose typing.
07:05:33 <kc5tja> However, that being said, I should also point out that Dvorak optimized the keyboard layout for English prose, not Swedish, so YMMV.
07:05:54 <Robert> It's not like I use Swedish a lot...
07:06:20 <Robert> I just can't bring up the motivation to learn dvorak (or most other things).
07:19:19 <crc> Ok, I can load/save blocks on the hard drive in RetroForth/Native now
07:20:21 <Robert> :)
07:21:00 * crc notes that this would need to be customized for each PC it runs on
07:21:42 <crc> The hard drive information is hard coded, and it assumes that you will start saving data at block 1 (0 being the MBR)
07:25:38 <crc> My block editor could probably use some work though
07:26:20 <crc> It currently loads as many blocks as possible into RAM, making it a big memory hog
07:31:59 <crc> I wonder what driver to code next?
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07:42:48 <kc5tja> Going home, then going to bed.
07:43:03 <crc> good night :-)
08:24:42 * crc has decided to write a simple serial port driver
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10:11:14 <crc> Does anyone here have experience with Bochs?
10:11:34 <Herkamire> crc: I've used it a bit
10:12:30 <crc> Is there a way to create a log of bytes written to the serial port?
10:13:06 <Herkamire> and still have them go to the serial port?
10:13:22 <crc> I don't care if they go to the real serial port
10:14:02 <Herkamire> couldn't you just stick in the logfilename as the serial device?
10:14:15 <crc> How?
10:14:38 <crc> I have 'com1: enable=1 dev=serial.txt' and it doesn't log anything to serial.txt
10:15:10 <qFox> warez! o_0
10:15:51 <Herkamire> com1: enabled=1, dev=/dev/ttyp9
10:16:05 <crc> I'm on windows :-(
10:16:29 <Herkamire> oh. maybe you can't give device paths on windoze
10:16:33 <Herkamire> or maybe it's the missing comma
10:16:48 <Herkamire> maybe give an absolute path
10:19:00 <Herkamire> does windoze interact with files and devices the same way?
10:19:08 <crc> No
10:19:31 <crc> It has names like com1: com2: and so on
10:19:42 <Herkamire> that's probably why it doesn't work
10:20:21 * crc sighs
10:21:38 <Herkamire> oh.
10:21:39 <Herkamire>  duh
10:21:50 <Herkamire> com1: enabled=1, file=serial.txt
10:21:57 <Herkamire> file=
10:21:58 <crc> Doesn't work
10:22:04 <crc> 'file' us not supported by 'com1'
10:22:15 <Herkamire> pbth!
10:23:18 <Herkamire> that's too bad. probably can't log it then
10:23:53 <crc> I tried just having it report everything, but the log reached 40MB before the boot sector had been loaded by the BIOS
10:39:04 <slava> hi
10:39:22 <crc> Hi slava
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10:42:43 * crc has made a lot of progress on RetroForth/Native today
10:43:24 <slava> cool
10:43:32 * slava is playing around with SDL
10:43:33 <crc> It now has working hard drive support, a working block editor, and a quick-and-dirty serial port driver
10:43:36 <slava> and calling C libraries from factor
10:43:48 <crc> I've also started a parallel port driver
10:43:51 <crc> cool :-)
10:44:07 <crc> I've been playing with the java factor a bit
10:44:24 <crc> And using jedit as an html editor for the redesign of retroforth.org
10:45:58 <crc> how are you calling C libraries?
10:46:17 * crc would like to be able to do that without writing bindings for every C function
10:51:27 <Herkamire> VNC has a java client!!?!
10:51:51 <crc> Yes
10:52:03 <Herkamire> WOW
10:52:15 * crc loves VNC
10:52:44 <Herkamire> not that it seems that hard to make... but it never occured to me that you could see a remote desktop in an applet in a browser
10:52:48 <crc> I wonder how hard it would be do do a version of RetroForth as a VNC server...
10:53:28 <crc> I used the Java client frequently when I was last administering a lan
10:53:40 <crc> It was *very* helpful :-)
10:54:18 <Herkamire> I never had a use for such a thing
10:55:02 <Herkamire> all the machines I've been admin for that were more than 50 feet away, were linux without X
10:55:08 <crc> I used Linux on my Laptop and the fileserver; all of the other PC's ran Windows
10:55:27 <Herkamire> there's a VNC server for windoze?
10:55:30 <crc> Yes
10:57:32 <crc> I'm trying to get a VNC client for my HP Jornada 680 (Windows CE 2.11 running on a SH3 processor)
10:59:01 <crc> Yay! I found one :-)
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11:35:45 <slava>   ( 0 ) USE: alien
11:35:45 <slava>   ( 1 ) "libSDL-1.1.so" dlopen
11:35:45 <slava>   ( 2 ) "SDL_Init" over dlsym
11:35:45 <slava>   ( 3 ) .s
11:35:45 <slava> { #<dll @ 673066323> 688306412 }
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14:10:28 <Robert> Hi Wizard
14:12:13 <TheBlueWizard> Robert hiya
14:13:20 <mur> moi
14:13:52 <mur> ice cream is so tasty!
14:13:57 <TheBlueWizard> mur terve!
14:14:08 <TheBlueWizard> ah...what flavor?
14:14:26 <mur> no flavour, with chocolate chips, wild berries and pineapple-mandarin juice
14:14:45 <mur> i think no-flavour is called vanilin ;P
14:14:46 <mur> :)
14:14:49 <TheBlueWizard> hmm! sounds like it is homemade
14:15:06 <TheBlueWizard> vanilla *is* a flavor...I can taste it
14:15:13 <mur> heh
14:15:16 <mur> i dont consider it taste
14:15:28 <mur> thats like neutral taste when they have to have some taste for things :)
14:15:40 <mur> vanilin ice-cream rarely has strong vanilin taste
14:15:47 <mur> eh vanilla
14:15:48 <TheBlueWizard> and there are a few kinds of vanilla...I have eaten French vanilla ice cream, which is different from the regular vanilla ice cream
14:15:49 <mur> what ever :)
14:16:27 <mur> normal vanilla is like "oh maaaan! we have to have some taste for this ice cream! - i know, well call it vanilla!"
14:16:40 <TheBlueWizard> true, vanilla, in general, is weak in flavor
14:17:02 <mur> like vanilla yoghurt is almost like plain yoghurt
14:17:06 <mur> little more sweet
14:17:10 <TheBlueWizard> hehe....just pour chocolate syrup on vanilla ice cream...yum!
14:17:34 <mur> chocolate syrup?
14:17:38 <mur> what is that?
14:17:43 <TheBlueWizard> yes!
14:17:48 <mur> syrup with chocolate?
14:17:57 <TheBlueWizard> you don't know what that is?!  oh my!!!
14:18:09 <mur> chocolate trees dont have syrup :P
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14:18:19 <TheBlueWizard> no...chocolate flavored syrup...just chocolate, really
14:18:20 <mur> eh, cocoa trees :)
14:18:29 <mur> hmmm
14:18:45 <mur> i wonder how well cocoa would work in plain yoghurt
14:18:48 <TheBlueWizard> you can pour chocolate syrup...I have bottles of those in my fridge
14:18:50 <mur> gotta try that one
14:19:04 <mur> i like to do everything from scratch
14:19:11 <mur> it gives more alternative and skills
14:19:20 <mur> brb, ill try yoghurt with cocoa
14:19:32 <mur> back in a bibit ) :)
14:19:41 * TheBlueWizard can't believe mur doesn't know about chocolate syrup.....he thinks he should start a business in Finland pitching chocolate syrup :))))
14:19:49 <mur> blah :)
14:19:54 <TheBlueWizard> lol
14:20:09 <TheBlueWizard> I'm a hardcore chocoholic
14:20:25 <Robert> Hehe.. I just had some warm chocolate. :)
14:20:35 <Robert> Er, or is it hot?
14:20:43 --- nick: I440r_ -> I440r
14:20:45 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r
14:20:45 * Robert is thinking in Swedish
14:20:47 <Robert> Hi ianp 
14:20:48 --- mode: I440r set +o das
14:20:57 <Robert> Er, I440r 
14:21:06 <I440r> what :)
14:21:07 <TheBlueWizard> hiya I440r
14:21:10 <I440r> hey :)
14:21:18 --- mode: I440r set +v Robert
14:21:20 <I440r> hehe
14:21:22 <I440r> *snicker*
14:21:29 <das> humpff..
14:21:45 <I440r> hey dwight hows things in longview ?
14:21:48 <TheBlueWizard> I440r: do you know what is a chocolate syrup, right?
14:21:56 <das> Oh, hot, like usual. :)
14:22:06 <I440r> tbw chocolate syrup ?
14:22:10 <I440r> i know what that is
14:22:15 <I440r> das its hot here in SA too :)
14:22:29 <I440r> im hoping to migrate my employers over to forth
14:22:34 <I440r> might do it behind their back :)
14:22:39 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...well, can you believe that mur doesn't know what is a chocolate syrup!?!
14:22:40 <Robert> Heh
14:22:52 <I440r> lol
14:23:15 <das> Yep.. but I'm sure SA it's drier.  Behind there back? Just find a way to link forth to your apps.
14:23:24 <das> and start migrating away from C.
14:23:34 * mur is back with choco flavoured yoghurt!
14:24:03 <I440r> das i wouldnt be able to do it behind their backs TOTASLLY lol
14:24:13 <I440r> besides if i say "it would be better to do this" they will say "ok"
14:24:24 <Robert> Is das anyone I know?
14:25:05 <I440r> no
14:25:14 <Robert> Oh.. Then hi, das :)
14:25:16 <mur> chocolate yoghurt is interesting idea
14:25:21 <I440r> he is a forth coder at the company i was contracting with
14:25:23 <das> Hello Robert. :)
14:25:28 <mur> i mean cocoa yogu
14:26:02 <das> You might think I'm crazy for doing so, but I'm porting SwiftX to the TMS320C28x.
14:26:14 <I440r> eek
14:26:17 <mur> yoghurt has  strong taste by itself
14:26:21 <I440r> how far along with that are you ?
14:26:30 <das> I've got assembler, disassembler, cross compiler working.
14:26:37 <I440r> cool
14:26:46 <das> Some core works, I need to build my XTL cable.
14:26:49 * I440r still needs to write his assembler
14:26:57 <I440r> been working on the fbsd port to isforth tho
14:27:29 <I440r> and am waiting on tathi to get the PPC version of it up
14:27:47 <I440r> cable shouldnt take that long
14:27:52 <das> The C28x can be booted from the asynchrounous serial port, so that will make it easy for the talker.
14:27:54 <I440r> ya gona send it to forth inc when your done ?
14:28:02 <mur> life isnt worth until you have tried chocolate flavoured yoghurt (even it is not good idea)! :)
14:28:30 <das> Cable, yah, but I did not want to butcher the devel board, so I ordered all the right connectors from Digikey.
14:28:52 <I440r> the freebsd version of isforth is 99% complete - all i have to do is figure out how to interpret time zone files and fix date and time stuff
14:28:55 <Herkamire> das: what sort of device is it you're working with?
14:29:08 <das> I bought a 3.3v ttl to rs232 converter cable.
14:29:16 <I440r> cool
14:29:22 <das> I440r: yes, I'll send to Forth Inc when I'm done.
14:29:34 <I440r> did it cost as much as my serial to usb cable?
14:29:39 <I440r> and will forth inc pay ya ??? :)
14:29:54 <das> Herkamire: The TMS320C28x is a DSP/microcontroller.
14:30:16 <das> I440r: we'll see. Doubt it. Unless someone else buys a copy from them.
14:30:26 <I440r> :)
14:30:55 <das> Herkamire: it is for a DSP project I'm working on with a friend.
14:31:31 <das> but I plan to use it at work, a few there are quite interested in it.
14:33:01 <das> Assembler was prety easy to write. I could have gone with the format you suggested, I440r, but I stuck with the one I'm use to.
14:33:30 <I440r> yea well you like bas ackward assembler in forth :)
14:34:01 <das> Compared to the rest of forth, it is in the correct order. :)
14:34:18 <I440r> lol
14:35:18 <das> Plus, I've written more postfix assembly code than prefix assembly code, so I'm more use to the postfix format.
14:36:45 <I440r> :)
14:36:51 <das> While the assembler was easy, it was a lot of grunt work. (Breaking rocks as Ron calls it). The disassembler was much easier.
14:38:21 <I440r> yea
14:38:46 <das> Kevin is getting into Forth quite heavily. Finally...
14:38:56 <I440r> my 8051 disassembler was written at least a year before the assembler was
14:39:00 <I440r> cool!
14:39:09 <I440r> tell him i said hi :)
14:39:17 * TheBlueWizard feels that ianp knows das personally
14:39:48 <I440r> im the only one who really knows das here, i worked with him
14:39:56 <I440r> but he has been in #forth before
14:40:02 <TheBlueWizard> I see
14:40:21 <I440r> das is one of the sharpest forth coders i know
14:40:22 <das> I will tell you said hi. He wishes we could have hired you.
14:40:35 <I440r> when i needed help on that job it was him i went to more times than not heh
14:40:56 <I440r> das yea - i still feel kinda guilty about taht one but i had to take this job
14:41:07 <I440r> i prolly make more than ken does
14:41:34 <das> That is fine. Hehe. :)  We are now a "General Dynamics Company".
14:41:45 <I440r> yea i know!!!
14:41:49 <das> "Tripoint Global" is no more.
14:41:50 <das> :)
14:41:53 <I440r> have there been any changes ?
14:42:01 <I440r> good :P
14:42:16 <I440r> like the hiring freeze lifted 
14:42:22 <das> Apart from losing "Tripoint Global" from our name, no.
14:42:28 <I440r> doh!
14:42:35 <I440r> ya need more talent
14:42:39 <I440r> or...
14:42:41 <das> Not yet, will depend on downstairs management.
14:42:55 <I440r> you need more talented people... you have alot of em there but not ennuff
14:42:57 <das> GD said we needed more engineers upstairs.
14:43:08 <I440r> well duh lol
14:43:25 <das> The ownership did not become official till yesterday.
14:44:03 <das> so there is a chance things might start changing next week.
14:45:21 <I440r> awesome
14:46:29 <slava> I440r!
14:46:33 <I440r> hi slava!
14:46:37 <TheBlueWizard> sounds like GD is still building or growing
14:46:54 <I440r> ive not STOPPED working on isforth for fbsd, im just waiting on tathi
14:47:06 <I440r> i have to figure out /etc/localtime stuff to finish it
14:47:16 <I440r> its only the time stuff thats not working right btw
14:47:33 <I440r> well er the sockets stuff hasnt been ported yet either
14:48:52 <Herkamire> I440r: you going to wait and hope tathi codes the time zone stuff?
14:49:19 <Herkamire> das: what sort of things are you going to do with the c28x?
14:50:19 <I440r> herk nah im waiting hoping he can help me do it tho :)
14:50:39 <I440r> i cant get my head arround the freekin man tzfile shit
14:50:56 <I440r> which HAS to be simpler than the man terminfo shit - yet i figured that out in 2 hours
14:50:59 <das> at work we plan to use it for motor control. The other project, well I can't really get into it, but it "spectrum analysis" and audio/signal processing/control related.
14:51:11 <slava> das, have you ever used SwiftForth?
14:51:55 <das> slava: I used mainly in the SwiftX context.
14:52:49 <das> so yes, I do you use SwiftForth.
14:52:50 <slava> swiftforth has a nice compiler
14:53:10 <slava> I440r, hey use SDL instead of terminfo and all that
14:53:57 <das> slava: do you use it? I've been using SwiftX for about 6 years now.
14:54:10 <slava> das, i've played with it a little
14:55:08 --- nick: TheBlueWizard -> tbw-dinner
14:56:37 <Herkamire> das: cool stuff
14:56:43 <das> anyone around here that would be interested in coming out to Longview, Texas to interview if we get some job openings where I work?
14:57:01 <das> Herkamire: yah, I'm enjoying it. :)
14:57:15 <Robert> Sweden...Texas... Nah.
14:57:25 <I440r> slava i dont want to use sdl YET
14:57:40 <I440r> i dont need to link into any external libraries to use terminfo
14:58:31 <das> isforth has no dependancies. ?
14:58:50 <I440r> das thers one guy here who you have talked to before who would be a good fit for sure - not sure if he would move tho :)
14:58:56 <I440r> isforth has NO deps 
14:59:05 <Herkamire> herkforth either
14:59:12 <I440r> well. you need to have ncurses installed so you have the terminfo database
14:59:20 <Herkamire> I440r: hehe :)
14:59:20 <I440r> but i dont USE any part of ncurses at all
14:59:29 <mur> gn
14:59:33 <I440r> so im not listing that as a dependancy
15:00:03 <I440r> you also need to have nasm installed to build the kernel :)
15:00:16 <das> well, could'nt you just make your own copy of the term database?
15:00:36 <das> You need to write your own assembler. :)
15:01:07 <slava> I440r, i started an sdl interface for factor
15:01:33 <I440r> slava cool - when i do that for isforth ill tap your experience :)
15:01:52 <I440r> i want xlib and straight framebuffer before i do xdl
15:02:05 <I440r> i might do a complete graphics engine in isforth using frame buffer
15:02:27 <slava> I440r, i'm generating small machine code stubs that take args from the factor datastack, and call C functions, then push the return value back on the factor stack
15:02:56 <I440r> cool
15:03:24 <I440r> das ive been thinking of writing my own terminfo database but that is DEFINATLY non trivial
15:03:39 <I440r> i would prefer the terminal implementors would fix THEIR fscking shit
15:08:52 <I440r> right now im trying tro fix that damned sort routine i posted to CLF that doesnt work
15:09:05 <I440r> grr it was WORKING perfectly before i posted it!
15:10:43 <slava> lol
15:12:43 <das> brb
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15:16:51 <I440r> wb
15:17:26 <das> Thanks, just switched to a multi-window client...
15:20:37 <I440r> heh
15:20:43 <I440r> xchat ?
15:21:39 <das> ehh... Currently I'm not on Linux, have not gotten SwiftX to run on Wine for a while now. Err...
15:23:32 <I440r> yea i know they changed something - i remember you showing me that
15:24:50 <das> It may fixed, we've not upgraded in a while. Maybe I should try one of the newer demos on Wine and see if works...
15:24:59 <onetom> I440r: dont u plan 2 port isforth 2 menuetos.org ? it would make it another possible forthOS
15:25:48 <I440r> never even heard of menutos till just now lol
15:25:57 <I440r> is that the ONLY desktop option for it ?
15:26:03 <I440r> i.e. does it run windowmaker ?
15:26:07 <Herkamire> menuetOS?
15:26:23 --- join: peterre (psmith_10@peterre.user) joined #forth
15:27:12 <I440r> das you can tell DAN he will be able to run isforth soon ;)
15:28:51 <slava> onetom, is there a C compiler for menuetos?
15:30:21 <onetom> jeah, gcc has been ported this year
15:30:51 <onetom> its developing quietly but steadily
15:31:17 <onetom> ive tried it a year before with a little luck
15:31:22 <slava> i cold port factor, then it would be possible to fit an OS+web server on a single floppy
15:32:24 <onetom> but now it has a bunch of very usefull programs, like sdl, libjpg, dosbox, gcc
15:32:44 <onetom> and it also supports rtl8139 cards
15:33:18 <onetom> slava: but u mainly devel factor in java, dont u?
15:36:25 <slava> onetom, no, there is a C port too now
15:38:08 <onetom> anyway, its a shame 2 use gcc in menuet whats main advantage is that its all coded in asm :)
15:38:36 <onetom> its like using gcc compiled mozilla or mplayer under morphos
15:39:16 <onetom> they r 10 times slower than their native 'equivalents'
15:40:03 <onetom> I440r: Herkamire: then check menuetos.org NOW ;)
15:40:21 <I440r> onetom i got noplace to PUT it lol
15:40:46 <onetom> ? u have no floppy disc ;)
15:41:46 <slava> programming in x86 asm seems like of weird to me, now that x86-64 is here ;)
15:43:20 <I440r> onetom no i have NO floppy drives
15:43:22 <I440r> at all
15:44:37 <slava> I440r, you're not a real man
15:44:46 <slava> real men use 5 1/4" floppies
15:45:00 <slava> the REAL A: drive
15:45:56 <I440r> lol
15:46:06 <I440r> i use USB hard drives
15:46:09 <I440r> puts hairs on your chest
15:46:10 <I440r> i know
15:46:11 <peterre> In South Africa, floppies are called "stiffies"
15:46:16 <I440r> i have a hair on my chest now!
15:46:32 <slava> i guess qbasic is like a full body wax then
15:48:43 <Herkamire> onetom: I've run menuetos
15:48:56 <Herkamire> onetom: I was wondering if that's what I440r was talking about
15:49:20 <I440r> lol
15:49:41 <Herkamire> the little stiff 3" ones are called stiffies
15:49:55 <Herkamire> I think the floppy 5" ones are called floppies everywhere
15:53:00 <onetom> I440r: its also netbootable already... ;)
15:53:09 --- quit: qFox ("this quit is sponsored by somebody!")
15:53:10 <onetom> I440r: but im just about 2 try it
15:53:41 <peterre> must go - bedtime here - nearly midnight
15:53:49 <Herkamire> netbooting menuetos would be cool. should go way faster that way
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15:54:41 <slava> Herkamire, how's herkforthos?
15:55:02 <slava> Herkamire, you should keep a weblog, your coding is always interesting to hear about
15:55:16 <onetom> Herkamire: hey, u have some motorola based box! how come u have tried menuet?
15:55:55 <Herkamire> onetom: I tried it on the PC at work
15:56:01 <Herkamire> slava: it's coming along.
15:56:11 <Herkamire> slava: run't unbearably slow in the emulator
15:56:24 <onetom> what emulator?
15:56:25 <Herkamire> I'm off to play bored games
15:56:30 <Herkamire> pearpc
15:57:43 <onetom> wow.. is it really able 2 run even macosX??
16:02:23 <Herkamire> onetom: not really
16:02:35 <Herkamire> onetom: only under the emulator, which is not terribly usable
16:02:42 <Herkamire> slow as hell, and you can't save
16:03:01 <Herkamire> I'll release a demo when I code the output buffering
16:03:21 <Herkamire> (I'm hoping a lot of the slowness is caused by syscall overhead from EMITing one char at a time)
16:03:25 <Herkamire> ok, I'm out. bbl
16:05:28 --- nick: tbw-dinner -> TheBlueWizard
16:05:50 <onetom> aham..
16:05:54 * TheBlueWizard is reading the dialogue
16:07:10 * TheBlueWizard sees das is advertising for jobs...if his situation at work has indeed gone south, he might ask
16:10:25 * slava contemplates adding r@ word
16:22:56 --- join: T0paz (jonny@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust217.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth
16:24:52 --- quit: Topaz (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:51:07 --- nick: das -> das-dinner
17:07:10 --- nick: das-dinner -> das
17:08:34 --- quit: T0paz ("Leaving")
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17:33:07 <kc5tja> greetings
17:34:15 <TheBlueWizard> kc5tja hiya
17:36:36 * kc5tja is going to try and get some coding in before work.
17:36:52 <slava> hi kc5tja!
17:37:04 <kc5tja> re slava
17:37:36 <das> Well, looks like my supper is ready...
17:37:42 --- nick: das -> das-dinner
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17:41:26 <slava> kc5tja, how's fts/forth?
17:41:27 <slava> hi saon
17:47:12 <saon> hey slava
17:49:24 <kc5tja> slava: As documented on th website.
17:49:50 * kc5tja is working to implement the PUBLIC: cross-compiler directive now.
17:50:21 <slava> PUBLIC: foo exports a primitive foo in cross-compiled image?
17:51:23 <kc5tja> It creates a dictionary entry in the compiled image for word 'foo', yes.
17:52:18 <kc5tja> Actually, it'll be used as follows: ' someWord PUBLIC: someWord
17:52:41 <slava> cool
17:52:53 <slava> i like the convention of suffixing : on words that read ahead
17:52:56 <kc5tja> This lets me rename words as appropriate.
18:17:22 --- quit: saon ("Leaving")
18:23:27 --- nick: das-dinner -> das
18:33:24 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...all bye!
18:33:27 <slava> hi das
18:33:40 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth
18:34:06 <das> hello slava
18:55:04 --- quit: imaginator ("later")
18:55:31 <slava> das, you do paid forth work?
18:55:52 <I440r> slava yea
18:56:02 <I440r> he works for the company i contracted to prior to this job
18:56:06 <I440r> they do satellite tracking stuff
18:56:10 <I440r> VERY cool shit!
18:56:15 <I440r> all in forth :P
18:56:21 <das> slava, yes, I get paid to do forth work.
18:56:37 <slava> that's very cool.
18:56:42 <slava> is it microcontroller stuff?
18:57:12 <das> some microntroller, some microprocessor, some DSP
19:15:24 * kc5tja wishes he could do Forth work.
19:16:58 <I440r> kc5 move to longview
19:17:09 <I440r> you might not have much trouble :))
19:18:19 <kc5tja> I think you underestimate how much trouble I'll have.
19:19:50 <das> I have several HAM friends here in Longview.
19:21:01 <I440r> kc5 if the company das works for has its hiring freeze lifted...
19:22:46 <kc5tja> My point is that Forth isn't a really sought-after skill.
19:23:44 <I440r> its not
19:23:50 <I440r> but THEY use it :)
19:37:11 <I440r> they being vertex rsi
19:37:16 <das> yep, we sure do use, have been for over 10 years. And we are still using it, on products being developed, and products yet to be developed.
19:37:54 <slava> got job openings? :)
19:38:30 <I440r> they have LOADS of openings that are currently closed 
19:38:39 <I440r> by a hiring freeze their previous owners put in place
19:39:26 <das> We've been trying to get job openings. There has been a freeze, but the aqusition of us by General Dynamics was just completed yesterday, so hopefully things will change.
19:40:00 <I440r> ya
19:40:11 <I440r> come monday your going to get an order to hire 500 new forth coders
19:40:13 <I440r> or more
19:40:35 <kc5tja> Hmmm...acquisitions usually aren't that good.
19:42:17 <das> I not been through many buy outs in places I've worked. (this is my third). The first 2 were not good.
20:01:24 --- join: madgarden (~madgarden@Toronto-HSE-ppp3706338.sympatico.ca) joined #forth
20:01:42 <kc5tja> re madgarden 
20:01:59 <das> I hung out there for a while last year in the Spring. Amoungst other things they are trying to replace the fimrware that is on PCI cards with forth. I'm suprised they don't visit #forth much. Then again, the guys I use to talk to are in Germany.
20:02:20 <das> In #openbios that is...
20:02:30 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth
20:02:44 <kc5tja> Well, the #forth group is also highly idealistic too, so it might be that our idealism is a turn-off for many people.
20:04:31 <madgarden> Hi kc5tja
20:04:47 <slava> hi
20:04:55 <madgarden> hi ya slava
20:05:04 <madgarden> Man, finally got back online.
20:05:54 <kc5tja> madgarden: Was wondering what happened to you.  :)
20:06:34 <das> well, gotta go... see ya'll later...
20:07:08 --- part: das left #forth
20:07:10 <madgarden> Heh. I just got back online in the last hour or so. Not quite sure what happened, but I simply couldn't connect to my ISP through the router. tried a couple different ones.
20:12:20 --- join: madgarden_ (~madgarden@Kitchener-HSE-ppp3576789.sympatico.ca) joined #forth
20:12:52 <madgarden_> OK, there's still a bit of a mystery going on here...
20:14:30 <madgarden_> Now why should one machine on the LAN be able to access the routers admin pages, and not another?
20:19:13 <kc5tja> Any kind of MAC-address filtration configured?
20:19:31 <I440r> lol my next door neighbour is being arrested lol
20:19:57 <I440r> he drove down the road like a bat out of hell with a cop follwing him (sirens blaring) and parked in huis driveway
20:20:04 <kc5tja> DAMN I love TDD.
20:20:09 <I440r> the cop pulled over, jumped out and ran after him heh
20:20:11 <kc5tja> Combined with ASMs, it's damn powerful
20:21:05 <madgarden_> kc5tja, nope. None that I configured anyway. :P
20:21:57 <tathi> ok, TDD = test-driven development, but what's an ASM?
20:22:02 <tathi> oh.
20:22:08 <tathi> Abstract State Machine ?
20:23:08 <slava> I440r, lol
20:25:05 <kc5tja> tathi: Yep.
20:25:56 <tathi> kc5tja: so...what are you doing?
20:26:09 <tathi> working on FTS/Forth?
20:26:44 <madgarden_> Gah brb...
20:26:50 --- quit: madgarden_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:28:23 <I440r> cop is out there now with neighbour cuffed and in the back seat - cop is prolly doing the paperwork :/
20:30:15 <slava> I440r, hehe
20:30:40 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:31:11 <I440r> neighbors are gay and they were having a domestic last i knew... and one of em was a bit "high" i believe
20:31:19 <I440r> mite be the one being arrested
20:31:41 <kc5tja> tathi: Yep.  Adding the PUBLIC: word that has been missing for so long.
20:31:55 --- join: madgarden (~madgarden@Kitchener-HSE-ppp3576789.sympatico.ca) joined #forth
20:32:18 <kc5tja> tathi: So you can write code like this, for example:
20:32:26 <kc5tja> tathi: ,: + +, ;,
20:32:32 <kc5tja> tathi: ' + PUBLIC: +
20:32:48 <kc5tja> where the latter line "exposes" the cross-compiled implementation of + under the name + in the target image.
20:33:26 <tathi> right
20:34:14 --- join: madgarden_ (~madgarden@Kitchener-HSE-ppp3576660.sympatico.ca) joined #forth
20:42:11 <kc5tja> OK, PUBLIC: has been implemented and has been unit tested.  It works.
20:42:47 <kc5tja> What's needed next is two things: one is some means of selecting between Forth and Compiler vocabularies (I'll do that later though), and more importantly, some means of bundling said database image into the output executable.
20:43:08 --- quit: madgarden_ ("*frotz*")
20:46:34 <Sonarman> what are you using ASMs for, kc5tja?
20:51:53 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:52:13 * slava trims cfactor kernel; its smaller by 500 lines of code, or 6kb of binary
20:53:25 <I440r> cool
20:53:34 <I440r> rm -rf deadwood :)
20:55:42 --- join: madgarden (~madgarden@Kitchener-HSE-ppp3576660.sympatico.ca) joined #forth
20:56:06 <madgarden> OK, this is *really* freaking pissing me off.
20:56:44 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:02:22 <slava> I440r, i rewrote that 500 lines of C code in factor and its like 98 lines
21:03:42 <I440r> :)
21:20:01 <kc5tja> Sonarman: I'm using ASMs more as a means of refining what it is that I actually want.
21:21:42 <kc5tja> I have ideas, I model them using ASMs on paper.
21:21:44 <Sonarman> cool
21:22:08 <kc5tja> I work through the model, and I find invariants (things that are always true abuot the system), and from those, interpolate other properties of the system.
21:23:06 <kc5tja> Based on those properties, I can either refine the model to match my needs more closely, or use the ASM itself as a specification document, from which unit tests are derived from.
21:23:10 <slava> http://paste.lisp.org/display/2705
21:23:16 <kc5tja> The result: bug-free software within the context of what I'm trying to accomplish.
21:23:18 <slava> i rewrote my ratio and complex number math in factor
21:28:09 <kc5tja> slava: Cool.  :)
21:28:12 <kc5tja> Forth is good like that.
21:28:33 <kc5tja> Well, I should say, "Concatenative languages are good like that," because it's obviously not restricted to just Forth.
21:28:37 <kc5tja> But you know what I mean.
21:28:37 <kc5tja> :)
21:30:05 <kc5tja> Anyway, I need to get to work.  I'll be back online within an hour or so.  Maybe sooner if it's a quiet night.
21:35:08 <I440r> tathi might have discovered another intel pentium bug in their divide instructions lol
21:35:20 <I440r> either that or very very serious typo in their manuals
21:50:18 --- join: madgarden (~madgarden@Kitchener-HSE-ppp3575833.sympatico.ca) joined #forth
21:52:49 <slava> woohoo - a minor tweak to the type checking code makes some benchmarks 2x faster
21:54:54 <I440r> hehe
21:55:02 <I440r> now THATS a valid use for a benchmark
21:55:12 <I440r> run benchmark. tewak code. run benchmark
21:55:25 <slava> since EVERYTHING does type checking this is a good thing
21:55:27 <I440r> well. therse the FUN aspect of doing benchmarks too lol
21:55:28 <tathi> err...what else would you do with a benchmark?
21:55:40 <I440r> compare your apples to my oranges!
21:55:56 <tathi> oh.
21:56:06 * tathi has never liked oranges much anyways :P
22:19:40 <I440r> :)
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22:36:58 --- quit: tathi ("*poof*")
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22:37:58 --- quit: Herkamire ("trying herkforthos, then to bed!")
22:40:40 <kc5tja> back -- at work.
22:41:16 <kc5tja> Oranges ROCK.  Apples are too expensive.  :)
22:41:32 <madgarden> Paula Red apples are quite cheap, and tasty too.
22:43:38 <kc5tja> madgarden: I generally don't like the taste of apples at all, except if they're cooked.
22:43:48 <kc5tja> Apple juice, OTOH, is a knock-out favorite of mine.
22:44:05 <madgarden> KO by apple juice... I'd like to see that.
22:44:28 <kc5tja> madgarden: Drink half a gallon of apple juice.  Wait 15 minutes.  You'll be suffering.  :)
22:44:59 <madgarden> Heh.
22:45:58 <Sonarman> you guys have made me hungry
22:46:07 <kc5tja> Heheh
22:46:39 <madgarden> kc5tja, started back at judo today.
22:46:49 <kc5tja> Cool.  :)
22:51:19 <madgarden> It's just the 1-hour family class, but it's still something. Just wish my knee wasn't busted.
22:51:31 * kc5tja nods
22:51:32 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:53:30 <kc5tja> madgarden: The real question is, though, does it feel good to be back?
22:56:56 --- quit: I440r_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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23:08:05 <madgarden> Yea! It's always fun doing throws and wrasslin' around. ;)
23:10:24 <kc5tja> :)
23:10:49 * kc5tja probably couldn't take judo -- the throws that are performed are a bit too arm-breaky for me.
23:11:17 <madgarden> Hmm... arm-breaky? What do you mean?
23:12:42 <kc5tja> Judo's shihonage, for example, goes against the natural joint motion.  Unless uke is *really* on their toes at all times (and I'm usually not, I have to admit), the nage can really hurt the uke if they continue the throw at full pace.
23:16:11 <madgarden> Ahh. Well, yes a lot of the throws could double as locks/breaks as well. I don't think that's a bad thing, though. ;)
23:17:24 <kc5tja> It is for people who are as slow as I am.
23:17:58 <madgarden> I mostly looking at it from the self-defense angle.
23:18:50 <kc5tja> madgarden: But as nage, you must also be uke.  :)
23:19:11 <kc5tja> Hence, I cannot take judo even if I wanted too -- my body just isn't engineered for that kind of (ab)use.
23:19:47 <madgarden> Well, until you get your titanium body replacement, anyway.
23:19:55 <madgarden> I'm still saving up.
23:20:02 <kc5tja> I'm sure that if I were to start out as a complete whitebelt, I'll eventually work my way up.  But I like Aikido -- it's very comfortable.  :)
23:20:40 <madgarden> Yea, I'd probably train in tai chi for similar reasons.
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.09.18