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08:26:08 <qFox> hm this book i'm reading gave me an interesting idea. its "understanding cognitive science", its actually quite hard to read (for me), as it is english and constantly uses "difficult" words i'm really not used to. anyways, at some point it talks about words and that the human race even though it has a limited set of "real" words (english about 140.000), one could create an unlimited amount of proper sentences (gramatically).
08:26:29 <qFox> and each of these sentences would be understandable by any other human being, that speaks the language of course.
08:27:16 <qFox> at some point (not right now) i'm going to attempt to create a program that will build all these sentences, only limited by word-length per sentence.
08:27:36 <qFox> and of course the rules of building a proper sentence
08:28:01 <qFox> (i'm not quite sure whether that is as difficult as i'm imagining it will be)
08:28:50 <Herkamire> they can be infinitely long
08:29:02 <Herkamire> ... and then ... and then ... and then ... and then
08:29:10 * Tomasu is away: for now
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08:31:09 * crc added Herkforth and Factor to the forthfreak.net wiki
08:34:07 <qFox> Herkamire> which is why i added the condition, limited by word-length per sentence
08:36:24 <Herkamire> qFox: what's that mean?
08:36:25 <qFox> i guess the toughest part would become parsing the database of words and classifying each word as a certain type of grammatical word (who's english names i really dont know)
08:36:33 <Herkamire> crc: thanks :)
08:36:41 <qFox> well, like a sentence can never exceed 5 words for instance
08:36:48 <qFox> i have to do this.
08:36:57 <Herkamire> ahh
08:37:06 <crc> Herkamire: how's the native version of Herkforth going?
08:37:14 <qFox> that will, in the end, cause a limitation to the number of sentences
08:37:22 <qFox> its very much like my solving of games really
08:37:36 <qFox> which is probably why the idea popped up to begin with :p
08:37:51 <Herkamire> crc: haven't worked on it much. I went off on a tangent and added my last color (which puts a pointer to the dictionary entry on the stack (much like ' (tic)))
08:38:04 <crc> ok, cool :-)
08:38:19 <Herkamire> that'll hopefully make it easy to switch back and forth from OF to linux
08:40:14 <crc> ok
08:40:37 <crc> Why did you change the kernel name from forth0 to forth000?
08:43:09 <Herkamire> because after forth9 it would go to forth: and forth; and forth? and that's awefully annoying on the cmd line
08:43:32 <crc> Ok, that's a good reason
08:43:43 <Herkamire> since changing it, I've been above forth100
08:44:01 <Herkamire> I'm having less and less use for the ascii representation.
08:44:08 <qFox> it would be pretty forth to do it like that though, in some way
08:44:18 <Herkamire> now I pretty much export when I want to commit another revision for revision control
08:44:23 <qFox> in the spirit of naming conventions (eg, there is no limit)
08:44:59 <Herkamire> my code just adds one to the ent.
08:45:02 <Herkamire> end
08:45:11 <crc> :-)
08:45:15 <Herkamire> if you nammed it forth00000 then you could save
08:45:20 <Herkamire> many many times
08:45:33 <Herkamire> 99999 or something
08:46:06 <crc> I see
08:47:29 * crc always renames the most recently saved file to 'forth0' :-)
08:47:55 <qFox> i actually save the document i work with with no version
08:48:07 <qFox> and the backups of that working document get a version
08:48:54 * crc prefers persistant data
08:49:32 <crc> I have a scheme where an original is saved to one area of the hard drive, and the current version is in a different area. When you 'save', it replaces the original.
08:49:49 <crc> The most recent version is the one you work on directly
08:49:58 * crc needs a better editor though
08:51:19 <qFox> well, i would prefer that whenever i "save", the editor would save the current document (update the file), as well as creating a copy and attaching a version to the filename (in a different directory or whatever)
08:51:30 <crc> My current one is a cryptic, 12-line block editor
08:51:52 <crc> I should look into designing a versioning scheme for RetroForth/Native
08:54:57 * crc will return; have to wash clothes
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08:56:01 <Herkamire> I keep a bunch of versions around because 1) it's easy 2) when something goes wrong, I just try the next older one, if that doesn't work than the next older.
08:56:30 <Herkamire> this makes me fairly confident that I won't loose much work
08:57:00 <Herkamire> and really the only likely reason why one system wouldn't start up is if I've been screwing with the bootstrapping processes
08:57:05 <qFox> i either conciously make a backup whenever i'm going to change something radical, or forget to do so for being too eager to try :p
08:57:17 <qFox> try the new idea at that time, i mean
09:02:11 <Herkamire> I can't just save over the previous version, because sometimes I create versions that don't work
09:02:40 <Herkamire> and if it doesn't run, then I can't fix it
09:04:35 <qFox> i did mean a seperate file
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10:03:42 * Tomasu is away: for real
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10:27:12 <Herkamire> anybody know how to get firefox not to drop down that pulldown when you start typing a URL in the location field?
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11:41:38 <Herkamire> heh.
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11:41:59 <Herkamire> I finished my work I had planned for today in less than an hour, and was thinking I should make more money than that
11:42:26 <Herkamire> check my email, and there's another job. from a client I haven't heard from in... possibly over a year
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12:26:38 <arke|school> hi
12:32:32 <mur_> hello school
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12:44:30 <arke|school> hi solar_angel  :)
12:44:41 <solar_angel> hi :)
12:45:32 <arke|school> long time no see?
12:45:44 <solar_angel> indeed.
12:45:48 <solar_angel> been busy.
12:45:59 <solar_angel> and haven't done much FORTH in a while now
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13:11:06 * Tomasu is away: bite me
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13:48:36 <Robert> Did you finish your system?
13:49:13 <solar_angel> me?
13:49:19 <Robert> Yes, you
13:49:24 <solar_angel> i'm writing a non-forth-based OS now, actually
13:49:28 <solar_angel> internally multithreaded
13:49:45 <Robert> Did you give up the Forth system?
13:50:39 <solar_angel> not really, no
13:50:42 <solar_angel> i'm porting it to 16 bit
13:50:50 <solar_angel> and i use it for driver testing
13:50:52 <solar_angel> the 32-bit version, that is
13:50:59 <Robert> Why 16-bit?
13:51:23 <solar_angel> a bunch of reasons
13:51:29 <solar_angel> it's designed to run on embedded machines, though
13:51:40 <Robert> 16-bit x86?
13:52:06 <solar_angel> yep
13:52:11 <solar_angel> for now, anyway
13:52:14 <Robert> I thought those were dying
13:52:20 <solar_angel> although again, it's relatively portable.
13:52:20 <solar_angel> not necessarily
13:52:28 <solar_angel> it's plenty easy to get 16-bit embedded boards
13:52:34 <solar_angel> 8088 SBC's are cheap
13:52:42 <solar_angel> and Z80's are very similar architectures
13:52:51 <Robert> Cool. How cheap?
13:53:09 <solar_angel> depends where you get them
13:53:11 <solar_angel> don't know offhand
13:53:27 <Robert> OK, nevermind then
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14:51:10 <slava> hi
14:51:47 <slava> solar_angel, what language is the new OS in?
14:51:58 <slava> (I'm guessing asm?)
14:52:51 <solar_angel> C mostly
14:52:56 <solar_angel> some assembly
14:53:06 <slava> isn't 16-bit C a pain?
14:53:33 <solar_angel> who said anything about 16-bit?
14:53:55 <slava> a few lines above
14:53:56 <slava> <solar_angel> i'm porting it to 16 bit
14:54:27 <solar_angel> slava - that was my FORTH-based OS
14:54:38 <solar_angel> i have more than one OS
14:54:44 <slava> what kind of API does this OS have? unixy?
14:54:56 <solar_angel> relatively original.
14:55:03 <slava> highlights?
14:55:16 <slava> like what are the chief abstractions offered etc?
14:55:49 <solar_angel> internally multithreaded kernel.
14:56:39 <slava> what are the tasks running in a typical system?
14:56:49 <slava> is each kerenl subsystem a task?
14:58:14 <solar_angel> depends on the system.
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15:01:39 <slava> hi saon
15:01:44 <saon> hello
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15:44:29 <arke> hi
15:44:49 <wossname> hello arke
15:45:35 <arke> hi wossname 
15:45:36 <arke> :)
15:45:53 <wossname> sup
15:47:31 <arke> nothing ^_^
15:48:11 <wossname> :o
15:48:41 <wossname> why not in ypn??! :(
15:50:02 <wossname> ah, nm. ypn is just for llamers anyway O_O
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15:55:09 <arke> hi kc5tja :)
15:55:16 <kc5tja> re
15:55:26 <arke> kc5tja: when would I want to start with the block words?
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15:55:34 <arke> or, block favility, or whatever
15:55:39 <arke> you know what I mean :)
15:55:46 <kc5tja> favility?
15:55:55 <kc5tja> :)
15:56:11 <kc5tja> Whenever you want -- it's pretty orthogonal to what I'm working on now.
15:57:02 <arke> I'm assuming you want a PygmyForth style block interface?
15:57:06 <kc5tja> The input stream parser can handle proper nesting of input sources if you're careful to preserve all the state associated with it.
15:57:26 <kc5tja> That would probably be cool to have, but it's not strictly necessary either.
15:57:43 <kc5tja> If you feel we should go for that approach, then by all means... :)
15:57:44 <arke> I'll figure out something :)
15:57:47 <arke> :)
15:57:47 <kc5tja> I certainly won't complain.
15:57:55 <arke> whats your naming convention?
15:58:01 <arke> same-caps or diferent-caps?
15:58:21 <kc5tja> Depends on the context.
15:58:45 <kc5tja> Best approach is to just review the existing sources and go from there.  So far, most things have been all lower-case letters.
15:59:02 <arke> cool.
15:59:23 <arke> This is gonna be nice :)
15:59:42 <arke> kc5tja: should I cache files or read blocks as necessary? Or cache 8 blocks at a time? Or what would you prefer?
16:00:13 <kc5tja> Cache files?  What do you mean by that?
16:00:18 <kc5tja> Personally I don't even care.  :)
16:00:22 <arke> hehe
16:00:25 <kc5tja> I/we can change things later if need be.
16:00:46 <arke> a cache window seems the most appropriate thing. I believe pygmy does it that way.
16:00:51 * arke will look over the sources now
16:00:55 <kc5tja> Cache window?
16:01:10 <kc5tja> Last I checked, Pygmy just dealt with individual 1K chunks, and managed them as a cache.
16:01:13 <arke> kc5tja: erm, thats terminology I made up :)
16:01:22 <arke> kc5tja: hrm. 
16:01:38 <arke> kc5tja: oh, thats right. Windows was doing the caching (duh)
16:02:02 <kc5tja> But whatever -- Linux deals best when working with 4KB chunks, so pre-fetching 4 blocks at a time may be a nice thing to do.  I don't know.
16:02:28 <arke> kc5tja: okies :)
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22:22:41 <arke> hi
22:23:40 <Herkamire> hi
22:27:26 <arke> :)
22:27:28 <arke> whats up?
22:34:25 <kc5tja> re folx0rs.
22:34:45 <arke> hi kc5tja
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22:36:35 <Serg_penguin> hi !
22:36:40 <kc5tja> Greetings
22:36:42 * kc5tja is at work.
22:36:48 <kc5tja> Just "starting my day."
22:36:54 <Serg_penguin> linux support ?
22:37:11 <kc5tja> Tech support in general, but "Linux" is officially in my title.  :)
22:37:16 <kc5tja> Tier 1 Linux Technical Support.  :)
22:37:40 <Serg_penguin> any stupidity collections at helpdesk ?
22:38:23 <kc5tja> Every day.
22:38:55 <Serg_penguin> i mean, do your folks log the greatest hits ?
22:40:57 <kc5tja> Oh, no, we don't.
22:40:59 <kc5tja> Which is a pity.
22:41:35 <Serg_penguin> heh, price of the cheapest 'semi-pro' digicam, canon A-60, dropped below my monthly pay for room
22:41:49 <Serg_penguin> really pity !
22:41:58 <kc5tja> I think the best I've experienced so far working at this job is a professional webmaster who FTPed his website's index.html file to the directory, and wondered why none of his links was working.  After asking him if he bothered to upload the remainder of the site, he was like, "WHAT?  I have to upload the rest of my site files TOO?!"
22:42:04 <kc5tja> Moron.
22:42:12 <arke> HAHA
22:42:18 <Serg_penguin> yeah !
22:42:31 <kc5tja> These folks are out there, designing professional websites for companies.  
22:42:33 * kc5tja sighs
22:43:36 <Serg_penguin> pro eye-candy makers ? eye-candy SUCKS, bletch !
22:45:17 <Serg_penguin> ha-ha-ha, open http://www.asus.com.tw/ w/o pictures ;((
22:45:32 <Serg_penguin> they call self 'pro' ??? i doubt
22:48:52 <Herkamire> technical skill doesn't sell to big companies
22:49:41 <Herkamire> weird stuff
22:49:47 <Serg_penguin> here in RU, "recoil" does sell the most
22:50:06 <Herkamire> I thought most of the stuff my boss did to get customers and impress them and stuff was bizare.
22:50:09 <Herkamire> but it worked.
22:50:46 <Herkamire> he got enough customers to pay all of us.
22:50:50 <kc5tja> Professional website design can involve decent looking eye candy.  I don't mind *some* eye candy.  But I have to admit, I *like* Herkamire's website.
22:51:03 <Herkamire> :)
22:51:10 <kc5tja> Simple, clean, to the point, and just enough eye candy to add a hint of uniqueness of design.  I love it.
22:51:15 <kc5tja> I wish I could have thought of it myself.
22:51:26 <Herkamire> thanks :)
22:51:36 <Herkamire> yeah, most people don't get elegence of design
22:51:45 <Herkamire> most people like it when they see it.
22:51:52 <kc5tja> :)
22:51:57 <Serg_penguin> url?
22:52:01 <Herkamire> but when they think of how to make something look, they can't get them silves to keep it simple
22:52:04 <Herkamire> herkamire.com
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22:52:24 <kc5tja> silves -- Dvorak user.  :D
22:52:38 <kc5tja> Speaking of which, I really should get to designing that Dvorak/QWERTY kit.
22:52:48 <Herkamire> kit?
22:52:52 <kc5tja> I am in immediate need of alternative sources of income.
22:53:06 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Well, since the Kestrel isn't going anywhere for a while, I figured I'd cut back on the scale a bit.
22:53:22 <Herkamire> I used a paperclip
22:53:34 <kc5tja> My plan is to build a simple circuit that sits between the keyboard and a PC.  It's job is to convert scancodes on the fly, between Dvorak and QWERTY layouts, without involving the host OS at all.
22:53:56 <Herkamire> kc5tja: what's the "silves" thing?
22:54:05 <kc5tja> Herkamire: That's what you typed.  :)
22:54:07 <Herkamire> oh
22:54:12 <Herkamire> themselves
22:54:36 <Herkamire> don't see how that's dvorak. I figure it's dyslexia :)
22:54:58 <kc5tja> I'm thinking that I and E were next to each other.
22:55:07 <Serg_penguin> Herkamire: nice 
22:55:10 <Herkamire> kc5tja: it would need a switch that would put it back to querty
22:55:35 <Herkamire> no, there's a U between them. home row: aoeuidhtns-
22:55:45 <Serg_penguin> Herkamire: but i would center this
22:55:48 <kc5tja> Herkamire: That was the plan -- you'd be able to change the mapping hot too.
22:56:26 <Herkamire> Serg_penguin: afaik every way to center on the canvas is depricated
22:56:36 <Herkamire> they might fix that it CSS3 or something
22:56:52 <Herkamire> kc5tja: that would be very cool
22:57:01 <Herkamire> kc5tja: how cheap do you think it could be?
22:57:13 <Serg_penguin> <body style="margin-left: 15%; margin-right: 15%">
22:57:24 <Serg_penguin> i use this
22:57:31 <Herkamire> 15% of what?
22:57:34 <kc5tja> unknown at this time.
22:57:45 <Herkamire> kc5tja: it'd probably need to have a long cord on it
22:57:55 <Serg_penguin> 15% of surrounding box = of browser window
22:58:24 <Serg_penguin> l00k at cryptomancer.narod.ru
22:58:25 <Herkamire> I though I read that the body is the toplevel element
22:58:31 <Herkamire> it doesn't enherit from anything
22:58:50 <Herkamire> although I think some browsers do make it inherit from the window
22:59:08 <Serg_penguin> so, <div id="content" style="...">
23:01:14 <Herkamire> that page is not valid xhtml
23:02:17 <Serg_penguin> what page - my site ? it is not claimed to be
23:03:02 <Serg_penguin> it is auto generated by Microsoft XML from documents what are found by MsXML to be well-formed
23:03:44 <Herkamire> it's not a valid xml file either
23:03:55 <Herkamire> and it's not even vaguely close to being valid xhtml
23:04:19 <Herkamire> it's not even close to valid xml either
23:04:26 <Herkamire> ton's of unquoted attributes
23:04:36 <Herkamire> half the tags are uppercase.
23:04:49 <Herkamire> I validated the page with w3c.org validator, and it found 65 errors.
23:05:09 <kc5tja> Herkamire, I was going to build it with two PS/2 connectors on it.  You would be responsible for finding suitable cords for it.
23:05:31 <Serg_penguin> where is any unquoted attribute ???
23:06:21 <Herkamire> what the??? there's tons of close tags after </HTML>
23:07:13 <Herkamire> kc5tja: too bad you can't unplug normal keyboard cords from the keyboard, stick your thing in right there, and run that cord to the box
23:08:02 <Serg_penguin> Herkamire: after </html>, advert crap is auto-added by free hosting
23:08:06 <Herkamire> Serg_penguin: I know I could get my design to be centered, but I'd rather be compliant with vaguely recent web standards.
23:08:35 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Sure you can.
23:08:39 <kc5tja> Why can't you?
23:08:49 <kc5tja> You lose your key repeat rate information, but other than that...
23:09:29 <Herkamire> Serg_penguin: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fcryptomancer.narod.ru%2F&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=XHTML+1.0+Strict
23:10:06 <Herkamire> kc5tja: I mean yank the cord out of the back of the keyboard
23:10:22 <Herkamire> and stick your divice directly into the keyboard.
23:11:37 <kc5tja> Herkamire: OOooh.  Yeah.
23:11:39 <Herkamire> seems to me the only place you could stick your device without buing an additional cord, would be directly into the back of the PC. which for most people would be a most inconvenient place to access a switch
23:11:47 <Serg_penguin> Herkamire: i am not so fixed on standarts and validity. I just test the thing in latest IE, Mozilla and Opera, and if it does pass - it's OK
23:12:00 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Which is why I'm not going to do it.
23:12:23 <Herkamire> Serg_penguin: yeah, it's that attitude that makes it impossible to write a freaking browser
23:12:44 <Herkamire> kc5tja: not doing what? the switch?
23:13:37 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Not at the back of the PC, no.  This will be a device that requires two separate cables: one provided by the keyboard itself, and one you need to purchase somehow to plug it into the PC.  (Or I can hack a keyboard extension cable or something.)
23:14:21 <Serg_penguin> Herkamire: so what software will generate valid XHTML from well-formed XML ?
23:14:22 <Herkamire> right
23:14:37 <Herkamire> Serg_penguin: beats me.
23:14:41 <Herkamire> I can't stand xml
23:14:48 <Serg_penguin> ??
23:15:18 <kc5tja> Herkamire: XHTML isn't that bad.  It makes for much cleaner HTML, in my opinion.
23:15:28 <Herkamire> just lovely to have a format that's hardly human readable or machine readable
23:15:43 <Herkamire> kc5tja: yeah, I also think it's an improvement
23:18:04 <Herkamire> speaking of switching querty/dvorak
23:18:12 <Herkamire> I should setup keys to switch again
23:18:38 <Herkamire> people actually attempt to use my computer every month or so
23:19:20 <Serg_penguin> Herkamire: i wonder why can't u switch in OS ?
23:22:02 <Herkamire> Serg_penguin: I can. I just have to set a key for it
23:22:37 <Herkamire> I'd much rather tell people "press F8" than tell them to type "xmodmap /home/jason/.Xmodmap.qw" in dvorak
23:23:20 <Serg_penguin> so make a script and tell them type "qwe" in Dvorak ;)
23:23:21 <arke> :)
23:23:34 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Hehehe :D
23:23:39 <Herkamire> heh :)
23:23:51 <kc5tja> I prefers to just flip a toggle switch, such that it works regardless of choice of operating system.
23:24:02 <Herkamire> I should make a script called aoeu that changes to querty, and asdf that changes to dvorak :) :)
23:24:10 <arke> Herkamire: :)
23:24:28 <Herkamire> rrrrr changing mod-maps screwed up my apple key
23:24:41 <Herkamire> now I can't switch desktops in ion
23:25:53 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Doh!
23:26:03 <kc5tja> See, you could avoid that completely with one of my kits.  ;D
23:26:11 <arke> ;)
23:26:17 <kc5tja> (although, to be fair, I wouldn't even know if it'd work at all with an Apple keyboard.)
23:28:05 <Herkamire> it's usb
23:28:50 <Herkamire>  huh. just restarted ion and now I can get around fine
23:29:34 <Herkamire> now if the #@(*$&# mozilla-launcher worked, I could have that key also open up a firefox window
23:29:53 <arke> F3 firefox
23:29:54 <arke> :)
23:30:05 <arke> ctrl-F3 firefox for me..
23:30:19 <Herkamire> I have ctrl-f2
23:30:29 <Herkamire> but it doesn't work if it's already running.
23:30:38 <Herkamire> it grinds for a while and then shows the stupid profile selection thing
23:31:53 <Herkamire> firefox can't seem to find the running version
23:32:08 <Herkamire> so I can't tell it to open a window
23:32:46 <Herkamire> but if you try to run another copy then it finds it and won't let you open another
23:33:03 <kc5tja> Herkamire: I've never had Fire* ever find a currently running instance of Fire*.  This includes Mozilla and even the old Netscape too.
23:33:05 <Herkamire> they're out to get me
23:33:22 <Herkamire> kc5tja: yeah, I don't really think it's ever worked for me.
23:33:28 <Herkamire> I don't understand why they don't fix it
23:33:31 <arke> mozilla does that for me, but nbot fox or netscape
23:33:50 <Herkamire> it really can't be that hard
23:34:48 <Herkamire> if [ -a /usr/lib/mozilla-firefox/pipe ]
23:34:49 <Herkamire> then
23:35:16 <Herkamire>     echo "new window" >> /usr/lib/mozilla-firefox/pipe
23:35:20 <Herkamire>     exit
23:35:21 <Herkamire> fi
23:35:37 <Herkamire> /usr/lib/mozilla-firefox/firefox-bin
23:35:43 <Herkamire> tada! I'm a genious
23:36:29 <Herkamire> or maybe that should be ~/.firefox/pipe
23:36:51 <Herkamire> whatever. I gotta get up and work in the morning
23:37:13 <Herkamire> I'm getting tired and griping about crappy software
23:37:56 <kc5tja> Herkamire: I would still think that the default firefox/firebird scripts would work out of the box though...
23:38:40 <Herkamire> kc5tja: they don't though
23:38:59 <Herkamire> I've looked through the launcher scripts.
23:39:15 <Herkamire> I've run firefox
23:39:27 <Herkamire> then run the command that's supposed to tell the running version to open a new window, and that fails.
23:39:53 <Herkamire> firefox-bin -e "openURL(...)" or something
23:40:04 <Herkamire> don't remember the command.
23:41:03 <Herkamire> anyway
23:41:04 --- quit: warpzero (Client Quit)
23:41:06 --- quit: Herkamire ("bed")
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.09.13